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Feefait
07-02-2012, 16:33
Ogres Kingdoms Vs Vampire Counts

2500 pts

Meeting Engagement


For this game I was an outsider observer. OK seems to be king of the hill in our group right now and our VC player just got the new book and wanted to put it through it’s paces. I am not sure I have all the army details correct, but they are close. Hopefully the generals will correct any mistakes I make in the lists.

The Armies:

Ogres
Slaughtermaster: 4+ ward (In IG’s), Crown of Command
Bruiser BSB: Armor of destiny (with 4+ ward), great weapon (In IG’s)
Firebelly (In Bulls)
9 Ogres w/ ironfists, Full Comm
8 Ironguts: Full command, Standard of Discipline
3 x 1 Sabretusks
3 Mournfangs: banner of flamey attacks
3 Mournfangs
Thundertusk


Vampires
Lvl1 Vampire Lord with Lance, Nightmare, Red Fury, ASF, 1+ Armor save, Negate weapon strength bonus power
Lvl 2 Necro with Dispel Scroll
Lvl 2 Necro
2 x 35 Skeletons, Full Command
2 x 40 Zombies
39 Grave Guard w/+1 to hit banner
5 Blood Knights
2 x 5 dire Wolves
2 x 1 Spirit Hosts
5 hexwraiths
Corpse Cart

I rolled the scenario and got Meeting Engagement for them. Probably the worst possible scenario for the poor VC’s. On top of that without fail the VC player always sets up first and always loses first turn. The trend held true this game.
Terrain had little effect on the game, but we had a couple mysterious forests just off center into the deployment zones, a Temple of Skulls on the far right and an Misty Swamp in the near left corner.

Set up went as follows:

Sabre1 Sabre2 MFang1 Bulls TTusk IGuts Shorn MFangs2 Sabre3


Spirit1 Zombie1 Skellies1 GGuard BKnights Spirit2 Skellie2 Zombie2 Hwraiths
Necro1 CCart Necro2


As mentioned the Ogres got first turn, so things went from bad to worse for the VC’s. The Vamps did set up slightly back from the frontline, but with some decent rolls the Ogres were still within first turn charge range. Also, the VC completely forgot about his wolves until 2 days later. lol


OK 1

The Ogres mainly just shimmy up, surprisingly. I think he was trying to set up one good round of charges from the entire army, and set up some redirects. Sabre1 moved up and angled to move the Spirit Host on the right towards the left were they to charge. Sabre1 moved up to block a combo charge on the Mournfangs from the zombies and skellies. The Mournfangs themselves just came up a couple inches. The Sabretusk on the far side moved to keep the Hexwraiths form getting off a charge on anyone else.
The only real charges was on the far right. The StoneHorn and Mournfangs declared charges on the Skellies2 and Zombie2 respectively. They both needed a 7, buth the lumbering Stonehorn was weighed down but it’s gigantor horns and only rolled 4”, coming up short and moving ahead 2”. The Mournfangs however were awesome as ever and slammed directly into the poor, poor zombies.


Magic

Roll was 6+1 with 1 channel for the Ogres
The firebelly attempted a Flamestorm on the Grave Guard with a 14, but the VC’s dispelled it with all his dice. That gave the Ogre player a free Bull Gorger with 2 dice on the Ogres. He let the other 3 dice disappear in to the realm of wasted dice, not casting anything else.


Shooting

The Thundertusk opens up on the Corpse Cart. By that I mean he gets a lucky shot with the Bolt thrower spear thingy and does 2 wounds.

Combat:

Icky. The only real combat was the Mournfangs v. the zombies. The Fangs got 6 impact hits, doing 5 wounds. Rank 1 gone. 10 attacks form ogres hit 8 more times, killing 7. Rank 2 gone. The cats themselves were unprepared and only hit 7 out of 12 times. They wounded 5 more times, taking out yet another rank. This did leave some zombies to strike back in zombie fury. They hit 5 times, wounding 2x! 2 armor saves prevented any damage. The cats then stomped 3 more zombies back into the earth. Another rank gone. In the end they did 20 wounds, plus standard plus charge and completely wiped out the 40 zombies in 1 turn. They overran into a very poorly placed Necromancer. In all fairness the VC figured at least 1 zombie would survive. Still, heck of a risk to take.


Vampire 1

Considering the amount of damage that could have been done it looked alright for the Vampires. They were going to dictate some charges. The OK player had done a good job setting up redirects though. On the right the Hexwraiths had no choice but to roll through the Sabretusk as a charge would have angled them past the battle lines. Of course they could have charged, wiped them out and reformed but hindsight and all that. Going right to left then… Skeletons charge the Stone horn, needing a 7 and rolling a 9. Blood Knights are going to charge the Thundertusk but with the set up they are likely to hit the Ironguts or Bulls as as well so decide to just hit the Ironguts and take out the Slaughtermaster. Plan is the Vamp Lord can easily take out the Ogre general. Needing a 7 they roll a 9 as well, and the main combat of the game is underway. The Grave Guard charge the Bulls, clipping the Thundertusk and getting a dual combat. Skellies1 hit the Mournfangs – the Vamp player wanted to get the zombie sin as well but the Sabre right in front of them prevented the proper manouevering so they got stuck charging the Sabre. And finally the Spirit Host 1 charge the last Sabre.
The Hexwraiths move through the far right Sabre, killing it with 3 w’s. Spirit Host 2 moves out of the woods in the center and up next to the Ig’s.

Magic

1 + 1 with no channels. Oops.

The only spell attempted is Raise Dead from the Necro in the center but it gets dispelled on a 7 v 11.


Combat

The Sabretusk kills 3 zombies, but is eaten up nom nom nom in return. They reform to hit the Mournfangs next turn and support the skeletons. The Spririt Host kills it’s Sabre as well, setting up again to go after the Mournfangs. As you’ve probably noticed after what the Fangs did to the zombies the VC is suitably nervous. Hoenstly, there’s nothing in his army to take them out except possibly the Grave Guard and that would be a 50/50 shot.
Moving to the far right the Mournfangs impact the necro to death with 7 hits. Didn’t even bother rolling wounds. We now also found out that THIS Mournfang unit had flaming attacks with the banner, which had not been revealed for some reason in the previous combat. Yes, I know. Seriously affected what the VC player had done with the Hexwraiths, but too late now. There went the Vamps only dispel scroll and the last chance he had to save a flank. The Mourns reformed to charge the wide open hexwraiths next turn. With the flaming banner the ethereal protection the Vamp player had counted on was nullified and there would be no stopping them, not even slowing them down. That made the center combats even more vital. The Vamp’s needed to break the center in less than 2 turns or game would be over.

In the case of Skeletons2 v. Stonehorn they attacked simultaneously. Skeletons get 5 hits but no wounds, Stonehorn + Ogres totaled 12 wounds coming back, but there were 3 parry saves and left only 3 skeletons to crumble. He tarpit there had worked for at least one turn, but with no caster over there to raise them they were going to go down quickly.

Deciding it was important to get rid of the ASL bubble the VC player went with the Grave Guard combat first. The Firebelly started with a breath weapon attack, managing only 5 hits and 3 wounds but the Guard saved 1. He failed to hit with any basic attacks from the Firebelly though. The Bulls were just under average with 7 out of 14 hitting. He did get 5 wounds though. The Thundertusk hit 2 out of 4 but only wounded once. The ogres on the Tusk only managed 1 wound after 5 hits, 2 w’s and an armor save.

The Grave Guard opened up on the Thundertusk and ogres. 9 attacks on the monster hit 6 and wounded 3. 22 Attacks on the ogres hit 19(!!) times, wounding 17 times. Only 3 parry saves saw a bunch of ogres chopped to bits. The total of stomps and thunder stomps only killed 4 more. This left the Ogres down by 6. Both units broke. The Guard pursued the ogres, catching them but going far enough to hit the Thunder as well, killing that. Things were looking good in the middle at least.

In the most important combat the Blood Knights had charged the Ironguts, hoping to destroy the Slaughtermaster. With the Thundertusk now gone it seemed he had a chance. The Vamp Lord started right out attacking the Slaughtermaster, but only hit 3 times, doing 2 wounds. He then Red Furied another. And another. And another. Then the Ogre player revealed he had a ward save. Sigh. Am cool with keeping items hidden. It’s how we do it. But once an item has been or should be used it needs to be revealed. Bottom line. So we went all the way back to the initial 2 wounds, which were both saved and so no Red Fury. The Ogre front line was Champion/General/Bsb so there were no attacks against Ironguts. I really hate that ‘rule’. 4 attacks on the champion killed him though. 10 attacks on the BSB only did 4 wounds, 3 of which were saved by armor of Destiny ward. The BSB took a wound in the end, but doing 1 a turn wasn’t going to work. The Ogres struck back, throwing a few attacks at the Vamp lord but failing to do any wounds. The Bruiser and Ironguts did manage to kill 2 Blood Knights though and win by 1, crumbling another. That leaves the Lord with only 2 knights to support him and little chance of hurting that SM.

We went to move to the Skellies versus the Mournfangs. We then remember the Nightmares never attacked in the last combat. We went back, but the OK player would only allow the remaining horses to attack – not those that would have been alive at the time. I only mention this because it was a silly thing and we let him know he was kind of being an **** about it. He ended up letting them all attack and ended up taking a wound, tying combat and preserving a Knight. I know this sounds like it was a bad turn for the OK player but just wait.

Anyway the skeletons try to overwhelm the Mournfangs on the left, but it was not to be. They managed 5 hits but could not wound. The Ogres countered with 3 hits, 3 wounds, the Cats hit 5 times with 5 wounds. The Skellies did manage an amazing 3 parry saves though. Even though stomps killed 3 more. The Ogre player was hitting and wounding like a beast. More skellies return to dust.

So at the end of 1 the vampire counts have lost a unit of zombies, a necro and half the blood knights and a half unit of skeletons. He had won the center (kind of) but both flanks were crumbling quickly as some amazing rolls and nice positioning by the ogres were winning the day. It also looked like the SM was all but untouchable.

The Vampires had lost the power of the charge and were losing ranks at a rapid pace. You just cannot out combat Ogres with this Vampire set up, so things looked very good for the Ogres.

Editors note: I lost my lost 2 sheets of notes, so the rest is all memory, so there won’t be a recount of actual rolls unless I know for sure.


Ogre 2

The repositioned Mournfangs on the right charged the Hexwraiths but everything else was engaged.

Magic:

6+5 The ogres pretty much had free reign here. The vamp player through a lot of dice into dispelling Toothcracker, but let Trollguts go free. He figured it
would be easier to get by the 4+ save then the +1 toughness and stubborn.

Combat

Mournfangs on right predictably destroy the hexwraiths and turn back towards the center on the reform. The Stonehorn and skellies continue at each other, but once again neither one breaks free. Next turn the Mournfangs will be coming in and ending that though.
On the left the Mournfangs finish off their skeletons, having only taken 1 wound in 2 turns of combat.
Back to the center the Vampires have a good round, killing the a couple more ogres and only losing 1 Knight. They failed to wound either the SM or BSB though. In the end it was another tie. Time was ticking.


Vampire 2

The vampire player kind of lost any sense of his plan here. From the beginning the plan had been to use the ethereal units to distract and tie up the mournfangs and monsters while overwhelming the rest of the ogre units. Instead he just kind of gave up on them once the mournfangs started doing some real damage. On the left he charged the now free mournfangs with both the zombies and the spirit host. Problem here is that the zombies were of course going the be crushed, lose combat and crumble would kill the host as well.
The other host moved to provide a redirect speed bump to the mournfangs on the right once they ate through the skeletons engaged with the

Stonehorn.

The Grave Guard reformed to side charge the center combat of Knights and Guts.
The corpse cart finally did something and charged into the side of that main combat.

Magic

Roll was decent, but not great. The necro powered up Raise Dead but it was dispelled. The Lord did get it off, getting back 2 knights, the wounds on the cart and a few skeletons.

Combat

Despite the renewed skeletons the Stonehorn finally finished them off.
On the left flank the Mournfangs couldn’t completely wipe the zombies, but did kill most of them and crumbled the Host, predictably.
In the center the Vampires were finally starting to show their superiority. They killed a couple more Ogres, leaving the characters alone. The Cart only had 5 total hits between impact and 2d6 but with a wound and a side charge they added enough resolution to make a difference. Luckily the Knights had managed to avoid losing combat, and so frenzy. Now with the buffed up Cart in combat they had ASF with rerolls. The ogres just couldn’t get by the armor of the Knights, and ended up losing combat. They rolled for break – a 9 followed by an 11. That was it for the ogres as they broke and were caught by the knights. As the Ogre player lamented his luck I said that was the risk of a general with an 8 leadership, and rolling a 9 is a pretty high roll. At this point he remembered/realized he had the Standard of Discipline…. And so it all came out of the box and back on the table. In a matter of a couple minutes it went from a decisive VC victory to a very disheartening turn. And I would just like to add, going back to the thing with the horses attacking… this is the guy who didn’t want all the horses attacking but had no problem putting an entire unit back after he was reminded about an item he had. In the interest of fairness though, they went back with no protest.


Ogre 3

Things were about over here. Stonehorn moved to charge in next turn, while the Mournfangs took out the last Spirit Host and repositions for the charge into the center. The Mourns on the left finished the zombies off in combat.

Magic again saw Trollguts go off, but little else.
In combat the vampires own yet again, reducing the IG’s to 4 models and the SM and BSB. They held though.


Vampire 3

The grave guard came in and with everything they killed the ironguts down to the standard bearer. And 2 characters. Magic raised some grave guard and a couple more knights.


Ogre 4

In the center the Stonehorn and Mournfangs both came into the combat, with the Fangs hitting the Knights on the side, in contact with the general and the Stonehorn hitting the Grave Guard who were on the side of the Iron Guts. At the end of the combat the Vamp Lord died from impact hits and the knights crumbled away. The Stonehorn did a tone of impact hits, but took a few wounds in return. The Iron Guts standard finally died.

Vampire 4

Though they managed to kill the Stonehorn, the Graveguard were just overwhelmed and thorugh crumbling on the general’s death the previous turn and the flood of Ogres were wiped out.
Game. Set. Match.


Very tough game if you’re a VC fan. I liked his list, but against that OK list t was outclassed. In order to win things had to go perfect, and a few mistakes were costly.

Once again Mournfangs just ruled the day. Between them and the “Gutstar” there is just very little you can do. The OK player did a great job of dictating charges and redirecting. Say what you will about an overpowered list or army book, he played a great game and did exactly what he needed to do.

The other major issue was the magic, which the Ogres dominated. Without being able to bring guys back the VC's just couldn't slow anything down.

I love some of the new ideas in the book. I think it should prove to be very competitive. i just thing in this case it was rock v paper and not in a good way. :)

Reiko321
07-02-2012, 17:19
Thanks for the report: Did the mournfangs manage some sort of magical attack to kill those hexwraiths? The flaming banner just gives "flaming attacks" ...not magical. So, the turn that the mournfangs would have charged they would kill two at best (one for charging and another for their standard's worth of combat res) and the hexwraiths would have to do at least two wounds every round of combat afterwards to avoid crumbling by one. Eventually the mournfangs would win but it would have taken a few rounds of combat.

Overtninja
07-02-2012, 17:31
a lot of people seem to assume that the banner of eternal flame grants magic attacks, or that flaming attacks are somehow also magical, while neither is true. did flaming attacks used to count as magical or something in another edition?

Feefait
07-02-2012, 17:35
No, we just actually thought about it. Magic banner that augments attacks means magical attacks. How else is a MAGIC banner granting flaming attacks? We do all sorts of crazy things like that. lol

Reiko321
07-02-2012, 19:51
House rules non-withstanding, I was just pointing out how things should have worked :)

I stopped long ago trying to apply logic to various instances in this game, or else there would be many more house rules!

Feefait
07-02-2012, 19:58
House rules non-withstanding, I was just pointing out how things should have worked :)

I stopped long ago trying to apply logic to various instances in this game, or else there would be many more house rules!

hehe. I guess I never considered it a house rule. It just made sense to us. I usually try tp point out in my reports when something is a specific house rule. Funny thing is though since i posted we've been debating this in our circle and have now apparently decided to go with Magical banners grant magical effects that are most definitely NOT magical attacks. lol SO i guess it's only ever my skaven I'll be playing a against Vampires since my other 2 (Lizardmen and beastmen) having 1 unit that can take a magical banner makes ethereal useless, if in fact magical banners worked as I believe they should... lol Sorry. Did that sound petty? It should have. :)

Hinaelark
07-02-2012, 20:25
I play vc and I guess I've just assumed in the past that the generic banner didn't cause magical attacks because it didn't specifically say so as previously the VC army had a magic banner that said it gave magical flaming attacks. That was a 7th ed book though, so I don't know if GW dropped the magical cause it was supposed to be redundant or if the flaming attacks from the generic item aren't magical. They don't mention the banner in the faq and the VC banner for magical flaming attacks got dropped from the new book so i guess this will be one thing i bring up with my local group the next time I see them.

Feefait
07-02-2012, 21:17
It's funny because it's raised a lot of discussion. (again) in our group. We had talked about it before and figured it made sense one way. but now we're discussing just what RAI vs RAW means for us. Maybe we will have to sit down and go through each item to decide what it actually does (in our group) or what was meant. We've always been good about just house-ruling stuff we don't agree with. As it stands right now it looks like we may be leaning back more to the side of allowing them to be magical.

Sarael
07-02-2012, 23:45
Yet another reason that Yetis rock, "yet" no one uses them.

Feefait
08-02-2012, 00:19
Yetis would have been an interesting choice. I completely forgot they existed, honestly. I think the OK list was an internet special tournament list which means that things like yetis won't make it in. Is like to see them though.

Overtninja
08-02-2012, 05:11
i think it's important for magic attacks to be something special in most lists, because otherwise it ceases to be an advantage to those who have easy access to it, and it ceases to be a thing that you have to plan for in your lists. giving every army access to magic attacks for a 10-point banner isn't really reasonable. make characters take magic weapons to be able to hit ghosts, make people actually have to consider it as a thing they need to deal with, instead of just letting them slap it on a horde of dudes and counter all ethereal units immediately. if ethereal isn't an advantage, why do units pay a premium for it in points?

SevenSins
08-02-2012, 13:46
that ogre player doesn't get to many sportsmanship points from me, but a nice rep nonetheless.

on the magic banner issue I agree with Overtninja.

TheKingInYellow
08-02-2012, 14:26
It's not a tournament OK list at all. No Dragonhide Banner, no Hellheart, no Ironblasters, and it includes both a Thundertusk and a Stonehorn. It's not a weak list, but it's not a WAAC list by any imagination.

Giving those Mournfangs magical attacks from the banner was the biggest problem. If you play that right, he has nothing besides the Firebelly's spells to hurt your Wraiths/Hosts/Ethereal Vamp.

Darkminion
08-02-2012, 14:48
What is everybodies problem with this guys Ogre list? It is no way near a competitive tourney list. When he throws away the Thundertusk and the Stonehorn and replaces them with two Ironblasters en buffs the two Mournfang units up to 3 units of 4, throws away the Bulls and buff the Ironguts up to a full horde....then start to talk about a hard list...but this? Come on.....nothing wrong with it for a friendly game!


ohh...and magic banners do not grant magical attacks.....no point in discussing it (except the breath weapon on the dragonhide banner, since it is an attack made by the magical item itself).

D...

Feefait
08-02-2012, 16:02
I find the idea that giving out more magical attacks makes ethereal invalid to be ludicrous. In this list the OK player had one unit with magic attacks, that by RAW weren't magical at all. Tell me which is more potential fun - having your army untouchable by the enemy or having an army that cannot touch your opponent. I played a largely ethereal army once with my Beastmen and it was just incredibly boring. I think I pulled out a lucky win (I may have still lost, don't remember) simply because my Cygore had 1 amazing round against the Vamp lord, but that was 7th. now, they wouldn't have to continue testing for instability each round if I understand the rule correctly.

The issue with this game is primarily that the one of 2 things could have happened: banner doesn't give magic attacks and the ogre player sits the entire game tied up, in frustration. Or, the banner does work as we play it and the vampire player can do nothing against those mournfangs (except change his tactics, get better charges, etc.). I don;t know which is better or worse, more or less fun. But it can get ugly with ethereal with many of the armies out there.

Love the discussion guys! Thanks!

warplock
08-02-2012, 16:18
"The Vamp Lord started right out attacking the Slaughtermaster, but only hit 3 times, doing 2 wounds. He then Red Furied another. And another. And another."

Wounds generated by Red Fury can't themselves go on to generate more Red Fury wounds - you only get one 'round' of Red Fury per combat round.

Feefait
08-02-2012, 16:31
"The Vamp Lord started right out attacking the Slaughtermaster, but only hit 3 times, doing 2 wounds. He then Red Furied another. And another. And another."

Wounds generated by Red Fury can't themselves go on to generate more Red Fury wounds - you only get one 'round' of Red Fury per combat round.

That is very good to know. Once the Lord got in contact with regular Ogres he was doing 4-5 wounds a turn easy with Red Fury. I'm not big into reading other peoples books or armies for rules or what not but assume they are doing it 'appropriately'. The VC player is following this thread so I'm sure he'll check it. :)

Darkminion
08-02-2012, 18:17
The issue with this game is primarily that the one of 2 things could have happened: banner doesn't give magic attacks and the ogre player sits the entire game tied up, in frustration. Or, the banner does work as we play it and the vampire player can do nothing against those mournfangs (except change his tactics, get better charges, etc.). I don;t know which is better or worse, more or less fun. But it can get ugly with ethereal with many of the armies out there.

Love the discussion guys! Thanks!

Ok Feefait, I have nothing against you but what you are saying here is just sad in my opinion. First off, the banner does not give magical attacks! But on this conclusion you state that the Ogre player can do nothing against a Vampire player with 2 single spirit hosts and 5 hexwraiths? How about the following?

- Blast them to hell with his firebelly or Slaughtermaster.
- Slam a Stonehorn in the Hexwraits and keep them tied up the rest of the game
- Outmanouvre the Vampire Counts player
- Ignore the ethereals and kill the rest
- etc

Then you say that if the Vampires enemy has one 3 model cavalry unit with magical attacks he can do nothing against it. I mean really? What game are you playing friend?

D...

Lance Tankmen
08-02-2012, 18:32
i agree, magical banners shouldn't give magical attacks. ethereals dont have ranks and banners for a reason, atleast most dont because it allows there to be a small chance that normal hordes can win. i mean did you even read what you typed? one guy is frustrated but could probably kill them with charge, rank n banner res, while the other player CAN DO NOTHING except tie them up for a turn. As to changing his tactics, you removed his most viable option, which is tie them up with spirits.... so again OK stood a chance without the magical attacks from the banner( which isnt even RAW) and the VC did not have a chance with your rules, thats how im reading it from the way you have stated it.

Feefait
08-02-2012, 18:41
Explain to me how the VC player had no chance? His command unit could have taken out those Mournfangs and then the ethereal could have hit the rest of the army, tying them up while his Blood Knights worked their way through. Just because a 35 point swarm cannot tie up a unit for 4 turns (Mournfangs are only +1 with a banner) assuming there are no wounds done by the swarm does not make them ineffective or useless. It means you can't just throw them at anything. Even if the mournfangs charged the swarm, that'd would be a +2. What happens when they get healed? Or what if they get charged by hexwraiths and then it's even worse? I think we keep looking at worse case scenario when the truth is somewhere in between. ethereal will not on it's own win a game and neither will a low point magic banner granting magical attacks.

Lance Tankmen
08-02-2012, 18:55
true, but then again why give him magical attacks he can deal with the spirit host, with his caster or his command unit? all i see is giving people things they shouldnt have, id take ethereal units because of the fear my opponent gets knowing he has to deal with them, where you reverse it for the VC instead having to use his command to deal with a unit, where it should be the OK, and personally if i was the VC player id boycott the magical attacks magic banner rule. BTW i think i read he cast his heal and got back two knights, i thought he could only revive one knight per casting due to some special VC rule?

Darkminion
08-02-2012, 19:25
Explain to me how the VC player had no chance? His command unit could have taken out those Mournfangs and then the ethereal could have hit the rest of the army, tying them up while his Blood Knights worked their way through. Just because a 35 point swarm cannot tie up a unit for 4 turns (Mournfangs are only +1 with a banner) assuming there are no wounds done by the swarm does not make them ineffective or useless. It means you can't just throw them at anything. Even if the mournfangs charged the swarm, that'd would be a +2. What happens when they get healed? Or what if they get charged by hexwraiths and then it's even worse? I think we keep looking at worse case scenario when the truth is somewhere in between. ethereal will not on it's own win a game and neither will a low point magic banner granting magical attacks.

You do know you contradict yourself here right? Because you said the opposite a view posts earlier.

D...

Hinaelark
08-02-2012, 20:32
Explain to me how the VC player had no chance? His command unit could have taken out those Mournfangs and then the ethereal could have hit the rest of the army, tying them up while his Blood Knights worked their way through. Just because a 35 point swarm cannot tie up a unit for 4 turns (Mournfangs are only +1 with a banner) assuming there are no wounds done by the swarm does not make them ineffective or useless. It means you can't just throw them at anything. Even if the mournfangs charged the swarm, that'd would be a +2. What happens when they get healed? Or what if they get charged by hexwraiths and then it's even worse? I think we keep looking at worse case scenario when the truth is somewhere in between. ethereal will not on it's own win a game and neither will a low point magic banner granting magical attacks.

The problem is that there is very little in VC that will counter mournfangs and what there is the VC player here didn't take much of. Ethereal will normally tie up mournfangs for 1-2 turns (2-4 combat phases) as you normally get about 4 wounds that have to be done. This VC player wasn't using crypt horrors that are T5, Vargheists that might have been able to out-flank them, or some sort of chariot (black coach) with a ward and armor save. This means that the VC player would have to have dedicated a large % of his points to deal with a unit that is a small % of his opponent's points. Getting a spirit host infront of a RaF unit isn't going to see them tying up the unit for very long either, especially with characters in both units. The units that might have been able to deal with mournfangs: the graveguard, over 400 pts of RaF, that are going to take heavy losses trying to deal with them because they're going to be getting 5+ saves against the ogre attacks and 6+ against the mounts, or the blood knights, because they had a lord, even then, if the mournfangs get the charge it's going to be a tough fight, and that unit is going to be well over 400 pts.

I've beaten mournfang cav once. I managed to get the charge and hit them with an ethereal black coach. They were well off to the side and couldn't get any other support, and it came down to me doing 2 unsaved wounds in one phase and my opponent failing the leadership. Even then, with a coach that had absorbed 5 dice and couldn't be hit, I took 3 wounds in combat res during the time that the coach held up the mournfangs.

Feefait
08-02-2012, 20:44
Ok I'm just going to reply once more and then let it go. We do not/did not play with magical attacks for anyone to have an advantage. We did it that way because it's just how it makes sense to us.

As far as contradicting myself I may have not been clear. Forcing someone to take something to 20 deal with your army in anyway reduces the fun, in my opinion.

Okay so the stonehorn ties up the hosts for the game... which is exactly what the VC player wanted to happen. That's 35 points tying up what 250? Unsure of exact points values. Not eactly an ideal situation for the OK player. Ignore the ethereal and kill everything else? Works well when you are ogres and can put out 20 attacks from 3 models. Unless of course they get tied up for 3-4 turns by a swarm :) In this list there were no magic weapons. Ok so maybe that's the problem of the OK player, I'll concede that. :) The VC did a good job of taking out the firebelly early. There really weren't many ethereal units in this list, I am talking worst case scenario here. Min-maxxing ethereal against armies that cannot get magical attacks for basic troops.

As fas as the healing spell we discussed it and if I remember correctly it says that each Vamp can only heal one wound, and since each model had one wound we figured he could bring back 2 models. I am not familiar with the actual wording. Decision on the fly that worked well enough for us.

"Then you say that if the Vampires enemy has one 3 model cavalry unit with magical attacks he can do nothing against it. I mean really? What game are you playing friend?"

Tongue in cheek. hence the parenthesis with the (change tactics, etc) bit. Mournfangs with magic attacks will destroy any ethereal unit. So, throw something else against them if you are VC. Like say the bloodknights. That unit would have worked the Mournfangs over, I think. But again this is all based off our groups interpretation of the banner, which everyone seems focused on telling us is wrong. Which we don't really care about. I just want to say again - it was not this banner alone that won the game for the Ogres. He played a better game and rolled better. Yea the Flaming Mournfangs did a lot of damage, but it was manageable and without an amazing round where they won combat by 20, and then a 1+1 powerdice VC magic phase they probably wouldn't have.

Darkminion
08-02-2012, 22:08
Feefait, I hope I have not offended you in previous posts. If I have then I offer my apologies. It was simply not clear for me what point you were trying to make. It sounded to me like you were saying the Vampire Counts have nothing to stand against Ogres, but Ethereal troops and that Ogres do not stand a chance against a Vampire Count player that has Ethereal troops. These notions are not shared by me and thus I replied.

Back to the banner and magical attacks. Offcourse if your gaming group all want it to be so, by all means play it as such. But I am curious as to why you and your group are of this opinion and also, is this just for the Banner of eternal flame or all magical banners?

D...

Feefait
09-02-2012, 03:48
oi... the banner. lol Okay it's a magic banner that gives the unit flaming attacks. why would those flames not be magical? thats about it. It's not like buying an upgrade to my wood elf archers that gives them flaming arrows. it is coming form a magical source. It's like in Dungeons and dragons if oyu get a magical augment on your weapon then it's magical. That's about it.
enerally be
As fas as OK dealing with ethereal it will be extremely difficult to do if played right. I don't think anyone uses yeti's, so let's rule them out. Then you are looking at a couple characters with magic weapons. They can generally be bogged down or avoided in the right army. I think ethereal is a great tactic against an army like ogrs, but having been on the receiving end of an ethereal army with beastmen and wood elves it is just incredibly awful to play.

Sarael
09-02-2012, 04:50
Ethereal is the only thing VC has going for it.

Darkminion
09-02-2012, 07:15
So your group also plays the Armour piercing banner as granting magical attacks? How about the Ogre spell that grants +1 str to a unit, are these then also magical?

D...

Lance Tankmen
09-02-2012, 07:43
btw read the rest of the healing spells for vampires, anything with ethereal, large target or vampric can only recover 1 wound per casting, so the lord could of only rezzed 1 blood knight

Domandi
09-02-2012, 10:51
The descripition of the spell is very clear that is says one wound per model not unit/cast. (VC player here) I know there are huge threads of people discussing this very topic. Can we keep it there instead of this battle report?

Lance Tankmen
09-02-2012, 10:56
no i though he ment he used the signature spell, that states it right there, in its thing, not the attribute

Domandi
09-02-2012, 11:59
Oh, no. The vampire only healed himself with the attribute. IoN was used to bring back blood knights.

Lebowski
10-02-2012, 00:23
Looking at the lists I would give the victory to the VC if i had to place bets. The VC list is pretty solid and the OK list does not have enough counters for the chaff ethereals. (and of course unless stated banners do not grant magic attacks... if we went by what 'should be' the game would not be the same)

After reading the report the match ups were incredibly poor for the VC player.

On another note the VC lord can't have nightshroud and a +1 armor save. its impossible without taking two items of magic armor.

It sounds like it was one of the VC players first games with the new book. i made my share of mistakes my first game too ;)

Feefait
10-02-2012, 01:57
Thanks guys! i'll get right on spending hours writing up the next battle report! lol Seriously though, I do appreciate the views and the comments. Not being sarcastic. It's way better then just nothing. :)

Domandi
10-02-2012, 04:23
Lebowski, being the VC player, I will respond to your observations. We were playing meeting engagement, so I had to deploy my entire army first. The Ogre player was able to set up all the favorable match ups he wanted. Since we were playing with "the magic banners" my ethereals didn't stand a chance. He was also able to steal first turn from me =P So I only had one magic phase before we were in combat(and I rolled a combined 2 for the winds of magic). I was pretty much screwed. Now, obviously I would have been in much better shape had we played with banners RAW, and I didn't lose first turn, and I didn't forget to deploy my two dire wolves units =P I liked the list and it should have done much better, but it was an uphill fight from the beginning.

Also, about the nightshroud. It was the only magic armor he had. He was equipped with HA, shield, barded nightmare and the nightshroud. The nightshroud is not classified as an actual armor, it just counts as your selection from the magic armor choices. It works just like the dragon helm or sea dragon cloak(yes i know the sdc isn't a magic item, but it stacks armor save all the same).

razora911
10-02-2012, 18:02
now i may be sounding stupid cus i havent read the whole thread (just the batrep and the first few posts) but i wouldn't consider that OK list hard for my VC, or VC in general. why haven't anyone suggested Terrorgheists to deal with those Mournfang? and further, as long as GG gets the charge, they shoulden't die too much, and KB makes a big difference.

just my 2 cents.

Domandi
10-02-2012, 18:11
Razor, the point is I didn't have a terrorgheist. My GG did get the charge, twice, and wrecked things. The problem was, again, that I had to depoly my entire army first then he managed to steal first turn. I was literaly in combat on my turn 1. Not the way I wanted to do it, but I did the best I could.

If I knew his full list ahead of time, sure I woulda brought a Terrorgheist/banshee/etc.

Also, Killing Blow doesn't work on Monstorous Infantry :(

razora911
10-02-2012, 18:22
Also, Killing Blow doesn't work on Monstorous Infantry :(

so it only works on multi-wound infantry? bummer.

i only just started VC, and was just commenting on the OK list in general. Heck, I've lost my all my games so far. It's a nice stepdown from my incredibly lucky Skaven, who are still undefeated. (: Another point was to always bring that TG. :b

Hinaelark
11-02-2012, 09:04
so it only works on multi-wound infantry? bummer.

i only just started VC, and was just commenting on the OK list in general. Heck, I've lost my all my games so far. It's a nice stepdown from my incredibly lucky Skaven, who are still undefeated. (: Another point was to always bring that TG. :b

Killing blow works on standard infantry (20mm and 25mm) and standard cavalry (25x50) bases. It also affects models that would be standard infantry that are riding special mounts (monstrous, chariots, etc.) The biggest effect I normally see with killing blow is the fact that it bypasses armor and regen saves, so it's nice even against single wound models that would normally have a good armor save.

valle
12-02-2012, 17:47
It's funny because it's raised a lot of discussion. (again) in our group. We had talked about it before and figured it made sense one way. but now we're discussing just what RAI vs RAW means for us. Maybe we will have to sit down and go through each item to decide what it actually does (in our group) or what was meant. We've always been good about just house-ruling stuff we don't agree with. As it stands right now it looks like we may be leaning back more to the side of allowing them to be magical.

Using house rules because something dosnt makes sense in your view can further ruin an already delicate balance. If i was the VC player I would then argue that it dosnt make sense that magical weapons (Take notice that the rules state magical WEAPONS not weapons granted flaming for this or that reason) can hurt etherals in the first place, how can a blade that offer +1 strenght do any damage to a mist? You shouldnt go beyond the rulebook unless its to fix some excisting balance issue, which it wasnt in this case and the OK player certainly didnt need that ekstra boost.

Max zero
16-02-2012, 07:21
oi... the banner. lol Okay it's a magic banner that gives the unit flaming attacks. why would those flames not be magical? thats about it. It's not like buying an upgrade to my wood elf archers that gives them flaming arrows. it is coming form a magical source. It's like in Dungeons and dragons if oyu get a magical augment on your weapon then it's magical. That's about it.
enerally be
As fas as OK dealing with ethereal it will be extremely difficult to do if played right. I don't think anyone uses yeti's, so let's rule them out. Then you are looking at a couple characters with magic weapons. They can generally be bogged down or avoided in the right army. I think ethereal is a great tactic against an army like ogrs, but having been on the receiving end of an ethereal army with beastmen and wood elves it is just incredibly awful to play.

That's kinda the point. It's called balance.

I don't like it when armies shoot me to bit before I get across the board but it's part of the game.