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View Full Version : Beastmen weapon: "The Brass Cleaver" , am I missing something?



The bearded one
30-01-2012, 03:19
I am writing up a beastmen list and was wandering through the items and came across "The brass cleaver". It says:

The Brass Cleaver confers a single bonus attack against each of the models in base contact with the bearer. In a challenge it confers one bonus attack and no more

I assume that just mean 'a bonus attack for each model in base contact' (and I'm just going for enemy models here, because I wanted to give this to a doombull and although RAW apparently no distinction is made between friendly and enemy, +12 attacks is a bit over the top for me and a bit douchy :D ), but I almost feel like I am missing something. The next item in the list and 5 points more expensive is +D3 attacks, while the brass cleaver already gives +2 or 3 by default except in challenges. Also the wording is nagging at me, "against each of the models". That "against" is bothering me as it almost sounds like I'd get an extra attack against that particular model if I direct an attack at him first..

am I missing something, am I reading it right: "a bonus attack for each (enemy?) model in basecontact."

Archis
30-01-2012, 03:34
You're reading it right, the +d3 attacks I believe takes both hands, so you can use the cleaver and a shield if you want.

The bearded one
30-01-2012, 04:13
Cool. If in base to base with 4 20mm models, he starts out with 9 attacks due to his frenzy ^^ Extra attacks from frenzy are added to the stat on the profile so that's capped at 10, but can you get higher than that with additional attacks from the magic weapon..? Mmhmm...

sulla
30-01-2012, 07:29
ASF sword is probably as good for getting consistently high numbers of hits vs rank and file. Axes of khorgor are handy too, if you don't mind losing the pip of armour save.

Rake
30-01-2012, 14:16
Well if you argued you get attacks for your own models I'd let you go ahead... then claim you MUST launch those attacks VS your own unit as it clearly states you get one attack against each model in base to base... :P

But yeah, its just a hands down better weapon than the +d3 attacks one.

ArtificerArmour
30-01-2012, 17:03
Stick it on a wargor on a chariot >:)

EnternalVoid
30-01-2012, 17:03
The thing to remember is that if something like a Hydra or chariot rams into him the brass cleaver only gives 1 extra attack. That is likely why the +d3 attack weapon is a little more, also if I remember right if you roll a 6 on number of attacks you get some other bonus i believe from the other weapon.

As far as I am aware extra attacks from weapons are capped at 10 like the stat, the only way I am aware of that can take you above 10 attacks is 'Random Attacks'. I believe this is part of the reason I tend to see more Doombulls with the ASF sword then the brass cleaver as if you add in the mutation that gives the Extra Initiative they get the rerolls against most things.


Stick it on a wargor on a chariot >:)

I have seen this before, though I think it was a beastlord. He turned his chariot sideways to 'threaten' a flank and got charged in his own. His opponent then found out that it gave him so many attacks and that the guy had massive armor save on top of the Ramhorn helm.

The bearded one
30-01-2012, 17:56
I was going for this build: Gorebull
BSB (someone needs to be!)
Gnarled hide
heavy armour
shield
ramhorn helm
brass cleaver

but I just noticed several seconds ago I'm over my limit as gifts and items come from the same allowance.. grumble..

What'd be a good build? I would prefer to keep the 1+ save with ramhorn helm. I guess I could instead replace the ramhorn helm with the dragonhelm and take the ASF sword, but then I'd only have initiative 4, and replacing gnarled hide for the +1 initiative gift leaves me with a 3+ save, which is too low for my taste. Alternatively I could drop the ramhorn helm ( :( ) but keep the brass cleaver and put in the dragonbane gem or somesuch in the remaining few points. I think I will settles on keeping gnarled hide and the ramhorn helm, and taking the sword of might instead, because at this point the jump from strenght 5 to 6 is beneficial most of the time.

This merits experimenting.

Scalebug
31-01-2012, 00:55
The whole max 10 on stats deal is a quagmire, but it won't be an issue with this weapon, as the bearer will still be at whatever he was at before, and just get to do an extra attack against each model in base contact. So a 4A beastlord in a chariot, with another +1 for Frenzy, flanked by Orcs (6 in contact) will still get to roll 11 dice against them without breaking any rules.

oldWitheredCorpse
31-01-2012, 12:18
I have seen this before, though I think it was a beastlord. He turned his chariot sideways to 'threaten' a flank and got charged in his own. His opponent then found out that it gave him so many attacks and that the guy had massive armor save on top of the Ramhorn helm.

If that had been the TK book, it would have sad "character on a 20 mm base on foot only". That's what they did to the destroyer anyway. The sweeping attack was deemed OP so the nerfed it to uselessness.

Makaber
31-01-2012, 13:06
If that had been the TK book, it would have sad "character on a 20 mm base on foot only". That's what they did to the destroyer anyway. The sweeping attack was deemed OP so the nerfed it to uselessness.

If I remember correctly, having to be on foot to use the Destroyer of Eternities was always a caveat, and it's not like they have characters of larger baes than 20mm in the Tomb Kings book either, so that point is kind of moot. The reason the Destroyer of Eternities was so good was because how it interacted with the Incantation based magic system, giving you an almost-guaranteed 6 kills a round. I don't feel it was too good by any stretch of the imagination, because only half of those wounds counted for CR, it was a great weapon so you hit last (a big deal in 7th), and it cost a massive 75 points, which didn't leave a whole lot for defense. Actually, there were only one other really good defensive item you could have with it (15 points for the transferral of a wound to another model on a 4+); remove that (which they did) and the Destroyer would look a lot less tempting.

I think it's a shame they had to ruin the Destroyer of Eternities. It was a signature weapon of the Tomb Kings, but now it's just too damn expensive for a sweep attack that isn't much better than attacking regularly, plus Heroic Killing Blow. I don't feel it was too good, but if they felt so it would have sufficed to look at one of the things that made it work as it did, instead of removing everything.

But I digress. The Brass Cleaver is an absolute bargain. In most cases you're getting 3 bonus attacks for the price of 1.5. No caveats!

Harwammer
31-01-2012, 14:50
Attacks from Brass Cleaver aren't added to your stat. You just get one free attack against each model in base contact.

Say your doombull (DB) was fighting a unit of halberdiers including an arclec, a captain and a wizard as below:

ACWH
.DB.

DB does not receive 4 attacks with which to do as he pleases (e.g. he can't allocate them all onto the wizard). No! Instead he effectively gets a free swing against each of the models touching him (oh la la)!

Remember the cap of 10 is on the Attacks stat, not on how many attacks can be made. If it adds to the stat it contributes to cap. If it doesn't it doesn't.

popisdead
31-01-2012, 21:59
Stick it on a wargor on a chariot >:)

Stick it on a scouting GBS and turn his chariot sideways after a combat reform, then cast Savage Beast of Horros on him.

Artinam
31-01-2012, 23:05
Aren't you capped at 10 attacks?

EnternalVoid
01-02-2012, 02:54
I was going for this build: Gorebull
BSB (someone needs to be!)
Gnarled hide
heavy armour
shield
ramhorn helm
brass cleaver

but I just noticed several seconds ago I'm over my limit as gifts and items come from the same allowance.. grumble..

I personally would keep the Ramhorn helm and Gnarled Hide. That should be Leave you 20 points of magical gear. I would either get;
1) a sword of might for extra Strength
2) Goretusk mutation plus either Dragonbane gem, Potion of Foolishness, Ironcurse Icon, or Luckstone
3) Other Trickster's Shard, Then the Dragonbane gem or Luckstone
4) Biting Blade, Luckstone or Dragonbane gem, and Irconcurse Icon or Potion of Foolishness
5) Berserker Sword

Option 1, 4, and 5 gives you a magic weapon, something useful if you encounter Ethereal troops and what not. Also number 5 makes it so you can't lose your frenzy even if for some reason you do lose combat, effectively letting you keep any extra attacks you build up. 2 and 3 though allow you to keep your parry save on top of some back up from other items. The goretusk mutation effectively gives you armor piercing to help with armor with out bumping up your strength. Between the Potion of Foolishness, dragonbane gem, Luckstone, and Ironcurse icon is is mostly to taste or need of your army. If you are worried about flaming attacks or lore of metal, Dragonbane gem. If you are in a unit that will be the target of warmachines, Ironcurse Icon. Want an extra attack that first turn on the charge, Potion of Foolishness. Luckstone is just an extra nice to reroll that one armor save you fail to get that extra chance of throwing it back.

herohammer
02-02-2012, 04:55
People, people lets not make up silly Doombull builds that probably don't work. Just use the broken brass cleaver build that does work.

GBS
Razorgor Chariot
LVL4 beasts or shadow
Brass Cleaver
Talisman of Preservation
Skin of Man
Jagged Dagger

1.Charge enemy core infantry. You are a scout so unless you go hard derp you won't get raped somewhere along the 12 inches or so between you and whatever unit of slaves or elves you are charging.
2.Get like 6 attacks and buff yourself with savage beast or debuff them with shadows; win combat off impact hits and lots o' attacks.
3. Reform so that you are flanked, now stuff over to the left and right can't see you to charge possibly and you get even more bonus attacks.
4. Every unsaved wound you cause gets turned into a power die that you can go "above" 12 dice with (12 max in pool at given time, not used per phase)
???
5.Profit!

EDIT-Damn beaten to it by popisdead...