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Oogie boogie boss
03-02-2012, 11:15
Is it just me, or do chariots (like the humble Giant) seem to be going through a bit of a slump? Where once the table would be teeming (well, two or three) with bespiked, whirling wheels of death pulled by beasts of all shapes and sizes, they are now relatively absent from most battlefields, unless they're being driven by a couple of guys in desperate need of a good meal or by diminutive green things with pointy teeth and few vertebrae.

Has anyone else noticed this absence of vehicular death in 8th?

It seems to be that unless they come in units, chariots are getting left behind.

So why might this be? And if you are a fan of road rage, how and why do you use your chariots? :eyebrows:

Makaber
03-02-2012, 11:22
I use a couple in my Beastmen army. They rarely do great things, but they're not that expensive either. I typically use them to defend my rear, but that's more out of lack of planning more than anything else: They mill around and get left behind. For me, they're a good way to fill up Core when I haven't got enough points for a worthwhile unit of anything else.

I'm also a fan of the Goblin ones. They've got all the things I want of a chariot: Fast, lots of Impact Hits, and cheap.

someone2040
03-02-2012, 11:40
I always bring 2 Tuskgor chariots along in my Beastmen army.
They're useful as cheap drops (in addition to ungor raiders).
They are useful for supporting a charge.
They've got swiftstride, so you can send them after the enemy when they flee (This could be important, as you may want to run down the enemy, but pursueing may leave you in a bad spot. So just throw an 80 pt Tuskgor chariot after them, and doesn't matter if it leaves it's flank open).

I think it generally depends on the army though. Beastmen have the advantage that their Tuskgor chariots are core, so they can help fulfil the minimum core percentage. Other armies don't really have that opportunity (Apart from Tomb Kings).

Morkash
03-02-2012, 11:42
I love mine with O&G. Most times I use a unit of 3 Wolf chariots and a single Boar chariot. The Wolfs are extremely fast and hitty, while the Boar chariot (codename: Fist of Gork) achieves impossible feats. It made the difference in a 3000 points game from crushing defeat (for me) to draw! Hooray for chariots! :D
No, honestly, Greenskin chariots are great value. They are cheap (150 points for 3d6+3 S5 impacts? Count me in!), fast and hitty, so I always take chances to bring a few. No experience with Pump Wagons yet, but I bought two recently and I'm eager to test them.

For my other armies, I never used them in my WoC army, because WoC don't seem to need them that much. On the other hand I've seen people using them with quite some success, since these chariots are extremely durable and manned by 2 Chaos Warriors. With Halberds!

And lastly, Ogres...well, as pretty much every Ogre player will confirm: There will always be at least one Ironblaster (or Scraplauncher, or both...or multiples of both) on the field. Ironblasters are expensive, but plain awesome. It's a T6 chariot, manned by a Ogre, drawn by a Rhinox...with a cannon which can move and fire. I just love it, even if it is ineffective most games and tends to explode: It looks good while doing so. ;)
The Scraplauncher suffered a bit from getting the small template, but a S3 template with Killing Blow which can move and fire is still good. Like the Ironblaster the Scrappy is resilient (even with T5) and if you have the need to stomp something, smash it into a flank. Both Ogre chariots are great in this dual purpose role of warmachine and chariot. You pay alot of points for them, but their potential is huge!

boli
03-02-2012, 12:00
I think Plague Furnace and Screaming bell technically count as Chariots - so yes you see a lot of them :P

Oogie boogie boss
03-02-2012, 12:42
Hmmm, grey area i think. I suppose they do cause impact hits, and they are character mounts, but i'd be more inclined to think of them as equipment or war machine. In the interest of fairness, consider the discussion herein to be relevent to dedicated chariots. You can include the Doomwheel in that though. :p

ihavetoomuchminis
03-02-2012, 13:09
They would be better if impact hits weren't so random. Something like roll 2 dices and choose the highest roll or 2D3 impact hits....i don't know. I don't use many chariots unless they have a good crew AND/OR beasts (Lion Chariot, Coven throne, WoC chariot) or offer me something else (Ogre Chariots, Mortis engine). And that's because i always roll a 1 or a 2 when rolling for impact hits.

Capt._Jaelinek
03-02-2012, 13:46
As a DE player the chariots are among the best you can take, but since you can't take them in a unit they are lone models. They also can't march which really limits their flexibility and usefulness. If they could march and take a unit of 3 I would field them more often. Also, you have to make conversions for DE chariots, which can get pricey.

Kahadras
03-02-2012, 14:14
At the moment I'm running a few Chariots/Lion Chariots in my HE army. On the whole they've done OK. The Tiranoc Chariot works quite well at driving off small flanking units while the Lion Chariot is great to combo up with the High Elf elite infantry. Getting Swordmasters into the front and a Lion chariot into the flank will quickly make a mess of most units.

Kahadras

GreenSpeed
03-02-2012, 14:38
3 Wold chariots are cheap fast and can do a lot of damage, always take em in larger games

warplock
03-02-2012, 15:47
It's hardly surprising that they are not used as much any more. Their 'impact hits' + high strength used to mean that they'd more often than not kill enough enemy to avoid m/any return attacks back. As steadfast also didn't exist, they'd stand a decent chance of breaking an enemy block. Two chariots would pretty much seal the deal. In 8th all their strengths have been completely neutered - they still take full attacks back regardless (in fact, they take even more than they would have before, thanks to stepping up), and their enemy is always going to be steadfast. So now they are used more to tip the balance of existing combats rather than winning combats on their own. On the whole I still like chariots, though. White Lion chariots are probably my favourite as they combine decent toughness and armour save with some absolutely vicious attacks - Two High Elves with ASF, WS5, rerolling to hit at S6, plus the war lions have S5 - even without the impact hits they're pretty deadly. The fact that they kick out loads of S5 and S6 attacks even in the 2nd round of combat puts them leagues ahead of other chariots, in my opinion.

oldWitheredCorpse
03-02-2012, 16:05
Their 'impact hits' + high strength used to mean that they'd more often than not kill enough enemy to avoid m/any return attacks back.

Impact hits were always (at least back to 6th ed) distributed as shooting and did not take away return attacks. The chargers usually got to attack first, though, regardless of initiative, and breaking on the enemy unit on the charge was indeed the goal.

skirder
03-02-2012, 17:11
tk - golden
vc - corpse cart and mortis engine are both chariots :p
o&g - cheap supporting drops that can really turn the tide of a combat
haven't seen many other chariots

warplock
03-02-2012, 17:25
Ah ok, I jumped from 5th to 8th and honestly can't remember much of the finer details from 5th :angel:

ewar
03-02-2012, 17:29
Impact hits were always (at least back to 6th ed) distributed as shooting and did not take away return attacks. The chargers usually got to attack first, though, regardless of initiative, and breaking on the enemy unit on the charge was indeed the goal.

I know there's no point having a 7th ed rules discussion, but chariot impact hits did stop return attacks - the distribution method didn't change this.

OT I don't think I've played against a single chariot in, apart from the only time I've played against TK. Says a lot I think.

Overtninja
03-02-2012, 17:32
i suppose they lose a bit of punch when everyone's decided that the best thing to do in this game is field 60+ strong blocks of infantry, such that round after round of serious casualties don't matter at all because of steadfast.

BUB
03-02-2012, 18:08
I find single chariots underwhelming but if they were all allowed to be taken in units like Tomb Kings and Gobbos then they would be a must have in any army I could field them. 3 single Tuskgor chariots aren't worth it as they have to stay an inch apart, if one dies the other 2 may panic and you need 3 successful charges to get them all in on the same target. A UNIT of 3 Tuskgor chariots on the other hand will cut through a lot of troops and is more reliable and has more maneuverability although it would still have the same panic issues.

Sexiest_hero
03-02-2012, 18:32
Well they no longer get destroyed by str7 (everybody seems to forget that). A flanking great bray shaman, in a chariot is golden.

sulla
03-02-2012, 18:55
Too many high strength horde units out there to make them universally useful, but situationally, they do make good additions to most forces if they are points-efficient.

Von Wibble
03-02-2012, 19:09
I'm a tomb kings player. They're amazingly good.

As an elf player I'd say they're OK - being able to apply a few extra kills on a small frontage can make a huge difference when trying to break steadfast. And high elves hate the things because they kill stuff before asf kicks in (and if you've whittled down a few swordmasters / white lions that will make an impact on return strikes).

In an army with the option for a chariot I will pretty much always take at least 1. High kills on small frontage for relatively few points is all the reason I need.

russellmoo
04-02-2012, 13:30
Some of this depends on the army you are playing, what I mean is, not all chariots are created equal. As an O&G player I find my T5 Str 5 D6+1 boar chariot to be quite effective, but I don't see why players take other lower strength D6 impact hit chariots- unless you take entire units of them (TK, goblin chariots)

Other armies don't really need the hitting power (HE, DE, WoC) and for these reasons they tend not to take chariots, while some armies (Beastmen) take chariots because their monsters are more points than they are worth.

w3rm
04-02-2012, 17:34
I'm not a huge fan of the tomb king chariots, I prefer archers for my core.

For orcs and goblins theyre great. 4 wounds, t5 and 8 pts for 4 str 5 attacks on the charge. Great at assassinating characters.

Spiney Norman
05-02-2012, 01:48
I bring 6-8 chariots to most games in my tomb kings army, does that count?

Manling
05-02-2012, 04:07
Chariots arent what they used to be and they are pretty much flankers rather than full on charge in the front with horde units

TK Chariot units can be deadly when you stack them up they can cause some serious damge even to Horde units and just destroying even
Blocks of saurus.

But that being said Chariots have there usefullness but seem to be more of a niche rather than a staple for the most part

Purplenewt
05-02-2012, 18:19
I converted 3 Chariots for my dark elves thinking they'd be great if i staggered them a bit so they would travel together to garantee 2 charges if the enemy got a lucky long charge in. unfortunatley the reality for me was several failed stupidy tests every game at pivotal times and a lack of marching then makes setting up a decent charge very difficult.

So on the face of it 3d6+3 str 5 hits, 12 str 4 hits (crew/Cold ones), plus 12 shots from theyre repeater crossbows all for 300pts sounds great but for me, horrendus luck has put me off them and now they only come out in games of over 3000points.

SevenSins
05-02-2012, 20:24
I usually field 2 with my DE, adding some extra kills in a crucial combat or tying something weak up with WS5, T5, 3+ save

In beastmen I intend to go for 8+ but haven't tested it yet :)

O&G and TK seems to have some of the most reliable chariots and are also able to field large numbers (and TK doesn't march anyway so less limiting to them I guess)

Armond
05-02-2012, 21:35
I run 2 wolf chariots. 50 points apiece and they ALWAYS make their value back. Whether they draw the attention of someone's war machines or spell casters, or if they cause an opponent to make adjustments.

Examples:

One day played against Lizardmen. He had some chameleon skinks in the woods near the middle of the deployment zone. I declared a long charge, and got it. Knocked that unit out and overran into a slamander and tied it up for I think it was a full round.

Other month, against Dark Elves. Got my wolf chariot into a flank of a Cold One Knight Unit. Wiped out two of them, got the clank and charge bonuses and made them run, I ran them down.

Two days ago against more Dark Elves. I waited to about turn 3 for me, and got an exposed Hydra charge. I opted not to, and went for the less obvious charge into a flank of a slightly beat up corsair unit. I had to do a total of 5 wounds to make them lose steadfast, and I did it. That unit had the BSB in it as well. So got some a good points, over 250 for that one unit.

Trying to count the psychological effect they have on people is nigh impossible. People tend to make adjustments when you have a beefy chariot or two weedier chariots on a flank or ready to charge in support. You have to have no fear of charging thru terrain with them as well. I know they are 50 points apiece, and am willing to sacrifice them for the greater good. Plus they earn their points back best in later turns of the game, 3 and after.

enyoss
06-02-2012, 08:50
It all depends on the chariot I suppose. I find my High Elf chariots to be too random and fragile to be of much use. If I had chariots with scythes, or toughness 5, or with strength 4 creatures, I might think differently. Even then though, I suspect I wouldn't bother in 8th.

Von Wibble
06-02-2012, 20:59
Errr, your lion chariots have strength 5 mounts....Looks like you do have a reason to think differently! Personally I find 2 S5 attacks with 2 S6 reroll to hit attacks and impact hits is a huge boost.

popisdead
06-02-2012, 21:35
Armour and Swiftstride means they can pursue on a combo charge better than infantry (which you may want to reform).

Mostly it depends on the chariot too, I wouldn't take Orc chariots but Beastmen ones are handy.

They are a support unit now instead of "throw three Tuskgor chariots at this unit to break it".

enyoss
07-02-2012, 09:06
My problem with the Lion Chariot is that it just has too much attacking power. I know that sounds weird but bear with me.

Basically, the Tironoc Chariot can't put out enough hitting power and, more importantly, is completely dependent on its randomly determined attacks. It's not cheap enough to be completely 'throw away' either, unlike the goblin chariot. On the other end of the spectrum, the Lion Chariot has an absolute tonne of hitting power which is particularly concentrated in its non-random (i.e. regular) attacks, but the upshot is that you end up paying a fortune for what is still a T4 4W model.

Ideally, I think chariots have to strike a fine balance. They need some strength in the non-random attacks, or scythes, to make up for the random nature of impact hits, but not so much that the cost gets too high. Alternatively, if you are loading a load of dependable (and expensive, points-wise) attacks onto one model, you need a decent defensive boost to make it worthwhile.

With this in mind, I think the High Elf chariots are probably the worst of the lot (no doubt I've forgotten some other poor chariot). Chaos Warrior chariots, Orc chariots, and Dark Elf chariots, all do a great job of adding some hitting power to offset the randomness of the impact hits, without driving the cost through the roof (and they're all tougher than the Lion Chariot anyway).

Ideally, I would like the Lion Chariot mounts to have only one attack each, for a drop in points. Then I could maybe see myself taking it.

Spinocus
07-02-2012, 21:24
TK chariots... I love 'em to pieces and then raise them back and love 'em again. I shudder to think what the TK book would be like without them in their current incarnation (D6 Impact hits w/+1 STR for each additional rank was a sorely need boost). They are amazing when accompanied by re-directors or escorts to keep enemies off their flanks. Two attacks and two bow shots per Skelly charioteers per chariot rounds out the love affair. Give them Banner of Swiftness for a priceless look on your opponent's face when your chariots routinely make 15", 16" and 17" charges or the Banner of Eternal Flame for armies & units dependent on Regen.

Priced about right too boot and balanced to boot.

gdsora
07-02-2012, 23:21
Matters what army?

I play TK and adore my chariots.

Units of 6 hit like a truck and the way they interact with the +1 attack buff is golden.

I see a lot of OnG chariots, but very few chariots from other armies.

Oogie boogie boss
10-02-2012, 17:05
I do think in 8th Chariots work much better in units, or at least in tandem. TK and Gobbo chariots seem to be a lot more popular at the moment than, say, DE or even Chaos ones for just that reason. I still think they're worth taking though, they just need to be used more carefully.

Walls
10-02-2012, 23:53
I take 4-6 in my beastman army. They're a staple of my list. Hell, I wish empire had chariots too so I could use them in that army!

Oogie boogie boss
11-02-2012, 08:33
They do, and technically they're the hardest in the game. They're called Steam Tanks. :p

Harwammer
11-02-2012, 23:49
Oogie I thought you were gonna say War Altars!

Oogie boogie boss
12-02-2012, 17:09
Oh yeah, and them. :p

mcwolf4
12-02-2012, 18:35
ive had alot of sucess with 2 white lion chariots either hitting flanks while DP hit the front or chariots in the front and DP in the flank

Jacobby
12-02-2012, 18:55
With my Empire army I'm rarely seen without a chariot.
I'm surprised that neither the War Altar nor Steam Tank has been mentioned so far. Those are really chariots that turn the tide of a battle!
...On the other hand none of them are 'traditional' chariots, even though the War Altar can pack a punch in close combat, if kitted out right.

OldMaster
12-02-2012, 23:12
Not being able to march makes chariots slow. Very, very slooooooooooooooooooooooooow.
Like seriously my Warriors march one inch more than they
For 150 points there is nothing a chariot can't do my halberd guys can't achieve.
A hero on a chariot doesn't do wonders either.

skirder
15-02-2012, 16:34
Not being able to march makes chariots slow. Very, very slooooooooooooooooooooooooow.
Like seriously my Warriors march one inch more than they
For 150 points there is nothing a chariot can't do my halberd guys can't achieve.
A hero on a chariot doesn't do wonders either.

I think that this is one of the biggest reasons that tk chariots shine. when nothing in your army marches, it doesn't seem that bad when your chariots don't. And, to make up for your slow army, you have a bubble movement spell... which can give you the game's fastest chariots!

Chicago Slim
18-02-2012, 01:35
I don't think they're a "no-option" broken-powerful sort of thing-- but they're definitely solid.

As one example: I was in a four-game round-robin tourney, in which I decided to play my old (built in 7th ed) Ork and Goblin army (the theme of which is a Fantasy Kult of Speed thing: great shaman on a chariot, with lots of chariots to back him up-- all modified from 40K Warbuggies, Trukks and the like).

I had a funny bit in one game, against Ogres, when I threw a couple of chariots at some Mournfang Cavalry (each chariot needing an 8+ to make the charge). One of them made it, the other didn't. And, go figure, my lonesome 80 point chariot won that fight, and broke the Mournfang and ran them down. Who'd have thought?

Afterwards, I ran the math hammer. Turns out, it wasn't actually surprising for that lonesome chariot to break those mighty Mournfang: (In total, the chariot expects to do 3 or more unsaved wounds about 60% of the time, which drops the come-backs to a maximum of 2 unsaved wounds 60% of the time. That ends up with the Mournfangs most likely losing by 2, and testing on a 5, which is pretty unlikely...)


The point of this story is: cavalry does not suck. Certainly, it's got a hard time if it wants to break stacked-up infantry, but it's quite fine for smacking down cavalry, war machines, or just about anything without a lot of models...

Capt._Jaelinek
18-02-2012, 13:31
The point of this story is: cavalry does not suck. Certainly, it's got a hard time if it wants to break stacked-up infantry, but it's quite fine for smacking down cavalry, war machines, or just about anything without a lot of models...

The problem is how many people bring MSU now? I guess it really depends on your local meta, but in an all comers list it's difficult for chariots to make back their points. Ogres are notoriously under armored for cavalry. That tactic would not work against WoC, Blood Knights or Cold One Knights. The armor save is too good.

BigG28
18-02-2012, 21:03
As an ogre player ironblaster's are a must in any list. they truly are a jack of all trades. Not the best at any one thing but they make a fantastic well rounded unit.

Gary

Oogie boogie boss
21-02-2012, 11:00
If you can get the charge, i'd say cavalry, of almost any type, should be a good target for chariots, simply because even if your chariot doesn't inflict many casualties the fight back and static combat res will be less than a ranked up infantry unit.

malladin.ben
23-02-2012, 10:55
I nearly always take a couple in a 2k list with my Beastmen. But having said that, its usually just to eat up core points based on what I have available. I quite often run close to the minimum core requirement (unless Ghorros is coming out to play) and so its a toss up between chariots and raiders. Personally I prefer chariots, usually using them for a second round punch into a flank in a combat, of sothat I've got something quick in there to chase down fleeing troops. The things raiders can do I can usually do better with small units of harpies or centigors, or solo razorgors.

Cheerio,

Ben

malladin.ben
23-02-2012, 11:01
Oh, just remembered, I'm also trialling a beastlord razorgor grinder chariot at the moment, designed to do maximum carnage. With slugskin and the brass cleaver he does (against infantry) 1d6 S5 impact hits plus 4 S3 impact-like hits every turn, plus 8 WS6 S5 attacks with rerolls to hit. Plus I'm using him in a campaign and he's naturally stubborn, due to having been taken down by a dark elf assassin in the past. I've only played him in a few games so far, and I'm just working out how to use him effectively. Early results are encouraging - but I have learnt that he does need to be targetted against the right types of troops.

Cheerio,

Ben

Mozzamanx
23-02-2012, 11:22
Regarding the Razorgrinder, its worth remembering that after his first charge you can combat-reform so that you have the enemy to your flank. While this would give the enemy +1 Combat Resolution, it can grant potentially +7 Attacks from the Cleaver and 7 Slugskin hits.
Razorgor Chariots are a true gem. :p

Rommel44
23-02-2012, 22:25
I like Chariots, not only for there fluff but I have seen what they can do given the chance, especially in a unit. Besides my Empire (who have a Chariot in the War-Altar, which can be a very good supporting unit), I just started running a TK army and after a few fights, being able to take units of Chariots instead of just one makes them even more nasty, especially against all the horde units that are popping up these days. At the moment, I just tested running a unit of 7x Chariots w/FC and the Banner of Swiftness, and in the unit I have Settra the Imperishable and a BSB on a Chariot w/The Banner of the Undying Legion or the Ranger Standard in 5x2 formation. Granted its a lot of points in one unit, but I have seen this unit and others very similar to it just destroy elite hordes on the charge without breaking a sweat :D.

grhino
24-02-2012, 14:22
Damn, that's one heavy kickass unit...

Ver
28-02-2012, 12:27
I used to take chariots as cheap + spell dice back in Hordes of Chaos and ended up buying 4 of them, which weren't bad back then. With 7th flying by without me playing and picking it up again in 8th I have to confess that for WoC I really haven't bothered taking chariots though might start again just to get away from cookie cutter looking lists.
As my 6 year old son wanted orcs and goblins to paint up with me and his brother while we paint I recently came into posession of a couple of the boar chariots, glad to see that they perform well and the wolf ones too as O&G was tempting me as well!
The high elves I have slowly been putting together for years on and off I was pondering the lion chariot simply as a hard hitting combat support which seems to be the general consensus for its use, has anyone found anything even vaguely useful for the tiranoc chariot to be do?

Rommel44
28-02-2012, 16:14
Tiranoc Chariots can be good since you can get 2x for the price of one Lion Chariot, and though they dont hit as hard, they still are a good flanking unit in support of other HE troops.