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Miredorf
03-02-2012, 22:38
I just noticed how grotesque and big are the new models of Vampire counts. The crypt ghouls/vargheist appear to be twice the size of a troll and similar mounstrous creatures. The grave guard barely reach the chest of the wraith and banshee and, well, what can else can i add about the mortis engine/throne.

Is this gigantization so cool for the crowd? how do you guys transport these models around? its really getting silly imo.

redben
03-02-2012, 22:56
There's been a steady increase in model size in the 25 years I've been playing but there's no doubt that 8th ed has heralded a mighty leap. In part I think the move to plastic makes it more feasible to do these oversized models (queue people telling me most of these are in metal lol). I recall JJ writing something to this effect a few years back.

The bearded one
03-02-2012, 23:49
GW can do a lot more with plastic than they could previously, or with metal for that matter. GWs designers and developers seem to want to make full use of that capability to push modeldesign as far as they can and create exciting and exorbant new kits. I guess now that other companies are honing in on their marketshare, pushing the boundaries of what they can create is GWs new niche. Sure, you may get 100 models for a couple bucks with Mantic, or a superior rulesystem with another company, but GW creates kits that make your jaw drop. With every new army release since.. mhmm.. lizardmen probably, I'm wondering how they were going to top the previous monster or large kit. Just looking back at the 8th edition books, I was impressed with the spider, though admittedly the spider itself is fairly bare. Then came TK with their sphinxes which created decently distinct sphinxes from one kit. Next up we get Ogres with 2 positively enormous monstrosities, which really have an incredibly different silhouette just with a head & tail swap, which is quite impressive. One armybook later we suddenly get this wild crazy ethereal host carrying thrones with vampires, or reliquaries being circled by some of the most dynamic models I've ever seen (those 3 banshees I mean). Hot daimn..

..I think they're doing a pretty dang good job.

Remember the corpse cart when it came out 4-5 years ago? It looked awesome and we were impressed with this plastic kit. By todays standards it's quite nice, but nothing special anymore, as nearly every new kit GW puts out is bloody darn amazing.

Sexiest_hero
04-02-2012, 01:20
I love the new kits!

hashrat
04-02-2012, 08:28
If anything GW scaling has been kind of silly for years, supposedly giant models like a Giant, were tiny. Now they are more in keeping with lore descriptions.

Harwammer
04-02-2012, 08:34
Adding to the point that GW scaling is silly I have to mention the dwarf army we have at our house. The figures are mostly early/mid nineties and the variations of sizes even in one unit (say, crossbow men) is plain silly. The longbeards are just tiny too. I've decided as a dwarf ages and it's beard grows longer he himself must diminish in size!

WarmbloodedLizard
04-02-2012, 08:39
I strongly dislike the gigantization. I'm ok with 3-4 armies getting something really big like the bell, but i dislike most other things.

Avalanche
04-02-2012, 08:47
It looks cool right now because we still have the memory of little empire footmen on our mind while we view the new kits but after a while the kits won't impress us with their size alone because it will be a usual sight.

wizbix
04-02-2012, 09:22
Wraiths and banshees should be taller than grave guard as they are floating and grave guard are not. Is that gigaticization? And those VArgheists dont look too big when compared to the river trolls. As for the rest, when i saw them in store I thought they were far smaller than I had been expecting.

yabbadabba
04-02-2012, 09:28
I'll worry when the new Dwarf plastic Trollslayers are looking my Empire Halberdiers in the eyes.

Grimstonefire
04-02-2012, 09:33
I'll worry when the new Dwarf plastic Trollslayers are looking my Empire Halberdiers in the eyes.

Don't worry, they'll bring them down to their level soon enough! Lol. :)

eldargal
04-02-2012, 09:45
I love the trend personally, and I don't really see what the problem is. The large units aren't so overpowered that they are MUST HAVES (people complain about this too) but they are gorgeous and make wonderful centrepieces. The Coven Throne alone convinced me to start a Vampire Counts army, something I never, ever would have considered previously. I can hardly wait to see what they do with Empire, High and Dark Elves.

I would point out that metal giants, dragons and large things (like the war wagon) have existed for a long time, the difference is now GW can produce them in light, plastic kits that don't require a degree in engineering to assemble.

scarletsquig
04-02-2012, 09:58
GW's niche is definitely the big stuff like terrain and monsters, which they are able to put out for cheaper than their competitors since they're the only company big enough to make them economical in plastic. That used to be the case with plastic infantry, so they got too comfortable and started jacking the price up to "there's no reason why it shouldn't cost the same as metal" levels.

Plastic characters are another thing that only GW can do at this point, so that's another area of sales where they can be safe from the competition.

I'm fine with this. It is very doable to buy the 100s of infantry that 8th edition requires from Mantic instead of paying 100 for a single horde unit of GW elite infantry, and buy all the frills from GW.

Some of the kits, like the high elf dragon and stegadon are even decent value for money. This applies to GW's terrain range too, when compared directly to the alternatives out there, it offers the best material possible (hard plastic) at a price which isn't that bad. I'd have happily bought loads of it by now if the design department hadn't had a mental breakdown and spewed skullz over everything. The ruins of Osgiliath kit for LotR is exactly the kind of thing we need more of. Modular, cheap and generic. I've seen someone make an entire Mordheim table for 60 using these. It looked good.

vinush
04-02-2012, 10:08
I'd like to use a mortis engine in my VC army, but the ridiculous size and the logistics involved in transporting it are putting me off buying the model. I'm sure there's lots of parts I could use for other things, but as I said, the size of the kit puts me off.

Mallo
04-02-2012, 10:26
There's been a steady increase in model size....

Tell that to my new night/forest goblins that are standing next to my 4th+5th ones!!

Im personally looking forward to a new release of lizardmen for 8th and personally glad its not going to be any time soon. The stegadon was the first mini I got after a long break and I was impressed with the size and quality of it, and all the extra bits included. I don't collect lizardmen, but with the size of kits increasing and the quality of them improving when they do renew the range I can only imagine how awesome the dinosaur kits are going to be! Even hoping that forgeworlds warhammer forge keeps growing and we will get a gargantuan siege-asaurus-Rex!

Grimstonefire
04-02-2012, 11:55
Something I always felt/ feel was wrong with the warhammer monsters is that they are not as big as they should be. Even now.

Something like the giant should be at least 1.5 times taller imo, whilst the HE dragon should be twice as big. I know this doesn't translate well into rules for smaller games, but the mortis engine thing looks to be a similar height to the giant. Which is just plain wrong imho.

If GW are really concerned about the size for having them on the shelves just do them direct only.

StygianBeach
04-02-2012, 12:06
I like big things being big, like Dragons, Coven thrones or Giants. I am not so keen on scale creep though. The Isle of Blood Seaguard are an example of too big for what they represent. There is only so much a 20mm base should have to put up with.

ewar
04-02-2012, 12:22
I think one of the best things about the revitalisation of warhammer with 8th ed, is that all these great big multi purpose kits really give the battlefield some height and variety. I think a lot more gamers are drawn to the look of a game over how it plays per se, so warhammer has lost out to 40k for years as tanks got bigger and better looking (not to mention the FW goodies).

Having great big centrepieces is fantastic I think, so I hope they keep it up. The Necrosphinx model has basically convinced me to start up a Tomb King army. As for the infantry scales, yes it's crept up, but honestly I don't think it impacts the game (and generally the slightly larger scale allows more detail/better design).

brightblade
04-02-2012, 12:41
I love the design of the kits and think they are all fabulous. The kind of kits we could only have dreamed of fifteen years ago.

It is ironic that the preponderance of big kits is great for the hobby but bad for the game, most games are now just about the big models and monsters. Unfortunately if you get an opponent with the wrong attitude you can be in for a dull game. Only last night I played against a guy with the 'right' attitude and we had a great game. The kind of game I always wanted to have and it has restored some faith in the game. On the next table a VC plyer had just one big (Mortis engine) kit against an OK player who just min/maxed on it all. There was almost no point in playing the game. Line up big things walk towards each other. Roll dice. Put models away.

The OK player 'won'. The VC player did not get any enjoyment out of it at all and kept looking over at us having a whale of a time with our fluffy armies.

I am all for the kits. I am all for big monsters. I think they are all gorgeous but I am against armies built entirely around them as individual warriors become an irrelevance. Monsters and big devices should be a rarity. Two per army at most. I have seen games where the board looks like a scene from Jurassic Park. Just monsters and things for them to eat.

It is not the game, rules or the kits that are at fault but some gamers really miss the point.

Transporting them is a pain. My mate has his held gingerly in his arms as I drive. Luckily I am a slow boring driver. Lol, :)

theunwantedbeing
04-02-2012, 13:35
The really big models need custom foam really (or small foam blocks).
Things the the new VC monstrous infantry aren't really any larger than the Platstic River trolls or minotaurs GW released, the winged ones just seem massive because they have big wings that give them a much larger sillouette.

Also the newer skeletons are smaller than the older ones (small enough to be skeletons of men) so that further adds to percieved size of the new models.

Obviously you get issues if a kit is simply too large in all directions for a thinner case and you will need a case which is big enough to make them fit to transport them safely.

lbecks
04-02-2012, 13:49
I really like the big plastic kits. I don't really like the big finecast kits because of the price and material. I can see why game players find them annoying because of all the delicate bits poking out everywhere and GW's current plastic holds detail well but is a little fragile.

boli
04-02-2012, 14:44
I love the extravagance of the bigger models ... *sometime* Right now my plague furnace WLC and HPA really stand out I mean the Plague furnace dwarfs the plaguemonks... which is great.

However my HE/WE army is a different matter Great eagles are almost as big as my old metal dragon my warhawk riders cover as much space as a unit of 20 seaguard.

Units or cheaper monsters *should* be smaller than the "big stuff"... my dragons shoudl be TWICE the size they are now.. and a giant should be similar. The issue is not the upscaling and more extravagant models... it is that the *really* big monsters shoudl be big... not just half a head taller.

Kuja
04-02-2012, 14:56
Banshees and Cairn Wraiths have always been bigger than common troops (not a lot bigger than the old skellies, but considering that the new skellies are a lot smaller, the difference becames even more notisable), at least since 6th edition, I don't know about previous editions. Also, they are characters now (the Cairn Wraiths were characters in 6th edition too) and GW characters tend to be huge when compared to common troops of the same type (to emphasis it's character status).

But, a very easy example of miniatures becaming bigger than before are cavalry units since the end of 6th edition (especially the horses), just take a look at the 6th edition chaos knights compared with the 7th edition ones... At first I didn't like it, but with the time, they grown on me, and in the end I think that it was a good decision to make them to look more impressive when fighting against infantry units.

Duke Ramulots
04-02-2012, 15:13
If anything GW scaling has been kind of silly for years, supposedly giant models like a Giant, were tiny. Now they are more in keeping with lore descriptions.

Hey now, I like my giant that is barely bigger than a river troll...lol

Marauder_chieftan
04-02-2012, 16:46
I don't think size is an issue, price is.

Sexiest_hero
04-02-2012, 20:52
That's what she said...... Sorry I say bring on more big units!

Bodysnatcher
04-02-2012, 21:33
GW need to sell rare earth magnets in store. The big kits need it to be collapsible.

The bearded one
04-02-2012, 21:40
large units of infantry, and big monsters. No problem here, can we have a lot more of this please?

The game itself is of a larger scale than it used to be. It becomes more enjoyable when the size increases as you have more things to move about, and plenty left even if some of your units get destroyed. My regular ogre opponent likes to play 3000 points, which is great, because instead of having a single big central unit (like a block of templeguard), something smaller on the side (block of saurus?) and some chaff and monster, you've got multiple larger units to work with.

Currently we're seeing far larger amounts of infantry running about than before, so I'm okay with seeing several large, extravagant monsters about. I was playing a game with my skaven today and to be honest the screaming bell and hellpit didn't even feel so enormous, while the 180 skaven infantry absorbed whole sections of the tables.

zak
04-02-2012, 21:48
I just don't see anything wrong with the new kits. Everyone that has been released has been great from the Lizardmen through to the VC. I personally can't wait to see what they release in the future.

Okuto
05-02-2012, 05:01
personally I hate the new vamp throne......how the feth am I suppose to transport that thing........let alone paint it......other than that the models prior to wobby manglar have been great.....well maybe not the spider simply due to annoyance of transporting it.....

My favorite so far is the sphinx....study...looks great and easy to transport...as long as you don't go for the crazy breakable tail option...

Gekiganger
05-02-2012, 06:27
I don't like the idea of token big things, units just rammed in to the army list so that each army has one. But provided they fit, I don't really mind.

Duke Ramulots
05-02-2012, 06:36
Do any of them not fit so far?

zak
05-02-2012, 10:41
Not in my opinion. Each have fitted well with the theme of the army and haven't looked out of place when alongside the other models.

There really isn't an easy way to transport most of the big gribblies. I use a shoe box with copious amounts of toilet tissue to pad it out.

yabbadabba
05-02-2012, 10:50
When I started wargaming there were no such things as carry cases. People used toolboxes and custom made cases to carry their models - shoe boxes were not uncommon, especially as you could easy transport entire tank armies in them at 15mm!

Part of the benefit GW has brought to the wargames masses is an increasing demand for proper carry cases and inserts for models. I fully expect that if GW carry on this drive with big gribblies in WFB then case insert manufacturers will follow, much like they did for 40K tanks.

BirchbarktheAncient
05-02-2012, 12:14
[The "gigantization" of the game was inevitable. GW has been desperately trying to "hook" anyone they can find into the hobby. I guess they feel that big, silly monsters and warmachines is the way to draw kids in. Personally, I could care less. I play demons so we aren't exactly scared of anything that comes our way. If people want to carry around oversized models and plastic junk that breaks at the slightest bending, go for it.

DaemonReign
05-02-2012, 12:32
I personally see no evidence that the general Scale of Warhammer is adrift. Virtually every army getting Monstrous Infantry/Cavalry and these "big kits" changes the silluette of the armies of course, but the basic troopers are not swelling up by any measure that I have noticed.
I think so far the additions to armies have been rather all right, tastefull you might say. For each new book that is being released I worry of course: When seeing picture of the Mangler Squig model I thought "what the hell", same thing with the Vargheist/Crypt Horror kit.. But to my great releif as soon as I held the models in my hand I was instantly sold on them.

So.. So far so good. I would say. But I do indeed worry. I don't think they should adhere to this new trend as some sort of dogma. There are armies about to be released where I see no possibility of fluffy/tastefull additions in the shape of Monstrous Stuff for example. Looking at you Dwarves.. Brettonia, The Empire, Wood Elves (not that they'll ever get a book to begin with *lol*) are other races where the thought of Monstrous MI/Cav makes me really uneasy.

Not saying it can't be done. But GW would have to think up stuff that nobody else has thought of, ever.

Then again the CovenThrone/Mortis Engine certainly proves that they do have creative minds in their design studio. So hopefully I won't have to puke all over Bear-cav and Steampunk Golems with the next Dwarf book. :)

The bearded one
05-02-2012, 12:39
There are armies about to be released where I see no possibility of fluffy/tastefull additions in the shape of Monstrous Stuff for example. Looking at you Dwarves.. Brettonia, The Empire, Wood Elves (not that they'll ever get a book to begin with *lol*) are other races where the thought of Monstrous MI/Cav makes me really uneasy.

Well, dwarfs can get airships, which have been featured quite consistently in art and stories, and recently animated statues have started appearing in the background of dwarf artwork.
Bretonnia, well, beats me..apart from a silly chapel on wheels, pulled by horses (or pushed by peasants?) and manned by grail knights I can't think of anything.
The empire used to have a warwagon in ye olden days, and could maybe incorporate kislevite bearriders as a rare choice.
Wood elves have big trees, but I hope they'll stick to something like the treemen and not invent some weird ass big treefused monster.

castlesmadeofsand
05-02-2012, 12:46
Something I always felt/ feel was wrong with the warhammer monsters is that they are not as big as they should be. Even now.

Something like the giant should be at least 1.5 times taller imo, whilst the HE dragon should be twice as big. I know this doesn't translate well into rules for smaller games, but the mortis engine thing looks to be a similar height to the giant. Which is just plain wrong imho.


Part of the reason why some of the (older) 'big' models don't look big is rank and file scale creep...


I like big things being big, like Dragons, Coven thrones or Giants. I am not so keen on scale creep though. The Isle of Blood Seaguard are an example of too big for what they represent. There is only so much a 20mm base should have to put up with.

which I agree with a lot.

the original rank and file single pose plastics (mid 90's) were pretty plain compared to metals but were of relatively consistent size. since then what they can do with plastic has improved greatly with multipart modes etc, however one of the issues of multipart is that it has increased the overall size of the sculpts. they have started to reverse some of this, e.g. the night goblins from 6th ed were much bigger than the new(er) ones, and apparently new skellies are smaller than previous editions. when it's a serious problem to rank up your carefully individualised multipart infantry (black orcs anyone?!) such that you have to limit their poses anyway you're loosing much of the benefit of mulitpart models in the first place. when you look at the old metals they packed in a lot of detail on a relatively (by today's standard) small model.

On coming back into the hobby over the last year or so I didn't like most of the new larger kits when i saw them, but can't deny that what GW have achieved with the kits is impressive. however they still need to work on rank and file plastics (infantry and cavalry) to work consistently on their current base sizes and pull back on the scale.

abdulaapocolyps
05-02-2012, 14:37
I don't overly mind them in theory.I don't buy anything directly from GW these days on principle of their prices but I like some of the bigger kits.the mortis engine /throne is too much for my tastes...I think it looks a bit OTT to be honest.
I play an almost entirely Maraurder dwarf army and now can't buy anything from the current line due to modern dwarfs being so utterly massive.
I don't dislike them per se,but I do think they are less charming than the older models.I could say that about all the lines too.
Just one quick note on mono pose plastics. One of the things I am most impressed with these days is the plastic kits.I think they are amazing... I had to paint up some old mono pose dwarfs from way back when plastic was white and couldn't believe how quickly I knocked them out. I remember thinking,as amazing as every model being unique is...when I need like 3 units of 40...I kinda mis mono pose a bit.

braindead1408
05-02-2012, 18:01
I would absolutely love wood elves to get stag cavalry. they would be great for an Orion wild rider army

Mr_Foulscumm
05-02-2012, 19:50
Bretonnia, well, beats me..apart from a silly chapel on wheels, pulled by horses (or pushed by peasants?) and manned by grail knights I can't think of anything.


Oh please please please! Let this happen! Pull harder peasants! Charge! :D

Harwammer
05-02-2012, 21:27
Just one quick note on mono pose plastics. One of the things I am most impressed with these days is the plastic kits.I think they are amazing... I had to paint up some old mono pose dwarfs from way back when plastic was white and couldn't believe how quickly I knocked them out. I remember thinking,as amazing as every model being unique is...when I need like 3 units of 40...I kinda mis mono pose a bit.

The monopose dwarfs were good for this, ironically, because they were so plain. Large, flat details so a few quick swipes of the bush and the model was done. This also made it much easier to free hand details on. If you wanted them to have a metal breastplate or mail sleeves you could paint it like that and it wouldn't look like metallic cloth. I've also seen the shawls painted as messy viking hair. Very adaptable models!

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
06-02-2012, 18:31
Some things get bigger, but other model get smaller.

Giant and trolls got bigger but for example gobbos got smaller with their 7ed kit