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Disturbed Frog
14-02-2012, 11:57
So I've never played fantasy or even looked at it that much but my friend who I play 40k with bought some warriors of chaos and so I'm going to start an army. After looking through them all beastmen grabbed my attention (just over tomb kings), what I would like to know is are they good/ bad/ unplayable?
Thanks

ArtificerArmour
14-02-2012, 12:06
They're solid. Not as cheap as they could be but they have a nice range of models and tactics.

They're about on a par with tomb kings power wise. Nice army.

check out the herdstone forum and my blog in my signiture for more beastman related stuff :)

Mozzamanx
14-02-2012, 12:12
They are very good, yet unpopular for some reason. Everybody seems to relish hating on them but they are an extremely competent army. I think its probably because the initial release was very uninspiring rather than any gameplay-reasons.

On the tabletop they generally play with a mass of very efficient infantry, supported by skirmish screens and throwaway monsters to disrupt and assassinate. This is then fuelled by a battery of mages throwing out huge numbers of buffs or debuffs to swing important fights. The end result is a very powerful combat force with several disruptive elements, alongside an overwhelming magic support.

A typical Gor is 8pts. Compared to most infantry, you trade any Armour saves for T4 and M5. On top of that, you gain WS4, A2 and semi-permanent Hatred. This combines spectacularly well with Shadow and Beast magic, along with huge amounts of Power Dice, to stack spells on an important fight. It is very realistic to end up with S5, T5 Gor, landing 8/9 hits, against a WS1/I1 enemy. Needless to say this is incredibly awesome.

Staples of the army:
Gor-hordes with a BSB. They come in at 8pts per model, while the BSB grants them S4 base
Bestigor-hordes, because S6-Hatred will kill everything.
Razorgor- M7, S6, A4. Use them to assassinate enemy Mages or BSB quickly and efficiently.
Shamans around the Herdstone- There is a 50pt item called the Herdstone Shard, which grants +1 Power Dice to every mage within 6". I personally use 4 at 2400pts, meaning I will normally have about +5 Power Dice compared to the Wind of Magic roll, so maybe +6/7 dice against the opponents Dispel Pool.


EDIT: It should be noted that there are definitely some weak elements to the army. While unfortunate, its important to know so that you don't end up hating your army.
Ghorgon / Cygor / Jabberslythe- Yes, all 3 of the new monsters. All of them are overpriced to some degree and come with absolutely no defence beyond Toughness. Tragically all of our Rare choices are lacking, and so you will generally only be using the Characters, Core and Specials.
Centigor- As a unit they are very mediocre. However, if you're local group is ok with special characters, a Ghorros army actually works fairly well. Its not as reliable as a standard Beast list but it works.
Minotaurs- Opinion may be divided on this, but in my experience they are simply far, far too easy to kill. They don't really do anything that you can't accomplish with the same points in Bestigor. Note that this does not apply to the 'Bull characters, both of which are excellent.

T10
14-02-2012, 12:24
It's an in-your-face army: Fast-moving and poorly armored with above-average combat ability. It has little-to-none in the way of ranged support, and the magic is a bit one-dimensional in that you are best served by boosting the offensive capabilities of your units.

In short, Beastmen must be crushed.

Mercilessly.

-T10

BBWags
14-02-2012, 14:16
I have actually just started beastmen myself. They worry me a bit for the reasons that others have already mentioned: non-existent armor, no ranged support. But I do see the possibilities for victory. I've been watching OnceBitten's battle reports on YouTube. If you've never seen them, check them out for ideas on army lists and how to play them. I guess I'm running a pretty standard list, a couple gor hordes and a bestigor horde with a balls-to-the-walls killy beastlord and a killy Great Bray Shaman (otherwise affectionately known as the GBS) with a smattering of chariots and razorgores and herstone shamans. I think it'll end up being one of those armies where your magic phase will determine the outcome. If you get your buffs/debuffs off, you've got an excellent chance. If you don't . . . well, things might not go so hot. What pushed me over the edge toward them, however, was the awesome models. Gors are the best core models I've seen to date, so even if my win/loss ratio isn't the greatest, I'll take pride in a great looking army that will impress the enemy regardless!

mrtn
14-02-2012, 16:03
Mozzamanx give a fair account, and BBWags has a point I completely agree with, the (infantry) models are awesome!

If you want to check us out there's a link to the Herdstone in my signature. :)

Sexiest_hero
14-02-2012, 17:03
Note that, beastmen can play MSU very well. Also the doom bull with asf and ramhorn helm, may be one of the best things ever. Beastmen can also scout a GBS in a razorgor chariot, it gets very messy, in a good way.

Disposable Hero
14-02-2012, 17:47
I have a Gor herd in my Great Host of Chaos, along with some ungor raiders and a bray shaman.

Sorely tempted to get me more beasts...

Enigmatik1
14-02-2012, 19:55
Note that, beastmen can play MSU very well. Also the doom bull with asf and ramhorn helm, may be one of the best things ever. Beastmen can also scout a GBS in a razorgor chariot, it gets very messy, in a good way.
This sounds truly hilarious...let me guess, there are Brass Cleaver and Jagged Dagger shenanigans going on here too, no?

mcwolf4
14-02-2012, 20:20
beastmen got a huge boast this edtion with mass of gor's and there monsters are so much better with thunderstomp. i recently went up agianst 2 big units of mino's and 2 Ghorgon and it was a very tough game

popisdead
14-02-2012, 22:10
Mozzamanx give a fair account, and BBWags has a point I completely agree with, the (infantry) models are awesome!

If you want to check us out there's a link to the Herdstone in my signature. :)

Just voting up for those two comments. The herdstone has an excellent community with a wealth of information. If you like the models there are good ways to make them competitive and lots of fun ways to play them.

Makaber
14-02-2012, 22:25
Beastmen are hands down the most underestimated army in Warhammer. They have some truly spectacular units, and some of the best chaff in the game, but suffer a little from a bad internal balance, where some of the models are clearly worse than others and as such are rarely seen. Very fun army to play.

Enigmatik1
14-02-2012, 23:09
The only [negative] thing about the Beastmen army so far is that Centigors are expensive (both) and they don't seem to be very good. That won't stop me from buying or fielding them as they look boss, however. Being a long-time TK general at heart helps ease that pain some as I'm used to fielding overpriced, lackluster units and eventually making them work. ;)

Sexiest_hero
15-02-2012, 01:24
overpriced, lackluster units and eventually making them work.


Overpriced, only the rare, nothing is "Lackluster" bar spawn. great core, great heroes, great specials, and the awesome ghorgon. Beastmen suffer from, no broken combos.

GrandmasterWang
15-02-2012, 03:39
Even though they aren't the most competitive choices, the new Ghorgon/Cygor kit is excellent and very intimidating on the battlefield. If you plonk one of those down all of a sudden your minotaurs don't look so scary.

Gor GREAT!! Ungor and Bestigor kits are nice as well.

Others have talked about the playing so i'll focus on the big negative of the models. There isn't a 'good' (imo of course) Beastlord or Shaman model (excluding Malagor) which is a damn shame considering how good the core models are. What's available are all old metal models. I'd love to see a new plastic Beastlord ala the new Wight King.

Fun army to play and face imo. Ambush is generally frowned upon, but as a dwarf player Ambush armies put more fear into me than most if i've got lots of Artillery.

Plexi
15-02-2012, 03:53
Pros- A very decent army to play. Not over the top, but not handicapped. Good fluff that makes it fun to make theme armies if that's your bag. Reasonably mediocre investment to get into as far as price goes.

Cons- I got tired of painting 'em. I have about 50 bestigors and a razorpig left and just gave up. I've moved on to other projects. I think the burnout is from all of the models having much the same look about them coupled with the fact that there really is a large amount of core to paint with the lackluster rares they have. If you aren't a painter though this shouldn't really promote a problem.

Disturbed Frog
15-02-2012, 10:09
Thanks for the advice so far.
I was able to pick up 2 battalions really cheap and I also bought for pure aesthetic reasons
3 minotaurs, 2 Beast lords, 1 doombull, the 2 avatars of war minotaurs and the beastmen warlord.

Couple of questions.
What are good counts as for shamans? The gw ones look ugly and cost alot
Are ungors good?

Harwammer
15-02-2012, 10:23
beastmen got a huge boast this edtion with mass of gor's and there monsters are so much better with thunderstomp. i recently went up agianst 2 big units of mino's and 2 Ghorgon and it was a very tough game

I slightly disagree here. The jabber is a support monster so doesn't need a huge damage output. Also it can't stomp on warmachines or fast cav, two of it's strongest targets. The same could be argued about the Cygor when you decide to comit to combat. Furthermore, the changes to Ld rerolls from BSB has made each of these quite worse. I've used the cygor quite a lot in both 7th and 8th it's ability has had no effect at all in 8th, whereas in 7th it 1) caused a few miscasts and 2) weakened my opponents' dice strategies.

Before 8th flanking with these monsters was a nice bonus as they gave you a decent chance to break an enemy unit, whereas now this doesn't happen, but flanking is still important as step up makes it much easier for spam S3 or regular S4 to kill these two. Speaking of these two charging terror has also got much worse in the current edition, with the possible exception of the ability to attempt to redirect charges if the initial target flees (though, again, this is less likely to happen against targets in the BSB bubble).

Just my thoughts.

Harwammer
15-02-2012, 10:33
beastmen got a huge boast this edtion with mass of gor's and there monsters are so much better with thunderstomp. i recently went up agianst 2 big units of mino's and 2 Ghorgon and it was a very tough game

I slightly disagree here. The jabber is a support monster so doesn't need a huge damage output. Also it can't stomp on warmachines or fast cav, two of it's strongest targets. The same could be argued about the Cygor when you decide to comit to combat. Furthermore, the changes to Ld rerolls from BSB has made each of these quite worse. I've used the cygor quite a lot in both 7th and 8th it's ability has had no effect at all in 8th, whereas in 7th it 1) caused a few miscasts and 2) weakened my opponents' dice strategies.

Before 8th flanking with these monsters was a nice bonus as they gave you a decent chance to break an enemy unit, whereas now this doesn't happen, but flanking is still important as step up makes it much easier for spam S3 or regular S4 to kill these two. Speaking of these two charging terror has also got much worse in the current edition, with the possible exception of the ability to attempt to redirect charges if the initial target flees (though, again, this is less likely to happen against targets in the BSB bubble).

Just my thoughts.



Others have talked about the playing so i'll focus on the big negative of the models. There isn't a 'good' (imo of course) Beastlord or Shaman model (excluding Malagor) which is a damn shame considering how good the core models are.
I recommend looking at GW's Mordheim Beastmen Warband (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat490049a&prodId=prod1120023). Quite a few people use it for champions/characters.


Fun army to play and face imo. Ambush is generally frowned upon, but as a dwarf player Ambush armies put more fear into me than most if i've got lots of Artillery.
Meh, dwarfs do it better :P A few units of raiders is good to ambush though, but I don't think they'll do much to dwarf artillery beyond stop it shooting for a couple of turns provided they can dodge the OGs (probably worth it).

Mozzamanx
15-02-2012, 11:41
Malagor makes an excellent Shaman if you can greenstuff a small hole on his back, since he normally has wings. Its also extremely easy to make them from plastic Gor, only really requiring a Standard Bearers pole to make into a staff, plus some simple greenstuff pelts and a cowl.
Ungor are also very good, if expensive in terms of money. They work as both Raiders and Fighters, although you will rarely need more than 4x5 Raiders. Basically, if you only have a small number of them, make Raiders. If you have a lot (30+), make them into fighters.

Also worth mentioning that you have an extremely good start to the army and should be able to make some very nice lists with that. You may find that you have some issues in terms of the minimum 25% Core requirements, in which case more Gor or some Chariots are ideal. I would also look into getting 2-3 Razorgor, but beyond that the foundations are excellent.

Welcome to the Herd, you won't regret it!

Enigmatik1
15-02-2012, 12:28
Overpriced, only the rare, nothing is "Lackluster" bar spawn. great core, great heroes, great specials, and the awesome ghorgon. Beastmen suffer from, no broken combos.

So you don't think Centigors are overpriced and/or lackluster? Everything I've read on the matter says they are unless one also fields Ghorros.

I3uLLioN
15-02-2012, 12:38
They arent the strongest cavalry unit in the game but as part of a Beastmen army they work well as a support unit. Generally speaking I dont think they are worth taking in smaller games but a chunky unit of them (14) packs a punch.

mrtn
15-02-2012, 13:03
overpriced, lackluster units and eventually making them work.


Overpriced, only the rare, nothing is "Lackluster" bar spawn. great core, great heroes, great specials, and the awesome ghorgon. Beastmen suffer from, no broken combos.The models are certainly overpriced. Opinions are divided about the unit.


There isn't a 'good' (imo of course) Beastlord or Shaman model (excluding Malagor) which is a damn shame considering how good the core models are. What's available are all old metal models. I'd love to see a new plastic Beastlord ala the new Wight King.
Huh? :wtf: Of course opinions are personal, but I rank both the beastlord models as among the best characters ever. I totally agree about the shamans though. :)



What are good counts as for shamans? The gw ones look ugly and cost alot
Converted gor plastics look great, as do Malagor. You can also use models from other manufacturers, I use a pigman from Mega Minis. We should get a shaman model from Maelstrom soon as well.

decker_cky
15-02-2012, 17:54
So you don't think Centigors are overpriced and/or lackluster? Everything I've read on the matter says they are unless one also fields Ghorros.

I've had some decent success taking small support blocks. Not the most survivable things, but for 132 pts, 5 with music hits deceptively hard.

Ghorros lets you do interesting things, but he's ridiculously expensive (180 pts for 2 wounds, T4 5+ armour!). Where Ghorros is more interesting is in letting you escape the typical gor horde build, and use a centigor core and build the rest of your list around a bestigor horde, or a minobus. Ghorros' minimum unit and 2 other minimum centigor units fills out all the core you need (need a bit more, like a chariot, but not much).

Harwammer
15-02-2012, 18:46
I guess the benefit of Ghorros is he and his lads eat up the core %, allowing you to move away from the 206 BSB and put that gnarled hide in other funky places!

Sexiest_hero
15-02-2012, 19:02
That and his fluff is awesome his rules are great and his weapon wreaks most monsters.

Enigmatik1
15-02-2012, 19:19
Well, I was hoping to run smallish units of 6 Centigors as support since I intend for my Beastmen to have a somewhat subtle Slaaneshi theme. Just knowing that some of you guys don't consider them insta-fail is comforting. I'm not looking for powerhouse, I just want fun and potentially effective in a supporting role.

Besides, running "Centicore" would be insanely expensive monetarily...lol.

ArtificerArmour
15-02-2012, 20:11
Centigor I think would benefit IMMENSELY from being classed as fast/light cavalry. I honestly dont understand how they dont count as light/fast cav - they dont have any riders for a start!!

Harwammer
15-02-2012, 20:14
I honestly dont understand how they dont count as light/fast cav - they dont have any riders for a start!!

I think you've answered your own question here. Perhaps the writer decided the fact they weren't a traditional rider/steed combo meant they shouldn't qualify for fast cav.

Also they're massive drunks and not particularly well co-ordinated.

ArtificerArmour
15-02-2012, 20:17
More likely to go careering off at the start in a vanguard move then arn't they? :p

Doommasters
16-02-2012, 00:29
Never come up against Centigors ever, are they really horrible and not worth taking or simply over looked?

NerZuhl
16-02-2012, 02:08
Never come up against Centigors ever, are they really horrible and not worth taking or simply over looked?

They are overlooked due to the $ price tag. They aren't strong enough performers to warrant spending that kind of money on them

Munin
16-02-2012, 06:49
The Dark Emmisary works pretty well as shaman.

As for Razorgors, you will want a few, mainly for singles but maybe also for a chariot. Buy Orc Boar Rider and Chaos Spawn kits and whopido you have 5 Razorgors for the price of 1 :D.