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Merellin
07-02-2012, 16:58
So I was thinking about Daemons of Chaos and they seem like a fun army to play with so I wanted to ask, Are they fun to play? Are they are over powerd as people claim? (I hope not) Are they fun to fight against?

T10
07-02-2012, 17:29
Daemons are most fun if you like to win without having to work too hard. It only takes a minimal effort to gain a draw, and that's a pretty good starting point for a win.

If you want to work hard for your wins, Beastmen are fighting an up-hill battle these days.

But they must be crushed.

Mercilessly.

ElBeaver
07-02-2012, 17:40
what is so OP about DoC? I am new here and the search did not turn up any whine threads :)

Merellin
07-02-2012, 17:52
I'm not wanting a real hard fight to win (Then I would have continued my old Wood Elves that I originally started with.. I hated that army.. XD) I just want something that isent too over powerd. And I heard alot of talk about Daemons being realy over powerd (Some time back when ever Mat Ward was mentioned people raged about how he made Daemons realy over powerd and stuff) I just want a army thats fun to play and fun to face (So it dosent make my opponents rage and refuse to play..)

Bingo the Fun Monkey
07-02-2012, 19:12
Fun to play and fun to face? Orcs and Goblins would be your best bet.

Daemons are very unique, but unfortunately, one misses out on a lot of the other aspects of the game.

Merellin
07-02-2012, 19:33
Well, We already have a Orcs & Goblins played and i'm not realy intrested in Orcs & Goblins. My main army are Skaven and I'm wanting to start Daemons of Chaos, Ogre Kingdoms or Dark Elves. Currently leaning towards Daemons of Chaos. Thats why I am asking if the Daemons of Chaos are fun to play and face.. And what aspects of the game to Daemons miss out on..?

Gooner
07-02-2012, 19:38
Deamons COULD be fun to play/ face. But most deamon armies are not. They are one of the strongest armies if u take certain things you will probably want to take. Go ogres they are fun to play and face and not goobie at all.

stainawarjar
07-02-2012, 19:53
Well, We already have a Orcs & Goblins played and i'm not realy intrested in Orcs & Goblins. My main army are Skaven and I'm wanting to start Daemons of Chaos, Ogre Kingdoms or Dark Elves. Currently leaning towards Daemons of Chaos. Thats why I am asking if the Daemons of Chaos are fun to play and face.. And what aspects of the game to Daemons miss out on..?

None really, they have some of the best units in the game both for manouvreing, magic, shooting and combat.

If you want a daemon army that's playable but not ridiculously overpowered, go for a mono-god army! Just not Nurgle, like me, as that feels like trying to hammer in a nail with a paper towel.

Merellin
07-02-2012, 20:00
Dark Elves dropped to the bottom of the list of the three armies i'm considering because almost everyone seemed to think they where the most overpowerd army in Warhammer Fantasy at the moment (Plus their special are almost all metal..), and a few said that Daemons arent nearly as over powerd in 8'th edition as they where in 7'th edition and the armies they where the strongest against got stronger eavening it out a bit..

I'm just horribly bad at chosing, I want both Ogres and Daemons..

Dominatrix
07-02-2012, 20:17
@ OP

Don't make the mistake of choosing based on the perceived power level of an army. These things have a tendency to change every edition. If I were you I would look at the model ranges of both Ogres and Daemons and decide based on what I would like to paint, collect and field on the table. Collecting an army is a significant investment in time and money so you might as well get all the mileage you can from it. And by that I mean continuing to play no matter how weak or strong an army is considered.

Brother Muninn
07-02-2012, 20:32
@ OP

Don't make the mistake of choosing based on the perceived power level of an army. These things have a tendency to change every edition. If I were you I would look at the model ranges of both Ogres and Daemons and decide based on what I would like to paint, collect and field on the table. Collecting an army is a significant investment in time and money so you might as well get all the mileage you can from it. And by that I mean continuing to play no matter how weak or strong an army is considered.

Agreed. In my experience You'll spend more time collecting, modeling, and painting your army than you will actually playing them. I actually started my Daemons army as a result of painting up a few squads for a now-defunct D&D game (see my sig). I can't attest to Fantasy, but in 40k it's a quirky list that takes a lot of finesse to make wok.

~Muninn

Merellin
07-02-2012, 20:33
Well, I like both Daemons and Ogres.. No idea what one I like best... And the main reason I dont want anything too over powerd is cus I dont want the people I play against to feel like they cant win and thus not want to play against me.. Oh wells, If I pick Daemons is there anything to avoid? Is there anything thats just too strong, Like mayhaps Bloodcrushers of Khorne? If I pick Daemons I know I wouldent run any Nurgle stuff. Not a fan of Nurgle.

Chumbalaya
07-02-2012, 21:11
@ OP

Don't make the mistake of choosing based on the perceived power level of an army. These things have a tendency to change every edition. If I were you I would look at the model ranges of both Ogres and Daemons and decide based on what I would like to paint, collect and field on the table. Collecting an army is a significant investment in time and money so you might as well get all the mileage you can from it. And by that I mean continuing to play no matter how weak or strong an army is considered.

+1 this, a thousand times.


Well, I like both Daemons and Ogres.. No idea what one I like best... And the main reason I dont want anything too over powerd is cus I dont want the people I play against to feel like they cant win and thus not want to play against me.. Oh wells, If I pick Daemons is there anything to avoid? Is there anything thats just too strong, Like mayhaps Bloodcrushers of Khorne? If I pick Daemons I know I wouldent run any Nurgle stuff. Not a fan of Nurgle.

Ignore the whiners, the majority of players are normal people and won't get their panties in a twist over your army of choice.

Daemons are a fun army, lots of options, lots of variety and all the folks crying about them are suffering ******** held over from 7th ed.

Lordy
07-02-2012, 21:12
Daemons are no more powerful than Skaven or DE are.

Don't take more than 6 Flamers and leave the special characters alone and it's a pretty damn nice book in 8th.

Merellin
07-02-2012, 21:22
Well, I cant ignore the fact that the people I play with dont want to play cus I am too powerful simply because, I have 4 people to play with and thats it.. No gaming stores arround here an gaming stores over here are just stores, No tables to play at. And there is nly 2 official GW stores in the country and while you can play at those, You have to bring someone to play with and pay for the use of the table.. (Plus the closest GW store is like 6 or 7 hours drive from here and I dont have a car..)

Anyways, I'm leaning towards Daemons as they have a more unique look and feel to the models then the Ogres have..

Oh, and we dont play with special characters. 3 of the other 4 players dont like special characters in Warhammer Fantasy..

ElBeaver
07-02-2012, 21:33
just because you can build a DoC army to be OP doesn't mean you will do so, and certainly not if it is a concern for you.

Merellin
07-02-2012, 21:51
I prefer to build armies for fun rather then for power. ^_^ Is there anything I should be wary of with Daemons of Chaos, Other then keeping the Flamers to 6 or less? I am leaning more and more towards Daemons..

thesheriff
07-02-2012, 21:51
I like daemons. In my experience, they are a cool army, that can have very strong themes, and that does well on the tabletop. Building a daemon army based on looks is enough to warrant your live for them.

However, as you mentioned you have a limited base of people who you will play against, I would suggest, for yours and your opponents enjoyment, you limit your army in some form to avoid "power-builds" (ie; armies that only contain the most competative things in the army book). There are two ways of doing this;

Firstly, you could not take/cap certain units. This is a way to avoid overpowered units in bulk. I would list these as;
Skulltaker
The Masque
Heralds of Tzeentch w/ Master of Sorcery
Hordes of Bloodletters with heralds
36+ strong horror units as Lv4 wizards
Flamers
Fiends

Secondly, you could pick a theme. Now, with daemons, this usually means a god. You already said you don't like Nurgle. So picking either one or two out of either Khorne, Slasnesh and Tzeentch will stop you pick-and-mixing the best parts of each of the gods. Now, fortunatly (or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it), nurgle has probably the weakest selection of units in the current edition. Most power-builds contain units soley from the three other gods. Now, I would suggest this route, as not only does it give your army depth, it lets you take those powerful units. For example, my khorne daemon army does contain hordes of bloodletters and skulltaker. But, it also includes more balanced options, such as flesh hounds and bloodcrushers. It's still capable of wining, but is fun to play with and I have ultimate moral justification that "it is themed", where as some of your co-gamers may not have themed armies.

So, to sum up, you should play daemons. If you like the models and the army, and you use the mantra "everything in moderation" when building your army lists to play your friends, you should have fun with them.

thesheriff

w3rm
07-02-2012, 21:54
Without special characters, 7+ flamers and spamming sieren song Daemons are no more over powered than dark elves or skaven.

ArtificerArmour
07-02-2012, 21:54
I play mono slaanesh, and will probably play mono nurgle too in the future. Daemons are four books in one really - play mono and you'll have a great army.

Stephanavich
07-02-2012, 21:56
If you want to work hard for your wins, Beastmen are fighting an up-hill battle these days.


I feel sorry for you. Either:
a) You are gullible, and this statement is based purely on what "the internet" thinks.
b) You play in a hugely competitive environment where everything is abused, but for some reason doesn't use ETC comp.
c) You play against idiots who can't play their army.

Sure, Beastmen have some crappy choices (namely their Special Chars, Rares and Lore of the Wild), but besides them they are pretty good. There are a variety of competitive builds that can compete with the top4 well (Mino-heavy, Centigor-heavy, Shamanstone, Bestigor-spam, S4T4Gor horde) but non-abusive lists tend to do extremely well with ETC comp in place! When a BSB is within range pretty much the entire army gets Infinite Hatred, and their Characters are among the best fighters in the game.

Back to your question though.
Daemons can be OP if you have a mainly Khorne list but with several Tzeentch Heralds spamming hexes/buffs on the inevitable hordes of Bloodletters with a Greater Daemon killing anything that looks at it funny. But with a fluffy list (ie, Mono-God) or a balanced list (roughly 25% spread of gods) then they can be quite weak. The book is badly written, it must be said.

The most fun army I've ever played with and against was a Night Goblin horde army (4 blocks of 100NG, 1 bus of 50NG with 5 lords, trolls, and several lv2s).
The unpredictable-ness of the fanatics, and the vastness of the hordes (without the annoying OP stat-line of the Skaven), meant that it was really enjoyable, but a tactical challenge.

The most boring I've played against is probably the TG/Slann bunker. ~40 TG with a Slann means a huge amount of S5 attacks, and the unit is Unbreakable, generally with 4+R 4+AS and T8. Skink Skirmishers and Stegadons pick out "weak" units.

Merellin
07-02-2012, 22:00
Oh! How do the Pink Horror mage thing work? I know that a group of Pink Horrors counts as a mage, But What level of mage are they and how many spells do they have and stuff? And for the models, I like the Daemonettes (Though I liked the previous ones better.. XD) and Bloodletters, Screamers, Seekers, Flamers and Fiends. The Bloodcrushers seems nice too, but I dunno, they seem a bit powerful.. And I also tend to not use hordes much, so I dont make any huge hordes. Do Daemon units work in groups of 20?

lordfeint
07-02-2012, 23:51
If you already play Skaven, then I'd suggest you buy BOTH Deamons and Ogres. They're among, if not, the cheapest 2 armies to collect, and very likely cheaper together than a similar point Skaven force alone (IoB included).

If you grab a Battalion, a special/rare unit and a couple heroes of each army you could play a few low points games and see between playing and modelling which of the 2 (if not both) you want to stick with.

That said, if you want just one, go for the one that appeals to you more.

Now that I've got that out of the way, I'd pick Deamons were it me.

Doommasters
08-02-2012, 02:05
Daemons are pretty boring to play IMO. If you like to win and field a small number of units Daemons might be for you.

Flamers and Bloodletters are really really really good value for points.

Merellin
08-02-2012, 10:51
I want both Daemons and Ogre Kingdoms.. So hard to pick one.. Maybe I should just get both, Slowly building them up a few boxes at the time.. XD Or atleast get the books for both and have a closer look at them..

What do you use for Herals for the Daemons of Chaos? since there is no official models for them. I was thinking Warriors of Chaos Sorcerer Lord (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440108a&prodId=prod1250027a) or Warriors of Chaos Tzeentch Sorcerer Lord (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440108a&prodId=prod1250028a) for a Herald of Tzeentch, Maybe The Masque? (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440042a&prodId=prod1170240) for Herald of Slaanesh.. And maybe Skulltaker? (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440042a&prodId=prod1160089a) for a Herald of Khrone... And a Nurgle Champion with Fly Head (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat500024a&prodId=prod1690011) for Herald of Nurgle, If I ever want to use one of those.. XD But, Does anyone have better sugestions for Herald of Slaanesh and Khorne?

Spider-pope
08-02-2012, 12:32
I want both Daemons and Ogre Kingdoms.. So hard to pick one.. Maybe I should just get both, Slowly building them up a few boxes at the time.. XD Or atleast get the books for both and have a closer look at them..
?

You could always roll a die to decide :P.

I play daemons myself, and i've never had any complaints about my army being overpowered. It's ultimately just a case of self restraint. Any list can be turned into a terrible army to play against if you overindulge in certain units.


- play mono and you'll have a great army.

But don't catch mono. Thats really not that much fun.

Merellin
08-02-2012, 18:55
So hard to deside, If I cant deside I'l just get both armies, Slowly building them up a couple of boxes at the time.. XD

So, For the Daemon players.. How does the Pink Horror is mage thing work? What level are they and how many spells do they have and stuff? And what do you use for Khorne and Slaanesh Heralds?

simonbeard
08-02-2012, 19:20
I play mono slaanesh, and will probably play mono nurgle too in the future. Daemons are four books in one really - play mono and you'll have a great army.

In my opinion, playing mono is really the only way to have a neat army fluff-wise anyway. The four gods of chaos playing well together? Not likely. Do demons from different gods have to make animosity rolls like Orcs and Goblins?

FLUEVOG
22-07-2012, 15:20
Have you asked your friends which army they would rather play against?

Jind_Singh
22-07-2012, 15:39
I played Daemons hard core in 7th - have just over 10k - but they were fine.

The most fun I had playing with - and people against - was my Khorne army - no one had an issue as lack of shooting and magic meant they were easy to compensate for.

I ran all the Khorne units bar Skulltaker - but I did use Karanak the hound from time to time - nothing op about him at all - and he's expensive upgrade!

Leth Shyish'phak
22-07-2012, 16:02
So, For the Daemon players.. How does the Pink Horror is mage thing work? What level are they and how many spells do they have and stuff? And what do you use for Khorne and Slaanesh Heralds?

Horrors get wizard levels depending on how many models are left in the unit. Can't remember the exact numbers, but its something like 6+ for level 1, 16+ for level 2, etc; as they lose models throughout the game, they lose wizard levels, and then for each wizard level they have a set spell; a level 1 unit has flickering fire, level 2 has flickering fire and gift of chaos, etc. For Khorne Heralds, I like using the old metal Bloodletters, they don't look too great with a full unit of them, but when they're on their own they look like quite nice character models alongside the new ones.

Urgat
22-07-2012, 20:12
Apparently, they're being updated in the next White Dwarf. Rumors have it that the soul grinder will even get in the list.

Juicy21
22-07-2012, 20:54
just play deamons there no where near as op as they used to be and even then they where as good as the player/dice wants them to be.. an skilled general can win with even an soft army.. saying that makes me want to delete it al:P i never won with my brets vs deamons at 2k+ :O.. did heroickillingblow a keeper of secrets once.. fun times... anyway back on toppic...

Play what u like...if you want to play deamons just play them...

what armies does your gamegroup play?

Maoriboy007
22-07-2012, 21:32
Demons are still pretty brutal even in this edition, its more that they gain less from multiple horror units in the magic phase and have to gear more towards the steadfast mechanic instead of unit destroying MSU units, they still certainly have the tools to do so and still have the best break test mechanic in the game.

Quaki
22-07-2012, 22:57
I play both friendly games and tournaments in real competitive enviroment. I used to play Dwarfs for few years but realised that no matter how much I love this army, playing them started to getting me bored. Just M3 Infantry and shooting wasn't enough fun.
I really needed some change in the game.
So, this winter I started collecting and playing Daemons and gotta say - that was a good choice. Choice that I would have never made in 7th edition (ohhh I hated DoCh so much!) but now, in 8th it's just really interesting quite strong, but not overpowered army (we don't use special characters). I would certainly put it behind DE, Skaven, new CD and Ogres (few Mourfangs, 1-2 Ironblasters, Greedy Fist and bunch of Ironguts - your no-brain way to win! :D ) and somewhere around power level of new VC and Empire.
Don't listen to guys complaining about how op it is - it really was but in 7th edition, so more then 2 years ago.
With 4 gods and 4 basically 4 different ways of how their troops work you get quite a lot options of making interesting and playable roosters. You don't get so many Gifts and Icons as magic items in Rulebook, but still there's a lot of interesting choices to take. And if you don't want anything op in them, just avoid specials (Kairos, Masque and Skulltaker), Siren Song and hordes of Daemonettes with 6-dice Mindrazor cast on them ;)

Lord Dan
23-07-2012, 07:33
I'm not wanting a real hard fight to win (Then I would have continued my old Wood Elves that I originally started with.. I hated that army.. XD) I just want something that isent too over powerd. And I heard alot of talk about Daemons being realy over powerd (Some time back when ever Mat Ward was mentioned people raged about how he made Daemons realy over powerd and stuff) I just want a army thats fun to play and fun to face (So it dosent make my opponents rage and refuse to play..)

So to clarify, your army needs to be:

-Strong, but not so strong that your opponents call you out on it.
-Weak enough that you won't get bored, but not so weak that you could lose frequently.
-Weak enough that your opponents think they have a chance of winning, but not so weak as to actually give them an increased chance of winning.
-Challenging to play with, but not to the point where it decreases your chances of winning.
-Fun to play with, though not so fun that it hinders the army's reliability.
-Fun to play against, though only to the extent that people don't hate playing against it.

Let's put all of this into my trusty What-Army-Should-I-Play-o-Tron:

Boop...boop...beep...boop

And the answer is:

Daemons using Beastmen models as proxies. You only reveal to your opponent that you're actually playing Daemons once you enter close combat.

Enjoy.

DaemonReign
23-07-2012, 08:33
Don't pick your army based on percieved Power Level.
Daemons Went from 'amongst the 3 top armies' to middle ground with the implementation of 8th Ed core mechanics.
There's no telling what will happen when we actually get a new Army book:
They might bump Daemons up to the top again, or continue to nerf them - and for me either is fine but I'd prefer (of course) is simply some carefull concideration to internal balance because that's the only thing Daemons really need:
Master of Sorcery should be twice as expensive, Bloodletters should be more expensive, the Masque and Great Icon of Despair should pretty much be cut in half.
On the flip side there are actually lots of stuff in the book that are in dire need of buffs (the Daemon Prince, Beasts of Nurgle, Screamers, to name but a few that won't be controversial even on this Forum..)

Anyway, Daemons (with their current 7th Ed book) arn't even near the position of top-dogs in this Edition. There's at least 2-3 7th Ed books that doubtlessly outperform DoC (Skaven & DE for starters) and a couple of the 8th Ed Army Books are at least on par (if not better) by comparisson as well (despite DoC retaining uncalibrated Casting Values for their Lores etcetera) - like Ogres, like Vampire Counts, and Empire.

Due to rather poor internal balance it's true that you'll have an easy time picking out the best choices from the book, however. Hordes of Bloodletters, supported by MoS Tzeentch Heralds, with the added Flavor of Fiends and Flamers for chaff/support. With the possible addition of the Masque in combo with the Great Icon of Despair I'll concede you're probably pushing your karma, but aside of this the only reason people whine about Flamers and Bloodletters is the simple fact that internal competition is so weak in this edition (Daemonettes are just as overcosted as BLs are undercosted, Beasts of Nurgle are a lot worse than Flamers are good.. and so on).

So yeah go ahead and start them, just do your buddies the favor of not relying on stuff that is bound to be deleted or nerfed into the ground anyway as soon as the Designer's gets a chance. :)

Nymie_the_Pooh
23-07-2012, 13:53
Have you asked your friends which army they would rather play against?
This. While random strangers can help, if the vast majority of your games will be played against the same four people then they are the ones you need to get opinions from since you are concerned about how they might react to you change in armies.

Since all of your games are with the same people then campaigns can be used to help balance things out. Another option is to balance things out amongst yourselves if you find anything game breaking within your group.

DarkMark
24-07-2012, 09:58
So hard to deside

Go deamons. They're getting some new models very soon, can be used in fantasy AND 40k if you base correctly i.e 2 for 1 goodness, and are a modellers dream.

There are lots of cool ogre themes, but I can never get past the moobs:shifty:, and with regard to power level they're way up there currently.

Bingo the Fun Monkey
24-07-2012, 15:57
I think you should play what you want. People who won't play you just because of your army choice are not worth playing against anyway. I'll throw down with some Daemons with my OnG. I'll expect to win, too :D

Urgat
24-07-2012, 16:02
Well there you go:
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?340923-2012-releases&p=6340984&viewfull=1#post6340984
New minis.

Why
25-07-2012, 01:29
Soulgrinder, now daemons have a improved hellcannon.