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bama
30-01-2012, 21:33
I have a questiona dn I'm hoping that I can get an answer. I had a game this weekend where a unit of basic ogres with a Firebelly were charged by 10 crypt ghouls (what the large ghouls are called, I can't remember). Everyone in the combat was initiative 2 so everyone was going to strike at the same time. Now, I used my Firebelly and breathed into combat and did 2 wounds. His attacks caused an additional wound. My ogres caused 6 wounds. My opponent said that since the attacks were simultaneous that the regeneration did not go away and that he would get it against the ogres but not the the Firebelly. He claimed that the regeneration only went away after the attacks. We ended up playing it that he got regeneration against the bulls but not the Firebelly.

Should he have gotten regeneration at all?

Duke Ramulots
30-01-2012, 21:35
As far as I understand it, your freind did it right.

Agoz
30-01-2012, 21:38
yep, with simultaneous combat regeneration would stay, as the regeneration only goes away after wounds are caused by a flaming source, and the ogres are going at the same time as the firebelly, not after, this is why many ogre players take weapons with either ASF or bonus initiative on their firebellies.

Gooner
30-01-2012, 22:44
I actually believe there was a topic about this discussed at length. Regen is removed when you are wounded by fire. This happens before save rolls are made for any attacks striking at that I order. Thus you lose your regen before you have the chance to make the saves for any attacks. This makes sense to me and is the way it was decided it would work. I play it this way as it just doesn't make sense the other way to me.

vinny
31-01-2012, 04:50
so if i'm following this right you have regen until you suffer a wound from something with the fire rule and so from there onwards no longer get regen???

the Witch kings regent
31-01-2012, 05:16
i think its that you cant ake regeneration saves from fire but it doesnt remove it permanetly.

theunwantedbeing
31-01-2012, 09:30
i think its that you cant ake regeneration saves from fire but it doesnt remove it permanetly.

No regen vs flaming attacks.
If you take a wound from a flaming attack, you lose your regen save untill the end of that phase.
Regen is only lost at the end of the given inititative step, so non-flaming attacks made at the same time as flaming ones do still have to get by the regen.

So if you have flaming attacks, use an ASF or inititative boosting weapon so that you get allow non-flaming attacks to negate regen.

Cxt
31-01-2012, 14:04
Warseer:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?307173-Chaos-Trolls-Regeneration-question/page3&highlight=regen+regeneration+flaming

Uthuan (HighElves)
http://www.ulthuan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=35368

Both sides have very valid points. I would suggest reading both if you have the time and really care about this issue. It's not clear cut, and the rule writing is very poorly done. Enjoy.

bama
01-02-2012, 02:04
Appreciate the help.

EnternalVoid
02-02-2012, 03:33
I actually believe there was a topic about this discussed at length. Regen is removed when you are wounded by fire. This happens before save rolls are made for any attacks striking at that I order. Thus you lose your regen before you have the chance to make the saves for any attacks. This makes sense to me and is the way it was decided it would work. I play it this way as it just doesn't make sense the other way to me.

My group in turn thinks this way did not make sense.

Going to throw this out as a bit of a devil's advocate on this line of thought. So you roll to hit, roll to wound, and then they get to roll their saving throws. You don't get a regeneration roll against flaming attacks and if the wound gets through your unit loses it for the rest of the phase. By your logic all the to hits happen, all the to wounds happen, and then because one was flaming none get regen saves because that one caused a 'Wound'. Effectively your post is saying at this point regen is nullified. But what if the unit had armor or ward save? Those things discount wounds like regen does, so technically if you made an armor or ward save for the wound with flaming attacks it would have been stopped and discounted. So would you not have to get past the saving throw point of wounding before you justify that regeneration has been nullified, based on how saving throws work to wounds?

That is at least how are group decided it, that the flaming attack had to get through the saving throw point before it actually nullified regeneration for good, thus same initiative attacks let you have regen. Sadly I was the high elf using the flaming banner so it did not help me as much.

That all said, we all agreed that it would have been nice if GW had predicted this problem and put something in to classify it before hand. As it stands right now there is conflict in this rule.

Mid'ean
02-02-2012, 11:41
My group in turn thinks this way did not make sense.

Going to throw this out as a bit of a devil's advocate on this line of thought. So you roll to hit, roll to wound, and then they get to roll their saving throws. You don't get a regeneration roll against flaming attacks and if the wound gets through your unit loses it for the rest of the phase. By your logic all the to hits happen, all the to wounds happen, and then because one was flaming none get regen saves because that one caused a 'Wound'. Effectively your post is saying at this point regen is nullified. But what if the unit had armor or ward save? Those things discount wounds like regen does, so technically if you made an armor or ward save for the wound with flaming attacks it would have been stopped and discounted. So would you not have to get past the saving throw point of wounding before you justify that regeneration has been nullified, based on how saving throws work to wounds?

That is at least how are group decided it, that the flaming attack had to get through the saving throw point before it actually nullified regeneration for good, thus same initiative attacks let you have regen. Sadly I was the high elf using the flaming banner so it did not help me as much.

This is how we play it in our area also. Makes the most sense. This whole crap about "but you took a wound so have no regen but you saved the wound and now you have regen back" is a lot of bull chips!



That all said, we all agreed that it would have been nice if GW had predicted this problem and put something in to classify it before hand. As it stands right now there is conflict in this rule.

To be fair to GW the whole roll to hit, roll to wound, and then makes any saves has been in place since game came out. They didn't have this issue till things like this started to crop up and GW just hasn't gotten around to changing the basic format of rolling combat that they have had in place for over 20 years and was made to speed up the dice rolling process. Maybe they figured people would use common sense but just forgot that some people don't have any......:rolleyes: