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Captain Semper
12-02-2012, 15:19
I just read "The Lion" - part 1 by Gav Thorpe that is published in Hammer & Bolter 17. I think it's a great read and the portrayal of the Lion exactly in line with my perception for the character. Has anyone read it yet? What do people think?

I particularly liked the Lion's increasingly paranoid and distrustful behaviour, fast desiscion making, and no-nonsense attitude. Best of all I liked the de-capitation of Nemiel! Good riddance! :D Let's expunge the legacy of Fallen Angels once and for all!

Wyrmwood
13-02-2012, 15:27
Would you say that Gav's portrayal of the Lion and the Dark Angels feels like an evolution of ADB's work in the Age of Darkness anthology, that it's conceivable that they are the same individuals and not a jarring change?

Captain Semper
13-02-2012, 18:21
I'd say yes. You can recognize the Savage Weapons Lion easily. Gav is definately playing the same characteristics up and then some. You are getting the feeling that the Lion is totally in control, he's distrustful and paranoind, he's learned from the stupid mistakes of the (crappy, crappy) "Fallen Angels" and that he is focused on victory above all other considerations. Oh, and a genious in spaceship battles to boot. The description of the manouvre reminded me of a certain Exalted! (as far as exciting space scenes go ;))

BlackLegion
14-02-2012, 08:18
Will this only be available as an e-book? .(

DarkChaplain
14-02-2012, 10:57
@BlackLegion

Nope, its gonna be in The Primarchs, alongside 3 other novellas about Fulgrim, Ferrus and Alpharius & Omegon.
The novella gets released in pieces via Hammer & Bolter, though. There's no point getting it solely for this one, though, as it'll be out soon enough (knowing Black Library, early May is likely, rather than June)

McNs
14-02-2012, 16:19
I thought this was a good characterization of The Lion, though if you haven't read Savage Weapons I think the pacing will be a bit quick and leave something to be desired regarding the Lion's character.

That said, if you've been following along, its a good continuation though definitely in Gav's style. I prefer ABD, but YMMV.

Prodigalson
14-02-2012, 19:12
I'll have to go back and re-read it again tonight. Perhaps I'm one of the minority, but I didn't feel like it was the same character from Savage Weapons to be honest. The Lion from Savage Weapons had a nobility about him that I thought was refreshing for the Legion to have. In the Lion... at least so far... he seems like he is losing his mind and is paranoid to the point of killing one of his own people for dissagreeing with him.

narrativium
15-02-2012, 11:33
'Disagreement' is putting it lightly. That was a combat situation in which the Lion gave an illegal order and the officer refused to obey it. They're both 'right': Nemiel is idealistic, in that he's loyal to the Lion and the Emperor, and doesn't want to see the Dark Angels turn against the Emperor even for a moment. The Lion is practical: he realised that the only way to defend his people from the invasion was to break the Edict of Nikaea. The immediacy of the situation demands immediate resolution of this conflict in the chain of command - and the Lion chose practically: sacrifice one disobedient soldier's life, quell rebellion and end the argument quickly in order to save the lives of many.

And in the process, the Lion commits his own Isstvan: removing one in his ranks who is loyal to the Emperor above him. That's going to have a cost.

It also, to respond to an earlier point, confounds future expectations. Anyone expecting a confrontation between Nemiel and Zahariel on Caliban will now be disappointed. Who else did you think would make it to the Siege of Terra, who you are wondering now might not?

Wyrmwood
15-02-2012, 12:33
Thanks for the info Captain Semper, and Narrativium.

It's not surprising. Gav has always played that angle with the Lion, even before the Horus Heresy began; what I like about Fallen Angels is the discussion that it produced, at the time of release. There was a huge thread on the old forums full of Dark Angel and general Horus Heresy fans discussing the events of the book, and we couldn't quite agree on the Lion's character or how it would lead into the fall of Caliban - I took this as a positive. While the book has some negative points, I am surprised to see that whenever it crops up these days people tend to shout it down while, at the time, there was at least healthy support for the novel. That isn't to say these developments are bad, but it's a shame that Gav is so quick to shoot down what nobility exists within the Lion, so soon after we've finally been allowed to see it.

Edit: I'm not really complaining though, there is a reason why he and Russ become to close, and why Konrad Curze identifies himself with the Lion. Paranoid, bestial but honour-bound to that is really quite alien to his being. Is The Lion set after Savage Weapons?

narrativium
15-02-2012, 16:39
It is set after Savage Weapons. The events of Fallen Angels and Savage Weapons both contribute to the Lion's state of mind. I'm not saying the Lion doesn't show nobility -
When I say that the Lion's order is illegal, I don't mean that the order was wrong. The Edict of Nikaea prevented the Thousand Sons and the Librarians from using their warp-based powers against real foes, but has tied the Imperium's hands against daemonic incursions where they're a justified (if risky) response. What power Magnus hoped to use openly, the Lion seeks to use only as necessary and to save lives. Nemiel was arguably too stubborn to live.

Wyrmwood
15-02-2012, 17:08
In regards to my comment on Jonson's nobility: I may have phrased my thoughts a bit clumsily, and it was more like a loose confederation of initial thoughts about a perceived backlash against Fallen Angels rather than something well constructed. Sorry about that, narrativium.

That isn't to say that I dislike him having extra dimensions, character development and depth - all to often, people have an idea about a Primarch, and then that is all they can be: which is a pretty flawed view. It's like wanting Batman stories where all Batman does is beat up thugs and brood, and never develop as a character. With what you've revealed about The Lion, and how the events of Fallen Angels and Savage Weapons contribute to Jonson's rationale, I think it's fair to say that it simply confirms what has always been there.

Prodigalson
15-02-2012, 21:30
I think that is grumbling feeling that I have about The Lion so far (as part 1 of 3). They are DARK ANGELS... and yet it seems we see the Dark about 80% of the time and the Angel about 20% of the time. Also, we know it is the right decision to make in this situation, that they need to use the psykers to throw back the demons... but how many times in the Horus Heresy series (and 40K) does expediatcy cause problems later. What if Fulgrim hadn't taken that sword on Laer, what if Horus had let himself die. What if Magnus had let the Emperor's will be done, and not his own in bursting in. Time after time we have seen that when the Primarchs start second guessing the Emperor... it doesn't end well for them. I hope that this is yet another that doesn't blow up in his face.

narrativium
16-02-2012, 11:39
Prodigalson: how do you define 'angel'? These guys aren't on clouds strumming harps, they're (symbolically) agents of divine vengeance.

Wyrmwood
17-02-2012, 00:12
I think that is grumbling feeling that I have about The Lion so far (as part 1 of 3). They are DARK ANGELS... and yet it seems we see the Dark about 80% of the time and the Angel about 20% of the time. Also, we know it is the right decision to make in this situation, that they need to use the psykers to throw back the demons... but how many times in the Horus Heresy series (and 40K) does expediatcy cause problems later. What if Fulgrim hadn't taken that sword on Laer, what if Horus had let himself die. What if Magnus had let the Emperor's will be done, and not his own in bursting in. Time after time we have seen that when the Primarchs start second guessing the Emperor... it doesn't end well for them. I hope that this is yet another that doesn't blow up in his face.
What about those that never act against the Emperor, like Rogal Dorn? He ends up a broken mess, leaving a legacy of ritualistic masochism to his scions. I'd say it just doesn't end well for anyone, no matter their choices - such is the nature of the setting.

FlashGordon
18-02-2012, 09:18
Well it seems to settle who becomes Cypher anyway. Considering cyphers power he might be a match against the Lion. (maybe)