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AMWOOD co
08-02-2012, 15:18
It’s been four months now since the last update for the FAQ’s and we’ve seen 2 new books released with nothing on a few still existing issues.

This is a list of commonly asked rules questions that either a) are just that, commonly asked and not answered in GW's official FAQ's or b) Do not have a sufficient answer in the current rules and kept silent about by gentleman's agreement.

Also, suggestions are always appreciated, and my original list of 20 has expanded to... this. Some have been answered over time, but many (far too many) remain.

So without further adeiu...

General/Rulebook Questions

Basics
B01. Is line of sight bound by the position of a model's eyes (or eye sockets)? What if the model has no eyes or has eyes that can see behind itself? How should this relate to magic items/abilities that use a model's line of sight (eg. Doom Totem)?


Movement
Mv01. Is a "failed charge" conducted using the charge movement rules or the normal movement rules as far as measuring wheels and the number of wheels allowed?
Mv02. If two units with different base sizes charge a single opponent, is it more important to equalize the charging units, maximize the models or contact, or is it the charging players descretion?
Mv03. If a unit is unable to close the door when charging, the enemy closes the door instead. Does this apply even if the enemy unit is already engaged with one or more units? If so, are all units moved? If not does the charge fail?


Magic (not spells)
Mg01. Do Spell Lores from older army books follow the four restrictions listed on p31 for Choosing a Target?


Close Combat
CC01. Can support attacks be made through models with larger foot prints (eg. Cavalry character in an infantry unit)?
CC02. If a unit consists of multiple different rank-and-file model types, how are hits distributed? Do excess wounds overflow from one group of models onto the other? How are casualties removed stepping up handled?
CC03. When making a combat reform, may command models not be put in the front when the reform is complete (models in contact must stay in contact)?
If you win combat against two units and break them, you must choose one to pursue. If you roll enough movement to move into contact with the unit you chose not to pursue, is it treated as pursuit into a new enemy (and therefore destroyed)? If no do you stop 1" away?


Special Rules
SR01. Killing Blow FAQ could be clarified: is it intended that characters which are mounted on Monstrous Beasts becoming Monstrous Cavalry can be victims of Killing Blow? If so, what about special characters who are Monstrous Cavalry (eg. Archaon)?
SR02. How should special rules/items that affect units of split profile models affect the unit (eg. Frenzy on a cavalry unit)?
SR03. If a model with regeneration is struck with flaming attacks and non-flaming attacks in the same initiative step, is it allowed to regenerate the non-flaming attacks?
SR04. If a character with regenration is in a unit without and the unit is wounded by Flaming Attacks, does the character lose his regeneration for that phase?
SR05. Can abilities that affect models in base contact affect those making supporting attacks (eg. the Nightshroud affects models in base contact and removes strength bonuses from weapons, would models making supporting attacks be able to use their strength bonuses)?
SR06. Can Sniper be used in combination with Multiple Shots?
SR07. If a chariot has no crew, what WS and Ld are used, the steed? If the chariot is mounted by a character, is his WS used?
SR08. Do units with the Scouts special rule count as the last deployed units when using the Alternating Units rules for determining who goes first?
SR09. Are units that cause Fear in certain units (eg. Units with Flaming Attacks cause fear to Cavalry) immune to Fear from these units? Immune to Fear in general?


Characters
Ch01. How are Breath Attacks and (Thunder)Stomp used in a challenge, are they directed only at the opposing model in the challenge?
Ch02. Can a character Make Way! after the first round of a combat?
Ch03. Must a Frenzying unit pass a Berserk Rage test before a character can charge out of the unit or does the character's charge make the unit unable to charge itself?
Ch04. Can a unit have 3 or more characters with odd footprints in it (eg. Orcs in a goblin unit)? If so, how can the characters be placed?
Ch05. If a multipart model with separate parts that can be slain (eg. a character on a monster or chariot) is hit by a template that forces a characteristic test and each part is hit then which value is used for each test, the part that was hit or the best (p10, characteristic tests)? If a failed test removes 'the model', does just that part die or is the whole model killed?
Ch06. If a multipart model with separate parts that can be slain is hit by a spell or ability that affects 'every model in the target unit', is it hit just once or once for each part (eg. Dwellers Below, Flames of the Phoenix)? If just once, how is it then resolved?
Ch07. Can a character who cannot be the general (eg a battle standard bearer) have a higher Ld than the general?
Ch08. If a model is called upon to make an individual Ld test (ie. not the unit), and is inside a unit, if the unit is within range of a battle standard but the model is not, can the model re-roll? Same with Inspiring Presence?
Ch09. Some chariots have only characters for 'crew'. What WS is used for hitting said chariots? If the character dies, what Ld is used for the chariot?
Ch10: If the general's unit and another unit are both affected by an area of effect special rule that reduces their Ld (eg. The Hell Totem, Aura of Dark Majesty) then will this be applied twice, once to modify the general's Inspiring Presence and then once more to the unit?


Warmachines
Wm01. Which WS does a Warmachine use when being attacked if it has more than one value, the highest or the majority (eg. Orc Bully, Anvil of Doom)?
Wm02. Can a cannon fire towards a unit it has Line of Sight to if it doesn't have Line of Sight to a point on the ground a suitable distance ahead of the target? Can a cannon fire towards a unit it doens't have Line of Sight to if it does have Line of Sight to a point in front of it?
Wm03. There are some models that fire 'like' a specific kind warmachine without being one (eg. Hellcannon, Scraplauncher). Do they follow all the rules for 'Shooting With Warmachines' on p109 (unless stated otherwise)? Does the Ironcurse Icon work against them?
WM04. Must a warmachine select its target within Line of Sight before pivoting?


Reference Section
R01. Is a magic lance or mounted spear used past the first round of combat (p90: lance vs reference: I'm Using This One)? If not, may you use a special weapon rather than a hand weapon?
R02. If a model in a challenge was swapped using the Smoke and Mirrors Shadow Lore Attribute, is the new character now part of that challenge or is the challenge ended?
R03. If a wizard uses Smoke and Mirrors on the turn he charged, can the model model inflict Impact Hits as if he were charging (eg. an Ogre wizard or a wizard on a chariot swapping for another character)?
R04. For the Lore of Beasts spell Curse of Anraheir, is open ground to be counted as Dangerous Terrain?
R05. How will the Other Trickster's Shard affect a unit with a Ward Save? eg. A Chaos Lord with the Shard, in a unit of Warrriors, fighting a unit of Phoenix Guard. Will Warriors in contact with Phoenix Guard in contact with the Lord be able to take advantage of the item?
R06. Can a magical vortex be cast a) towards a unit in combat? b) by a wizard in combat?
R07. If an individual model in a unit is called upon to use its own "unmodified Ld" (e.g. Spirit Leech), do you use the highest in the unit or the Ld on its profile?
R08. If a model has an ability granted by a magic weapon (e.g. Empire Sword of Justice allows the bearer to re-roll wounds), does that apply to only close combat attacks or any attacks made by the characters (e.g. spells or ranged attacks)?
R09. Can bound items be used in conjunction with arcane items such as scrolls that don't provide a casting bonus? E.g. using the Tricker's Shard and Ruby Ring of Ruin in conjunction with each other.


Army Specific:

Orcs and Goblins:
O&G01. Does Gaze of Mork allow Look Out Sir rolls? Does it hit more than 1 model per rank?
O&G02. The cost of the Orc with Two Hand Weapons on p96 (8 points) is not consistant with the unit entry on p104 (7 points). Which of these is correct?
O&G03. Do Fanatics and Mangler Squigs obey the 1" rule? If so, how are they handled if they land within an inch of a unit and there is no room to move them due to other units?
O&G04. If a Squig Herder unit has only Night Goblins left and it flees, Does the Squigs Go Wild rule take effect?


Warriors of Chaos:
WoC01. How should Mark of Khorne and the Banner of Rage be applied to Chaos Chariots, Chaos Knights, and Marauder Horsemen; to one element or to all?
WoC02. If a model fails its Fear test and tries to attack a model with the Mark of Nurgle, is it then incapable of attacking from having WS0?
Woc03. What is the unit type of a character mounted on an infantry mount (eg. Chaos Palanquin)?
WoC04. Are Archaon's attacks doubled before or after any other modifiers (eg. Frenzy)? Can his total attacks from the unleashed Slayer of Kings exceed 10?


Daemons of Chaos:
DoC01. What is the unit type of a character mounted on an infantry mount (eg. Chaos Palanquin)?
DoC02. Can Siren Song be used on a unit in a building?
DoC03. Are daemonic icons fully "magic items" including the uniqueness restriction, or simply "magic items" for rules and effects that target magic items?
DoC04. Will a character with the Torment Blade gain +1A for having 2 hand weapons? Will this apply to any other gifts?


Lizardmen:
Lm01. If Cupped Hands is used to trade off the effects of a miscast to a model which has a special rule concerning miscasts (Horrors, Taeclis, etc.), does the special rule involving miscasts take precedence over the miscast result?
Lm02. Is a Slaan in a Temple Guard unit forbidden from casting spells that hit everything in their path (eg. Burning Head) since the model in the first rank will be hit or should this model be ignored?


Skaven:
Sk01. Does Cracks Call allow Look Out Sir rolls? Can it hit more than 1 model per rank?
Sk02. How will a Warpfire Thrower resolve a Stand and Shoot if the distance the template moves is insufficient to contact the enemy (Stand and Shoot assumes to be within maximum range of the weapon), even if a 10 is rolled?
Sk03. Does Strength in Numbers apply to special rules or attacks that check leadership but are not explicitly a test, eg. Banshee Scream?


Dwarfs:
Dw01. Can the Rune of Challenge be used on a unit in a building?


High Elves:
HE01. Does the Loremaster's Cloak provide a save against spells that are resolved like close combat attacks (Bladewind) or inflict combat attacks (Horekhah's Incantation of Smiting)?
HE02. If Vaul's Unmaking is used on an item that has already used it's effect (eg. Storm Banner, Sivejir's Hex Scroll) does the effect end?


Beastmen
Bm01. Does the Hagtree Fetish work with the Feedback Scroll? With a spell that wounds without using Strength (eg. The Caress of Laniph, Lore of Metal spells)


Ogre Kingdoms
OK01. If a wizard is hit by a spell from a butcher/slaughtermaster/fire belly with the Greedy Fist, will he lose wizard levels? If so, is it one per hit or one per spell?
OK02. If the Hellheart causes a model which has a special rule concerning miscasts (eg Teclis, Horrors of Tzeentch) to roll on the miscast table, does the special rule involving miscasts take precedence?
OK03. Does Golfag Maneater have Stubborn and Vanguard when not accompanying his maneaters? May he use different rules from Been There, Done That?
OK04. Can the Rune Maw redirect a miscast of the spell The Maw?


Vampire Counts
VC01. Can the Lore Attribute be used to heal characters or their mounts?
VC02. Does Invocation of Nehek will heal only one Wound on a Vampire model in a single casting. As Blood Knights only have one Wound each, can it raise multiple models?


Tomb Kings
TK01: If a unit is accompanied by a model with My Will Be Done is affected by a spell or ability that reduced its WS, (eg. Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma), does the unit ignore the reduction in favour of the character's unmodified WS?


Empire
Em01. How does a Regimental Unit give Steadfast to a Detachment?
Em02. Does a Steamtank get an Armour Save against wounds caused by its Misfire table? Any other saves?


I'll keep this post continually updated with the current state of these questions. Also, as I own only a small portion of the books, I don't have all the burning questions, so feel free to ask more on the thread below.

Past incarnations of this thread are here: 1.0 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?283201-Errata-FAQ-wishlist), 2.0 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?289524-FAQ-wishlist-2-0) and 3.0 (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?297427-FAQ-Wishlist-3-0).

Update log:
2012/02/12 - Added Sniper Question to SR, added OK2-4, removed chariot without crew question from TK and DoC and put it in G-SR. Removed O&G fanatic vs. Mangler question. Fixed some minor placement errors, examples, and typos.
2012/03/21 - Added VC02 and Sk03.
2012/04/22 - Added SR08 and 09. WM04 added.
2012/04/24 – Added Ch10, TK01, and Em01. All the new books have at least one question of their own now.
2012/04/27 - Modified Em01. Added Em02.

AMWOOD co
08-02-2012, 15:22
Well, here we are, the fourth incarnation of my FAQ Wishlist. It didn't take long to edit as the only Rulebook FAQ change that was made was an errata for the power scroll (while appreciated by many, it is woefully inadequate when faced with the over twenty questions still here).

To Vampire players, I've posted the general debate as a general question, as it's implications also apply to Ogres, Skaven, and anyone with a Battle Standard (ie. everyone).

Also, to anyone who has an email or site for GW that will actually take a list this large to consider answers, it would be highly appreciated if you would either post said contact means on this thread or PM it to me. Alternatively, just forward this thread's URL and let them browse through.

Well, let the Chaos begin.

Lord Inquisitor
08-02-2012, 15:45
There are a few that are out-of-date (we know the base size of a mangler now). I would suggest that you divide your rulebook questions into the subheadings as presented in the FAQ.

I've a whole bunch to add to this but a few off the top of my head:

- If two models strike at the same initiative value and one has flaming attacks but the other does not, would a regenerating enemy be able to use it's regeneration save against the non-flaming attack if it is wounded by the flaming attack?
- If an individual model in a unit is called upon to use its own "unmodified Ld" (e.g. Spirit Leech), do you use the highest in the unit or the Ld on its profile?
- If a mounted model is Frenzied, does its mount gain Extra Attack as well?
- Can a model that fires like a war machine but is not unit type war machine pivot before firing?
- Can abilities that affect models in base contact affect those making supporting attacks? E.g. the Nightshroud affects models in base contact and removes strength bonuses from weapons. Would models making supporting attacks be able to use their strength bonuses?
- If a unit is unable to close the door when charging, the enemy closes the door instead. Does this apply even if the enemy unit is already engaged with one or more units? If so, are all units moved? If not does the charge fail?
- If a model has to pick a target in Line of Sight, does that also automatically mean it has to be in forward Arc too?
- If a model has an ability granted by a magic weapon (e.g. Empire Sword of Justice allows the bearer to re-roll wounds), does that apply to only close combat attacks or any attacks made by the characters (e.g. spells or ranged attacks)?
- If you win combat against two units and break them, you must choose one to pursue. If you roll enough movement to move into contact with the unit you chose not to pursue, is it treated as pursuit into a new enemy (and therefore destroyed)? If no do you stop 1" away?
- If a character is called upon to make an individual Ld test (NOT the unit), and is inside a unit, if the unit is within range of a battle standard and the character is not, can the character re-roll?
- Are grapshot attacks made by a cannon subject to the "to hit" modifiers for multiple shots, long range, moving, etc.?
- If a character with regeneration is in a unit and the unit is hit by a flaming attack does the character lose regeneration (or vice versa)? What about if he is in a challenge? Will a character lose regeneration even if the unit he is with does not have regeneration?

Ogres:
- Are miscasts caused by the Hellheart affected by items that negate or otherwise affect miscasts (e.g. cupped hands, etc.)?
- Does Golgfag gain the Been There, Done That rules of a maneater unit other than Golgfag's Maneaters? Does have have Stubborn & Vanguard if he is not accompanied by his unit or if they are all dead?
- Can the Rune Maw banner be used against a "misfire" result on The Maw spell?

Vampires:
- Can the Lore Attribute be used to heal characters or their mounts?

I will add more as I think of them. Unless anyone can get you in contact with whoever collates the FAQs then I think mailing a paper copy to the design studio with a link to an online copy included would be your best bet.

Harwammer
08-02-2012, 16:23
I've got a few off the top of my head and a few I came up with earlier:

Does a model that fires like a stone thrower / cannon / bolt thrower have the Move or Fire and/or Slow to Fire rules when firing in this way?

I think your TK question should be expanded to general as Empire also can have a crewless chariot (War altar).

What weapon skill is used (if any) when rolling to hit against a chariot which has no crew but does have a character riding it? If the character's is used then what weapon skill is used once he dies?

Page 6: Moving direcly towards another unit: the text implies the unit gets a free pivot before moving, is this the case? Units that fail a charge use this rule but may wheel around interposing impassable terrain. Can other units that move in this fashion also wheel around interposing units / impassable terrain?

P113: Are chariots pulled or crewed by a creature that would normally be considered a monstrous beast or monstrous infantry (e.g. razorgor chariots) be able to stop a cannonball bounce by surviving the hit?

P107/134: Is the General selected at list selection (p134) or does p107 (selecting the general) mean this choice is not finalised until deployment starts?

Can bound items be used in conjunction with arcane items such as scrolls that don't provide a casting bonus? E.g. using the Tricker's Shard and Ruby Ring of Ruin in conjunction with each other.

I've got more but I don't want to bog your thread down with them.

I've sent you a PM with an email address in. I don't know if it's any good.

Artiee
08-02-2012, 18:46
Is this just a running list of FAQ? or is this a Updated list removing the ones that have been FAQed?

There are some that have been answered in FAQ.

Artiee
08-02-2012, 19:00
•O&G01. - its not FAQed but works like Penumbral Pendulum on shadow. Line is still a templete.
•O&G02. The cost of the Orc with Two Hand Weapons on p96 (8 points) is not consistant with the unit entry on p104 (7 points). Which of these is correct?

•O&G03. I beleve thats explained in the OnG FAQ. Q about the fanatics. bullit 3.

•O&G04. Just like if a single model runs into it. Fanatic into Mangler -> The Mangler dies, and fanatic get 3D6. Mangler into fanatic -> fanatic dies and does 2D6

•O&G05. We know this one. 60mm we have a model now.

sorberec
08-02-2012, 21:26
The email address GW published in White Dwarf a few months back is gamefaqs@games-workshop.co.uk but, having fired off some questions myself and having not even had an acknowledgement that it's beeen received I don't know how often (if at all) it's checked

Anyway, queries from me:

G - The Ironcurse Icon says it provides a "6+ ward save against war machine weapons". Does the phrase "war machine weapons" limit the effects of this to damage caused just units of type War Machine, or does it mean any unit that has a weapon that would normally be found on a war machine? i.e the cannon on a Steam Tank, the giant bow that can be taken on a Stegadon, the scrap launcher etc.

HE - Are models in the same unit as the Banner of the World Dragon able to benefit from the effects of Lore attributes (e.g. Smoke and Mirrors, Lifebloom (or whatever the Lore of Life attribute is called))

HE - When a spell is cast on a unit with the Banner of the World Dragon does it automatically end as it cannot affect the unit or does it still remain in effect but not affecting the unit for as long as the Battle Standard Bearer carrying the Banner of the World Dragon is alive?

Example 1: The Withering is cast on a unit with the BotWD and the roll for effect is -2 to Toughness. Does the spell still remain in play, and so if the model carrying the BotWD dies the -2 to Toughness comes into effect, or does it end as soon as it is cast on the unit.

Example 2: Soul Blight from the Lore of Death is cast on the unit containing the BotWD. Does the spell end immediately or does the effect last for its normal duration, meaning that if the model carrying the BotWD is killed in the following shooting or close combat phases, the unit is affected by the spell?



HE/O - The Thundertusk's "Numbing Chill" special rule gives the Always Strikes Last rule to units within 6". High Elves have Always Strike First thanks to their Speed of Asuryan rule which grants them ASF "regardless of the weapon they are wielding" and so for the most part High Elf models within the range of Numbing Chill will resort to striking at their Initiative value. However, Sword Masters, White Lions and any High Elf characters armed with Great Weapons already have the Always Strikes Last rule from the weapon (although it does not affect them due to the Speed of Asuryan). As they cannot have Always Strikes Last twice does this mean that they are immune to the effects of Numbing Chill or do they also now strike at Initiative order?

popisdead
08-02-2012, 21:45
Beastmen
Bm01. Does the Hagtree Fetish work with the Feedback Scroll? With a spell that wounds without using Strength (eg. The Caress of Laniph, Lore of Metal spells)




Can the Bloodfrenzy (or whatever it is called) rule take a model above 10 attacks?

Can Beastmen units use the BRB ambush rule instead?

If a Shaman with the lore of shadow, in a Chariot charges, then after successfully casting a spell uses Smoke and Mirrors to swap with another (likely more deadly) character in the combat phase will the swapped character still get Impact Hits even though it wasn't his chariot specifically that charged? If so, if there is a difference between chariots, whose chariot does the Impact Hits?

geldedgoat
09-02-2012, 01:12
Warriors of Chaos: During what steps of the combat phase do units engaged with a unit with the mark of Nurgle target the Nurgle unit? Does the targeting only occur while the other unit is attacking? Or does it persist beyond that step, when the Nurgle unit attacks back?

dementian
09-02-2012, 02:25
Warriors of Chaos: During what steps of the combat phase do units engaged with a unit with the mark of Nurgle target the Nurgle unit? Does the targeting only occur while the other unit is attacking? Or does it persist beyond that step, when the Nurgle unit attacks back?

Already answered I'd say

Page 110 – The Mark of Nurgle
Change the second paragraph to “A model with the Mark of
Nurgle is difficult to target. Ranged attacks that target him are
at -1 To Hit. Models that target him in close combat are at -1
WS.”

When you are attacking him he is not targeting you you are targeting him so he is only at -1 WS when attacking not when being attacked.

Lord Inquisitor
09-02-2012, 02:34
That reminds me of a couple of related questions:
- If a model is WS1 and is affected by a spell or ability that inflicts -1 WS, does this make them WS0 and unable to attack/hit automatically in combat?
- If a model fails its Fear test (becoming WS1) and is under the effect of a spell or ability that reduces its WS by 1, does it become WS0?

Artiee
09-02-2012, 03:18
Orc. If a Squig Herder unit has only Night Goblins left and it flees, Does the Squigs Go Wild rule take effect?

Lord Inquisitor
09-02-2012, 04:04
Oh and another one for orcs:
- Can fanatics be released in such a way that they pass through the parent unit (fanatics released from the back of a unit through another can ensure a unit must take double damage from all fanatics).

AMWOOD co
09-02-2012, 06:48
Wow. What a load of responses. Umm...

Well, I've read through everything now. I didn't post every question that came up as some have been discussed and answered briefly (I do post things that keep coming up). I do want to address a few of these, however.


•O&G01. - its not FAQed but works like Penumbral Pendulum on shadow. Line is still a templete.

•O&G03. I beleve thats explained in the OnG FAQ. Q about the fanatics. bullit 3.

•O&G04. Just like if a single model runs into it. Fanatic into Mangler -> The Mangler dies, and fanatic get 3D6. Mangler into fanatic -> fanatic dies and does 2D6

•O&G05. We know this one. 60mm we have a model now.

Going through your responses to the greenskin questions:
1. Where's it say that? Same with Crack's call. There's nothing saying to treat it like a cannonball.
3. That only explains when the fanatic goes through a unit. What if it stops short? Also, we're told to leave a fanatic that goes through and stops short of another unit. Is this a definitive answer? Many don't think so.
4. Probably, but I'd like this one in black and white.
5. ...and nobody told me? Can I get a link to the model please? I'd like to see it.


There are a few that are out-of-date (we know the base size of a mangler now). I would suggest that you divide your rulebook questions into the subheadings as presented in the FAQ.

I've a whole bunch to add to this but a few off the top of my head:

Ogres:
- Are miscasts caused by the Hellheart affected by items that negate or otherwise affect miscasts (e.g. cupped hands, etc.)?
- Does Golgfag gain the Been There, Done That rules of a maneater unit other than Golgfag's Maneaters? Does have have Stubborn & Vanguard if he is not accompanied by his unit or if they are all dead?
- Can the Rune Maw banner be used against a "misfire" result on The Maw spell?

I will add more as I think of them. Unless anyone can get you in contact with whoever collates the FAQs then I think mailing a paper copy to the design studio with a link to an online copy included would be your best bet.

Wow. Thanks for the list, though you did double some of the ones I already had. You'll also see that I split them up into categories for the main book (don't ask for better ordering, I'm not doing it).

I'm leaving the Ogre ones for a bit until I can crossreference with my buddy who plays Ogres and we can figure out exactly what the conflicts are. I've never heard of these issues and I'm not sure I understand them here. Alternatively, send me a link for a thread on the discussion.


Can the Bloodfrenzy (or whatever it is called) rule take a model above 10 attacks?

Can Beastmen units use the BRB ambush rule instead?

What's special about Bloodfrenzy that it would allow you to exceed 10 attacks?

As to your second question... no. Ambush is defined in the Beastman book, overriding the main rulebook.

----

Once again, wow. Just over 12 hours and all this. Well, let me know if anything else has been answered and keep 'em comning. Oh, and Harwammer. Thanks for the link. I'll get on that... tomorrow, it's off to bed for me now.

Edit: Oh, posted the edit for all this, doing the breaking up I mentioned in response to Lord Inquisitor. Interesting how Reference and Characters far outstrip the others for rules issues.

geldedgoat
09-02-2012, 07:48
Already answered I'd say

Page 110 The Mark of Nurgle
Change the second paragraph to A model with the Mark of
Nurgle is difficult to target. Ranged attacks that target him are
at -1 To Hit. Models that target him in close combat are at -1
WS.

When you are attacking him he is not targeting you you are targeting him so he is only at -1 WS when attacking not when being attacked.

No, that's the errata the created the question in the first place. The army book wording is crystal clear. The 7th edition errata was crystal clear (stupid, but clear). This errata, however, is not. Close combat targeting isn't explained in the BRB, and it certainly never says anything that could be used to support your interpretation (and, unfortunately, it also never says anything to contradict your interpretation either).

Harwammer
09-02-2012, 11:54
Nicely presented. Hopefully one of the FAQ team will take some time with this and consider at least some of these points to resolve/clarify.


The email address GW published in White Dwarf a few months back is gamefaqs@games-workshop.co.uk but, having fired off some questions myself and having not even had an acknowledgement that it's beeen received I don't know how often (if at all) it's checked

When I've seen that address publish they tend to add the disclaimer it's not for rules queries so they probably won't respond to you but they'll look what they receive to see if they want to include it in a FAQ. Well, that's what GW claim, for all we know it might go straight to bin and we just feel like we've done our bit for the next round of FAQs :P.

Artiee
09-02-2012, 12:03
Going through your responses to the greenskin questions:
1. Where's it say that? Same with Crack's call. There's nothing saying to treat it like a cannonball.
3. That only explains when the fanatic goes through a unit. What if it stops short? Also, we're told to leave a fanatic that goes through and stops short of another unit. Is this a definitive answer? Many don't think so.
4. Probably, but I'd like this one in black and white.
5. ...and nobody told me? Can I get a link to the model please? I'd like to see it.



I dont know how you see it any differantly with #4. But Ok, but I think putting stuff on there that you just want better clarification weakens the list.

Heres the GW Mangler.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440081a&prodId=prod1390124a

Lord Inquisitor
09-02-2012, 15:29
5. ...and nobody told me? Can I get a link to the model please? I'd like to see it.
Lol you missed it? It made quite a buzz when it was released. There was a fair bit of ... discussion about the price. :rolleyes: Still that thing is freaking massive.


Wow. Thanks for the list, though you did double some of the ones I already had. You'll also see that I split them up into categories for the main book (don't ask for better ordering, I'm not doing it).
Well have a look at the ones that seem to double up, some of them are subtly different. In some cases just need a bit of extra clarity - you asked about rules and mounts but it would be good to specifically give frenzy as an example as that's the most common question.

As for better organisation let's wait until we have a more definitive list and I'll go through and add all the page numbers. I've got all the books now I think.


I'm leaving the Ogre ones for a bit until I can crossreference with my buddy who plays Ogres and we can figure out exactly what the conflicts are. I've never heard of these issues and I'm not sure I understand them here. Alternatively, send me a link for a thread on the discussion.
- The hellheart question was perhaps the most often asked question about Ogres and it oddly didn't make it into the FAQ. The exact conflict stems from the fact that the hellheart causes a "roll on the miscast table" as opposed to causing the enemy wizard to miscast. This is compounded by the fact that e.g. cupped hands says "if the bearer miscasts" or something like that. There are loads of threads on this question - here's (http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=23507.0) the most recent.
- Golgfag's FAQ just wasn't very clear. Yeah OBVIOUSLY he gets Stubborn and Vanguard when with his Maneaters. What if he isn't with his maneaters? He's a lot more useful as a Stubborn character than as an upgrade to maneaters. Thread here (http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=23269.0).
- Rune Maw works on "enemy spells" but if you misfire The Maw spell, the enemy gets to place the template. Can you use the Rune Maw (it is technically your spell but it's placed by the enemy). Thread here (http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=23206.0).

Actually there's a FAQ roundup thread over on the Stronghold here (http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=21106.0)for Ogres that can all really be included. It has my questions plus a bunch more. Might be well worth checking all the army-specific forums to see if they have similar documents.

Oh, I thought of another general one:

- Can a model with the Sniper rule use it in conjunction with multiple shots?

Harwammer
09-02-2012, 15:34
Oh, I thought of another general one:

- Can a model with the Sniper rule use it in conjunction with multiple shots?

Ooh! I remember that one. Good call.

My answer is "yes, but only if the character has installed a zero recoil hack" :P

AMWOOD co
10-02-2012, 03:43
I dont know how you see it any differantly with #4. But Ok, but I think putting stuff on there that you just want better clarification weakens the list.

Eh, it comes down to I believe the intention would be for them to instantly kill eachother, but you're probably right. That one goes.


Heres the GW Mangler.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440081a&prodId=prod1390124a


Lol you missed it? It made quite a buzz when it was released. There was a fair bit of ... discussion about the price. :rolleyes: Still that thing is freaking massive.

Yes, cool model, but the price... I bought units of 30 for less than that. Heck, my rulebook costs less than that. I thought only forgeworld or batallion boxes came to that much...

enough about that, moving on.


Well have a look at the ones that seem to double up, some of them are subtly different. In some cases just need a bit of extra clarity - you asked about rules and mounts but it would be good to specifically give frenzy as an example as that's the most common question.

As for better organisation let's wait until we have a more definitive list and I'll go through and add all the page numbers. I've got all the books now I think.

Well, thanks. As for your questions, some are very similar and didn't seem to need to be included (I already had the Regeneration vs. Flaming at same initiative), and I will change the example for the Special Rules for mounted models to Frenzy so everyone knows the most common example.


- The hellheart question was perhaps the most often asked question about Ogres and it oddly didn't make it into the FAQ. The exact conflict stems from the fact that the hellheart causes a "roll on the miscast table" as opposed to causing the enemy wizard to miscast. This is compounded by the fact that e.g. cupped hands says "if the bearer miscasts" or something like that. There are loads of threads on this question - here's (http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=23507.0) the most recent.
- Golgfag's FAQ just wasn't very clear. Yeah OBVIOUSLY he gets Stubborn and Vanguard when with his Maneaters. What if he isn't with his maneaters? He's a lot more useful as a Stubborn character than as an upgrade to maneaters. Thread here (http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=23269.0).
- Rune Maw works on "enemy spells" but if you misfire The Maw spell, the enemy gets to place the template. Can you use the Rune Maw (it is technically your spell but it's placed by the enemy). Thread here (http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=23206.0).

Actually there's a FAQ roundup thread over on the Stronghold here (http://www.ogrestronghold.com/forum/index.php?topic=21106.0)for Ogres that can all really be included. It has my questions plus a bunch more. Might be well worth checking all the army-specific forums to see if they have similar documents.

Oh, I thought of another general one:

- Can a model with the Sniper rule use it in conjunction with multiple shots?

Hmm, never thought of those that way. Interesting. The Hellheart one would fall under the same line as Cupped Hands vs. Teclis, wouldn't it?

Oh, and the Sniper question gets added on, but I want to throw a little more to it. Wasn't one of the ideas presented that only a normal shot could work? Would that exclude every special rule?

oldWitheredCorpse
10-02-2012, 07:16
What weapon skill is used (if any) when rolling to hit against a chariot which has no crew but does have a character riding it? If the character's is used then what weapon skill is used once he dies?

Seconded! I want to know this too.

Also, on TK, I want to know whether Settra's Chariot of the gods benefit from the "Chariot legions" rule or not (extra strength hits).

AMWOOD co
11-02-2012, 05:11
There, did the update I said I'd do, but something went screwy between Notepad and... everything else. Had to copy it all to word and spend time refortatting it. Ughh... Well it's now a Word document so it shouldn't happen again (of course shouldn't and won't are two different things). As the update log at the bottom says, I also did a few other minor changes... but I'm leaving WoC01 as a separate question from SR02 intentionally.

Wesser
21-03-2012, 15:49
Might as well add mine

- How many Blood Knights are raised by Invocation of Nehek?

- Can Skaven use Strength in Numbers for such things as Banshee screams? SiN states they add the bonus for LD tests, but Banshee screams aren't a test per se. It just uses the targets leadership.

- For older books such as Bretonnians battlestandard are prevented from using shields or greatweapons for instance. In the case of Bret the actual model even comes with a shield. Rectify?

- Does a character in a unit that causes fear need to test for fear against fear-causing enemies? (e.g. Prince in Phoenix Guards)

Lord Inquisitor
21-03-2012, 16:21
- How many Blood Knights are raised by Invocation of Nehek?
Given that they're vampiric, one? Is there an argument otherwise?


- Can Skaven use Strength in Numbers for such things as Banshee screams? SiN states they add the bonus for LD tests, but Banshee screams aren't a test per se. It just uses the targets leadership.
Right. I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise. It might be worth considering as a FAQ though as it does come up "frequently."


- For older books such as Bretonnians battlestandard are prevented from using shields or greatweapons for instance. In the case of Bret the actual model even comes with a shield. Rectify?
More of a "suggestion" than a FAQ, but it'd be nice to see.


- Does a character in a unit that causes fear need to test for fear against fear-causing enemies? (e.g. Prince in Phoenix Guards)
This one is clear in the rules. p69 Essentially if there are any models subject to fear in the unit, the unit tests but any models immune to fear are immune to the effects. So if you have two characters in a unit of phoenix guard, you would test once for the unit, if failed, then both the characters would be WS1 but the phoenix guard would not.

__________________________________________________ _______________


AMWOOD, did you upload the word file you made? If not can you email it to me? We should get this polished up and sent off.

Hell Storm
21-03-2012, 16:33
Given that they're vampiric, one? Is there an argument otherwise?
There is an argument that has quite a bit of merit. Invocation of Nehek states that units of non-infantry only gain 1+ caster level number of wounds. It goes on to say that Vampiric, Ethereal or large target models only gain one wound. Since Blood knights (or Hexwraiths) are both non-infantry and Vampiric (or Ethereal) both apply but the second is null and void because each model only has one wound and so can only gain one wound per model anyways.

Lord Inquisitor
21-03-2012, 16:59
Okay, I see how that could be read that way. Valid question. It'd certainly make Blood Knights more favourable!

Grimgormx
21-03-2012, 18:48
Originally Posted by Harwammer

What weapon skill is used (if any) when rolling to hit against a chariot which has no crew but does have a character riding it? If the character's is used then what weapon skill is used once he dies?

The WS of the beasts that are pulling it.

Grimgormx
21-03-2012, 18:55
•CC04. If you win combat against two units and break them, you must choose one to pursue. If you roll enough movement to move into contact with the unit you chose not to pursue, is it treated as pursuit into a new enemy (and therefore destroyed)? If no do you stop 1" away?

You dont need to choose a unit to pursuit unless your winning unit is fighting enmies from different sides (front, flank, rear) if all fleing units are in the same side of the winning unit (front, flank or rear) then the rules for a single combat are used (you destroy all units that roll lower than pursuer)

The multiple combat rule of choosing a unit to pursue only apply when engaged in different sides.

Grimgormx
21-03-2012, 19:01
B01. Is line of sight bound by the position of a model's eyes (or eye sockets)? What if the model has no eyes or has eyes that can see behind itself? How should this relate to magic items/abilities that use a model's line of sight (eg. Doom Totem)?

IMHO you always use front arc, unless the model has special rules, it doesnt matter how the mini is modeled (or we will see a lot of zombies with an extra head watching their backs, mutated orc shammans with an eye in a tentacle....)

Grimgormx
21-03-2012, 19:03
Sorry.... is a Faq Whislist.... forget my posts

AMWOOD co
22-03-2012, 03:06
Might as well add mine

- How many Blood Knights are raised by Invocation of Nehek?

- Can Skaven use Strength in Numbers for such things as Banshee screams? SiN states they add the bonus for LD tests, but Banshee screams aren't a test per se. It just uses the targets leadership.

- For older books such as Bretonnians battlestandard are prevented from using shields or greatweapons for instance. In the case of Bret the actual model even comes with a shield. Rectify?

- Does a character in a unit that causes fear need to test for fear against fear-causing enemies? (e.g. Prince in Phoenix Guards)

Lord Inquisitor is usually quite good at figuring out which have definitive answers and which don't. Personally, I've never heard the Nehek arguement in regard to Blood Knights before, and it does indeed have merit, so I'll add it. I'm also adding the Skaven one, but the Bretonian one and the fear one are rather cut and dry (as much as we may not like the Bretonian one. Personally, my group has retroactively houseruled it so they act as the current books do).


AMWOOD, did you upload the word file you made? If not can you email it to me? We should get this polished up and sent off.

I'll send it to you as soon as I have these new questions added... and as soon as I figure out how on this system...


Sorry.... is a Faq Whislist.... forget my posts

Ah, you thought these were questions needing answers right now. Understandable. The sheer quantity might have been a tip off, though, especially as I am the most vocal on at least one of these (Chaos Knights and Frenzy) here on Warseer. Still, if you've got something to add, feel free to speak up. Anything where more than one answer is reasonably possible is welcome.

Hell Storm
22-03-2012, 11:17
As for the Strength in Numbers question, I think they cleared it up in the Faq. You can only use SiN when taking Leadership test, not when using leadership as a stat to compare against. The way SiN was originally printed, you could use it for things like the banshee scream. But with the new Faq to change the wording, you can't.

Symrivven
22-03-2012, 12:54
How are, abilities/attacks that don't directly fall in either the close combat or ranged category like the mangler squig ker-splat or hex wraiths spectral hunters rules, dealth with against models that have different protection from ranged and close combat attacks, for example corsairs with sea dragon cloaks, warmashine's and blood knights with the flag of blood keep?

Lord Inquisitor
22-03-2012, 16:13
We can perhaps make that simpler still.

"What is the definition of a ranged attack?"

Kudzu
22-03-2012, 16:37
Can characters join units with the "unique" unit type?

Do scouting units count for who gets the +1?

Hell Storm
22-03-2012, 20:00
Do scouting units count for who gets the +1?

Note the wording on Scouts. It never states that they deploy. It uses the wording "set-up' instead. So the answer for this is no.

Lord Inquisitor
22-03-2012, 20:07
Do scouting units count for who gets the +1?

Note the wording on Scouts. It never states that they deploy. It uses the wording "set-up' instead. So the answer for this is no.
Ha, if this isn't in the list already, it needs to be. Certainly it is a frequently asked question. Hell Storm, I don't think your argument holds water ("The players ... alternate deploying their scouting units one at a time,") but I'd love to see a FAQ on this, because I doubt the intention was that they count for the +1. Then again, maybe it was? They didn't count in 7th, for sure, perhaps it was intentionally changed? Good suggestion.

Smogg
22-03-2012, 20:38
Special Rules:
Does hits from contact caused by models such as Hexwraiths and Goblin Fanatics count as ranged or close combat attacks when determining defending toughness against a War Machine? Furthermore if the attacks count as ranged, can Ward Save vs Ranged attacks can be used (Flag of Blood Keep)?

Grimgormx
23-03-2012, 20:14
Fanatics and hexwraights arent ranged neither close combat attacks, are just special, with its own rules. so no, you cant use ward saves versus ranged attacks, maybe if you had a WS vs wounds caused by "distribute as shooting" (Random) attacks....

Ranged attacks are used in shooting phase (and sometimes in magic phase)
Close combat attacks are done in close combat phase, and you may parry them (with a hand weapon and shield)

Smogg
23-03-2012, 23:53
Fanatics and hexwraights arent ranged neither close combat attacks, are just special

... and war machines use crew toughness for close combat and war machine toughness for ranged attacks. I think we already have a lengthy debate on intend and interpretation, but it would be very nice to have it clarified in a FAQ.

With all respect for your opinion, i suggest we continue the discussion in: in http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?336257-Hexwraiths-moving-through-Warmachines until it has been FAQ'ed

Odin
01-04-2012, 10:12
Can a banshee use its howl to target an enemy unit that is in combat?

It is in the shooting phase, but does it have to adhere to the rules for shooting attacks? It is described as a "special attack".

Lord Inquisitor
01-04-2012, 16:50
Yes, that is a good question. It says that the banshee/terrorgheist can fire into combat if it itself is in combat, but it doesn't address whether it can fire into combat if itself is not engaged.

geldedgoat
01-04-2012, 21:04
Can a banshee use its howl to target an enemy unit that is in combat?

It is in the shooting phase, but does it have to adhere to the rules for shooting attacks? It is described as a "special attack".

The answer would have to be no, wouldn't it? The entry only gives three exceptions, and the enemy being engaged in close combat with a unit other than the banshee's isn't listed as one.

NitrosOkay
02-04-2012, 00:24
Can a character issue one challenge per combat or one challenge per close combat round. The book seems to say one thing then later on says "Further challenges in that combat cannot be issued until the current challenge is resolved" indicating that you can issue more than one challenge per combat.

Lord Inquisitor
02-04-2012, 00:59
Gelded, that was my conclusion too but it wasn't obvious on a casual read through and I'd like to see some clarification as it seems to intend any unit in range regardless.

NitrosOkay, I've never heard of this as an issue before, I've always seen it played that providing a challenge is not currently underway, a new one can be issued at the start of any round of combat.

NitrosOkay
02-04-2012, 03:08
Be that as it may the wording is not clear and a FAQ answer would be helpful because there's deep disagreement about it where I play.

Warlord Gnashgrod
02-04-2012, 06:15
Well, you can only attack once per combat round anyway. i mean, if you defeat the enemy character, you aren't able to immediately issue another challenge and then fight again in the same cambat round. Not until the next combat round. So I think the question doesn't matter.

NitrosOkay
02-04-2012, 07:07
Well, you can only attack once per combat round anyway. i mean, if you defeat the enemy character, you aren't able to immediately issue another challenge and then fight again in the same cambat round. Not until the next combat round. So I think the question doesn't matter.

No I mean. The book says you can only issue one challenge per combat period. In any of the rounds.

Then contradicts itself and implies you can issue one every round if there's no other challenge going on.

AMWOOD co
03-04-2012, 19:56
No I mean. The book says you can only issue one challenge per combat period. In any of the rounds.

Then contradicts itself and implies you can issue one every round if there's no other challenge going on.

I wouldn't say that it contradicts itself, but rather that it completes the statement. After all, one thing to understand is that there is only one challenge allowed in each combat as compared to only a single challenge on the entire field of battle. That isn't to say that you cannot have subsequent challenges within the same combat, for at any time there is only one.

The reason this isn't in here (it popped up quite some time ago) is that no one plays it any other way thanks to that last sentence. It's the only way it makes sense. We can rave about GW's poor writing, but the point managed to get across in this one.

T10
03-04-2012, 21:25
1. If a model causes Fear in a type of models, is he immune to Fear caused by that type of model?

Example: A model with the Flaming Attacks special rule causes Fear in cavalry models. Is the model immune to Fear caused by cavalry models with the Fear special rule?

2. If a model causes Fear in a type of models, is he immune to Fear in general?

Example: A model with the Flaming attacks special rule causes Fear in cavalry models. Is the model immune to Fear caused by a Monstrous Infantry model with the Fear special rule?

-T10

Walgis
04-04-2012, 20:55
scouts. when seeing ho gets +1 for deploying first. do scouts count or not? that is if you deploy scouts does that mean that you dont get +1? althou you finished deploying your other units faster?

Hell Storm
04-04-2012, 21:33
scouts. when seeing ho gets +1 for deploying first. do scouts count or not? that is if you deploy scouts does that mean that you dont get +1? althou you finished deploying your other units faster?

Already asked on the previous page.


Can characters join units with the "unique" unit type?

Do scouting units count for who gets the +1?


Note the wording on Scouts. It never states that they deploy. It uses the wording "set-up' instead. So the answer for this is no.


Ha, if this isn't in the list already, it needs to be. Certainly it is a frequently asked question. Hell Storm, I don't think your argument holds water ("The players ... alternate deploying their scouting units one at a time,") but I'd love to see a FAQ on this, because I doubt the intention was that they count for the +1. Then again, maybe it was? They didn't count in 7th, for sure, perhaps it was intentionally changed? Good suggestion.

Mati
05-04-2012, 10:37
AFAIK in previous warhammer editions scout deployment didn't count for who gets the +1 on a roll. Such a change would limit their tactical advantage too much for what they actually do. But a clear answer would be appreciated.

AMWOOD co
22-04-2012, 19:57
Okay, so I finally got around to adding a few things. The Scouts issue was added (can't believe I never saw that before) and the Fear questions T10 brought up. This especially made me wonder regarding multi-unit combats: Bretonian peasants with Flaming arrows engaged against a Scraplaucher and a unit of Bulls for example. Do they Fear the bulls but not the launcher?

I also added in the Warmachine pivoting issue that's popped up recently, specifically if the target is selected before the pivot occurs. I've worded it this way to keep it simple and as unbiased as possible.

Well, it's been four months now since our last 'monthly' FAQ update. I'm looking forward to the next rulebook errata/FAQ's, but I'm wondering if they'll change any of the older (6th and 7th edition, excluding Skaven and Beastmen) book FAQ's from this point on since they seem so content to replace them all.

Edit: I know that there are a number of issues popping up with the Empire already (eg. Steadfast and Detachments, how's that work?), but my Empire opponent recently moved to Winnipeg so I haven't been paying attention. Little help?

Lord Inquisitor
22-04-2012, 20:02
I was just thinking about the list. I'll have a look over any additional questions but I think it's time to put this together and send it (probably best snail mail) to the design studio.

Algovil
22-04-2012, 23:22
Just a few thoughts, not sure if some of the questions on front page are old:

Ch01: Has not this been discussed, maybe even FAQed?
Ch07: Of course, you may use the generals LD.
Wm01: The attacker should be able to choose to direct attacks vs models with low WS, since those models in fact do the fighting, just as you can direct attacks vs rank and file or characters in ordinary close combat, that is how I would play it.
Wm02: Just avoid differentiating between units and the ground, you can place the initial aiming point at any point as long as you have line of sight to that point, simple as that.
R06: No restrictions, can be cast in any direction from the wizards frontal arc.
VC01: Of course! Any reason it should not?

AMWOOD co
23-04-2012, 09:35
Just a few thoughts, not sure if some of the questions on front page are old:

Ch01: Has not this been discussed, maybe even FAQed?
Ch07: Of course, you may use the generals LD.
Wm01: The attacker should be able to choose to direct attacks vs models with low WS, since those models in fact do the fighting, just as you can direct attacks vs rank and file or characters in ordinary close combat, that is how I would play it.
Wm02: Just avoid differentiating between units and the ground, you can place the initial aiming point at any point as long as you have line of sight to that point, simple as that.
R06: No restrictions, can be cast in any direction from the wizards frontal arc.
VC01: Of course! Any reason it should not?

Yes, some of them are very old, but that doens't mean they're resolved.

To Ch01: This is a literal F.A.Q. (Frequently Asked Question). It pops up again in some form on these forums at least once a month, or so it seems. We are told that Stomp and Thunderstomp don't affect models out of a challenge, but this isn't the same as that they do affect models in the challenge (though most of us make the leap of logic).

To Ch07: This has nothing to do with Inspiring Presence. You are familiar, I take it, with the debate recently about whether you CAN field a Wight King if you have a Necromancer Lord as your general in a Vampire army? Same question except generalised to all armies. Must the general have the highest Ld among your characters without exception?

To Wm01: A warmachine is one model, so there's no directing. Which of its WS do you use, especially if a character (eg. Runelord) is present?

To Wm02: What if you can see a unit over a small wall (say 1" high) that effectively blocks you from seeing the ground and this wall is 20" in front of the target? What if the wall is tall enough to block the unit completely but is only 5" in front of the unit you want to hit, leaving the target point on the ground visible? Will either of these prevent you from firing?

To R06: It's a literal F.A.Q. that GW hasn't answered. Many of us may know, but you'll see the question soon.

To VC01: Another literal F.A.Q. dealing with the rule limiting the healing of undead. Does it apply to the Lore Attribute? We'll be seeing this question again.

Remember that not every question on here doesn't have an answer, it's just that enough can't see the answer.

T10
23-04-2012, 12:25
Q1. When a model's characteristic value is substituted for a different value and is also subject to a modifier, does the modifier apply to the substituted value?

E.g. A model gains +1 WS and has his WS reduced to 1 due to a failed Fear test. Is his effective WS value 1 or 2?

Q2. When a model's characteristic value is substituted for a different value, and the source value is subject to a modifier, does model get the modified value?

E.g. A general with Ld 9 is subject to a -2 Ld modifier. Does the models within his Inspiring Presence range get to use the Ld value 9 or 7?

Q2. When a model's characteristic value is substituted for a different value, and both his value and the the source value are subject to modifiers, does the sum of the modifiers apply?

E.g. A general with Ld 9 is subject to a -2 Ld modifier. A model within his Inspiring Presence range is subject to a -3 Ld modifier. Does the model use the Ld value 9, 7 or 4?

-T10

Algovil
23-04-2012, 14:10
Yes, some of them are very old, but that doens't mean they're resolved.

To Ch01: This is a literal F.A.Q. (Frequently Asked Question). It pops up again in some form on these forums at least once a month, or so it seems. We are told that Stomp and Thunderstomp don't affect models out of a challenge, but this isn't the same as that they do affect models in the challenge (though most of us make the leap of logic).

To Ch07: This has nothing to do with Inspiring Presence. You are familiar, I take it, with the debate recently about whether you CAN field a Wight King if you have a Necromancer Lord as your general in a Vampire army? Same question except generalised to all armies. Must the general have the highest Ld among your characters without exception?

To Wm01: A warmachine is one model, so there's no directing. Which of its WS do you use, especially if a character (eg. Runelord) is present?

To Wm02: What if you can see a unit over a small wall (say 1" high) that effectively blocks you from seeing the ground and this wall is 20" in front of the target? What if the wall is tall enough to block the unit completely but is only 5" in front of the unit you want to hit, leaving the target point on the ground visible? Will either of these prevent you from firing?

To R06: It's a literal F.A.Q. that GW hasn't answered. Many of us may know, but you'll see the question soon.

To VC01: Another literal F.A.Q. dealing with the rule limiting the healing of undead. Does it apply to the Lore Attribute? We'll be seeing this question again.

Remember that not every question on here doesn't have an answer, it's just that enough can't see the answer.

If you look on it that way I agree, questions frequently asked , not necessarily questions without an answer.

Ch07: I understand, my point was to show that Inspiring presence was FAQed. Now that I am taking a close look in the BRB: page 107 quote: "The general is the character in the army with the highest Leadership". That is a fact, so I change my point of view.

Wm01: I have to take a look at the rules here, I would think that since the combat is carried out using six models from attacking unit vs the crew of the warmachine (you use the stats of the crew for close combat right?) you could play the fight as just ranking those models up against each other, but that is a thought, nothing more, nothing less.

Wm02: Hm, I would say that if you can see a model in the unit, then you can place the initial target point directly below that visible part, so to speak, if you can not see the ground behind the wall, then you should not be able to aim at that point ahead of the unit, even though you can see the unit, I do not find this confusing actually.

VC01: I agree a FAQ, but IMO there should be no need, ask yourself: why not? Quote from book: "the wizard (or another model within 12")" recover a wound. Why even make an exception for mounted characters, just follow the rule as written. No ambiguity at all here.

@T10:

Q1: Good question, I would say WS1 at all times after a failed fear test, that makes sense to me, but this is a good question for sure.

Q2: Similar question has been FAQed as far as I know, regarding inspiring presence and unmodified leadership etc. In this case Inspiring Presence would be ld7 of course, why would it be ld9? Keep in mind that Inspiring Presence is optional to use for other units, say a unit have ld8, then he can use that instead of the generals, if the generals ld have been reduced.

Q3: Same thing here, logically the unit could use the ld of the unit, and subtract -3ld from this OR he can make use of the generals leadership per Inspiring Presence, in this case ld7 AND then subtract -3ld here as well for a ld4. Again why would it be any other way?

Lord Inquisitor
23-04-2012, 17:36
VC01: Of course! Any reason it should not?
This was due to a gaff in the VC rules. The rules say that a spell may not give wounds back to characters unless stated otherwise. The Lore attribute does not state otherwise, but it seems extremely likely that the intent is that it should give wounds back to characters.


Q1. When a model's characteristic value is substituted for a different value and is also subject to a modifier, does the modifier apply to the substituted value?

E.g. A model gains +1 WS and has his WS reduced to 1 due to a failed Fear test. Is his effective WS value 1 or 2?
Good question. Although the much more often asked question is if it is reduced by 1 is it 0? Also: if a model is under two or more effects that substitute their characteristic (e.g. weapon or spell that gives WS10 and failed Fear test gives WS1), which takes precedence?


Q2. When a model's characteristic value is substituted for a different value, and the source value is subject to a modifier, does model get the modified value?

E.g. A general with Ld 9 is subject to a -2 Ld modifier. Does the models within his Inspiring Presence range get to use the Ld value 9 or 7?
I don't see why the general wouldn't pass on his modified value. It doesn't say "may use his unmodified Ld", so I fail to see why his Ld, whatever it currently might be, would not be passed on, modifiers and all.


Q2. When a model's characteristic value is substituted for a different value, and both his value and the the source value are subject to modifiers, does the sum of the modifiers apply?

E.g. A general with Ld 9 is subject to a -2 Ld modifier. A model within his Inspiring Presence range is subject to a -3 Ld modifier. Does the model use the Ld value 9, 7 or 4?
How is this question different to the previous one? We know that modifiers will apply to the unit's Ld regardless of whose Ld it uses:

Q. If an enemy unit is within 12” of the Great Icon of Despair
and the unit is within the general’s Inspiring Presence radius, does
the Leadership value conferred by Inspiring Presence suffer the
modifier even if the General is not within 12” of the banner? (p95)
A. Yes.

So if the general's Ld is passed on, then the -3 stacks on top of that.

Here's a really naughty question that is along these lines:

- If a general and a unit are both within range of an area effect that reduces Ld, do both apply from the same source?

E.g. A unit (Ld 7) is in range of the general (Ld 9). Both are within range of a Vampire with Aura of Dark Majesty (units within range of one or more vampires suffer -1 Ld). The general becomes Ld8, passes it onto the unit. But the unit is also in range. Does the unit become Ld7? Or is the modifier applied only once?

T10
23-04-2012, 19:30
There was a hidden intent behind those questions that you touched upon with special abilities that affect multiple units.

The way I see it a unit should use an unmodified base value for its characteristic and then apply its own modifiers to that value. It just sits wrong with me to apply the same modifier TWICE, which is what you do if you replace the dependent base value (before modifiers) with the modified parent value and then apply the dependent model's modifiers.

That's a lot of fancy talk to get to the fact that if an Orc general (Ld 9) and a Goblin (Ld 6) are both subject to the Aura of Dark majesty, then the by first modifying the General's Ld you get Ld 8 that he can spread around, but then the Goblin gets Ld 7 when it to has to take into account the Aura. That adds up to a -2 penalty from an ability that only actually provides a -1 penalty.

Sure, that just means that you apply common sense and just add the condition that the dependent models don't apply modifiers from any source that has already been applied to the parent value. But what is the "same source"? If the Orc general and the Goblin were affected by two different Vampires each with the same Aura ability, how is that different from being affected by just one?

Again you apply common sense: The Aura would normally not apply multiple penalties to a unit within range of multiple Vampires, so we jusr make sure that the dependent models don't apply the same modifiers of the same TYPE of source that has already been applied to the parent value.

The same line of thought can bring you into the realm of characteristic modifying spells (both the Orc and the Night Goblin are subject to the same spell, or the same spell cast twice, once on each of the two) and different spells that affect the same characteristic.

It seems to me that common sense is both the boon and bane of this particular issue. It makes sense that a scared or disoriented general is less effective, that scared or disoriented troops are less effective then their unaffected counterparts, but that these two factors on combination need to be moderated... Somehow.

I think it's safe to assume that GW is going to make a half-assed attempt at addressing the issue that somehow makes it all worse.

Lord Inquisitor
23-04-2012, 20:17
Urgh, okay I see. Well, I would certainly ask the question outright rather than a bunch of leading questions because you can bet your boots they won't see the implication.

Right now it is a question that needs to be asked because certainly it is the case that if the general's Ld is modified, it is passed on to the troops and if the unit's Ld is modified then that modifier is applied to the inspiring presence.

AMWOOD co
23-04-2012, 23:29
I'm trying to compose this issue into proper questions, and noted to myself that it also applies to one other issue we see all the time: My Will Be Done for Tomb Kings.

So, how do these sound:

Ch10: If the general's unit and another unit are both affected by an area of effect special rule that reduces their Ld (eg. The Hell Totem, Aura of Dark Majesty) then will this be applied twice, once to modify the general's Inspiring Presence and then once more to the unit?

Tomb Kings:
TK01: If a unit is accomanied by a model with My Will Be Done is affected by a spell or ability that reduced its WS, (eg. Melkoth's Mystifying Miasma), does the unit ignore the reduction in favour of the character's unmodified WS?

I don't really like the wording, so I need some help from a few word smiths.

brynolf
24-04-2012, 20:09
Edit: I know that there are a number of issues popping up with the Empire already (eg. Steadfast and Detachments, how's that work?), but my Empire opponent recently moved to Winnipeg so I haven't been paying attention. Little help?

The steadfast detachment issue has been discussed on several forums and no consensus so far. Basically it all comes down to the fact that the Steadfast rules in the BRB itself can be interpreted in different ways with regard to exactly when a unit is steadfast (so it can pass it on to its detachment). So maybe the question could be as "simple" as:

Q: When exactly is and when is not a unit Steadfast?

sorberec
24-04-2012, 20:39
Basically it all comes down to the fact that the Steadfast rules in the BRB itself can be interpreted in different ways with regard to exactly when a unit is steadfast (so it can pass it on to its detachment).

How many ways can it be interpreted? Steadfast has to be one of the clearest rules in the book. Do you have more ranks of 5 or more models than any enemy unit in combat with you? If yes and you lost combat then you're Steadfast, if not then you're not.

Lord Inquisitor
24-04-2012, 20:55
The issue is that the Empire parent unit passes on Steadfast onto detachments. What if the parent unit isn't in combat? What if it is in a different combat (especially if fighting an enemy with more ranks?) What if the parent is in a wood or otherwise ineligible to be Steadfast? And so on.

AMWOOD co
24-04-2012, 23:11
How about we keep the detachment and steadfast question simple and direct.

Empire
Em01. How does a detachment gain Steadfast from its parent unit?


Oh, and I've updated the list back on page one to include the two questions in my previous post and this one.

T10
25-04-2012, 05:31
I would suggest:

Q1. We notice that a few units always get to count as being Steadfast due to being Stubborn, or having garrisoned a building, but for most units this comes into play when they are in combat with enemies that have fewer ranks than themselves. How does the Detachment gain Steadfast from the Regimental unit if the latter is not in combat or is in a different combat?

Q2. When a Detachment both gains Steadfast from the Regimental unit but also loses Steadfast (because it is in a forest, perhaps), does the Detachment lose Steadfast?

Algovil
25-04-2012, 08:40
Good formulation, overall I would like us to try and narrow down the list, not sending questions which can be answered. We know GW can not answer all questions, and the more questions we send, the lower the chance that those we really need answering are in fact resolved.

AMWOOD co
25-04-2012, 19:28
I would suggest:

Q1. We notice that a few units always get to count as being Steadfast due to being Stubborn, or having garrisoned a building, but for most units this comes into play when they are in combat with enemies that have fewer ranks than themselves. How does the Detachment gain Steadfast from the Regimental unit if the latter is not in combat or is in a different combat?

Q2. When a Detachment both gains Steadfast from the Regimental unit but also loses Steadfast (because it is in a forest, perhaps), does the Detachment lose Steadfast?

Hmm... well, it looks too much like you are taking one side of the arguement T10 (though I know I've been guilty of that from time to time on issues). Q2 seem to assume that the mechanic used is about whether the parent unit IS steadfast now and not if the parent unit WOULD be steadfast in the same situation, something that I know was suggested in the relevent threads here. The only way Q2 would still apply if the latter case is true would be if the parent unit is Stubborn, and since steadfast is passed but not stubborn, we would then need to ask the question, "If a regemental unit is stubborn then will it pass steadfast on to a detachment in a forest or similar terrain where only stubborn units may be steadfast?" To me the obvious answer would be, "No, the detachment is not Stubborn," but that's just me.

As for Q1, you are asking the same question, granted with more detail, after restating the rules for steadfast. Is it necessary to repeat the rules of steadfast before asking how it is used? Also, the mechanic they use may be independent of whether the parent unit is in combat or not, so that's not really the issue either (if they're both in the same combat, it's obvious). The issue is, "By what criteria can a regimental unit make a detachment steadfast?"

A note: I haven't seen the current Empire book, but I have seen the previous three incarnations and so if I constantly state the older term 'parent unit', that's simply how I think on the issue.

T10
26-04-2012, 10:05
I think you are over complicating things here:

Q2. makes the assumption that the Detachment will somehow gain Steadfast from the Regimental unit - it is unlikely GW will remove this from the list of benefits. As such it is distinct from whatever implementation of the rule might be revelaed in answer to Q1.

Notice also that Stubborn is a special rule that is among those passed on to the Detachment, and that being Stubborn provides an explicit exception to losing Steadfast while in a forest.


Q1. is there to remind GW that there are actually rules in place for Steadfast, and that some of these rules are persistent effects that allow the unit to count as Steadfast in the event that is should be called upon to make a break test. It further highlights the fact

DaemonReign
27-04-2012, 04:22
For the issue of Steadfast in the new Empire book:

GW needs to clarify the very basics here:

Does the regimental have to fullfill the requirements for Steadfast by itself in order to pass this on to the Detachment?
Example: The Regimental loses a combat, has more ranks than the enemy, passes the LD check and *BING* a green light goes on: 'This Unit Is Steadfast!' - it now passes to the Detachment
Or does the Detachment simply use the Regimental's Ranks as though they belonged to the Detachment for the purpose of resolving whether or not it is Steadfast vs an enemy that is fighting (but that the Regimental itself does not necessarily have to be fighting).
(And there's even in-between interpretations here.. *sigh*)

This is what needs clarification first. After which it becomes more or less simple to 'resolve the rest' with the rules we already have in place.
I don't think mixing up Stubborn and Steadfast will do us any favors on this issue.
You are Stubborn if you're inside a Building, not Steadfast. Two different things.

I know T10 read the 'specific' rules-thread on this issue, and I am sure AMWOOD has as well - it's a can of worms. It's simply breathtaking how many minutely different interpretations that surface in that thread alone.

So I think, honestly, the best thing we can do is ask GW:
How - exactly - is Steadfast being passed from Regimental to Detachment resolved?
... And then we simply need to cross our fingers that we actually get an explanation that, well, explains anything.

Artiee
27-04-2012, 16:43
Empire Steam Tank, Does the Steam Tank get armor saves on wounds from its miscast chart? There is no str on the wound. We think its a typo. If the tank would get saves it would have a str value for the wound and it would be applyed as hits.

DaemonReign
27-04-2012, 17:04
Empire Steam Tank, Does the Steam Tank get armor saves on wounds from its miscast chart? There is no str on the wound. We think its a typo. If the tank would get saves it would have a str value for the wound and it would be applyed as hits.

I don't have the book in front of me but this seemed clear to me when I read it.
It seemed pretty clear that the Stank just 'takes those wounds'. I.e. cross the wounds off from the profile, that's it (which is why there needn't be a S-value, since we're not talking about "Hits" but Wounds).

No?

Lord Inquisitor
27-04-2012, 17:37
Hmm. It really ought to say "with no saves allowed" shouldn't it? For example, Spirit Leech causes automatic wounds, but it specifies no armour (and you can get ward saves or regeneration). Artiee is correct that it should say no armour saves, but even if you take this as obvious the question goes further - a steam tank could acquire a Ward save (e.g. in range of a Luminark). Would it get this against automatic wounds?

Artiee
27-04-2012, 18:42
I played against a empire player that said that he gets a armor save vs the wounds because it doesn't say that he doesn't. I read it like you DaemonReign, that you just get that many wounds. Its the risk you take for rolling over your wounds. (know about risks.. Try 2 no magic phase in a roll because your orcs want to fight among themselves with casters in the unit)

AMWOOD co
28-04-2012, 02:46
To T10:

Huh, thanks for the bit about Stubborn. I didn't know that (once again, I have NOT read the current Empire book). I do agree with Daemonreign, however, that we need an immediate question and a 'wait and see' policy before further clarification. We don't need to cover the issue at all possible angles (and there may be angles we have not yet conceived of).

To Artiee:

Good one, though I assume you mean 'Misfire' and not 'miscast'.

DaemonReign
28-04-2012, 03:59
I played against a empire player that said that he gets a armor save vs the wounds because it doesn't say that he doesn't.

Yeah I can imagine some players would do that. :shifty:
Look, I'll bet you 'Anything' that if this one is addressed by an FAQ the ruling will be that you're not allowed Any Saves from Wounds suffered from the Stank Misfire Chart. That's completely evident from the 'type' of damage-mechanic we're talking about here. An FAQ isn't even going to allow Augmented Wardsaves or anything like that - it's just gonna be 'Cross the Wounds off from the profile, and move on'.
Still, as Lord Inquisitor rightly pointed out, this bit is indeed poorly written - it should say 'With No saves of Any Kind allowed' *somewhere* in that mechanic and I fear as long as it doesn't people are going to run into Empire-players who 'interpret' that as your opponant did.

Pray tell, how did your opponant resolve the issue of Regimentals passing Steadfast to Detachments? If the part of the Stank Misfire Wounds is any indication I'll venture the guess that he simple let the Detachment(s) count the ranks of the Regimental (i.e. the most favorable possible interpretation one could derive from that rule..)

This is all a shame really. I like Cruddace. I love the Empire and most of the new book is great as far as I am concerned. But where are the damn proof-readers?!

Asensur
28-04-2012, 11:09
I would like to add another question at the FAQ wishlist about Warmachines

Q. Which warmachines need to select a valid target within their front arc? If this restriction is applied to any warmachine, how do we determine it's front arc as they don't have any base to guess it?

And please, don't say they don't or do need front arc to shoot because people are still arguing everywhere about this.

Artiee
28-04-2012, 14:57
Pray tell, how did your opponant resolve the issue of Regimentals passing Steadfast to Detachments? If the part of the Stank Misfire Wounds is any indication I'll venture the guess that he simple let the Detachment(s) count the ranks of the Regimental (i.e. the most favorable possible interpretation one could derive from that rule..)


This is funny, this is one that he didn't think was passed since the regiment was not in combat.

AMWOOD co
28-04-2012, 16:01
I would like to add another question at the FAQ wishlist about Warmachines

Q. Which warmachines need to select a valid target within their front arc? If this restriction is applied to any warmachine, how do we determine it's front arc as they don't have any base to guess it?

And please, don't say they don't or do need front arc to shoot because people are still arguing everywhere about this.

Okay, I won't say you don't. However, you'll note the question about pivoting (which I said in said thread that I would post). If that question resolves that you pivot before targetting, then front arc doesn't matter. If it does conclude that you target before pivotting, then they've got the right of it over there.

yabbadabba
28-04-2012, 16:31
Q2. makes the assumption that the Detachment will somehow gain Steadfast from the Regimental unit - it is unlikely GW will remove this from the list of benefits. As such it is distinct from whatever implementation of the rule might be revelaed in answer to Q1. I agree. Passing on Steadfast is only at issue if the detachment is not steadfast but the parent is, as there is no double steadfast.

Notice also that Stubborn is a special rule that is among those passed on to the Detachment, and that being Stubborn provides an explicit exception to losing Steadfast while in a forest. Yup, and it is the only exception as it stands including the detachment rule.

Q1. is there to remind GW that there are actually rules in place for Steadfast, and that some of these rules are persistent effects that allow the unit to count as Steadfast in the event that is should be called upon to make a break test. It further highlights the fact I can't see how Steadfast is a persistent effect. You can only have it if defeated in combat by the enemy. That makes it very phases and order specific.


Empire Steam Tank, Does the Steam Tank get armor saves on wounds from its miscast chart? There is no str on the wound. We think its a typo. If the tank would get saves it would have a str value for the wound and it would be applyed as hits. A roll of 7 on the misfire chart means that the ST loses wounds, just like before the table where the ST loses d3 wounds immediately for misfiring the Steam Cannon - it doesn't resolve anything, it just loses them so there can be no armour save. This is in contrast to result 6 where it specifies that the wounds are S2 and distributed like shooting, so you would get saves there.
The only place that needs "no armour saves" is on that n.o.7 just to underline it. That doesn't stop Cruddace from deciding all the wounds caused from all the effects bypass armour, but when you consider 6 and 8 affect nearby uits, that makes it more powerful than the Steam Gun.

DaemonReign
28-04-2012, 16:47
This is funny, this is one that he didn't think was passed since the regiment was not in combat.

Well bless his soul!
That means he's probably not just out to find the most favorable 'interpretation' after all. :)

Sometimes it's sort of uplifting to be wrong.

EDIT
... By the way, until proven wrong by the official word from GW I'm very certain that the Bound Prayer for Empire Warrior Priests called "Soulfire" has a simple syntax-error in the latest Empire Book.
I know you haven't read it AMWOOD.. But it comes down two this:
Soulfire amongst other things inflict a S4 Hit on any enemy in base contact with the Priest casting, and if you're a Daemon/Undead you take a S6 Hit instead. Now, because of that little 'syntax error' the sentence that means to explain the (obvious) fact of these hits allowing "No Armour Save" simply ends up relating to only the S6 Hit [and not the S4 Hit].

So RAW currently is that if Soulfire goes off and you're a Goblin you take a S4 Hit with all normal saves available, while if you're a Skelleton you take a S6 Hit 'with no Armour Saves allowed'.
Which is just very, very wierd. Especially since it'd be a completely New, and extremely meaningless, 'change' to how these things have always worked before:
- Lore of Light and Priest Prayers getting an increased number of Hits/Strength when targetting Daemons/Undead is 'common practice'.
- Why Cruddace would think intentionally making "No Armour Saves" conditional on this would be a good idea, is beyond me though.

Besides, if you read the sentence in the actual book that describes this it's pretty evident somehow in the way it's written that a 'comma' somewhere has become a 'full period' and thus minutely changed the bearing of the last sentence. I can post the exact wording later if needed..

AMWOOD co
02-05-2012, 07:55
Okay, I've been poking around at Warhammer.org.uk lately and found two lists for their FAQ lists to be sent off related to specific books (the one for Beastmen was actually the inspiration for my wishlist). There was an Ogre FAQ list (http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=93118) and a Vampire FAQ list (http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=99812). It should be noted, however, that the Ogre one has not actually been updated since the Ogre FAQ was released in December.

Why do I bring these up? Well, perhaps someone more knowledgeable in these armies can tell me if there is anything significant on those lists that I should include. There are a few things that seem worthless (The two army composition questions are really the same question and are wishful thinking if the Tomb Kings are any indicator), but there may be a gem or two still (and I feel no guilt for ripping questions off of another source).

T10
07-05-2012, 07:45
Q. It sometimes happens that only part a unit of rank-and-file troops are subject to a special effect from a spell, a special rule, a magical item and so on (e.g. The Other Trickster's Shard affects models in base contact with the bearer). When this makes it easier to damage the affected models (or harder!) then it is very interesting indeed how attacks against the unit are resolved.

Q.1: If the unit is hit by shooting attacks, does the owning player allocate the hits among the affected and unaffected models in the same way as he allocates hits between rank-and-file and characters in a combined unit?

Q.2: If the unit is hit by a shooting attack that uses a template, are hits allocated among affected and unaffected models in accordance with which models were actually hit?

Q.3: If an enemy model is in combat with the unit and is in contact with both an affected and an unaffected model, can he direct his attacks against the "weaker" model? Considering how casualties among rank-and-file are always removed from the rear of the unit, can the attacker kill more of the "weaker" models than there currently are in the unit?

(Yes, I realize Q.2 is a no-brainer. It is included for sake of completion.)