PDA

View Full Version : vc 3000 points vs ogers



Caelith
15-02-2012, 06:14
please give advise this is my first game with the new vc army book



Master N 275
black periapt
+1 magic
master of dead

V Lord 436
Red fury
swoord of blood shed
enchanted shield
law of beasts
+2 magic
heavy armour

necro 80
channelling staff

Vamp 181
BSB
razor
shield
heavy armour



Skeletons 42 fc 240
spears
ghouls 40 Captain 410

Zombies 27 b,m 91

Zombies 20 b,m 70

Grave Guard 39 fc 548
gw, banner of the barrows

bat swarm 2 70

cart 1 90 121
loadstone, spear

mortis engine 240
unholy tome

crypt horror 6 captain 238

3000

the way i played in the last army book was to sit in a corner and grow my tare pits until my opponent got close, draw them into fighting them then try to hit with grave guard. I want to maintain a similar style but will it work with the new book and will this list do that.

i am hoping to use beasts to have S4 strike first horde zombies or skels, also if i luck out on spells have a red fury vamp with11 S8 attacks.
will this work?

Corvus Corone
15-02-2012, 08:52
I'm too new of a player at the moment to be able to critique your list that effectively, but I will warn you to beware of the Hellheart. This is more tactics and strategy for the list than list advice as such; often a cheap hero class character will take it and if he catches many of your four casters with it then things may be over before they really began, and it's range can be up to 30" (d6 x 5" radius if I remember right).

Alls I'm saying is, you'll most likely have a hellheart accross the table from you and with 4 casters, it's going to be even more dangerous than usual. Plan accordingly!

zielonkak
15-02-2012, 09:47
if your just using vamp hero for bsb, then i would just take a wight....cheaper and a little tougher if your not gearing up your vamp

TheLegend
15-02-2012, 14:16
Against ogres you will have one round to build before you're in combat, maybe two if you're lucky. So I wouldn't bank on huge tar pits by the time close combat begins. Do you know what units the ogres are brining? Are you making a skelly bus or horde? The bus would be better to reduce frontage and reduce the chance for duel charges.

Paladin21
15-02-2012, 14:42
Your list isn't actually legal. Your highest leadership character (the lord) has to be the general, and your general has to use lore of vamps. For strategy advice, make sure you raise a unit of zombies/skeletons in front of your GG block at an awkward angle for them to charge into. Preventing/minimizing impact hits is vital in the matchup if you want to win combat. Personally, I'd probably make some other changes such as dropping one of the zombie blocks for two wolf blocks (to each sabertusk chaff if present/redircts if not) and dropping the vampire bsb to a wight, dumping the bat swarms and freeing up a few more points (channeling staff?/CH sarge?) to get a terrorgheist in the list.

Hinaelark
15-02-2012, 20:46
With ogres, I would suggest bringing some ethereal to the fight. I don't know about your area, but where I live the ogre players like to field mournfang cav and their mobile cannon. Neither are able to deal with ethereal well and wraiths and hexwraiths have good movement to be able to chase them around and get charges lined up.

I would also suggest bringing the numbers for your ghouls down some. With the point cost changes I plan on trying to make my skeletons catch the charges with hand weapon and shield and then have the ghouls swing in on the flank to kill rank bonuses and drop poison attacks in. If you run the skeletons 5 wide 6 deep and drop down to 2x15 ghouls w/out captains I believe you'll be at the same points cost as you are now, only you've got four units instead of two and with more models, thus more wounds to kill.

I've never had good luck with zombies, so I don't take them. They strike last, have no saves, and can't protect characters from challenges with a captain. I would see those zombies turned into 16 more ghouls or 32 more skeletons instead.

I would definately agree that a wight king bsb is the better option over a vampire, they're cheaper and tougher and automatically come with killing blow.


I would also change up the lord a little bit. The heavy armor and enchant shield are good, I would drop the sword of bloodshed. I prefer the sword of anti-heroes myself. You're already str5 w/ 5 attacks, against RaF that's going to let you do some damage, but if you get drawn into a challenge or even if you're just next to a character in the opposing unit, you're getting higher strength and more attacks to offset their higher armors and toughness. I also like to throw on quickblood if I've got the points, because most things won't get up to init 7 w/out magic thus giving you free rerolls to hit. I would also drop at least one of the extra magic levels from the vampire lord, I try not to have my lord casting with too many dice to make sure he doesn't die from miscasting.

Morax
16-02-2012, 14:36
As to illegal, legal question of the general, it's a toss up. Do the rules in the VC book replace the BSB for choosing a general or do they coincide with them. I think every VC player would prefer the first but may wind up getting stuck with the second. From a fluff stand point I doubt a Vampire count would bow to a necromancer but that's just me.

As to the matchup, I'm not sold on corpse carts and swarms but thats just me. I'd go with some wolves to take on sabretusks and spirit hosts to tie up anything he takes without ranks. Nothing ruins the day of Mournfang cavalry like a spirit host in the front, just sayin.

Hinaelark
16-02-2012, 20:27
I don't know why this didn't post yesterday but let's try it again.

Changes I would do:

I would drop the black periapt from your master necro, 55 pts to save two dice from a previous phase doesn't seem worth it to me, just too expensive

the lord I would do a little bit differently, and I am of the opinion that the vlord would need to be the general as well. I would drop a level of magic from him, keep red fury, add quick blood, and drop the sword of bloodshed for the sword of anti-heroes. This gives him asf at init 7 (getting rerolls on most opponents) and if he gets dragged into a challenge or b2b with a character, 6 str6 attacks with extra attacks for each that wounds. This gives you back 35 pts.

The necro is ok. I don't normally use the channelling staff but i guess it could come in handy.

I would change the bsb to a wight king instead of vamp. It saves you some points and makes him tougher to kill, along with granting killing blow.

For your cores I would do the following:
drop the zombies completely (+161 pts)
drop your first unit of skeletons down to 30 and equip them with hw/shield w/ full command (+60 pts)
make a 2nd unit of skeletons @30 w/ hw/shield and full command (-180 pts )

field the skeletons as 5 wide 6 deep, this way you can hopefully keep some ranks after being charged, you should be planning on getting charged 2nd turn.

Split your ghouls into two units, no captains. This, combined with the other changes, will give you enough for a unit of 23 and a unit of 22. Use the ghouls as flanking units for your skeletons, this way you can catch the charge with one unit and then hit the side with the other.

Grave Guard look fine, I would imagine you plan to deploy them as a horde and they should hold up pretty well.

I haven't used bat swarms yet, but now that they drop asl on whatever they're in base with, it could certainly make things interesting

Cart is a good choice now that it just has to be within AOE of IoN to burst asf

Mortis engine I haven't played yet but things that give your units regen while putting hits on enemy units is normally good

crypt horrors i'm not certain about, you might want to turn these points into something ethereal to try and take care of mournfangs or their cannon that runs around on the field, or even vargheists as they could fly back behind the lines to try and snag a flank charge or the cannon.

AM1640
16-02-2012, 22:14
Hi I would agree that you need to protect against the Hellheart, take an item that protects against a miscast.
I would also change the BSB vamp to a Wightking- he is more durable and with 3 other casters there will be little to no dice left for him to cast with. Why the razor banner? Ogres don't tend to have alot of armour, if in the GG unit they all ready have strength 6 and a -3 armour mod, go with magic items on the BSB to keep him alive.
I would change the bat swarm to a spirit host or multiple hosts.
I hope you aren't planning on having 11 attacks. You can only increase to Max 10 attacks from all sources, this means you can get 10 swings, hopefully do 8 wounds and then get 8 more attacks.

Caelith
17-02-2012, 00:24
what does the hellheart do
currently re doing list will post soon (might try a legal general this time-just an idea i had:p)

here is a new list

V Lord 341
Red fury
swoord of blood shed
enchanted shield
heavy armour

Master N 275
black periapt
+1 magic
master of dead

necro 80
channelling staff

king 159
BSB
razor
shield


Skeletons 43 fc 245
spears
ghouls 39 Captain 400

Zombies 31 b,m 103

Zombies 20 b,m 70

Grave Guard 39 fc 548
gw, banner of the barrows

spirit host 2 90
spirit host 2 90

cart 121
loadstone, spear

mortis engine 240
unholy tome

crypt horror 6 captain 238

added the spirit host to tie up a each unit, even if beaten by 2 combat res per turn (eg 1 rank, banner) they will hopefully be in range of IoN
razor is on bsb who will be in ghouls, taking out some armor save, should work well with poison vbs low armor
my main hammer will obviously be the GG with lord. ill try to use my zombie ogers (crypt horrors) to flank charge
im not to worried about misscast as ill not throw more than 2 dice at a spell very often

i am wondering if i drop the cart, some core models & 1 unit of spirit host to allow a terrorgiest
what do people think?
thanks:skull:

Hinaelark
17-02-2012, 13:45
I would keep the corpse cart. ASF is very nice and it will help counter if he takes the walking catapault that gives asl.

Paladin21
17-02-2012, 14:05
I like this list better than the first one. The only thing that I'd strongly suggest is that you change the gearing around on your lord. Ogres are strong enough that gearing for an armor save isn't very productive. You're going to need a ward save, preferably a good one, to make it through. I'd suggest something more like Armor of Destiny and then whatever weapon you want on top of that (Ogre Blade/Sword of Strife depending on if you'd rather rely on Van Hel's or Hellish Vigor to buff your damage output; I'd take Ogre's Blade, as it makes him fit in better with the GG, who benefit more from the Danse). Alternately, you can make a "shiny" vampire and take Glittering Scales+Fencer's Blades to make him really, really hard to hit, but you'll have to settle for a 5+ ward.

Other than that, most other things I see are more a matter of taste than effectiveness. I don't like the new Periapt at the new cost, though against Ogres it might be better (I've been playing vs. Lizardmen a lot lately, there's never enough dispel dice, let alone extras). As they don't have a "spell 6 of doom" that you'll absolutely have to try to dispel, you have more flexibility to limit your dispels to power up your offense the next turn. I'd personally also drop the Chanelling Staff in favor of a Dispel Scroll, but that is again a matter of taste. I almost never get my channel rolls anyway, and I greatly value having a guaranteed dispel (for non-IF, of course). The scroll also plays into having a Periapt if you want to keep it, as you can scroll a spell to save dice in anticipation of your next casting phase.

Oh, and on the cart. I'd definitely keep it, especially against ogres. Grave Guard are Initiative 3, almost all Ogres are Initiative 2 (or less). If you get the ASF off on your block of Guard, they'll strike in initiative order, before the ogres. With ~30ish Strength 6 swings plus your lord (hopefully with either re-rolls to hit, to wound, or both), you have an excellent chance of taking a large chunk out of their return attacks. For your core issue, normally I'd say try to stick your core at 25% on the dot. Against ogres, however, having larger blocks of core is extremely useful, as your units have to be big enough to catch a bull's charge and not crumble into non-existence. If you can catch the charge and hold, even for a turn, ogres are in trouble. Stop their momentum and you're well on your way to victory.

Mid'ean
17-02-2012, 14:32
what does the hellheart do

The Hellheart is activated on your turn after you roll your WoM. Any wizard caught in the D6x5" radius from the activator has to roll on the miscast table. So if he rolls decent and you have your wizards close he will effectively shut down that phase and cause all kinds of nasty thing to happen to your wizards.....:evilgrin:

Caelith
17-02-2012, 20:04
i was thinking the same with periapt so ill try to drop that
ill also re-gig the lord, probably go shiny
i think ill use any left over points to get my bats back (i like the idea of him having asl for a combat) or load up my units more to survive that first turn of combat
Thoughts?
as to hell heart oh S*** i keep my wizards close together ill have to think this one through

thanks:skull: