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Cthell
14-02-2012, 20:36
Anyone else remember the good old days when "preferred enemy" applied to only a single race? It seems like these days it's just "preferred enemy - everybody" (I'm thinking Necron Destroyers particularly); previously, the only people with this ability were SoB celestians and tyranids near another nid with feeder tendrils (although that was more "preferred enemy - whoever we're fighting")

Perhaps this is a sign of a rules revision in the upcoming 6th Edition?

If so (and on a highly pedantic note) I hope they change the name to something like "skilled fighters"; claiming that a soldier has sufficient experience to predict the behaviour of every concievable enemy seems like a bit of a stretch. This would also enable "prefered enemy" to go back to what it should mean - troops with special experience fighting a specific type of enemy.

xxRavenxx
14-02-2012, 20:52
Its been over an entire edition of preferred enemy working like this.

The fact is, most units with it could pick it on a per battle basis, so it was pointless making it one type. It also caused arguments about if a Vespid is a Tau, if a Daemon is a Chaos space marine, etc.

Pretty much the only thing with a unique preferred enemy I even remember was The ultramarine veterans (xenos hunters?) who has preferred enemy: Tyranid.

I agree it should be renamed, but it won't happen. They'd have to rename the rule, then errata all the older books. Too much effort.

Demoulius
14-02-2012, 20:56
Tycho has preffered enemy:orks :)

Bu yea your right that newer units (or characters) that have the rule generally hate everyone....

Guess its to give unit/model x an edge over more generic or other cheaper units that would otherwise not see any use...

Rated_lexxx
14-02-2012, 21:26
didn't old GK have preferred enemy demons

Cthell
14-02-2012, 21:30
Surprisingly, no. They had plenty of weapons aimed at killing Demons, but they didn't have preferred enemy

Draconis
14-02-2012, 23:01
Cept that destroyers actually should have it fluffwise. Its not like they are dangerous in cc anyway. but in their fluff, they are just wanting to kill literally everything.

wyvirn
14-02-2012, 23:48
So do Berzerkers, feral Tyranids, etc. I don't see why these Necrons would be special.

Back OT, I do think that Preferred Enemy: Everything is over the top. I can see why they changed it for balance, but I think it detracts flavor and individuality from the unit. With PE:Tyranids, your guys spend decades learning to fight specifically tyranids, making them more memorable than "Space Marine Squad 5392". Now they just are good at killing everything

Besides, if everybody is your preferred enemy, would anything truly be? :p

GrimZAG
15-02-2012, 01:04
Could just be "Preferred to fight really well against all enemy"

Orthodox
15-02-2012, 01:08
Generic hatred type rules are good for gameplay purposes, to makes models good at hitting, but doesn't defend them from opponents with higher ws. Handing out the proper hatred/reckless rules of the past that caused models to always both hit and be hit on 3+ might be nice, or it might be overboard.

I think the game is at a level of abstraction that prevents these straightforward and isolated rules, and the collective effect is more important. Certainly, giving a unit preferred enemy: orks does not always make a unit good at fighting orks. The question should be how to make a unit good at fighting units that have the statline and unit options that orks do in the game, instead of just making a rule that happens to have the word ork in it. If the tyranid hunters were distinct for anything, it was more their ability to use krak grenades' strength six against monstrous creatures than for their ability to hit a gaunt on 3+, which all marines can do.

Thousand Sons and Space Wolves hitting each other on 3+ only made it easier for space wolves to win combats against thousand sons, it didn't effectively show that they hated each other. Wulfen's rules may not have been any more effective.


Tycho has preffered enemy:orks :)
Sometimes named characters do this outdated/window dressing thing as a throwback. Sicarius turns his army into 4th edition. I think it's great.

althathir
15-02-2012, 01:13
So do Berzerkers, feral Tyranids, etc. I don't see why these Necrons would be special.

Back OT, I do think that Preferred Enemy: Everything is over the top. I can see why they changed it for balance, but I think it detracts flavor and individuality from the unit. With PE:Tyranids, your guys spend decades learning to fight specifically tyranids, making them more memorable than "Space Marine Squad 5392". Now they just are good at killing everything

Besides, if everybody is your preferred enemy, would anything truly be? :p

The problem really comes down to tailoring, I have to imagine it sucked being the nid player who had to deal with PE units all the time.

That said there still are some units & characters that have abilities that more centered againist certain fractions for example vect has preferred enemy everything but he gets to re-roll wounds vs. eldar and the dark kin.

Chem-Dog
15-02-2012, 04:09
Sometimes named characters do this outdated/window dressing thing as a throwback.

With Tycho it's kinda his thing to hate Orks...they made him ugly, which made him MAD :mad: :D


As to the question....
I can see the argument for it but specific Preff'd Enemy only really shines if you're regularly fighting that one army. Ask any Crimson Fists player from the Chapter Traits days, they had to pay an extra point, per Marine, regardless of whether they were fighting Orks or not.

I suppose Preff'd Enemy could be returned to use against specific foes and a more general term for the universal "Prefer fighting" application of the rule.



Actually, I've just had an interesting thought. We've had Preff'd Enemy for virtually every Xenos Species out there but we've never had "Preferred enemy Humans" which should be justified in as much the same ways as being experienced against Tyranids generally helps regardless of what Hivefleet they belong to, Eldar regardless of the Craftworld or Comorragh address ect.
Hmm....Preferred enemy Humans. Perhaps that's one for Abaddon?

magnum12
15-02-2012, 04:43
What seems weird to me is how preferred enemy only works in close combat. You would think that as a result of fighting said enemy for decades, that knowledge of how they think and being able to predict his likely movements would also work when shooting at them. Do they suddenly lose their insight the moment they point a gun at said enemy.

GrimZAG
15-02-2012, 06:13
What seems weird to me is how preferred enemy only works in close combat. You would think that as a result of fighting said enemy for decades, that knowledge of how they think and being able to predict his likely movements would also work when shooting at them. Do they suddenly lose their insight the moment they point a gun at said enemy.

It's because everything to hit the enemy is taken care of by one roll at the moment. Increasing the BS roll seems like too much of a buff.

Cthell
15-02-2012, 07:10
Perhaps it would be better if "preferred enemy" conferred a re-roll to wound, representing knowledge of enemy weaknesses (weak armour joints, the location of vital organs etc.)?

Project2501
15-02-2012, 07:16
Turn preferred enemy into the space wolves' wolf priests' Oath of War. Before every battle, you must choose the desired unit type to have preferred enemy against. Still only works in CC.

13th guest
15-02-2012, 07:30
Personally I think they should have preferred enemy "creap". If your opponemt is really creapy you can reroll failed to hit rolls.
It opens the options of having preferred enemy "wierdo", or preferred enemy "WAAC".
But yes in an environment with people who know who they will play the point levels would be very had to judge accurately, and everyone would want preferred enemy "marines" (which I notice they never gave to anyone one not even chaos marines.

khaosmarines
15-02-2012, 07:53
i don't think that rules should ever target units from other codex's.


Generic hatred type rules are good for gameplay purposes, to makes models good at hitting, but doesn't defend them from opponents with higher ws. Handing out the proper hatred/reckless rules of the past that caused models to always both hit and be hit on 3+ might be nice, or it might be overboard.

I think the game is at a level of abstraction that prevents these straightforward and isolated rules, and the collective effect is more important. Certainly, giving a unit preferred enemy: orks does not always make a unit good at fighting orks. The question should be how to make a unit good at fighting units that have the statline and unit options that orks do in the game, instead of just making a rule that happens to have the word ork in it. If the tyranid hunters were distinct for anything, it was more their ability to use krak grenades' strength six against monstrous creatures than for their ability to hit a gaunt on 3+, which all marines can do.

agreed.

Bunnahabhain
15-02-2012, 11:53
i don't think that rules should ever target units from other codex's.

Why on earth not?

The best example is Grey knights. They should get rules that target daemons (and naturally, daemons should get something back, to retain balance), it's what they do.
The biggest problem with the current Grey knight trainwreck book is that it doesn't target daemons, it gives big bonuses against everyone, or overly broad categories (i.e any unit that deep strikes)

Hawthorne
15-02-2012, 15:20
I do believe they should just start calling it hatred or something like that except when it refers to a single race/unit (usually on special characters).
It would be cool if they used specified versions more often (and balance it with giving it to the other side, IF it makes sense).
With eldar alone they could have, and the other races could reciprocate with prefered enemy (Dark Eldar, Eldar, Necron, maybe Sisters of Battle or Templars).

SunTzu
15-02-2012, 15:53
Cept that destroyers actually should have it fluffwise. Its not like they are dangerous in cc anyway. but in their fluff, they are just wanting to kill literally everything.

That's a generous way of looking at it... both the "Destroyers hate everything" fluff, and the PE: Everyone rule they have, have only existed since the new Codex. Perhaps one was used to justify the other, but I'm not sure I'd assume it's the fluff justifying the rule rather than the other way about...

Fable
15-02-2012, 16:07
Actually, I've just had an interesting thought. We've had Preff'd Enemy for virtually every Xenos Species out there but we've never had "Preferred enemy Humans" which should be justified in as much the same ways as being experienced against Tyranids generally helps regardless of what Hivefleet they belong to, Eldar regardless of the Craftworld or Comorragh address ect.
Hmm....Preferred enemy Humans. Perhaps that's one for Abaddon?

I'd rather see "Preferred Enemy: Imperium," that way when they shove in ab-humans it doesn't raise questions or the inevitable "Space marines aren't humans, they're space marines!"

Noobie2k7
15-02-2012, 16:09
Plus necrons have the Stormlord who is actually worse against Orks. Who ever would have thought in this time of power creep a codex would have a rule in that made something worse against certain races.

Cept for GK's who are actually worse against Daemons now.

Chapters Unwritten
15-02-2012, 16:47
Preferred Enemy isn't much of a good name to begin with. All of the other things are named things that are thematic. I had written a fantasy game long ago and had need of a similar rule because of background purposes and I named it "Hated Foe" (mine does the opposite, it makes you more vulnerable because you are trying too hard to kill the enemy and not really fighting cautiously, like Luke in Return of the Jedi). It just got me to thinking how in 40k the name is sort of like the most vanilla rule name.

I think the idea of a rule that makes someone favor an enemy is a good one, but it's hard to put into play. A re-roll to wound might be good, but since we already have some stuff that does that, I'd probably say a +1 to your wound rolls might be cooler. Though that would require a total rebalance of...well, everything.

althathir
15-02-2012, 17:19
i don't think that rules should ever target units from other codex's.



Why on earth not?

The best example is Grey knights. They should get rules that target daemons (and naturally, daemons should get something back, to retain balance), it's what they do.
The biggest problem with the current Grey knight trainwreck book is that it doesn't target daemons, it gives big bonuses against everyone, or overly broad categories (i.e any unit that deep strikes)

Balancewise it does create issues both in pickup/fluffy games and in a competitive setting. In pickup games it pushes tailoring which is one of the least fun aspects for new players (and quite a few vets). In competitive settings it forces you to pay points for something you don't want or need which limits options.

If its going to be used in the old style I think it should be tied to SCs cause the point increase would probably be nominal, and with how limited hqs are have less of a tailoring feel.


Preferred Enemy isn't much of a good name to begin with. All of the other things are named things that are thematic. I had written a fantasy game long ago and had need of a similar rule because of background purposes and I named it "Hated Foe" (mine does the opposite, it makes you more vulnerable because you are trying too hard to kill the enemy and not really fighting cautiously, like Luke in Return of the Jedi). It just got me to thinking how in 40k the name is sort of like the most vanilla rule name.

I think the idea of a rule that makes someone favor an enemy is a good one, but it's hard to put into play. A re-roll to wound might be good, but since we already have some stuff that does that, I'd probably say a +1 to your wound rolls might be cooler. Though that would require a total rebalance of...well, everything.

The name does suck to be honest, Hawthorne suggested hatred which would make more sense. That said I really like the ideal of "hated Foe" but I would probably tie a bit of an advantage to it, maybe +1 int in cc, but your save counts +1 higher if that raises your save over 6+ you don't get one.

TrueKin
16-02-2012, 10:31
Plus necrons have the Stormlord who is actually worse against Orks. Who ever would have thought in this time of power creep a codex would have a rule in that made something worse against certain races.

Cept for GK's who are actually worse against Daemons now.

If I remember correctly, Orks only get a better chance to start a match against a Necron list that includes the Stormlord.

Wouldn't really say that GKs are weak against Daemons in any way. Quite the opposite, since they have anti-Daemon weaponry, most units have Preferred Enemy: Daemons... After the new 'dex came out, I wondered if there's actually some way to beat GKs with Daemons. Haven't read the Daemon codex though, so don't know if they have some trick that helps...

Also, it's worth noting that most new codexes containing units with Preferred Enemy have been written by Ward; Necrons, Grey Knights, Blood Angels... Powercreep created by a single writer? :eyebrows:

Freakiq
16-02-2012, 11:22
Also, it's worth noting that most new codexes containing units with Preferred Enemy have been written by Ward; Necrons, Grey Knights, Blood Angels... Powercreep created by a single writer? :eyebrows:

Hardly since both Space Wolves and Imperial guard are more powerful than all of those.

Except maybe Grey Knights.

Konovalev
16-02-2012, 15:20
If I remember correctly, Orks only get a better chance to start a match against a Necron list that includes the Stormlord.

Wouldn't really say that GKs are weak against Daemons in any way. Quite the opposite, since they have anti-Daemon weaponry, most units have Preferred Enemy: Daemons... After the new 'dex came out, I wondered if there's actually some way to beat GKs with Daemons. Haven't read the Daemon codex though, so don't know if they have some trick that helps...


Well since daemons all have invulnerable saves and eternal warrior the GK's universal force weapons do nothing for them against daemons. The force weapons go so far as to actually hurt GK because of this wargear some khorne aligned units can take called blessing of the blood god that gives any unit that has it a 2++ invulnerable vs psychic attacks, which includes any attack made with a forceweapon.

ReveredChaplainDrake
16-02-2012, 17:24
The name does suck to be honest, Hawthorne suggested hatred which would make more sense. That said I really like the ideal of "hated Foe" but I would probably tie a bit of an advantage to it, maybe +1 int in cc, but your save counts +1 higher if that raises your save over 6+ you don't get one.
How about Old Adversary? It's a term swiped right from the Tyranid codex, and GW likes taking mechanical names from other books and working them into USRs. Just ask the Eldar.

And for all the mentions of PE creep, Black Templars have yet to be mentioned? For shame. IIRC, they pretty much started the PE-creep with their one good vow.

khaosmarines
16-02-2012, 19:57
Well since daemons all have invulnerable saves and eternal warrior the GK's universal force weapons do nothing for them against daemons. The force weapons go so far as to actually hurt GK because of this wargear some khorne aligned units can take called blessing of the blood god that gives any unit that has it a 2++ invulnerable vs psychic attacks, which includes any attack made with a forceweapon.

grey Knight force weapons can instant kill daemons, regardless of eternal warrior.

TrueKin
16-02-2012, 20:01
Well since daemons all have invulnerable saves and eternal warrior the GK's universal force weapons do nothing for them against daemons. The force weapons go so far as to actually hurt GK because of this wargear some khorne aligned units can take called blessing of the blood god that gives any unit that has it a 2++ invulnerable vs psychic attacks, which includes any attack made with a forceweapon.

I don't think all Force weapon attacks count as Psychic, but require the Psychic test to become so and are otherwise regular power weapon attacks. Thus all the GKs would need to do to counter the blessing would be to not use the Psychic capability. The Eternal Warrior rule of Daemons makes the Daemonbane rule of Nemesis weapons kinda pointless, though.

wyvirn
16-02-2012, 23:07
They're still force weapons. And the Daemonbane removes the model, so it gets around EW. But that is neither here nor there.

lantzkev
17-02-2012, 06:39
Grey Knights force weapons are not pyschic attacks.
They universally seem to get preferred enemy:daemons (just about all)
Nemesis part of their force weapons are very potent against demons (unsaved wound, make leadership or... get removed not dead... hrm)
Warp Quake.
Aegis + reinforced Aegis.

The entire army is tailored to fight demons.



...The best example is Grey knights. They should get rules that target daemons (and naturally, daemons should get something back, to retain balance), it's what they do.
The biggest problem with the current Grey knight trainwreck book is that it doesn't target daemons, it gives big bonuses against everyone, or overly broad categories (i.e any unit that deep strikes)

Completely off the mark Bunn, it just happens that many of the things that they have that make them excellent against demons, happens to be pretty damn effective against other armies as well.

lantzkev
17-02-2012, 06:41
as to the initial post, there are plenty of cases of specific preferred enemy rules. usually either orks or tyrannids.

Konovalev
17-02-2012, 13:28
Grey Knights force weapons are not pyschic attacks.
They universally seem to get preferred enemy:daemons (just about all)
Nemesis part of their force weapons are very potent against demons (unsaved wound, make leadership or... get removed not dead... hrm)
Warp Quake.
Aegis + reinforced Aegis.

The entire army is tailored to fight demons.

pg 74 of the chaos daemons codex. Blessing works against force weapons.

Demonbane is not very useful against daemons (ALL of whom have Ld10 save a single character), it only works on models with 2+ wounds and even then there's only a 1/36 chance of removing the model outright. Those are not good odds.

The entire army is not tailored to fight demons. The army is tailored to butcher MEQ and supress psykers. And as Bunn says "it doesn't target daemons, it gives big bonuses against everyone, or overly broad categories (i.e any unit that deep strikes)"
I don't think ward even read the daemon codex before writing GK. Not that EW on models with a single wound isn't indicative of goofy codex writing either.

Ultimately I think preferred enemy would do better with a rewording, going either very general, or giving specific unit entires depending on the unit receiving it. IE: Preferred enemy daemons = preferred enemy against all units from codex chaos daemons. or for the inevitable C:SM update, Marneus Calgar gets preferred enemy Swarmlord/Avatar = preferred enemy against the avatar and the swarmloard but not hivetyrants because that's a seperate unit entry.

lantzkev
17-02-2012, 23:31
pg 74 of the chaos daemons codex. Blessing works against force weapons.

Demonbane is not very useful against daemons (ALL of whom have Ld10 save a single character), it only works on models with 2+ wounds and even then there's only a 1/36 chance of removing the model outright. Those are not good odds.

The entire army is not tailored to fight demons. The army is tailored to butcher MEQ and supress psykers. And as Bunn says "it doesn't target daemons, it gives big bonuses against everyone, or overly broad categories (i.e any unit that deep strikes)"
I don't think ward even read the daemon codex before writing GK. Not that EW on models with a single wound isn't indicative of goofy codex writing either.

Ultimately I think preferred enemy would do better with a rewording, going either very general, or giving specific unit entires depending on the unit receiving it. IE: Preferred enemy daemons = preferred enemy against all units from codex chaos daemons. or for the inevitable C:SM update, Marneus Calgar gets preferred enemy Swarmlord/Avatar = preferred enemy against the avatar and the swarmloard but not hivetyrants because that's a seperate unit entry.

worked pretty well last time I got the "your leadership is 2" result on psychotroke, took out a demon prince with only one unsaved wound done.
no other army other than daemons MUST deep strike. No other army needs to deepstrike within 12 to be effective. you saying this army isn't tailored to fight demons is baseless.

Demons must deep strike, demons cannot with warpquake within 12inches period.
Nemesis force weapons (regardless of your complaint about leadership is again tailored for demons)
Pysk-out grenades
Preferred enemy
Aegis-reinforced aegis (against the sorcers, most the demon stuff actually targets rather than say farseer fortune, and jaws of the wolf world etc)

True these things work well against other things as well, but that's not to take away from the fact that this army is given the best tools to fight demons. And is geared and tailored to fight them. I'm honestly suprised if demons can win against a halfway decent commander without tailoring their list to fight them, and even then it's a incredibly uphill battle.