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Doommasters
08-02-2012, 02:47
How the hell do you deal with the hellheart as VC? Given most of your casters want to be close to you general and/or a mortis engine the HH completely and utterly destroys VC.

VC is not my main army but at club day last weekend I watched as VC players were tearing their hair out at this item, now that you can't march within 6" on a vampire all your caster are bunched up and if the Hellheart goes off it is almost game over from a 50pt item. I watched with my own eyes three of my firends get beaten on turn three buy this item in one afternoon, it dson't always kill you casters but the damage and lose of a magic phase ended the game almost straight away. The club captain is thinking on banning the item outright due to the bitterness it is causing within the group (everyone likes to win, I think it is kind of funny as VC have in the past been slightly OP but we are in a new addition that is supposed to stop brockeness like the this...)

It reminds me of the command and conqure games where it is the first person to get the nuke or super weapon that wins the game, only one side has the nuke and other does not in this case.

For people that don't think it is that bad, have a read of the VC book and look at how reliant they are on the magic phase and multiple casters and get back to me. I mean it was bad with the 7th book but now it is simply too good imo with the new vampire rules and the twin miscasts from the mortis engine.

If you were a VC general how would you deal with this item and/or how would you mitigate its game changing impact? And after that you still have to deal with the ogre army :-)

sulla
08-02-2012, 03:47
How the hell do you deal with the hellheart as VC? Given most of your casters want to be close to you general and/or a mortis engine the HH completely and utterly destroys VC.

I don't get it? Isn't the rerolled miscast thing an upgrade for the mortis?

Also, aren't most of your casters bunkered at the back of the field? I would've thought only the fighter lord would be guaranteed to be in range. Sure, it'll wreck your magic phase with even a single miscast that robs you of d6 dice, but that and a bunch of dead r'n'f are the most likely results. Everything else is a bonus for the ogre player.

Plus add in that now VC have many more units that are viable combat threats without spells to buff them. Crypt horrors in particular will be great value vs OK.

Then there is combat; a tooled VC combat lord is capable of killing off that slaughtermaster with the hellheart in a single phase. Pack him in a unit of blood kights or black knights and charge into combat. No stomps and you will do enough high initiative damage to break the unit. Who knows... he may even be hesitant to force miscasts while you are in BTB with his slaughtermaster's unit as you will hurt them too.

Or vanhel's a huge zombie horde forward to block the deathstar from advancing closer than 16" from your casters. That gives better than even odds of his hellheart getting a single guy.

As far as I can see, there's enough hard hitting stuff in the 8th edition VC list to win combats without a single healing spell or buff ever getting off if used carefully. The only VC lists that will suffer unduly from the the hellheart are the mortis bunker lists that build everything around a bunker of many necros and a mortis or two.

Zentdiam
08-02-2012, 05:05
Simple, do not run your casters so close together. Against ogres, with the possibility of a HH, I think you are going to have to split your forces up more and simply walk your way to their army. While they have some crazy shooting units, they are not masters of ranged combat and you should be able to slowly move up while rezzing units as they take damage. This is when you need to think tactically and adjust your tactics. If it is THAT bad, then you need to run your mortis engine outside of the range of your casters. CRAZY I know, but that is quite a site better than losing everyone versus the HH. Use the mortis engine to provide the regen buff to vargheists, doom wolves, or crypt ghouls on the flank. Yes it is wasting points, yes it is not how you wanted to run your army but this is what separates good generals from ok generals. Adjusting and using strategy.

Doommasters
08-02-2012, 05:09
I don't get it? Isn't the rerolled miscast thing an upgrade for the mortis?

Also, aren't most of your casters bunkered at the back of the field? I would've thought only the fighter lord would be guaranteed to be in range. Sure, it'll wreck your magic phase with even a single miscast that robs you of d6 dice, but that and a bunch of dead r'n'f are the most likely results. Everything else is a bonus for the ogre player.

Plus add in that now VC have many more units that are viable combat threats without spells to buff them. Crypt horrors in particular will be great value vs OK.

Then there is combat; a tooled VC combat lord is capable of killing off that slaughtermaster with the hellheart in a single phase. Pack him in a unit of blood kights or black knights and charge into combat. No stomps and you will do enough high initiative damage to break the unit. Who knows... he may even be hesitant to force miscasts while you are in BTB with his slaughtermaster's unit as you will hurt them too.

Or vanhel's a huge zombie horde forward to block the deathstar from advancing closer than 16" from your casters. That gives better than even odds of his hellheart getting a single guy.

As far as I can see, there's enough hard hitting stuff in the 8th edition VC list to win combats without a single healing spell or buff ever getting off if used carefully. The only VC lists that will suffer unduly from the the hellheart are the mortis bunker lists that build everything around a bunker of many necros and a mortis or two.

I don't play the VC as a main army but from what I saw and was told the Ogres have very good movement compared to VC making it really easy for the Hellheart to be in range of your casters. It is not uncommon to have 4+ casters in a VC army all close to the general due to the 12" bubble. From watching games the HH hitting most of the VC casters and pretty much ending any chance of victory all for 50pts.

I am not hear to say omg it is impossible to stop but from what I have witnessed it does seem fairly over the top in this match up, hence asking for ideas to get around it.

As for bloodknights and a combat lord that is like a 800pt unit, yes it will kill stuff but that is way beyond reasonable in an all comers list TBH.

Zombies die so fast if you are taking them an not raising them up there is little point, as CR will crush you in no time.

Also vanhels is almost the number one dispel target so and you are not going to throw 6 dice at it, all in all a unit of vargheists might be better at taking out the butcher or SM?

Doommasters
08-02-2012, 05:17
Funny you should say this, a close friend of mine who I play with regularly and he is a much better general than me did exactly this and got tabled as the Ogre player totally out maneuvered him as lots of his units were outside the bubbles.

Now adapting your list is one thing but forcing an entire army like the vc to do that for a total of 50pts seems crazy to me personally.

Would a unit of vargheists be enough to take a unit of ogres head on and take out the HH character? Might have to be 6+?

quietus1986
08-02-2012, 05:24
Its really hard to deal with as VC.

Petey
08-02-2012, 05:36
How the hell do you deal with the hellheart as VC? Given most of your casters want to be close to you general and/or a mortis engine the HH completely and utterly destroys VC.

VC is not my main army but at club day last weekend I watched as VC players were tearing their hair out at this item, now that you can't march within 6" on a vampire all your caster are bunched up and if the Hellheart goes off it is almost game over from a 50pt item. I watched with my own eyes three of my firends get beaten on turn three buy this item in one afternoon, it dson't always kill you casters but the damage and lose of a magic phase ended the game almost straight away. The club captain is thinking on banning the item outright due to the bitterness it is causing within the group (everyone likes to win, I think it is kind of funny as VC have in the past been slightly OP but we are in a new addition that is supposed to stop brockeness like the this...)

It reminds me of the command and conqure games where it is the first person to get the nuke or super weapon that wins the game, only one side has the nuke and other does not in this case.

For people that don't think it is that bad, have a read of the VC book and look at how reliant they are on the magic phase and multiple casters and get back to me. I mean it was bad with the 7th book but now it is simply too good imo with the new vampire rules and the twin miscasts from the mortis engine.

If you were a VC general how would you deal with this item and/or how would you mitigate its game changing impact? And after that you still have to deal with the ogre army :-)

You make a less magic heavy list. Or you take only vampire casters.

And before you chide me on saying that Less magic heavy is impossible, know that my VC army only has 2 lvl 1 casters in it and has won the 3 games I've used it in.

Balerion
08-02-2012, 06:07
Also, aren't most of your casters bunkered at the back of the field? I would've thought only the fighter lord would be guaranteed to be in range. Sure, it'll wreck your magic phase with even a single miscast that robs you of d6 dice, but that and a bunch of dead r'n'f are the most likely results. Everything else is a bonus for the ogre player.
Why would anyone have their casters at the back of the field when the base level of IoN only covers 6" and the next best only 12", and a the whole General march radius effect? VC armies have to cluster now.


Then there is combat; a tooled VC combat lord is capable of killing off that slaughtermaster with the hellheart in a single phase. Pack him in a unit of blood kights or black knights and charge into combat. No stomps and you will do enough high initiative damage to break the unit. Who knows... he may even be hesitant to force miscasts while you are in BTB with his slaughtermaster's unit as you will hurt them too.
Like someone else said, that's using an 800+ point, uncommonly seen unit to deal with a commonly seen 50 point item. Also, that cavalry unit will have an average charge range of about 18", which happens to be close to the Hellheart's average area of effect distance. Which means that the expensive cavalry lord will possibly have to face the Hellheart at those (not very comforting) ~50/50 odds you mention elsewhere. And a resounding OMG IS HE SERIOUS?, to your final brainstorm... because after combat has been joined the Slaughtermaster will certainly initiate the item. The Vampire lord will be more expensive than the Slaughtermaster, more helpful to his army than the Slaughtermaster, more damaging to lose than the Slaughtermaster, and any miscast template will always cover at least as many expensive VC cavalry models as it will Ogres in btb. There's no reason not to fire off the HH.


Or vanhel's a huge zombie horde forward to block the deathstar from advancing closer than 16" from your casters. That gives better than even odds of his hellheart getting a single guy.
This suggestion just seems like nonsense to me. After a single march move an Ogre unit will be at the centre line of a standard gaming table, and most likely within 12" to 18" of whichever wizard he feels like targeting. VC can't win a game by holding back in their deployment zone. You're seriously suggesting that one Zombie unit (without IoN support) is going to hold back an Ogre horde that wants to get through it?


As far as I can see, there's enough hard hitting stuff in the 8th edition VC list to win combats without a single healing spell or buff ever getting off if used carefully. The only VC lists that will suffer unduly from the the hellheart are the mortis bunker lists that build everything around a bunker of many necros and a mortis or two.
More nonsense. Any army with multiple wizards would suffer. You could take an army with a SGK and three level 1 combat vampires and it would get mashed by the HH.

Bodysnatcher
08-02-2012, 07:08
I find the hellheart an absolute pig to deal with, running magic heavy daemons as I do. Some ideas for VC are:
Turtle in a corner, raise a large zombie unit to pin down the butcher's unit, send Vargheists (the bat ogre thingies) to eat the cannons - a terrorgheist or banshee would work just as well at this.
Alternatively go for death-sniping the butcher. If you can get into position so that the ogre player is forced to choose between stopping a nasty vanhels or leech, the more the better.
A big cavalry unit could be used to smash the deathstar, but it's risky. Buffed black knights are rather nifty.

theunwantedbeing
08-02-2012, 09:11
The hellheart is no more dangerous to vampires than it is to any other army that includes at least one mage.

1 Vamp lore user - fairly risk, grin and bear it, take the earthing rod if you are so worried
2 Vamp lore users - barely any risk at this point
3+ Vamp lore users - negligible risk, sure it could hit them all and they all die but that is very unlikely

The black tongue that chaos have is a greater risk simply as it can target the general specifically from anywhere on the table, same deal with the infernal puppet.
You can't risk a big spell with somebody important or he may find he explodes.

Also vampires can get by with a single level 1 caster who never attempts any spells all game.
Skellies are cheap enough for that now afterall and there are plenty of bound items available for them to use instead of risking a magic user.

maze ironheart
08-02-2012, 09:21
Proberbly a bad Idea but why not have a unit of 3 vargheist charge unless he is in the centre they should have a reasonable amount of attacks to kill him.

The bearded one
08-02-2012, 09:45
I think sniping with the lore of death might be a costeffective way to get rid of the ogre carrying the hellheart.

Darkminion
08-02-2012, 10:42
Ogre Tyrant: I'm sick of all them Wizards running and flying down our flanks and casting those odd purple colored balls that kill our entire army! Find me something to deal with this!


Suck it up and change your playstyle! Ogre players have been doing it for a long time!

To get into some of the replies:

- With all the chaff Vampires can generate holding back an Ogre horde should be quite possible
- The range of the Hellheart is pretty random and an Ogre player will want to get reall close before he risks using it.
- Take the earthing rod on your main caster
- The reason Ogre players take the hellheart is to try and limit or shut down a magic phase, not to kill of enemy casters (this nearly never happens).
- There are many other items that can shut down a magic phase effectively. If you cannot handle this, you are doing something wrong.
- Ogres are very vulnerable to the most popular magic lores in the game and the hell heart is one of the few counters they have for this.

D...

Techpriest
08-02-2012, 11:55
Ogre Tyrant: I'm sick of all them Wizards running and flying down our flanks and casting those odd purple colored balls that kill our entire army! Find me something to deal with this!


Suck it up and change your playstyle! Ogre players have been doing it for a long time!

To get into some of the replies:

- With all the chaff Vampires can generate holding back an Ogre horde should be quite possible
- The range of the Hellheart is pretty random and an Ogre player will want to get reall close before he risks using it.
- Take the earthing rod on your main caster
- The reason Ogre players take the hellheart is to try and limit or shut down a magic phase, not to kill of enemy casters (this nearly never happens).
- There are many other items that can shut down a magic phase effectively. If you cannot handle this, you are doing something wrong.
- Ogres are very vulnerable to the most popular magic lores in the game and the hell heart is one of the few counters they have for this.

D...

I have to agree completely here. I have both a Ogre and Vampire Army. The Hellheart may be very effective against Vampires and Tombkings and any army running a lot of castors that keep them close together. But it is also very ineffective against more armies. There are more armies out there that only run 1 or 2 wizards max, And a 50 pt item on a castor takes up half to all the magic item points. And when taking the Hellheart, that castor cannot take a Dispell Scroll.

Yes it can hurt Castors, yes it can hurt a bunker with multiple castors in it. But against a lot of other armies it is short os impressive. You cannot say an item should be banned becasure it can hurt one army more then other. Before the hellheart is used, Vampires have rule over the magic phase. After the hellheart is used, Vampires will still have more magic. It is highly unlikely the hellheart will kill all your Castors and make all your Castors useless.

Drongol
08-02-2012, 16:25
As an Ogre player, if I'm catching 4 Wizards in a Hellheart pulse, I'm doing pretty darned well and likely won't have to worry about enemy magic for that one phase. The actual damage I may do is insignificant compared to not having to worry about a Purple Sun or a Pit of Shades or Mindrazor or any of those other "I win" buttons going off.

Against Vampires, it (likely) means I won't have to deal with an army regenerating 4d6+9 Ghouls or Skeletons, or 8d6+9 Zombies in each unit. And if they're taking the Mortis Engine, then of course it's going to be rough on them, but that's the breaks when you pay for an upgrade with a downside like that.

I do find it hard to feel particularly sorry for a force that can turn any number of 70 point units into 460 point units over the course of 2 magic phases (for the record, that's 2 castings of Invocation from a level 1 Vampire/GK, 2 Level 2 Necromancers, and a Level 4 Necromancer Lord each over the course of 2 turns). But that may just be me being a little petty about seeing 3 units of 20 Zombies turn into 3 units of over 80 before I charge in).

Balerion
08-02-2012, 16:40
Let's not pretend that 50 points to kill a single magic phase is anything but an amazing deal, even by itself.

Drongol
08-02-2012, 17:09
Let's not pretend that 50 points to kill a single magic phase is anything but an amazing deal, even by itself.

It certainly is. It's almost as amazing as spending 25 points to kill a single magic phase.

Explanation: the typical 4-3 magic phase will result in 2 spells cast. If you scroll the one cast with more dice, you can use the remainder of your dispel dice to have a very good chance of canceling the second spell (barring IF, etc). Doing it again costs twice as much for Ogres, though.

That said, Ogres are extremely weak to the "big spells' due to their high points-to-model margin and their average-to-poor stats for resisting spells. Dwellers on a unit of Sauruses (Sauri?) is scary. Dwellers on a unit of Ironguts is downright frightening. Pit and Purple Sun are virtual game-enders in and of themselves, regardless of the Ogre list used. Sure, it's great against wizard-spam, but against the typical Level 4 and Level 2-style lists, it winds up being 50 points for potentially -D6 power dice, assuming you manage to hit a Wizard with it. Undead just take it worse because they have multiple low-level wizards that tend to hunker just behind the front lines.

Vepr
08-02-2012, 17:13
I wish there was something else that could provide a threat and not seem so cheesy but without the threat of the hell heart vampires would yawn when facing ogres. Speaking of unfair matchups ethereal units are hell on ogres and the VC have access to plenty of them.

Balerion
08-02-2012, 17:17
I wish there was something else that could provide a threat and not seem so cheesy but without the threat of the hell heart vampires would yawn when facing ogres. Speaking of unfair matchups ethereal units are hell on ogres and the VC have access to plenty of them.
Ethereal spam and the Lore of Death are the only power tools VC have against Ogres. Without them, Ogres are a horrific matchup for vamps. I'd like to hear you explain how that is not the case.

Vepr
08-02-2012, 17:26
I have yet to face a VC army without at least two ethereal units and at least one caster with death. I usually run an all comers lists of MMU and did not even start taking the hell heart until vamps. The ability to take a small unit and quickly turn it into a horde was grinding down my units along with the multiple nasty spells and unless I wanted to run the huge death star build which everyone hates including me I had to give my VC opponents something to worry about with hell heart.

Mid'ean
08-02-2012, 17:47
There will always be bad match ups for armies. I play both Ogres and VC and Ogres with HH is a BAD match up for VC now. Against other armies it might do something, might not. Against dwarfs it's 50 pts wasted. And all this talk about being in range most times is a load of bull chips. You have as much chance of rolling a 1 as you do a 6. Against Vamps you still need perfect placement for it to hit more than 1 or 2 wizards. If a butcher takes it he has NO other magic items. If a SM takes it that's half his magic allotment. That's only leaving him 50 pts for anything else. In my Ogre tourney list I don't even have it in there. To situational. And to be honest I rather not fight against a vampire army as Ogres. To many damm ethereal units to deal with.....:D

Darkminion
08-02-2012, 17:55
Man, I hate it when people talk about a single item that supposedly is needed to win the game for one side and if taken an auto win for the other. What a load of crap!

-Vampires can do very well against Ogres with a Hellheart.....Did it blast you and lost you the game? Don't blame the item, blame yourself and adept! Learn! try something else!

-Ogres not having the Hellheart have nothing against ethereal units? Pffff......Thats why we have Slaughtermasters with Fencers blades, a BsB with a sword of striking, A firebelly with a ruby ring of Ruin to blast them to hell. Oh, and Yhettees too or a unit of Mournfang with a magical Breath weapon on its Dragon hide banner!

Just my two cents offcourse!

D...

Vepr
08-02-2012, 18:01
One ethereal unit can be dealt with, two can be tough, three starts to be a real pain. It is easy enough to craft a list towards an opponent if you know who you are likely to play but we try to build all comers lists which makes taking units like Yhettes a real gamble because other than ethereal units they are pretty **** poor for their points... plus the models look like road kill. :p

Drongol
08-02-2012, 18:37
One ethereal unit can be dealt with, two can be tough, three starts to be a real pain. It is easy enough to craft a list towards an opponent if you know who you are likely to play but we try to build all comers lists which makes taking units like Yhettes a real gamble because other than ethereal units they are pretty **** poor for their points... plus the models look like road kill. :p

As I've stated before, Yhetees are not good against Ethereal units, and particularly not against Vampire Counts.

When we're discussing VC's ethereal units, we're really only talking about Hexwraiths and Spirit Hosts. Hosts are a two-round speedbump for most Ogre units, and Hexwraiths will simply move through a unit of Yhetees, influicting 6.67 wounds on the unit in the process.

Even where you'd think Yhetees would be useful, they're still bad.

Darkminion
08-02-2012, 19:01
Yhetees arent that bad, they are simply outclassed by other choices. Also It is not as easy as you make it sound to move those Hexwraiths (simply) through that unit. Say you have 6 Yhettees, which thus are more then 3inch deep (3x2) and the Hezxwraiths need to move through them and then finish their move 1 inch behind the Yhettees. That means that without the General within 12 inch on the start of their turn they had to be witin 4 inch in front of the Yhettees to make this move and 12 inch if they were inside of the Generals march bubble. In both cases the Yhettees might easily have charged the Hexwraiths.

I do agree however that Yhettees are usually not taken in a non tailored list, but even then, who needs them? ethereal units can be great support, but do not win you games. They are expansive, squishy and Ogres have enough ways to handle them!

D...

Drongol
08-02-2012, 19:14
No, trust me, Yhetees are bad. It's not that they're outclassed. They're just solidly bad.

Additionally, assuming that you are taking 300 points of them (to deal with a 150 point unit) and that said unit is more than 12" in front of the general at the beginning of the turn isn't just getting into situational uses, it's going into the realm of implausibility. But we are getting rather off-topic here.

Going back to the original topic, yes, OK is a bad matchup for VC because of the Hellheart, but keep in mind that with anywhere near proper magical support, that 70-point unit of Zombies can tie up a Guthorde more or less indefinitely.

Darkminion
08-02-2012, 19:21
Drongol, you are right, it is offtopic indeed. Some Yhetee thread is bound to pick up someday so I'll see you then! ;)

D...

Balerion
08-02-2012, 19:42
Going back to the original topic, yes, OK is a bad matchup for VC because of the Hellheart, but keep in mind that with anywhere near proper magical support, that 70-point unit of Zombies can tie up a Guthorde more or less indefinitely.
Without doing the math, I believe a Guthorde will kill something like 40 Zombies (after crumble) on the charge (which the Ogre will most likely get) or 30 (after crumble) in subsequent rounds. That Zombie unit is going to need a LOT of magical attention to keep from vanishing. Which means it wouldn't really be a 70-point Zombie unit holding up a 600+ point guthorde, but rather a 70-point Zombie units plus multiple 150+ point wizards and their necessary bunkers.

All in all it seems mostly like theoryhammer to me. One bad winds of magic roll, miscast, etc. will mean the Zombies don't get reinforced and therefore get paved over by the guthorde in the course of one game turn.

Vepr
08-02-2012, 19:44
As I've stated before, Yhetees are not good against Ethereal units, and particularly not against Vampire Counts.

When we're discussing VC's ethereal units, we're really only talking about Hexwraiths and Spirit Hosts. Hosts are a two-round speedbump for most Ogre units, and Hexwraiths will simply move through a unit of Yhetees, influicting 6.67 wounds on the unit in the process.

Even where you'd think Yhetees would be useful, they're still bad.

I have only proxied them a few times because I refuse to buy the models (I use gorgers and say they are yhetees with the mange). Anyways when I did use them I used them as support and counter charge units against ethereal units and they did fine in that regard. Trying to use them on their own is just a waste of time against anything really but using them with units already tied up they worked fine... still probably not worth taking but they did the job I wanted them to before eating some spells. I think if they cut their points down by about a third people might consider them.

Vepr
08-02-2012, 19:50
I can see where a guthorde would speed bump a small to medium unit of zombies but not all of us OK players run them and that is probably where the disconnect comes in our views. If a VC player is regularly facing a guthorde with the proper banners and a hell heart then it would seem OK are real nightmare where as someone like me running MMU looks at VC as a real challenge even with a hell heart.

Doommasters
08-02-2012, 19:58
If you want to go cheese the VC could get two vamp casters with fly and forbidden lore death, fly over to the flanks and throw all your dice at Purple Sun but this is just lame.

It is a mucher better game when Death and the Hellheart are both left at home.

Balerion
08-02-2012, 21:43
I can see where a guthorde would speed bump a small to medium unit of zombies but not all of us OK players run them and that is probably where the disconnect comes in our views. If a VC player is regularly facing a guthorde with the proper banners and a hell heart then it would seem OK are real nightmare where as someone like me running MMU looks at VC as a real challenge even with a hell heart.
I understand your perspective, and it's the same thing that makes me hate the Hellheart. I have an ethical objection to using the Lore of Death, so I hate putting that in my VC lists, and I don't care to spam Ethereal units that I don't enjoy for the sake of winning a game, so my options against Hellheart Ogre hordes are pretty limited. I need to get in there with my CC vamps and IoN casters to get the business done, but when I do that an unfortunate Hellheart roll can lose me the game instantaneously, without the Ogre player really earning it through tactical effectiveness or smart maneuvering. He just needs to rush forward at me with his M6, T5, W5 wizard and then avoid flubbing the random distance roll (which is the saving grace of an otherwise greatly overpowered item).

Doommasters
09-02-2012, 04:06
I understand your perspective, and it's the same thing that makes me hate the Hellheart. I have an ethical objection to using the Lore of Death, so I hate putting that in my VC lists, and I don't care to spam Ethereal units that I don't enjoy for the sake of winning a game, so my options against Hellheart Ogre hordes are pretty limited. I need to get in there with my CC vamps and IoN casters to get the business done, but when I do that an unfortunate Hellheart roll can lose me the game instantaneously, without the Ogre player really earning it through tactical effectiveness or smart maneuvering. He just needs to rush forward at me with his M6, T5, W5 wizard and then avoid flubbing the random distance roll (which is the saving grace of an otherwise greatly overpowered item).

Thats it they charge in and drop the nuke, BOOOOOOM you lose a bunch of guys maybe even a caster and your magic phase ends. Before your next magic phase your units die from CR as you have to endure two rounds of combat without any magical support GAME OVER!

HH reads; almost every single game you can end the magic phase of you opponent at a critcal moment and maybe even kill some caster all for 50pts. If you are playing VC or TK you may have just won the game congratulations you ROCK!

Darkminion
09-02-2012, 08:50
So, when playing a High Elf army with the Vortex Shard you guys instantly loose the game also?

I'm sorry, but if a losing a single magic phase loses you the game, you really should try something else. The new Vampire book has lots of options instead of bunkering up and raising troops.

D...

Toe Cutter
09-02-2012, 13:11
This is nice. Thought I might see a thread like this on warseer when I heard how the new vampires magic works and sure enough I'm not disappointed. Previous to your new book I had thought that games workshop were just indulging in more 'lets crap on the beastmen' - a sport that they seem inordinately fond of - when I first heard about the hell heart. Now I see that it wasn't just us that the hell heart was designed for. Without wishing to appear smug, the beastmen have been dealing with this little dilemma since shortly after the new ogres book came out. If you want to know how to deal with it, go ask a competent beasts general (ie not me). Really though, you all seem like fairly intelligent fellows; if you spent less time wailing that the sky is falling and more time giving the situation some thought (Balerion - looking at you) then perhaps a set of ideas could be developed to combat the situation.

So the thing costs 50pts so its either going to be on a fairly unprotected (as unprotected as ogre characters get anyway) hero chassis or a lord chassis thats either going to be quite defensive (4+ ward and hell heart say) or undefended and moderately hitty (again - as undefended as ogre characters get). Is there any way you can snipe the character who's got it before they can get in range. Either shoot him, spell him or get something into combat with him or his unit that can kill him off or at least hold him in place (I'm thinking a fast paced monster perhaps or these vargheists that you now have - if they all direct their attacks at the character, can they kill him off before return attacks kill them?).

Its got variable range so the further you can keep your casters from the unit the better. Have you got enough chaff drops to find out where the character is likely to be and can you deploy to maximise the distance between your characters and him so as to give you enough time to bring whatever plan you have to get rid of him in to play.

Anyways you have to destroy magical items?

Can you defend your casters with wards?

Have you got any defensive items that will nullify the worst effects of miscasts.

Have you got any rapidly deploying redirectors that can direct the hellheart bearers unit away from your casters.

Can you alter your army composition or the deployment of your army to maintain effectiveness and make yourself less susceptible to the hell heart (meta game changes - deal with it basically).

Can you attack effectively in waves rather than as a long line? Can you stack regiments behind eachother while keeping your casters in effective range of eachother. Basically can you introduce one caster at a time into the effective range of the hell heart so that he can only get one or two at any one time.


Or you could just ignore all of the above.

Moses
09-02-2012, 13:42
Thats it they charge in and drop the nuke, BOOOOOOM you lose a bunch of guys maybe even a caster and your magic phase ends. Before your next magic phase your units die from CR as you have to endure two rounds of combat without any magical support GAME OVER!

HH reads; almost every single game you can end the magic phase of you opponent at a critcal moment and maybe even kill some caster all for 50pts. If you are playing VC or TK you may have just won the game congratulations you ROCK!

Isn't this the same thing that happens when you roll poorly for winds of magic? (not potential damage to the caster, just being able to cast nothing)

ewar
09-02-2012, 15:14
Thats it they charge in and drop the nuke, BOOOOOOM you lose a bunch of guys maybe even a caster and your magic phase ends. Before your next magic phase your units die from CR as you have to endure two rounds of combat without any magical support GAME OVER!

HH reads; almost every single game you can end the magic phase of you opponent at a critcal moment and maybe even kill some caster all for 50pts. If you are playing VC or TK you may have just won the game congratulations you ROCK!

Don't be hysterical. This could happen due to a number of different items - vortex shard, cube of darkness, even a poor roll for the winds! Try and plan for such events, if you're losing games because of a single magic phase then it's not the hell heart at fault...

Col. Dash
09-02-2012, 20:19
Against VC it has its uses. Against other armies and armies without a lot of magic, hey look, they just wasted 50 points and a character. I have only seen one ogre army in my local army and he cackled with glee when VC came out(he used it already, its the only army book magic protection he has) and all the bandwagon gamers started jumping on board the VC wagon. The rest of us have more important things to complain about like the power imbalance between new books and old books and the insane lore trinity.