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Balerion
05-02-2012, 06:30
When a unit of Bat Swarms is destroyed in a multiple combat does their ASF penalty immediately cease and desist

An example from a game I played tonight:

I had a Coven Throne + Bat Swarms + Zombies in a combat against Swordmasters. The Handmaidens and Vampire rolled first. Swordmasters were up next. If those Swordmasters who are in contact with the Swarms choose to roll first and remove the Swarms, do the next Swordmasters to roll (against the Zombies or the Coven Throne) immediately lose the ASF penalty? Or would they retain it, since it was applied at the same initiative step in which the Swarms were removed?

Zentdiam
05-02-2012, 07:40
It all happens at the same initiative step so the rest still have the penalty.

Mostream
05-02-2012, 08:14
Like Zentdiam said.

I'm sure the BRB says something along the lines of "always strike last units strike simultaneously". so that only confirms that they still suffer from the ASL.

T10
05-02-2012, 18:26
An example from a game I played tonight:

I had a Coven Throne + Bat Swarms + Zombies in a combat against Swordmasters.

I find that extremely hard to believe as no-one in their right mind would use bat swarms: Pics or it didn't happen! ;)

Still, the rules don't seem to address the issue of changes to initiative during the combat phase. I can only assume that models will not lose the ability to fight (nor gain the ability to fight multiple times!) just because their Initiative changes. I guess there are two options here:

1. Work out initiative at the start of the combat phase and stick with it even if the models fighting suddenly gain or lose initiative.

2. Work through the initiative steps as normal. If a model suddenly advances to an earlier step (e.g. by gaining ASF) he strikes /now/. If a model suddenly loses initiative he must wait until his new initiative comes up, assuming that he ha not already made his attacks.

The latter seems more flexible.

T10
05-02-2012, 18:32
Like Zentdiam said.

I'm sure the BRB says something along the lines of "always strike last units strike simultaneously". so that only confirms that they still suffer from the ASL.

Models on the same Initiative count strike simultaneously (p. 50), ASF and ASL provide no exception to this. You might consider the two to represent Initiative counts 11 and 0 respectively as the former preceeds I 10 and the latter follows I 1.

Scalebug
05-02-2012, 23:46
For the sake of avoiding wierdness, I'd say the Initiative step is defined before you start rolling attacks for anyone in the combat, and doesn't change that turn...

Otherwise, while situational, we could have things like an I5 and an I6 model fighting something that puts ASL on both of them, but the I5 guy carries a ASF-granting sword, cancelling it... he kills the ASL-causer, allowing his buddy to strike at his ordinary initiative... only that has already passed...

Blkc57
06-02-2012, 05:57
Actually I have a question in this that came up one day in another game. Swordmasters have ASF regardless of the weapon they use in this case great weapons. I understand that as per the Speed of Asuryan rules. But what happens to them when that ASF is removed? Whether it is done by a web flinger a VC rule or something else? Normally ASF and ASL cancel each other out and the unit strikes at Init, but in the case of Sword masters they are still wielding great weapons, so shouldn't they now be subject to the limitation placed on them by their weapons now that Speed of Asuryan is removed? Or does the rule still apply that ASL can only be given once, and thus HE just simply ignore all ASL effects from weapons?

T10
06-02-2012, 10:03
If a model with Always Strikes First (ASF) loses this ability then he no longer has it. If he also has Always Strikes Last (ASL) then it applies in full because there is no ASF to cancel it. Obvious, really.

It seems to me that the Speed of Asuryan (SA) is tied to the ASF ability, meaning: SA provides a full upgrade from ASL to ASL. If you don't get ASF then you get nothing.

I'm not aware of any special rules that remove ASF without also granting ASL.

-T10

Moses
06-02-2012, 11:56
I thought that Speed of Asuryan means that not only do they have ASF, they ignore ASL from great weapons. Otherwise things like Swordmasters would strike in initiative order.

T10
06-02-2012, 12:09
I'm sure the warseer community can provide a quick look-up as to wether it is "ASF regardless of weapon" or "weapons lose ASL".

-T10

sorberec
07-02-2012, 19:34
text from the HE book:


All High Elves have the special rule "Always Strikes First", regardless of the weapon they are wielding