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Eddie Chaos
17-02-2012, 19:47
Hey guys, so here's the deal. I'm seriously considering starting a Legion of the damned army.

What I need from you (beloved inhabitant of the internet) are suggestions for how best to approach this idea.


What list should I use? My initial thoughts were Vanilla or Blood Angels.
What units should not be included / what units are auto-include?
Other thoughts

I know there is a unit entry for them but that doesn't really help me build a full army

I will be converting plastic minis mostly as I'm not willing to pay 5 per marine

Lord Damocles
17-02-2012, 19:51
...why Blood Angels?


You probably best off just using standard Marines as Legionnaires (it was good enough for them in 3rd ed.). Do lots of deep striking.

Eddie Chaos
17-02-2012, 19:56
I thought blood angels simply because of the mass deep striking, I was thinking along the lines of them appearing as if from nowhere, I'm perfectly willing to be wrong.

Korraz
17-02-2012, 20:02
Try to dig out the Cursed Founding rules, and slap them on the Vanilla Marines rules. Should be fine.

Bunnahabhain
17-02-2012, 20:12
I'd actually say the Grey Knight rules are best here, with one small proviso....

Nothing that isn't a grey knight. So no henchmen, inquisitors, dreadnoughts, dreadknights, vehicles or assassins.

The whole point is a mass of power armoured and Terminator armoured marines appearing via deep strike, unleash hell at short range, then disappear again.
Psybolts fit, psycannons and incinerators fit, psychic powers fit- it works.

Given you won't be spamming psyriflemen or purifiers, it's not even cheesy.

Eddie Chaos
17-02-2012, 22:31
I hadn't considered Grey knights but that sounds like a pretty good plan.

Does anyone object or have an alternative idea?

xxRavenxx
17-02-2012, 22:39
GK don't really suit as they are psychic powerweapon users, which LotD don't mesh with.

I think your blood angels idea wasn't terrible.

In honesty, I'd use the chaos book, and grab 1k sons. You'll get lumped with the odd psyker squad leader, which isn't terribly fluffy, but the 3++ save basic troops represent well.

Bunnahabhain
17-02-2012, 23:03
Given the warp influence on Legion of the damned, I though that psychic powers would be very fitting, myself. After all, they are Marines+1, which is what the grey knight book does, especially if you choose the correct ones- Supernatural strength? That sounds like hammerhand and might of titans to me....

Or has their background has been totally Warded up, so all of that is totally wrong? If so, I deny the existence of the newer fluff.

EDIT:I'm not saying CSM or BA are bad choices either. They're all variant marine books, so will all fit a variant marine force to some degree...

FashaTheDog
17-02-2012, 23:28
Why not Dreadnoughts or vehicle? They had them in their WD224 list.

As a quick run down, that list was 1 Legion of the Damned Commander, 0-1 Company Icon (-1 Ld to enemies w/i 12"), 0-1 Chaplain, 0-1 Librarian, Techmarines, Assault Swuads, Tactical Squads, Devastator Squads, Bike Squadrons, Dreadnoughts, Rhinos, Land Speeders (multi-melta and flamer only), Attack Bikes (only could take multi-meltas), and Sergeant Centurius. They also had a few wargear specific rules such as Mk. 1 plasma, which could be best represented by not taking plasma cannons except on "Dreadnoughts, vehicles, and fixed defenses." According to their wargear list, they had access to power weapons, power fists, hand flamers, plasma pistols, flamers, meltaguns, autocannons, heavy bolters, lascannons, and missile launchers for infantry upgrades, while Dreadnoughts had to take two of the following take twin-linked heavy bolters, twin-linked lascannons, heavy plasma gun (use the plasma cannon), missile launcher, multi-meltas, assault cannons, heavy flamer w/ built in storm bolter, and power fist w/ built in stormbolter. The assault cannon and multi-melta is noted as being a rarity on Legion of the Damned Dreadnoughts. Sergeant Centurius was a free sergeant upgrade who had the Animus Malorum, which was a piece of wargear that rolled between 1-3 D6s equal to the number of force cards used to power it (simply, force cards were used in the psychic phase to power psychic powers). If the result of the roll exceed the target model's LD, the model was killed regardless of wounds or armor and a dead Legionnaire was resurrected. This could be nullified like any other psychic power. Additionally the entire list, apart from bikes and vehicles, could teleport into battle on turn 1 and could choose to leave the game by teleportation, although leaving was an all or nothing deal.

Bunnahabhain
17-02-2012, 23:49
Did they? I'd totally forgotten about that. I could have sworn they have no vehicles at all. Could just be the only person I knew with them back then never used any...

jasdc1
18-02-2012, 00:39
I remember the old UK GW site had conversion kits to make Damned Speeders and Bikes. The speeder looked awesome. Wish I had saved a pic of it.

Korraz
18-02-2012, 11:28
Did they? I'd totally forgotten about that. I could have sworn they have no vehicles at all. Could just be the only person I knew with them back then never used any...

In the Cursed Founding one they had Dreads and Rhinos, I think, but nothing else.

Bunnahabhain
18-02-2012, 12:07
Ok, so what should be in legion list, and what shouldn't? Agreeing on this will make picking the best codex easier!

FashaTheDog
18-02-2012, 13:13
White Dwarf 224
1 Legion of the Damned Commander
Company Icon
Chaplain
Librarian
Techmarines
Assault Squads
Tactical Squads
Devastator Squads
Bike Squadrons
Dreadnoughts
Rhinos
Land Speeders
Attack Bikes
Sergeant Centurius

Chapter Approved 2004 Cursed Founding List
Hero
Command Squad
Chaplain
Librarian
Dreadnought
Terminator Squads
Terminator Assault Squads
Tactical Squads
Assault Squads
Bike Squadrons
Devastator Squads
Land Raiders
Predator Annihilators and Destructors
Vindicators
Whirlwinds
Rhinos
Plus the two units, Cursed Knights and Abominations, that all Cursed Founding Chapters had.

In the Cursed Founding list, Legion of the Damned paid +5 points per model and +10 per Dreadnought/vehicle but gained army wide 6+ invulnerable and the ability to deep strike everything, including vehicles.

I would almost want to lean to either a heavily Tzeentch marked Chaos Marine list for the invulnerable saves and Daemonic Possession for vehicles to represent the ethereal nature of them or stick with the standard Marine Codex and say that the army mysteriously appeared in during deployment and use the Legion of the Damned squads from that book as an elite reserve unit.

Calistro1
19-02-2012, 23:59
What about using codex space marines with the apocalypse data sheet rules on the games-workshop website? They've limited the selection to-

Commander
Command Squad
Terminators
Dreadnought
Tactical Squads

My other suggestion is what FlashaTheDog suggested Tzeentch themed Chaos Space Marines or Space Marines and using Legionnaire Squads as the Elites

Treadhead_1st
20-02-2012, 11:43
I suppose it depends on how much you want to use "modern" equipment like Land Speeders, Storm Bolters and Assault Cannon - in which case I suppose Blood Angels might fit (what with Feel No Pain), though much of their gear doesn't seem too appropriate. There was a LotD Special Character Sergeant a long time ago with a special "skull-chalice", so that would give you some converting opportunities re: Sanguinary Priests.

A long time ago I saw an absolutely awesome Legion of the Damned army. It was used game-wise as a Nurgle Chaos Space Marine army. I cannot remember whether they were Plague Marines or just marked Chaos Space Marines, but it does show the improved resilience of the Legionnaires quite nicely, backed up with Vindicators and Dreadnoughts.

AndrewGPaul
20-02-2012, 13:51
There's absolutely no reason why the Legion wouldn't have up-to-date equipment. The Fire Hawks only disappeared in 960.M41 or thereabouts. They were on the winning side of the Badab War, so they would have been better equipped than the Lamenters or Mantis Warriors. The only way they'd be lacking in equipment is through losses related to their mishap.

The original Legion article in WD 99 stated the following;


The marines elected to remove all insignia from their armour. Instead their armour would be black, decorated by each brother with whatever emblems of death he chose (the accompanying illustrations show some typical variations). Most brothers employed a similar theme - skeletons, bones and skulls.

All ranks and companies were abolished, most of the chapter's officers were already dead and the remaining warriors were too few to make up a fully functioning chapter hierarchy. All brothers were to be equal before death - levelled by the certainty of their assured extinction. The warriors decided to expend their lives attacking enemies wherever they could be found. The disease had robbed them of their sanity, but not their loyalty! And their condition gave them powers - powers that endow them with incredible fighting abilities.

Since then, they've miraculously regained a measure of organisation and heirarchy, starting with Sergeant Centurius in WD 195.

There was also rules for 3rd edition; the basic Legionary squad in WD 228 and additional rules for Commanders and command squads and Dreadnoughts in WD 236.

FashaTheDog
20-02-2012, 17:30
I suppose it depends on how much you want to use "modern" equipment like Land Speeders, Storm Bolters and Assault Cannon - in which case I suppose Blood Angels might fit (what with Feel No Pain), though much of their gear doesn't seem too appropriate.

In both army lists I posted (one from '98, the other from '04) they had Landspeeders and the Dreadnoughts could have Stormbolters and assault cannons. In the '04 Chapter Approved, assault cannons and stormbolters became far more common. Looking to the Datasheet for Apocalypse, you also have pretty much the same limit on either of those two weapons, although Landspeeders are absent from that formation. The easiest solution I would imagine would be to simply stick to the three GW sources for allowable units, if it is not on one of those lists, the Legion lacks it.


There was a LotD Special Character Sergeant a long time ago with a special "skull-chalice", so that would give you some converting opportunities re: Sanguinary Priests.

You're thinking of Sergeant Centurius and the Animus Malorum, which did not just resurrect fallen Legionnaires, but did so by sucking the souls out of their enemies. And also, I refuse to recognize your definition of "a long time ago," I don't want to feel older than I have to. :cries:

As to the using Feel No Pain instead of an invulnerable save, that does have potential as they would see fewer losses from "regular" weapons but would mean that AP1-3 and/or S8+ would be unaffected by their ghostly resilience so it is something of a tradeoff. T5 from Plaguemarines helps against weapons like disintegrators and the majority of rending and power weapon attacks since it will make them tougher to wound, but against the big guns, again, not so much. I think the best, if least universally accepted, route would be to write a Codex Legion of the Damned, basing all units off the Codex Space Marine Legion of the Damned with the options of available to the unit in question (i.e. Assault Squads would use the base Legion of the Damned squad rules, but with Assault Squad options (at Legion equivalent prices) and say an additional 6-10 points (Assault Marines are 20% more than Tactical per model, but the special rules might warrant further increase) per model for the jump packs with only a Rhino transport option) while giving vehicles and Dreadnoughts an increase in points and an invulnerable save, perhaps 10-15 points increase for a 5+ or something similar. If you have a regular group, run it up the flag pole and see who salutes, you might find that they like the idea; it worked for me with Fandex Angry Marines.

Treadhead_1st
20-02-2012, 17:59
There's absolutely no reason why the Legion wouldn't have up-to-date equipment. The Fire Hawks only disappeared in 960.M41 or thereabouts. They were on the winning side of the Badab War, so they would have been better equipped than the Lamenters or Mantis Warriors. The only way they'd be lacking in equipment is through losses related to their mishap.

The original Legion article in WD 99 stated the following;
...
Since then, they've miraculously regained a measure of organisation and heirarchy, starting with Sergeant Centurius in WD 195.

There was also rules for 3rd edition; the basic Legionary squad in WD 228 and additional rules for Commanders and command squads and Dreadnoughts in WD 236.

Hm, I thought the Cursed Founding was a lot longer ago than 39 years in the 40K timeline. Sometime in M36 if memory serves, and that none of those Chapters lasted that long (particularly the Fire Hawks, thanks to their mutation causing them to burst into flames, rapidly brought them to the attention of the Inquisition and were purged). According to Lexicanum they were only declared "lost" in 983.M41, so I figure there's some recent retcon I have missed in those Forge World books?

Hence my comment on lacking modern equipment - it was from the M36 basis.

With my Blood Angels comment, I did not mean in terms of equipment, but rather units such as Sanguinary Guard, Death Company, the various Dreadnoughts, Storm Raven, Baal Predators, Assault Marine core, et cetera. Whilst you could certainly avoid those units, they are the strength of the book. The Sanguinary Priests and Descent of Angels does help represent the Legion's deployment/toughness background however.


In both army lists I posted (one from '98, the other from '04) they had Landspeeders and the Dreadnoughts could have Stormbolters and assault cannons. In the '04 Chapter Approved, assault cannons and stormbolters became far more common. Looking to the Datasheet for Apocalypse, you also have pretty much the same limit on either of those two weapons, although Landspeeders are absent from that formation. The easiest solution I would imagine would be to simply stick to the three GW sources for allowable units, if it is not on one of those lists, the Legion lacks it.

Fair enough - the one trouble with using the standard Marine codex is that you cannot represent the resilience/ethereal nature that well.


You're thinking of Sergeant Centurius and the Animus Malorum, which did not just resurrect fallen Legionnaires, but did so by sucking the souls out of their enemies. And also, I refuse to recognize your definition of "a long time ago," I don't want to feel older than I have to. :cries:

Aye, that's the fella. Ah, I remember the White Dwarf where he was released. Whilst the Blood Chalice does not harm the enemy, it still serves as a similar rules-base and offers conversion opportunities. I didn't mean to make you feel old buddy - I still think of myself as a relative "newcomer" to the game, and I first started with the release of 3rd Edition :eek:.


As to the using Feel No Pain instead of an invulnerable save, that does have potential as they would see fewer losses from "regular" weapons but would mean that AP1-3 and/or S8+ would be unaffected by their ghostly resilience so it is something of a tradeoff.

Indeed, it is not ideal - and as I mention above, Descent of Angels helps with the famous deployment of the Legion too, but again it is a bit of a shoe-horn.


T5 from Plaguemarines helps against weapons like disintegrators and the majority of rending and power weapon attacks since it will make them tougher to wound, but against the big guns, again, not so much.

Was just suggesting something I had seen done before, that hadn't come up yet. Like Feel no Pain it is not an ideal solution, but it is there.


I think the best, if least universally accepted, route would be to write a Codex Legion of the Damned, basing all units off the Codex Space Marine Legion of the Damned with the options of available to the unit in question (i.e. Assault Squads would use the base Legion of the Damned squad rules, but with Assault Squad options (at Legion equivalent prices) and say an additional 6-10 points (Assault Marines are 20% more than Tactical per model, but the special rules might warrant further increase) per model for the jump packs with only a Rhino transport option) while giving vehicles and Dreadnoughts an increase in points and an invulnerable save, perhaps 10-15 points increase for a 5+ or something similar. If you have a regular group, run it up the flag pole and see who salutes, you might find that they like the idea; it worked for me with Fandex Angry Marines.

Perhaps that is the best route ultimately (though I would say it runs into problems with the Legion being over-costed [at the very least their equipment options even if not the squad itself]). Also, the suggestions of Blood Angels and Nurgle do run into some issues with the fact that the Fire Hawks/Legion were not the toughest Marines of the Cursed Founding - that went to the...uh...Sons of Antaeus if memory serves me correctly.

AndrewGPaul
21-02-2012, 00:34
The Fire Hawks were created during the Cursed Founding, but lasted long enough to take part in the Badab War - including the final assault on the Badab system itself, IIRC (at which point, they're best represented with Codex: Space Marines) The Legion of the Damned don't really have much to do with the other Cursed Founding chapters, rules wise. The chapter which burst into flames was the Flame Falcons.

As to the date of the loss of the Fire Hawks, they failed to complete a scheduled jump in 963, and were officially declared lost twenty years later.

Deathklaat
21-02-2012, 11:44
i too have a Legion of the Damned army that has been in the works for a while. i also was having trouble figuring out which Codex best fit them. I originally tried the current C:SM and made a Vulkan melta heavy drop pod list. I am not completely satisfied with it so i looked through the BA codex and i thought their rapid deployment was more akin to the LotD. the CSM codex doesnt really fit with LotD, maybe if it gets a decent update.

Charistoph
21-02-2012, 16:27
Sadly, I can't see any codex that can do it adequately, unless you can field Marines in PA, Storm Shields, Deep Strike, and Slow and Purposeful.

Sounds like a Home Grown Codex to me.

FashaTheDog
21-02-2012, 17:42
I've always found that with any homebrew codex, the best route is to over cost units so as to avoid the problem of a particularly nasty combo of rules being too good and burning your test subjects. After getting in a number of games and seeing the same units under-perform for the price, then look at a cautious decrease. Often times, working with point tweaks to one or two units at a time tends to make the process a little more manageable if you're way off to left field with new units, but in this case, as most units will be hybrids of two existing units, more comprehensive adjustments can be made to expedite the play testing. My main concern about the cost is that the army will be much harder than its individual parts since the increased resilience is army wide which will mean that many weapons that normally would be diverted from a Legion of the Damned squad in favor of "softer" normal Marines will have no choice but be used far less efficiently.

A good example of where I'm coming from is the Carnifex. One is quite clearly overpriced, however, a half dozen of them are priced about right. The reason is that one or two T6 W4 monsters are manageable for your standard take-all-comers list as there is a good ratio of "Fex hunting" weapons to Fexes, but as the number of Carnifex increases, that ratio turns to favor the Fexes since there will be fewer high S, low AP weapons per Fex. As such pricing needs to reflect that.

Xandros
21-02-2012, 17:58
I on the other hand have the distinct impression that people don't care what things cost. That's not something my opponents concern themselves with, nor do I care to check point costs on their lists.

The only thing that matters is how much is on the table, and a hundred points more or less isn't going to matter impressively.

Xandros
21-02-2012, 17:59
I on the other hand have the distinct impression that people don't care what things cost. That's not something my opponents concern themselves with, nor do I care to check point costs on their lists.

The only thing that matters is how much is on the table, and a hundred points more or less isn't going to matter impressively.

Starchild
24-02-2012, 23:56
I always thought the Space Wolves 13th company list from the Eye of Terror codex was best for representing a LotD army. Each model has SM veteran stats and their psyker basically gets a Necron veil of darkness for teleportation (I was going to use Centurius for this). Also the lack of heavy vehicles fits the theme of being a mostly infantry-based chapter remnant. There were some other features that made a good match but I can't recall unless I dig that old codex out of storage.

EDIT: I remember now! The WD 99 LotD list has a rule for legionnaires who succumb to warp frenzy. Models afflicted turn into frothic lunatics who are deadly in assault. The Wulfen unit would be a good candidate to represent a warp frenzied squad.

WarHammerman
25-02-2012, 03:02
What my friend did, was use the Blue Book for rules.

Scouts to Outflank
Veterans to Heroic Intervention
Assault Marines, etc.
an actual squad of Legion
and a Dreadnaught cause... yeah =D

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Fear is the mind killer
25-02-2012, 09:02
Personally I would go for a homemade codex, and have had a go at making one here (slightly shameful plug): http://40kdirectorscut.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/codex-legion-of-the-damned/ . However I haven't had a chance to play it myself, so would appreciate some feedback on it if someone did.

If I absolutely had to use an official dex, such as in a tournie situation, I would reluctantly go for CSM, use just vehicles (but not the defiler) with Thousand Sons as Troops and a Lord or Sorcerer for my leader.

Although none of the official dexes properly represent the lotd, there is quite a bit of flexibility as GW kept changing how they work, from a deepstriking rapid assault force with high WS (White Dwarf) to FNP marines (Apoc Datasheet) to a slow resilient army (codex Marines), so as long as you think that the army feels right then that's all you need really.