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Spleen Hammer
01-02-2012, 16:19
Heya,
I'm currently reading the Horus Heresy series and it has inspired me to start a small contingent of CSMs. My initial thoughts are to go fluffy all the way because Abaddon seems to be The Man and I really dig the CSM terminators. With that having been said however, I'd like to actually win a game or two every now and again. On the upside of this, I've gotten one of my long-time buddies to consider 40k as well. Great! But (wait for it) he's considering the Grey Knights... :wtf:

So, here's my question: Am I doomed from inception here? I've read an awful lot on the interwebs and it would appear that the GKs are a tad on the unbalanced side. Needless to say I'll not be getting those Demon Princes as HQs anymore :shifty:.
Also, does CSM stand a chance with the GKs? If they do, then what would be some advice on playstyle and perhaps even some units to consider.

What I'd like to field is 2 units o' troops (regular flavored), 2 units of terminators, a Dreadnought and perhaps a defiler (after having been thouroughly converted, that's an ugly model there...) Throw in my Terminator Lord or Abaddon, maybe a LR and some Rhinos for rides and off we go. But when I look at that I see... bad things. With the GK anyway. Obviously I won't play my buddy all the time, but I'd like to be competitive at the least.

Thanks for all the input and I look forward to the coming discussion!
Spleen Hammer

Fawful
01-02-2012, 18:03
It really depends on how your friend will start playing grey knights, if he goes for all the best choices in the book you will likely suffer for it. The chaos codex just isn't that good at the moment. The good news is that they are rumoured to be updated quite soon and there is a new edition of the core rules coming in the summer. I'd say that you should start building and painting the units you like (though avoid the metal ones as they are likely to be updated) and adjust them to the rules later.

If you use the current codex and rules you will most likely fight an uphill battle as all of his troops ignore armour saves due to them having force weapons. The most realistic chance to beat him would probably lei in using long range fire power.

Plague marines, obliterators and daemon princes where the most popular units for competitive lists last time I looked though the last one took a hit due to the most recent faq.

Kevlar
01-02-2012, 18:20
Chaos doesn't have it that bad. Dual lash, max obliterators, and as many plasma guns as you can field will give him a rough time. 5 plasma guns in each chosen squad for instance.

Caitsidhe
01-02-2012, 18:29
Heya,
I'm currently reading the Horus Heresy series and it has inspired me to start a small contingent of CSMs. My initial thoughts are to go fluffy all the way because Abaddon seems to be The Man and I really dig the CSM terminators. With that having been said however, I'd like to actually win a game or two every now and again. On the upside of this, I've gotten one of my long-time buddies to consider 40k as well. Great! But (wait for it) he's considering the Grey Knights... :wtf:

Well... if you go fluffy all the way... sadly you won't win often. :) I'm sure the dice will be kind now and then and your buddy's newness to the game will make sure you win "a game or two now and then," but no... until we get a new codex... you aren't competitive with GK. A new book might put us in the fight but then again this is Games Workshop we are talking about so it might make us worse too.


So, here's my question: Am I doomed from inception here? I've read an awful lot on the interwebs and it would appear that the GKs are a tad on the unbalanced side. Needless to say I'll not be getting those Demon Princes as HQs anymore :shifty:.

Daemon Princes are kind of pointless against the GK.


Also, does CSM stand a chance with the GKs? If they do, then what would be some advice on playstyle and perhaps even some units to consider.

Yes. There are lists you can build which can fight them and have a "chance." It is still a hard road, but not an impossible one. I fight GK fairly frequently and I'm often able to get Minor and even the odd Major Victory over them. It should be stated that I am building specifically to beat them, however, and even so the margin for error on my part is very slim. My opponents, on the other hand, can make huge blunders and still recover from them easily due to the nature of the two coda. My advice (and take all such advice with a grain of salt) is to maximize potent AP shooting, minimize close combat to almost nothing, and stress mobility. This means you want to max out your Obliterators, take multiple small units in Rhinos with maximum Melta Guns (and this means Plague Marines), and back this up with Chosen in small, Melta Gun suicide squads and Rhinos. If you take the Lash (and you generally should as we have nothing better in HQ including poor Abaddon who gets his butt handed to him by GK) should be a stripped down Slannesh Sorcerer or two riding in Rhinos with Plague Marines.

The key point is to have maximum firepower that allows only cover or invulnerable saves combined with units that will vaporize 100% guaranteed on contact with the GK so you can shoot them again on the next turn. Ideally you move in a way that they cannot engage multiple units with a charge (and hopefully avoid their charge in the first place) and thus while you lose a small unit and a few guns, they attrition more on your next round of concentrated fire. You want to deny them points while being methodical about getting yours. Like I said, it isn't easy.


What I'd like to field is 2 units o' troops (regular flavored), 2 units of terminators, a Dreadnought and perhaps a defiler (after having been thouroughly converted, that's an ugly model there...) Throw in my Terminator Lord or Abaddon, maybe a LR and some Rhinos for rides and off we go. But when I look at that I see... bad things. With the GK anyway. Obviously I won't play my buddy all the time, but I'd like to be competitive at the least.

Yes. I see bad things too. You would get tabled nearly every time. :) I wouldn't even suggest a Dreadnought to someone fighting on-GK.

KingDeath
01-02-2012, 22:21
Heya,
I'm currently reading the Horus Heresy series and it has inspired me to start a small contingent of CSMs. My initial thoughts are to go fluffy all the way because Abaddon seems to be The Man and I really dig the CSM terminators. With that having been said however, I'd like to actually win a game or two every now and again. On the upside of this, I've gotten one of my long-time buddies to consider 40k as well. Great! But (wait for it) he's considering the Grey Knights... :wtf:

So, here's my question: Am I doomed from inception here? I've read an awful lot on the interwebs and it would appear that the GKs are a tad on the unbalanced side. Needless to say I'll not be getting those Demon Princes as HQs anymore :shifty:.
Also, does CSM stand a chance with the GKs? If they do, then what would be some advice on playstyle and perhaps even some units to consider.

If he is competent then you will need lots of luck to beat him. People write nonsense about how good lash of submission ( 2008 called, they want their crapy psychic powers back ) or Obliterators ( yay! 75 points for a lascanon that has to shoulder most of your long range fire because all other choices for that role are simply subpar )
are but the simple truth is that the Chaos dex is currenty quite weak. Against a more laid back opponent the book's solid troopchoices ( meaning plaque marines or standard marines, Khornflakes are situational, Noise marines are interesting but overcosted and Rubrics are just lol ), cheap rhinos and relatively good avaiability of meltas can still
earn you a victory but don't expect to win against a competent opponent with a modern codex.



What I'd like to field is 2 units o' troops (regular flavored), 2 units of terminators, a Dreadnought and perhaps a defiler (after having been thouroughly converted, that's an ugly model there...) Throw in my Terminator Lord or Abaddon, maybe a LR and some Rhinos for rides and off we go. But when I look at that I see... bad things. With the GK anyway. Obviously I won't play my buddy all the time, but I'd like to be competitive at the least.

Thanks for all the input and I look forward to the coming discussion!
Spleen Hammer

Dreads and Defilers are generaly a waste of points. Dreads are unreliable ( crazed ) and Defilers are huge, thinly armored targets which aren't particularly good in cc ( WS3 I3 ) while the battlecanon + reaper ac alone aren't worth the points imo. Most damning of all is that the Defiler competes with the Obliterator ( and to a lesser degree the Predator ), your possibly best source of reliable long range firepower. Abaddon is pretty meh, sure, he is pretty tough in cc but for the cost of a Landraider i would want something more impressive. Kharn is, thanks to his low price and good skill in combat, usualy the better choice for a cc HQ.
Single Landraiders will draw lots of fire and therefore explode pretty quickly, keep that in mind. Unless you need Raiders as a delivery system i would keep them at home and buy something else instead ( more Rhinos filled with meltasquads for example :D ).

GrimZAG
02-02-2012, 00:45
What I'd like to field is 2 units o' troops (regular flavored), 2 units of terminators, a Dreadnought and perhaps a defiler (after having been thouroughly converted, that's an ugly model there...) Throw in my Terminator Lord or Abaddon, maybe a LR and some Rhinos for rides and off we go. But when I look at that I see... bad things. With the GK anyway. Obviously I won't play my buddy all the time, but I'd like to be competitive at the least.


This is not a bad list and Abbadon is totally BOSS. I'd recommend adding Oblits and Plague marines to what you've got. I've not really had much success with Defilers and prefer normal predators. I haven't played GK so don't know much about them but you shouldn't tailor your army just to play him as I've always been pWned by others when I've tailored a list to kill X player, mistakenly thinking that I've made a balanced list.

KingDeath
02-02-2012, 11:16
This is not a bad list and Abbadon is totally BOSS. I'd recommend adding Oblits and Plague marines to what you've got. I've not really had much success with Defilers and prefer normal predators. I haven't played GK so don't know much about them but you shouldn't tailor your army just to play him as I've always been pWned by others when I've tailored a list to kill X player, mistakenly thinking that I've made a balanced list.

Abaddon isn't totaly "BOSS" simply because he and his delivery system ( Landraider ) will eat up a third of your points in a standard game. Of course then you run into the problem that a single Landraider is actualy quite easily neutralized which prevents Abaddon from actualy getting into combat.
Seriously, the only named HQ in the current dex which is worth a damn ( at least below 2000+ points ) is Kharn. With the lack of a reliable delivery system ( Landraider Crusader for example ) and the current weakness of cc even Kharn + Berzerkers are somewhat questionable.

Kevlar
02-02-2012, 20:28
Kingdeath do you own a chaos army? Mine holds up very well to the latest c0odex, necrons. I don't have problems using 2008 lash sorcs and I usually run a defiler, and sometimes even a dread!

Chaos may not have a lot going for it, but it isn't too hard to put together a competent list. One that can even compete with the latest and greatest.

Part of it may be your strategy. I usually try to shoot the killy stuff and kill the shooty stuff. When I can manage to do that, I win!

Caitsidhe
02-02-2012, 20:36
Kingdeath do you own a chaos army? Mine holds up very well to the latest c0odex, necrons. I don't have problems using 2008 lash sorcs and I usually run a defiler, and sometimes even a dread!

Chaos may not have a lot going for it, but it isn't too hard to put together a competent list. One that can even compete with the latest and greatest.

Part of it may be your strategy. I usually try to shoot the killy stuff and kill the shooty stuff. When I can manage to do that, I win!

How on Earth (or whatever planet) do Chaos Vehicles hold up against the new Necrons and their vehicle killing specialty unit? :)

GrimZAG
02-02-2012, 21:19
Abaddon isn't totaly "BOSS"

I beg to differ.

He'll stomp on guardsmen Like a BOSS
He orders madmen Like a BOSS
Promotes Chaos Like a BOSS
Never Fails Like a BOSS (well... except for 13 times...)
Eats Lictors Like a BOSS
Cause he's not a Lictor Like a BOSS
Marked by all the gods Like a BOSS
PROMOTES SYNERGY Like a BOSS

Based on the above evidence I've presented - He will literally eat everything in close combat, He does good damage and is protected quite well. You can deepstrike or run your termies up the field instead of a Land Raider. He costs a lot of points because he is really good. Don't roll a 1 when attacking and make sure you get him to combat or he won't be very useful though.

Caitsidhe
02-02-2012, 22:02
I beg to differ.

Beg all you want, reality will not give you your way.


He'll stomp on guardsmen Like a BOSS
He orders madmen Like a BOSS
Promotes Chaos Like a BOSS
Never Fails Like a BOSS (well... except for 13 times...)
Eats Lictors Like a BOSS
Cause he's not a Lictor Like a BOSS
Marked by all the gods Like a BOSS
PROMOTES SYNERGY Like a BOSS

I don't even recall the last time I saw a Lictor, so I won't be eating any. Who doesn't stomp guardsmen? What value is there in that? :) The rest is all fluff and irrelevant.


Based on the above evidence I've presented - He will literally eat everything in close combat, He does good damage and is protected quite well. You can deepstrike or run your termies up the field instead of a Land Raider. He costs a lot of points because he is really good. Don't roll a 1 when attacking and make sure you get him to combat or he won't be very useful though.

You didn't give any evidence. You gave rather entertaining opinion. Back it up with some numbers? I'll cede you the Guardsman thing but as I point out, that hardly makes him Da'Boss. I've killed entire units of Guardsman with 1-2 Plague Marines. There are numerous units he won't eat in combat (they will in fact eat him in a heartbeat). Running Terminators with him across the board instead of getting him there with some protection is kind of silly. Abaddon was Da'Boss when we could risk close combat. He has been demoted by the difficulty we have getting him into combat, the proliferation of Storm Shields, and the addition of units that eat him for lunch.

Mannimarco
02-02-2012, 22:57
Never Fails Like a BOSS (well... except for 13 times...)

4 times, not 13.

Say it with me now: 4 Black Crusades were failures, 5 were successful and 4 we have no information on whatsoever. Some of them werent even led by Abaddon.

GrimZAG
03-02-2012, 00:29
You didn't give any evidence.

[Thankful] You have pointed out the fact that my literary articulation has been quite poor as I've just been writing the way I would talk :)

[My actual thoughts written properly] Basically Abbadon is a cool fluffy option for an army, and I would imagine, this could be a nicely converted, well painted terminator unit for your collection. I would try an use him if you get him (have a go!), but as others have pointed out - he is not the best tactically viable option for a CSM force (as has been pointed out, he can be stopped by other ultimate 3++ units, he's not too bad though). As has been mentioned earlier the better units for Chaos marines are: Plague marines, normal Chaos marines, obliterators, daemon princes (obviously not against GK's though), rhinos, meltas and (I specifically like using) predators.

[Actual Tactical thoughts] I can't offer any against GK's but I have played often against space wolves, blood angels, chaos marines, tyranids and orks. I can say that expensive options such as a Despoiler in Land Raider can work (with luck) but if they fail so will the rest of your army as it's a lot of points in one unit. If that unit fails to perform then the rest of your army will probably not be as effective due to not having enough damage output. Chaos really needs to diversify their points into multiply effective units (ie - multiple plauge marine units, 2 x daemon princes, 3 x chaos marines squads and so forth) as most of their options can get too expensive if you sink upgrades into them (I recommend only Icon of Chaos Glory etc.). In 5th Edition - shooting is the new close combat, if you shoot, you basically have initiative >9000 and the enemy doesn't strike you back in the same turn. Making a shooty chaos list is the way to go. Chaos close combat units can be terrible, mainly due to fearless. I hate that rule. I'd say stick with Shooting.

[Some suggestions] The OP must play many games with chaos and try out what has been said instead of just relying on this thread's advice to build a list. If he's serious about learning to play effectively then I would recommend picking 1 force, chaos, normal marines or whatever and Sticking with it to create at least a 1750pt force. Write hundreds of lists, pick one you think is good and Play with this same repeatedly (maybe 20 times).

[Non Fluffy Army List suggestion] - There is a lack of tanks here though.
HQ
Deamon Prince, nurgle, wings, warp
Deamon Prince, nurgle, wings, warp

Elite
3 Terminators, 3 combi-meltas - 105 points (termicide units)
3 Terminators, 3 combi-meltas - 105 points

Troop
8 plague marines, Fist, double melta rhino Icon
8 plague marines, Fist, double melta rhino Icon
10 Marines, fist, melta, autocannon rhino
10 Marines, fist, melta, autocannon rhino

Heavy
2 Oblit
2 oblit
2 oblit


[Final Thoughts] The OP is not shooting himself in the foot by picking Chaos but will probably find that our units are more overpriced that they should be for what they offer. If you paint you force to be a coherent colour - that looks fluffy without limiting your options!

@Mannimarco - But none of the crusades ever killed the emperor, thereby making them all failures ;)

Mannimarco
03-02-2012, 00:44
[Non Fluffy Army List suggestion] - There is a lack of tanks here though.
HQ
Deamon Prince, nurgle, wings, warp
Deamon Prince, nurgle, wings, warp

Elite
3 Terminators, 3 combi-meltas - 105 points (termicide units)
3 Terminators, 3 combi-meltas - 105 points

Troop
8 plague marines, Fist, double melta rhino Icon
8 plague marines, Fist, double melta rhino Icon
10 Marines, fist, melta, autocannon rhino
10 Marines, fist, melta, autocannon rhino

Heavy
2 Oblit
2 oblit
2 oblit


[Final Thoughts] The OP is not shooting himself in the foot by picking Chaos but will probably find that our units are more overpriced that they should be for what they offer. If you paint you force to be a coherent colour - that looks fluffy without limiting your options!

@Mannimarco - But none of the crusades ever killed the emperor, thereby making them all failures ;)

Warptime got nerfed hard, we're seeing an increase in Wind of Chaos instead.

You cant go wrong with plague marines in rhinos

6 oblits is perhaps a bit much, we usually see 4.

Off topic: Oh but those crusades did achieve their objectives. Death by a thousand cuts and all that.

HunteR got bored
03-02-2012, 06:46
So, here's my question: Am I doomed from inception here? I've read an awful lot on the interwebs and it would appear that the GKs are a tad on the unbalanced side. Needless to say I'll not be getting those Demon Princes as HQs anymore. :shifty:

From what i know daemon princes arn't affected by GK (well, not as much as anything from C:CD) all i can say is try and out shoot them, whilst denying thier armour saves, good luck!

Darnok
03-02-2012, 08:01
I say: start collecting and painting now, play a few small games, and wait until summer. Chaos gets a huge makeover with the coming of 6th edition. :)