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LionoftheBegs
24-04-2006, 06:50
Some of you may not remember me, but I play Historicals. Howevera recent development in my league has now forced me to start Fantasy. While not a total waste of my time, I believe it could potentally stand up with my Historical Armies.

So I come here asking for information wondering what to do. I play Nomadic armies and have 8-10 armies from the Early Scythians to the Uzbeks. Since all or most of these armies are made up of Horses, it would be simple to translate it into WHFB.

I looked up Bretonnians, Empire and even Dogs of War. In your opinion what is a really good all Cavalry army or will this even work?

Bingo the Fun Monkey
24-04-2006, 07:03
Ummm. Go brets. If you can tolerate the blatant rip-off fusion of kossacks and mongols, the Kislevites might trigger your interest. Aren't you above all this fantasy stuff though? I seem to recall a lion of the begs from portent because the lizardmen didn't accurately represent *real* dinosaurs or something... ;-)

On the other hand, if you want a more stimulating and interesting gaming experience, maybe you can expand your repetoire and take some infantry (for, you know, a bit of balance and variety)? High elves also have core cavalry. Both Dark and Wood Elves have core light cavalry. It's really a matter of taste and whether u like humans or can tolerate sissy elves. Welcome back.

MadJackMcJack
24-04-2006, 07:13
Don't forget greenskins. The Nomadic WAAAAGH! list allows for a horde of wolf riders and boar boys.

lorelorn
24-04-2006, 07:17
High Elves, Dark Elves, and Orcs & Goblins can all comfortably go the all-cavalry route. It sounds as though you want to stick with an all-human army though.

I would recommend Dogs of War, since they have generic heavy and light cav, and you can use a variety of models to represent these. Kislev units can be added to Dogs of War armies to give you 'elite' choices, and then you have the regiments of renown, such as Voland's Venators to strengthen your core cav.

Likewise, the human heroes are all generic for DoW and you can use whatever models you see fit to represent them.

Pravus
24-04-2006, 09:36
Chaos mortals - chaos knights and marauder horsemen. Only problem I can forsee is that Chaos don't use any bows - they do use throwing axes and javelins though.

See Hordes of Chaos for a nice picture of "Charge of the Khazags" - don't know the page OTTOMH, but its near the front.

russian
24-04-2006, 11:55
high elves have a nice mix of caverlry for a fully mounted army,
Silver helms, dragon princes, Elyrian Reavers and chariots

Michaelius
24-04-2006, 12:13
Dogs of war if your current miniatures are with correct scale. You can use pretty much everything there.

Or high elves/brets if you are going to buy new ones.

Darth_Senjius
24-04-2006, 12:48
if you want heavy french cavalry you have brets. If you want german cavalry you have the empire. If you want russian cavalry you have kislev.

Crazy Harborc
24-04-2006, 19:15
DoW can have large numbers of units of heavy and fast cav. Buy several bags of the 25 by 50mm slotta cav bases. Most opponents will not care that your minies are true 25s not 28mm. They will care if the bases aren't "in scale".;)

IF......you decide to use some GW minies to convert your own heavy cav on unbarded horses.........Trade for or buy unbarded GW horses. Empire, High Elves(silverhelms) and Bretonnian plastic knights can fit onto plastic unbarded horses with a little careful leg bending.

Have you got some extra shields, hand weapons, lances, spears?? Swap around some, (real DoW/mercs did). A open-faced Empire Knight head will fit onto a HE Silverhelm's body, especially the head with the tall standing feathers;)

When I started WHFB, I did Empire (because I wanted to use it's infantry) I have a feeling (based on your named historical armies) DoW and or Empire are the way to go.

If you use Army Builder OR know someone who does check out the files available for AB. You WILL need to use the WHFB 6th Ed. rulebook AND any armybooks you pick the armies of. Sadly the current DoW lists are just lists one for RoR and one for DoW. The GW website has many PDF files available for the DoW/RoR.

Pokpoko
24-04-2006, 19:53
i If you want russian cavalry you have kislev.
it's Polish cavalry,damnit,Polish:p .
anyway-if you already have cav models up to scale, i'd, as others suggest DoW,as they can be used to represent anything. if you start from scratch i'd stay away from Empire-despite having 1+ save the knights actually are one of the weakest cav in the game(however, with the "DiY Knightly Order" printed in one of the WD's it's also one most customizable). Brets are good, but chaos all-cav is very strong too, and the body count is low enough to be reasonably cheap.
(especially if you use some plastic cav, like Imperial, to build the knights. i'mfor 32 you can buy one Imperial Cav box(8 models inc. FCG), and Warriors of Chaos(12 models,FCG)-it will be enough to build 8 models and still have chaos bitz for 4 more.5 "orginal" chaos knigts cost 25Ł in comparison)

Lyonator
24-04-2006, 20:16
If I ever have the funds/gumption, I'm planning on rocking an all cav Orc and Goblin army.
Wolfriders and Boars as far as the eye can see!

Possibly some squigs so I can do a cowboy <er, squigorc> unit.

RGB
24-04-2006, 20:20
it's Polish cavalry,damnit,Polish:p .

It's cavalry in Russian "Kolontar"-style armour and with Polish lances and wings.

And it's not worth the points you pay for it, either way.

Pokpoko
24-04-2006, 20:34
hmm.the details on the minis are tragic, so i won't get into arguments, and have to belive you(i was always certain that it was normal karacena, but do'h i'm no specialist). however if you count it's :Polish lance, wings, helmet and animal skin versus armour. either way, Polish influence wins;)

and yes, they are not worth their points. what can you ask however, from such terribly underdeveloped list:(

RGB
24-04-2006, 20:50
(i was always certain that it was normal karacena, but do'h i'm no specialist).

...Polish ....helmet

Hm. I thought the Jarichonkas and the Sziszaks were not used by the Husaria since the late 16th century, i.e. the classical Hussars of the 17th c. wouldn't look like the GW minis at all, more like pistoliers with lances and wings.

The armour - there's a variety of types on the various GL and WL minis. Some could be karacena and you know, scale/mail/lamellar armour was a continuum of variation from Poland all the way to China.

So it could be Polish cavalry, but before the late 16th c. reforms. It could be ANY Slavic or Turcic cavalry prior to the 16th c. actually, except with wings. So yeah.

Sleazy
24-04-2006, 21:09
I have an all mounted greenskin army, loadsa wolf riders (some light cav some not, wolf chariots, boar chariots and a uint of boar boys (which i'm planning to phase out). It plays quite well, often gets a kicking but is fun and characterful to use

Pokpoko
24-04-2006, 21:10
the wings actually shouldn't be there, unless you want parade detail rather than field troops(the wings were permanent element only since the XVIII century, when the hussars were mainly parade troops anyway-of course some sources say that they did use wings in battle, but as always, it depends on which sources you base).
as for szyszak, i'm pretty sure they used it in the 17th.they certainly have it on the paintings depictiong battle of Vienna(how acurate is that is of course questionable, so i won't say i'm 100% certain)
btw-i think that we should stop hijacking the thread;)

LionoftheBegs
25-04-2006, 06:02
Thanks for you replies.

I don't know how elves play at all, so if you would kindly describe what they have thats puts them apart from Humans, I would be greatful.

Yes I do own around 8 to 10 Nomadic armies which can be mixed togeather to form 5 different additional armies. However I have painted them to what I feel is prefection, and I would not like to de-base and re-base them. They are not involved in this "adventure". I just described them so that you guys and girls know where I am comming from.

I plan to convert and buy mostly GW models, since my league is now insisting that we do it "officially" and it would be "fun". In anycase, its starting out from scratch.

I have seen some Bretonnians and Empire steeds and I am distressed about the armour that the Empire Steeds are wearing. Even if this is fantasy, at least I would like horses without horns. And another thing, with all that armour, are those horse supposed to be carring a person with a full suit of armour? The Bretonnians do look alot simpler but what is up with the lazy job on the cloth? It seems to be missing from the middle and is only on the front and back legs. What is it supposed to be hooked up to?

I guess a mixture of both would do no harm. So tell me how do Bretonnians and Empire play as? Keep in mind my tatics revolve around horse archers circling the opponent while in the end the heavy cavalry charges breaking them up. Would this be even possible with any of them?

Also I have found no figures for Dogs of Wars miniatures. What is the ruling for this and where can I find them? Also I have been unable to locate any upper torsos that would even remotely resemble horse archers. Any here here?

Pokpoko
25-04-2006, 09:51
because DoW don't have their own minis. they'r the closest to generic army that you'll find-for heavy cavalry entry in DoW army you may use Empire, Brettonian,Kislev or even Elven(if you feel like it)knights,as long as they'll keep wyswig. as for horse archers, there are only three units in the game that have bows and are ounted-Kislev Horse archers, Wood Elf Glade Riders and High Elf Ellyrians. mind you, bows aren't terribly useful in the game, don't expect them to win you any game. if you seriously think about having horse missile troops as your core, then there are two armies-Wood Elves, with the glade riders(a whole army designed around those, with support from some wild riders and maybe warhawks is very frustrationg to play against, as infantry formations have hard time even seeing the Fast Cav. units), or Dark Elves, with possibly best shooting cav in the game-dark riders with repeater crossbows(the same S as bow, but twice the number of shots), which you can support with Cold one knights and chariots. both armioes are hard to play, and terribly delicate, but they'd suit your style i belive.
anyway, i can't tell much about how empire is played, since i don't have lots of experience with them, but brettonia is rather straightforward-move to the enemy, charge,repeat if necessary;).or fly around with your pegasi knights, but it's considered "powergaming" and bad taste;)

:0)
25-04-2006, 14:53
Don't you already have 10,000 points of Lizardmen painted somewhere?

I remember you had a big thread and everything.

Axel
25-04-2006, 15:22
The "feel of play" between historical wargaming and wfb is not comparable. There are some rules that simply forbid tactics that work in historical games, especially using light mounted archers to soften up the enemy.

A mounted Empire army will have Pistoleers and Knights - quite an effective combination and Pistoleers come as close to your archers as anything in this game. The real mounted archers, available only with the DOW, are, well, less effective. The Bretonnians represent the archetype of the "Knights" in a way they never were. They are, however, a very effective army in their way, too, and if you go mounted only will probably work better then the Imperials. Just don't try to use real life tactics (and keep your temper when you encounter chariots)...

hairyman
25-04-2006, 15:30
I don't know how elves play at all, so if you would kindly describe what they have thats puts them apart from Humans, I would be greatful

Faster and more fragile, with deadly magic... to put it very simply. If you're as allergic to high fantasy elements in wargames as you seem to be I dunno if they'd be for you, but they do have the ability to field an exceptional cavalry army. They have the ideal units to mix light horse archers and heavy cavalry, with the odd mounted hero or wizard thrown in. Their chariots are good as well, although I don't know if that appeals to you...?

edit: You know, if you're caught up in a quest for realism in WHFB then I don't think you're ever really going to enjoy playing the game, which is surely the point. You're going to have to let some stuff slip, whether it be modelling standards or the realistic translation of war by the WHFB rules, otherwise I'd guess you're just going to be grumpy about the whole affair.

LionoftheBegs
25-04-2006, 17:01
Don't you already have 10,000 points of Lizardmen painted somewhere?

I remember you had a big thread and everything.

I have since given it to my wife. It was simple really, no one to play agianst and I barely touched the rules or even played with them so I have no exposure to them. I came here hoping to get some exposure on them, but found no one plays in my area. I hope she will do better now that this "fanasty gaming" as a hold on the league.

So what I get it that Bows have no power over what I assume, and seeing the Chaos Warriors, full suited men in armour up the wazoo that if you just point at them they will tip over, and that almost every, well mostly, every army has something like this? What use are archers then if you always either a) fighting those who have so much armour or b) that they fight in hordes?

In saw the elvish armies today, I wouldn't say thier bad, however the High Elf steeds are somewhat of a resemblence to the Cataphrats . Could Humans fit on them or is it for Elves only?

Also are there modeling standards for gaming "officially"? Like what is the rule for mixing different producer items in a model?

In anycase I see that that High Elves have calvary which indeed looks to be the same, yet will the points of each model resitrict me to few models?

In regards to High Fantasy, no I do not like High fantasy. What I do like in Fantasy however is some realism with dark overtones. I prefer a Hero who is more anti-Hero than actually Hero, who doesn't shy away from commiting grey acts (or evil in the eyes of other people) for a purpose and is in toil with himself over his powers. What I seem to find in WHFB is that Good always prevails, Chaos is pushed back and they all dance a merry jig at the end of the day (ala Tolken).

Crazy Harborc
25-04-2006, 19:34
First off......I LIKE WHFB. It is a "form" of wargaming rules. Part of GW's goals for their rules is to keep it simple, keep the game moving along. Since it's fantasy, not historical wargaming, reality can seem to disappear from time to time.

See hairyman's post, the second paragraph........He said it first, I agree with him.

That said, give WHFB a try. I play WAB's version of historical wargaming rules. I've been a wargamer for 40 plus years, seen plenty of different rules systems.

LionoftheBegs
25-04-2006, 22:43
First off......I LIKE WHFB. It is a "form" of wargaming rules. Part of GW's goals for their rules is to keep it simple, keep the game moving along. Since it's fantasy, not historical wargaming, reality can seem to disappear from time to time.

See hairyman's post, the second paragraph........He said it first, I agree with him.

That said, give WHFB a try. I play WAB's version of historical wargaming rules. I've been a wargamer for 40 plus years, seen plenty of different rules systems.

I am not telling you not to like it. I am asking questions that fill my need. IF you find that I am either making fun of your hobby or something, then your reading into it to much.

I have already told you what I like in fantasy and I expect you have a different opinion.

In anycase, since my league is now bent on this unholy vendor, I have finally narrowed it down. Either Dogs of War for thier Horse Archers and High Elves, which I presume what some sort of Horse Archers because I haven't looked in the book, Wood Elves and Bretonnia.

Out of the 4, which is more filling to play and won't leave me feeling like "huh..well that was interesting."? Normally Historics make me think (depending on how it goes) with what to do and what not to do and how to make it more effective.

Also what Advantages and Disadvatages are presumed to be in the armies, and with those armies do I really have to take infantry?

LionoftheBegs
26-04-2006, 05:36
Well, today my league and I went to my local GW today and started our armies. Since I already gave my wife my Lizardmen she did not tag along, but I went to see what they had and what I wanted. She pestered me to go since I had been double minding all afternoon.

Anyway since there are at least 12 permenent members [including me] with 6 part-timers, the part timers did not come with, these were the armies chosen:

2 High Elves
1 Orcs and Goblins
1 Bretonnia
1 Beasts of Chaos
1 Vampire Counts
1 Dark Elves
1 Wood Elves
1 Empire
1 Skaven
1 Dwarves

I on the other hand was tottering on either Bretonnia, Empire, High Elves and Wood Elves. I stayed behind to watch everyone as they bought thier items or starter kits as they wished, I took note of what they were collecting.

3 High Elves armies are to much for my taste so I dropped them. They have good Cataphrats Steeds. Empire and Wood Elves were chosen as well, but I believed it would contain much of the same things.

The obective here was to have different armies but they did not mind 2 High Elf armies since both wanted it and would not let go of thier choices.

So where was I left? I could do Bretonnia but would I really want Knights only back up with untested [in my standards] infantry? What would I really do?

Finally I decided. Somethign familar and the same while having the "fantasy" elements would at least spice things up I hope. So I chose Dogs of War. Most of them were shocked that I would chose such a bland list while others realised at what I was clawing at.

So I chose a box of Bretonnian Knights as the start of my army. I group of Heavy Calvary which I will admit I will need to green stuff which I don't have much experience with. My wife and I have currently glued most of the items togeather and green stuff will probably go on tommorrow. I guess I will start a thread on it in the Project section of this board.

I admit I don't even have an army list and while most of my league does have one. I will have to work on that and plus aquiring some decent models to ride on top of unarmoured steeds as my first unit of Horse Archers. I also plan to aquire at least 8 additional High Elf Cataphrat steeds to make another unit of Heavy Calvary. Hopefully the 2 high elf players can provide some sort of units.

So my questions are thus:

1) Is there a unit or some sort of model which does have upper torsos for my Horse Archers?

2) How does the Dogs-of-War armies play and what is most required? Please keep in mind that I am going to mostly play a All Calvary army.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
26-04-2006, 07:45
Dogs of War are a splended army choice, all things considered, especially your description of what you like in fantasy. A mercenary general can generally fight for "good" although, by their very nature, are rather shady characters. DoW allow you to use just about any model you so choose. As stated before you can use the kislevite horse archers, but you could always just use them as light cavalry armed with bows. If you're into conversions you can make some interesting looking cavalry units. Say, if you mail ordered pistoliers, took off the arms and mail ordered gryphon legion lances, all of a sudden you have a "generic" late medieval looking lancer fit for an unbarded warhorse. Winged lancers sans wings look spiffy too. Really, you can go to town. If you don't mind conversions take a look at the online catalogue and try to figure out possibilities. Best of luck and welcome to fantasy.

WARNING: DoW are barely supported by GW. Although they're still legal, they probably won't get a real book for many years, if ever.

LionoftheBegs
26-04-2006, 18:35
I posted an army thread here but don't know why it says Beasts of Chaos for: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33581

Anyway more questions

1) Whats the different between magic? Whats the strongest and the weakest?

2) Whats normally the number of Dispel and Magic dice? is 4 Dispel, 6 Casting good?

LionoftheBegs
27-04-2006, 00:51
I have started a project thread here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33627

Does any one know if any Infantry is multi-bodied? Like a torso and legs seperately? Pefferable ones that are human-like and can have bows.

Kotobuki
27-04-2006, 04:14
There's some archer Torsos if you do a search on GW's online store for archer or bowman. Mostly the Kislevs and Elves.

Axel
27-04-2006, 19:21
While i realize that you wanted an all cavalry force, DoW imho offers one of the most characterfull infantry units, the pikemen. While GWs minis for these are, well, below Foundrys level, they make quite effective blocks and have more historical feeling to them then almost all other infantry units. If you ever need someone to protect the rear (some scenarios ask for that, and protection using an all cavalry force is, well, tricky), go for them. Now if DoWs would only be allowed handguns... (or Empire pikes).

Crazy Harborc
27-04-2006, 21:30
How about a Marienburg Empire army?? Info is hard to get.........BUT there is a brief description in the Empire Armybook. Up to 50% of the army's units can be DoW. Most of the RoR/DoW units become core or special instead of rare.

Army Builder has it and the other Empire Armybook "Trial Armies" as choices. Likely NOT allowed in "official" events but hey........good for a one time beer/soda and snack game amongst friends.;)

LionoftheBegs
28-04-2006, 03:03
While I accept that each has thier own ideas on how an army should be, I have no experience nor do I really have any real interest in commanding infantry blocks. While they might be some advantages, like holding up the rear, I prefer that the Calvary do all the jobs at once.