PDA

View Full Version : accurate range of standard weapons



cav da man
23-04-2006, 21:32
is there something somewhere that gives a rough guide to the accurate range for pulse rifles, bolters, lasguns ect... as in real life. How far away do you think a target would have to be before you hitting it is effectively down to luck rather than skill.
Yes i do know that youre skill with the weapon affects the accurate range obviously but i was just wondering what the general range is.
My guess for a bolter would be between 300-400m maybe more
Pule rifle would probly be able to fire farther not sure if it's anymore accurate though.
Go on i was hoping for a discussion or at least a clear answer.......Come on you know you want to. =D
yes just to save people trying to tell me things i already know, i have done live firing and do do so and i have been trained to use a rifle (even if it's rubbish) i know the accurate range of todays type weapons this is a speculation on the game weapons.

insaniak
23-04-2006, 21:58
Yes i do know that youre skill with the weapon affects the accurate range obviously but i was just wondering what the general range is.
It's also affected by what you're diong at the time.

When I was in the army, we generally shot on the range at 100, 200 and 300 meters (mostly 300), 300 meters being generally considered the maximum range worth actually taking a shot if you expect to hit what you are aiming at.

But there's a big difference between firing a rifle while laying down in your prime firing position on a controlled range, and firing while running hell-for-leather through an alien jungle with weird looking chaps in pointy helmets shooting back at you...


Fluff-wise, bolters are fairly innacurate at long range. I'd put their effective range at 100-200 meters tops.

Lasguns would really depend on how the 40k versions work. The proposed designs circulating these days for 'real world' lasguns have rather hideous recoil, which would affect the shooter's accuracy considerably. But they are designed (in 40K) as the standard assault rifle, so I'd put their effective range at 300m, although it would conceivably be more with a scope and bipod, assuming that the weapon was powerful enough to send a beam any further.

Dr.Clock
23-04-2006, 22:05
Bit of a strange question really...

You should realize that the basic weapons troopers carry are mostly 'rapid fire' which means that the effective range is reduced to allow more fire on the move. A standard bolter, for instance usually fires in four round bursts. Thus, the effective range is a bit of a moot point. These are not weapons designed with pinpoint accuracy under ideal conditions in mind, but rather rugged weapons designed to put many rounds in generally the right place under any conditions. Of course, the bolter (to take an example) could be modified for another role (see Deathwatch sniper model) but that does little to dispell the fact that the best way to use a bolter is to get ten guys together and get close enough that the range ceases to be an issue.

I'd guess, though, that a pulse rifle would fire accurately farther than bolters due to the energetic nature of the 'pulse' (less friction/deviance from original path)

Why do you ask?

Cheers,

The Good Doctor.

Hortwerth
23-04-2006, 23:11
I always thought of Bolter weapons as the prime morale-breakers, not precision weapons.

Come on, weapon that fires screaming and roaring rockets that explode moments after they penetrate armour? That's just horrific. The fact these rockets are flying wildly in some general direction and there's lots of them doesn't help at all.

Getz
23-04-2006, 23:22
But they're still more accurate in the hands of a Marine than a Laserbeam is in the hands of a Guarsdman :eyebrows:

If it helps any, an autogun (which has identical stats to a Lasgun) is supposed to be approximately equivalent to a modern Assault Rifle. Therefore the 24" range represents the typical combat range of such a weapon. If you'd expect to be taking ranged shots out to about 300m with an Assault rifle (don't ask me, I'm no soldier) then 24"=300m...

Except, of course, 40K uses an abstract ground scale.

Overlord Krycis
23-04-2006, 23:28
I haven't been able to find anything on the net as of yet, so this is all conjecture.
- I would imagine that the effective range of a Lasgun would be about the same as modern assault rifles as the 'slug'-based rifles in 40k are comparable to the lasgun, so about 150-250m to actually take down a target.
- A bolter is a tricky one...its bolts are about the size of a grenade and although rocket-propelled, dont have any fins or stablisers, so...~100m? This would fit in with its use as a moral killer...not only do you have a small rocket making your friends explode, you then have to deal with the huge charging Marines.
- Pulse Rifles use high energy pulses as the projectile, so I would imagine that htier range is only limited to how long it take for the charged pulse to dissapate, but as they are renowned for thier long range killing power I would imagine it would be somewhere between 300-400m. Mix in the Tau's keen eyesight and you have the effective equivalent of a low-power sniper.

damz451
24-04-2006, 00:19
i dont think accuracy really matters in the universe of 40k, all u need is about 200 guys lined up, as long as they dont hit the ground or aim towards the sky the chances are high that they will hit something

MadHamster
24-04-2006, 03:14
Due to the aiming stuff that marines have in their helmets+they are far superior in all combat aspects than the standart air cooled field trooper and that the bolter rounds are self stabilised by rotation(works quite well, so no need of fins at all) i would see the efective range somethin' around 400-500 metres(maximum kill range would be something around 4-6km or even more due to explosive nature of bolt).

For the lasgun, well there shouldn't be any problem with recoil, since light weights nothin'(well something but you wouldnť notice ;) )+no exit gasses, the problem is with sights, you would need very precisely set optical sights to hit something, since mechanical would be fairly useless when shooting on 200+meters. So i would set the efective range for lasgun 0,01-200 meters, with virtually endless range in open space, and horizon range in field conditions.

Pulse rifle....well freaks wet dream, thats all i have to say for this thing. :D :p

insaniak
24-04-2006, 04:21
For the lasgun, well there shouldn't be any problem with recoil, since light weights nothin'
Depends on the laser. Some experimental laser designs rely on accelerating gasses inside the weapon up a high velocity... which generates quite a bit of recoil.

Darkspear
24-04-2006, 05:50
i dont think accuracy really matters in the universe of 40k, all u need is about 200 guys lined up, as long as they dont hit the ground or aim towards the sky the chances are high that they will hit something

actually in the 40k universe, even if i am standing point blank in front of a guardsman, he will miss half of the time :)

anyway the 250m to 300m is the effective range no doubt as mentioned by the others(happy to know that quite a few of us share military experience :) ). Apparently 300m is a limit for the human eye(unless u r a sniper). however i admit BS4 fellows should have greater range. not to mention the aiming devices in the 40k world

Sybaronde
24-04-2006, 09:49
While it's hard to find the range of a bolter weapon or a lasgun, it's rather easy to find the height of a marine and Leman Russ (See Imperial Armour). From that, you can extrapolate on what an inch in game terms would translate to in real size distance. I warn you, though, the results are ridiculous.



Lasguns would really depend on how the 40k versions work. The proposed designs circulating these days for 'real world' lasguns have rather hideous recoil, which would affect the shooter's accuracy considerably. But they are designed (in 40K) as the standard assault rifle, so I'd put their effective range at 300m, although it would conceivably be more with a scope and bipod, assuming that the weapon was powerful enough to send a beam any further.

Unlike solid matter, lasers tend to move incredibly fast through most atmospheric conditions (even below water), with a relative energy loss. As for range, the Lasgun's reliability wears more over to laser energy and Guardsman's accuracy then anything else, seeing as light travels roughly 300,000 km/s.

Overlord Krycis
24-04-2006, 09:58
bolter rounds are self stabilised by rotation(works quite well, so no need of fins at all)


D'oh! I forgot about the rotational thing...thanks for pointing that out. Cant believe I forgot about that.:rolleyes:

Sybaronde
24-04-2006, 10:03
Notably, certain rockets do not require fins to stabilize themselves. Just refer to any of the space-delivery rocket the Soviets used.

neko
24-04-2006, 10:57
For the lasgun, well there shouldn't be any problem with recoil, since light weights nothin'(well something but you wouldnť notice ;) )+no exit gasses,
Light does indeed weigh nothing, but it does have momentum. It's momentum that causes recoil, so the lack of weight is a moot point.
The small momentum of a photon of light is countered by the sheer number of photons you'd need to actually do anything more that possibly blind your opponents (leaving the lasgun jokes aside for the moment), so it's still quite possible that lasguns have recoil worth worrying about.

Loricatus
24-04-2006, 15:53
While it's hard to find the range of a bolter weapon or a lasgun, it's rather easy to find the height of a marine and Leman Russ (See Imperial Armour). From that, you can extrapolate on what an inch in game terms would translate to in real size distance. I warn you, though, the results are ridiculous.

That's because 40k has no set scale per se, and the height and distance are not relational. They even pointed that out in a WD article a while back. The game mechanics on range and speed are designed to make sense on a standard 4x6 game board and not meant to be a direct translation like you might find in a historical wargame.

Ivan Stupidor
24-04-2006, 16:33
That's because 40k has no set scale per se, and the height and distance are not relational. They even pointed that out in a WD article a while back. The game mechanics on range and speed are designed to make sense on a standard 4x6 game board and not meant to be a direct translation like you might find in a historical wargame.

Heh. That reminds me of a comment in the Designer's Notes of the 5th ed. Fantasy rulebook about scale - if the ground scale was the same as the miniature scale, a longbow would have a range of 12 feet, as opposed to 30 inches. They suggested finding a parking lot of you wanted to play truescale games.

cav da man
24-04-2006, 17:07
well im not talking about how the distances translate, i just wondered that if you hypothetically had made these weapons would the accurate ranges be different
p.s. i never liked firing from prone position, tis annoying and you have to go down and get back up alot that and i always think "if only i was standin up id get a better view over that ledge" or sumthin

Sybaronde
24-04-2006, 18:06
That's because 40k has no set scale per se, and the height and distance are not relational. They even pointed that out in a WD article a while back. The game mechanics on range and speed are designed to make sense on a standard 4x6 game board and not meant to be a direct translation like you might find in a historical wargame.

Yeah, I know. It's the classic range abstraction. Even Flames of War has it.

MorningStar
24-04-2006, 18:33
The thing that seems to be forgotten by most people is that a lasgun would lose effectiveness in differant enviroments, ie thick fog or smoke, rain, anything else that can be thrown at it. And if a lasgun is a true laser it would almost be useless at long range, considering planets are round the beam would miss high. Because as we all know the further you shoot the higher you have to aim.

Zurai
24-04-2006, 20:02
That's only true of something that would fall as it flies. Laser beams would actually be incredibly accurate - if you see the object through the scope at the time you hit the trigger, it WILL hit. Speed of light + almost 0 dropoff gaurantees it.

This implies that all Guardsmen need serious eyework, or better scopes.

Getz
24-04-2006, 20:08
And if a lasgun is a true laser it would almost be useless at long range, considering planets are round the beam would miss high. Because as we all know the further you shoot the higher you have to aim.

That's not true. While it is true that the light beam travels in a straight line (actually it is deflected ever so slightly by gravity, but not in a manner significant to this discussion) and the earth is curved, this has no impact on aiming at all. If the target is hidden by the curvature of the earth then you couldn't see it to aim at it anyway. If you can see it, then the light beam will travel to it in a dead straight line irrespective of range. Simple as...

Obviously indirect fire is not possible with lasers, but otherwise if you can see it then you can hit it without need for correction of any sort - after all, the laser is moving along the exact same path that the light that reached your eye enabling you to see the target did...

Cresistauead
24-04-2006, 20:45
Hmm - I wouldn't take the maximum range approach to convert the distances.

A bit of background: Atleast where I come from, one of the most decisive factors of an effective infantry squad is something called "fire discipline". It means, when the squad opens fire from defensive positions, it does it simultaneously and in organized fashion at a range that is close enough to down targets in a quite rapid rate. This range is 70 m in most cases with mid caliber assault rifle with diopter sights.

I'd put this range at 12" in Wh40k scale. That is, 1" in game equals to five to six meters (or 19 feet, if you will).

Lame Duck
24-04-2006, 20:47
I wonder how many people around here didnt take GCSE science. And how us warseer folk really get carried away by these dicussions.

Anyway, what exactly is a pulse rifle, some sort of laser?

MorningStar
24-04-2006, 22:05
I'll have to agree with you Getz and retract my previous statement, but you do have to adjust for targets further off. It what my firearms instructor called kentucky windage, incase anyone is wondering, it is when you adjust your aiming point instead of adjusting the sights on your weapon. I would see alot of IG using this method instead of having to use to adjust your sights, seeing as its alot quicker.

Getz
24-04-2006, 22:27
I wonder how many people around here didnt take GCSE science...

Took GCSE Science? I taught GCSE Science a few years ago...

cav da man
24-04-2006, 22:29
Took GCSE Science? I taught GCSE Science a few years ago...

my my arn't we the clever one.
Im currently taking GCSE science (triple science coz im a smart ****), dno what all the fuss is about it's o so very boring. physics :cries:

Getz
24-04-2006, 22:30
my my arn't we the clever one.
Im currently taking GCSE science (triple science coz im a smart ****), dno what all the fuss is about it's o so very boring. physics :cries:

I should hope so, otherwise I just fluked the Degree... :(

MadHamster
25-04-2006, 06:51
Light does indeed weigh nothing, but it does have momentum. It's momentum that causes recoil, so the lack of weight is a moot point.
The small momentum of a photon of light is countered by the sheer number of photons you'd need to actually do anything more that possibly blind your opponents (leaving the lasgun jokes aside for the moment), so it's still quite possible that lasguns have recoil worth worrying about.

Oooops forgot about that sorry, Mea culpa :cries:


Anyway, what exactly is a pulse rifle, some sort of laser?

Probably some sort of MASER or somethin' like that, IMHO just a freaks wet dream ;)

Sybaronde
25-04-2006, 08:34
I'll have to agree with you Getz and retract my previous statement, but you do have to adjust for targets further off. It what my firearms instructor called kentucky windage, incase anyone is wondering, it is when you adjust your aiming point instead of adjusting the sights on your weapon. I would see alot of IG using this method instead of having to use to adjust your sights, seeing as its alot quicker.

Uhm, lasers are miniscuously, if not non-affected by wind. The only thing the IG would need to do with their aims is to have it fixed in one direction all the time. After all, lasers are not solid as per projectiles. In any case, the only reason why soldiers would have to detract from this would probably be to 'lead the target with the crosshairs', depending upon reaction time in the weapon and so on. But basically, the margin for 'leading' targets wouldn't be so big as with classical firearms.




Anyway, what exactly is a pulse rifle, some sort of laser?

Pulse rifles are plasma based (whether that is charged gas, medical grade processed blood or free-form sub-atomic particles, I don't know).

insaniak
25-04-2006, 21:30
But basically, the margin for 'leading' targets wouldn't be so big as with classical firearms.
Unless the target is moving at the speed of light, or is several miles away, there should be no need to lead the target at all.

The other reason for adjusting your aim is to compensate for the fact that bullets don't move in a straight line vertically, so your aim needs to be adjusted up or down, depending on the distance to the target and your comparitive elevations... which likewise isn't a problem with laser weapons, which would go straight to the target.

Getz
25-04-2006, 22:03
Light takes, what? Eight minutes to get to the Earth from the sun... It cover a couple of miles in such an infitismally small space of time it may as well be instantaneous. In short, it would not be necessary to lead a target if it were 100 miles away, or even 1000 miles away and it would have to be moving at a relativistic speed for Deflection to become an issue...

Of course, in space combat such ranges and speeds may be regularly enountered (which is presumably why Lances hit on a 4+ in BFG ;)) but in ground level warfare, Lasers may as well be considered perfectly accurate...

Of course, the sights might be off...

cav da man
25-04-2006, 22:46
so the reason why IG miss half the time is because they're all either rubbish or some nasty person came and bent all their sights while stealing their left shoe

Overlord Krycis
25-04-2006, 23:18
Could be as simple as they cant keep the Lasgun perfectly steady...how hard do you think it is to keep a gun level while a couple o' million Tyranids charge towards you? Or aiming accurately while hundreds of Space Marines charge across the battlefield screaming battlecries and waving wacking great big chainswords? I would have a little problem with retaining correct bladder and intestinal function, never mind shooting the damn things.

insaniak
25-04-2006, 23:59
so the reason why IG miss half the time is because they're all either rubbish or some nasty person came and bent all their sights while stealing their left shoe
No, the reason IG miss half the time is the same reason most soldiers miss half the time...

In a firefight, you don't have a lot of time to stop running, take up a proper, balanced firing position, and spend any great amount of time aiming. 99% of your shots are just sent in the general direction of the enemy, to force him to keep his head down and stop shooting back at you while you're running for the next spot of cover. Actually hitting anyone is just a bonus.

Heinrich Jäger
26-04-2006, 04:09
Ok the reason that the IG man's BS is so low with such an acurate gun is because they have to get the target in the eye. For you see the lasgun doesn't kill the model it hits, it only blinds them, and then the blinded enemy accidently shoots his buddy or stabs him.

Donnie Darko
26-04-2006, 05:25
A few things. Laser weapons have an issue of beam scattering and refraction. So their effective range is entirely dependant on enviromental conditions.

Ex shooting at a target 100 m's away, over top of a puddle or body of water on a hot day. The denser air over the puddle (from evaporation) causes the beam to deflect, (even 1 degree is enough at distance). Even if the beam only moves 1-2" off target (before it deflects back into the dry air) this is enough to cause a miss.

Obviously fog, rain, snow, smoke, ect play havoc with the beam.

So realistically the Las weapons are limited in range to a standard fire arm (ie the accuracy of the user), and so 100m down to 30m for close/obscured fighting.

Bolters are the worst for range in game, as if you look at the round in the magazine to the barrel length, you'll notice that the barrle is actually the chamber. Thus when the round is fired, no spin can be imparted, so you get a sawed off musket. I'd say it's accurate at ranges upto and including 6-8", maybe 2' for a skilled user.

If one chose to lengthen the barrle, the rockety dynamics would give it a useful range of a pistol.

edited for grammar

cav da man
26-04-2006, 14:11
ah i didnt think about defraction..... i would like to point out that they arn't running all the time, say our hypothetical situation is not a battlefield situation ok it is on the range. Our user has been given time with all to correctly aim and line up himself/sights with the target lets say that he has exactly the same amount of experience with each weapon and is generally skilled in the use of all of the weapons. Ok so now i shall re ask the question what do you expect the accurate range of each weapon to be?
I don't want anybody telling me about battlefield situations or about being nervous or whatever other excuse.
Thank you
Cav