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View Full Version : new to fantasy, advice needed. ( dark elves )



hazmiter
18-02-2012, 11:22
Ok I've started to play fantasy, and as a new player, I'm on a magic trip.
First, what is a good combo for a supreme sorceress.
Second, should I take supreme at lv 4 or 3.
3rd, 2 normal sorceresses, or the supreme.
4th, what is a good combat lord? I need 2 for cc, one w cold ones, other with corsairs.

Any and all advice welcome.
3k list.

doubleskulls
18-02-2012, 11:50
Teclis, or a HE Archmage with Book of Hoeth are good answers. Slann are pretty handy too.

hazmiter
18-02-2012, 11:55
:p dark elves LOL.
Have a game on Monday afternoon against a pro who is teaching me, I have access to his de army, and can field what I want. But I have to write the list. Very annoying with out the fantasy rule book.

Capt._Jaelinek
18-02-2012, 13:23
Check the DE Tactica post. It's got a lot of great information.

As for you 3k list, is this a friendly game or are you trying to punish him from the start?

A Cauldron of Blood BSB is very good. I like repeater crossbowmen in units of 14 or so. A Lvl 4 supreme with sacrificial dagger, Lifetaker (crossbow) with Shadow magic in a unit of spearmen or crossbowmen is good. The n a lvl 2 with Dark, Fire or Metal is a good support Mage. Many people take a dispel scroll and tome of furion. If you are short points a lvl 1 is ok too. Any more mages and you won't have enough power dice to cast all their spells.

Some call it broken, and it is, but a Lord on Pegasus with Pendant of Kaelith, crown of command, dragon helm full armor and weapon of choice is extremely difficult to kill and can tar pit large units.

Specials and rares are by choice, but shades are pretty darn good. Witches and corsairs are popular Mind Razor recipients.

hazmiter
18-02-2012, 13:46
Current army.
Lords.
Dread lord. Cold one, shield of ghrond, ring of darkness, hydra blade, heavy armour, sea dragon cloak. 282 pts.

Heroes.
Sorceress, lv2, tome furion, power stone, lore shadow. 170pts.
Sorceress, lv2, sacri dagger, lore of death. 160 pts.
Sorceress lv2, darkstar cloak, lore of fire. 160 pts.
Master, dark steed, heavy armour, seadragon cloak, crimson death. 125pts.
Master, heavy armour, dragon scale cloak, ex hand weapon. 92 pts.

Core.
9 dark riders, full command. 188 pts.
11 rep crossbows. 110pts. Hosts sorceress of shadow.
12 rep crossbows. 120pts. Hosts sorceress of fire.
30 warriors, full command, shields. 225 pts. Has sor death.
30 corsairs, full command, sea serpant banner. 350 pts.
40 warriors, full command, shields, banner murder. 320 pts.

Special.
14 cold one knights, full command, banner hag graef, rink of hotek. 397pts.

Rare.
3 reaper bolt throwers.

Master on dark steed in dark riders.
Master on foot with corsairs.
Dread on cold one with knight's.

What's the thoughts.

hazmiter
18-02-2012, 18:48
How much is the dreadsus lord....... Sounds like an interesting one.

I re wrote the list as it lacked wounds, numbers and flexibility.
High elves are my opponent so I went 4 reaper b throwers, 2 hydra, 2 50 block warriors full cmmd, shields, one banner murder, 2 blocks 15 corsairs full cmmd and hand bows, 2 blocks 18 repeater c bows, 2 lv2 sorceress one w tome furion, 2 masters w blood armour, shield, seadragon, magic beast whip.. shield ghrond, sword might, h armour, sea dragon. ( one of each type per one )
Dread lord w crimson blade, armour of darkness, tali of preservation.
65 pts spare....

Asuryan's Spear
18-02-2012, 19:26
against high elves i'd run Black Guard as their I6 will stop him re-rolling to hit against you in cc.

Capt._Jaelinek
19-02-2012, 12:41
In my few games against high elves my magic phase was nearly shut down. They can take some ridiculous magic defense items. Looking at your list (which you might want to post in the army list forum) there are a few questions I see.

1. You are aware of the army building limits, right? 25% max on Lords, 25% max on Heroes, 25% min on core. It seems you have a lot of hero level characters.
2. As you are a new player, look very closely at the Dread Lord build I posted previously. You can mount him on a Cold One if you like, but he works great independently. He's about the same points as your build, but way more durable. The Pendant is a ward save equal to the strength of the attack, armor save is 1+ and he has a 2+ wards save vs. fire, which includes lore of metal. The crown of command makes him stubborn so he always rolls vs his Ld 10.
3. Each turn you typically get 7 power dice, power of darkness may get you another 1-2 per Mage. Each Mage will have 2-3 spells. Each spell will need at least 2-3 dice to cast. With 3 mages you need 12-18 dice to cast all those spells. I just don't see how that will work in your list.
4. Most DE players take harpies and shades. They have reasons for that.
5. Take a BSB, you don't have too, but they can be helpful.
6. Don't put a master with the dark riders. They lose fast cav and that is why they are good.
7. Consider Lifetaker on one of the mages, it's great against characters outside of a bunker unit. One high elf player had his two mages running around, thinking he was safe from my xbows and I nearly killed his lvl 4 Mage in the first turn (poor dice rolls!). It completely changed his strategy.

hazmiter
19-02-2012, 23:18
I've dropped the list for a foot list atm, as I need to learn movement.

hazmiter
20-02-2012, 22:23
Won my second game of fantasy, with foot dark elves! 4 reapers and 2 hydras saved my butt, stupid dragon knights........ At least the hydra had a full belly. The dreadlord ran, so he got his writ poured down his throat.

Capt._Jaelinek
21-02-2012, 03:09
Won my second game of fantasy, with foot dark elves! 4 reapers and 2 hydras saved my butt, stupid dragon knights........ At least the hydra had a full belly. The dreadlord ran, so he got his writ poured down his throat.

Which dreadlord build did you use? Did you have a BSB nearby? It's not likely, but it can happen, especially without the crown of command.

hazmiter
21-02-2012, 03:57
Dreadlord had crimson death, blood armour, pendant khaleth.
Did have bsb, no crown.
Hydras wiped dragon helms, reaper bolts killed spears as knights kept saving.....

hazmiter
21-02-2012, 22:50
3rd game w de, mauled the high elves, ring of hotek is good, cold ones in block of 20 not so good.... They died 4th turn and never got a charge off.
So question of the day.....
Dark riders w repeaters.... Good or bad, need to know.
Cold ones have failed me twice, but high elf shooting after failing on triple 4 to dispel arrow attraction.......
Did have his mages die 3rd turn from ring though...

Capt._Jaelinek
22-02-2012, 11:20
Dark Riders with xbows are good, but expensive. Try them out.

hazmiter
22-02-2012, 11:40
I am running 10 dark riders w xbows.
Also running 2 big blocks of corsairs. I'll write the list up in the army section tomorrow.
Not bothering w supreme sorceress this time round, 1 shooty master, shooty bsb, and shooty master ought to do damage.

tmarichards
22-02-2012, 13:21
Dark Riders don't really do anything that you can't do cheaper with harpies or better with shades. They're also very fragile for such an expensive unit.

hazmiter
23-02-2012, 01:55
So what can shades do and what can dark riders do.
I know riders get vanguard move, and can march and shoot.

tmarichards
23-02-2012, 07:55
Dark Riders are very fast with the Vanguard and 18" move.

However, shades are also fairly fast- because they're skirmishers they can march and shoot. They can also Scout so they can get often get into better positions on the board.

Because a Dark Rider is more costly than a shade, you'll end up with more shades in the unit- and shades are better at shooting, with BS5.

hazmiter
23-02-2012, 09:49
Hmmm...
So foot de again.
Guess shades will do the job, need to kill his archers and warmachines early.

Darkminion
23-02-2012, 14:00
Against High elves, take Morathi, give her the sacrificial dagger en the Black Dragon Egg and put her in a unit of 30 xbowmen. Dark Magic works very well against High Elves and she knows all of them. She has +5 to cast cast so can almost 1 dice all of the spells. If you are unfortunate to roll a 1 or 2, simply sacrifice a crossbowman and continue.

Morathi Rocks!!!

D...

Capt._Jaelinek
23-02-2012, 22:00
Morathi cannot take the sacrificial dagger or the Black Dragon Egg. She is a special character with limited equipment options.

Dark Riders are certianly more expensive than shades. I think of shades as behind the lines shooters (and if equipped with additional hand weapons) that can attack war machine crews or attack very small remnant units. Dark Riders, being core, help fill that requirement quickly, and are more mobile. They can get to war machines relatively quickly and are harrassing units. Shades are not as good harrassing since they can't move as far. With S4 on the charge they can be a good supporting unit in rear or flank charges. With the horses they get more attacks than a spearman too.

I would take shades first, but dark riders can be a good addition if you need mobility. In the games I've used them people get very distracted with them running all over the board. They only need a musician to help with rallying. Without crossbows they are useless in my opinion.

hazmiter
23-02-2012, 22:21
Cool cool.
What's your thoughts on me taking a sorcerer of tzeentch to try and get gateway as an ally.

Darkminion
24-02-2012, 10:14
Morathi cannot take the sacrificial dagger or the Black Dragon Egg. She is a special character with limited equipment options.

Morathi is a special character with the ability to choose an Arcane item and an Enchanted item of any point cost. so yes, she can take these items and since in 8th edition she is also allowed to join units, the sacrificial dagger is very, very, very lethal in her hands!

D...

hazmiter
24-02-2012, 11:07
List has been trimmed.
Now it is.
Core.
30 corsairs, full cmnd, sea standard.
20 warriors full cmnd, shields.
20 warriors, full cmnd, shields.
Supreme sorceress, lv4, dagger, pearl bleak.
5 dark riders.
20 repeater crossbow, standard, musician, shields.
Sorceress, lv2, tome furion.

Special.
10 dark riders, full command, ring hotek, hag graef banner.
15 black guard, kouran, standard, musician, banner murder.
Dread lord, pendant khaleth, armour darkness, ogreblade +2 str.

Rare.
2 reaper bolt throwers.
1 hydra.

Hero.
Hag, bsb, couldron of blood.

If wondering why foot lord w kouran and black guard.... Fleeing dreadlords suck.
And I'm wanting a tarpit, expensive, but tarpit nonetheless.

Darkminion
24-02-2012, 11:34
Kouran is a waste of points. Leave him at home and fill the unit up to 20. Black Guard are already Stubborn and with an LD 10 Dreadlord and the BsB nearby that is as good as being unbreakable. Kouran is a one wound character that is easily killed. Don't take him. Also, the Ogre blade is not optimal I think. Might as well give him a simple Greatweapon for the same effect. With a 1+ AS and the Pendant save striking last is not so bad. with the free points give him something else (black dragon egg for example).

D...

hazmiter
24-02-2012, 11:41
Makes them unbreakable.
But if I get rid of him, I could throw lord on cold one, in the cold one knights, w crimson death, or as you say, great weapon.
There is a banner of strikes first in it......
So I have enough for more dark riders.... Or shades.

warplock
24-02-2012, 12:56
Against High elves, take Morathi, give her the sacrificial dagger en the Black Dragon Egg and put her in a unit of 30 xbowmen. Dark Magic works very well against High Elves and she knows all of them. She has +5 to cast cast so can almost 1 dice all of the spells. If you are unfortunate to roll a 1 or 2, simply sacrifice a crossbowman and continue.

Morathi Rocks!!!

D...

How does the Sacrificial Dagger help with broken concentration, though?
Sorry if the answer's obvious, I have perused the Dark Elf book many a time but don't own a copy.

hazmiter
24-02-2012, 13:13
It allows a second chance to avoid broken con.

Darkminion
24-02-2012, 13:21
Yes, Kouran makes them unbreakable, but they do not really need it and they lose it if Kouran gets killed. And Kouran is easily killed by normal rank and file troopers.



How does the Sacrificial Dagger help with broken concentration, though?
Sorry if the answer's obvious, I have perused the Dark Elf book many a time but don't own a copy.

The sacrificial dagger lets you roll an extra casting die AFTER you made the roll. So if you mess up and lose concentration you simply sacrifice a trooper and roll an extra die.

D...

Capt._Jaelinek
24-02-2012, 14:10
Morathi is a special character with the ability to choose an Arcane item and an Enchanted item of any point cost. so yes, she can take these items and since in 8th edition she is also allowed to join units, the sacrificial dagger is very, very, very lethal in her hands!

D...

Bygolly, guess I need to read my army book closer. My apologies! The Enchanted Items kinda suck, so I agree with the Egg. Sacrificial Dagger makes her ridiculously good. With a 40mm base she can fit in with rank and file too!

Capt._Jaelinek
24-02-2012, 14:18
Makes them unbreakable.
But if I get rid of him, I could throw lord on cold one, in the cold one knights, w crimson death, or as you say, great weapon.
There is a banner of strikes first in it......
So I have enough for more dark riders.... Or shades.

Ld9 and Stubborn is really good. With the BSB nearby I wouldn't worry about Ld10. If you mount the Lord in a Cold One you can get to a 1+ save with mundane armor (Hvy armor, SD Cloak, shield, mountedx2=1+). That frees up 25pts of magic. With the ASF banner he will reroll to hit every turn with I8, but only has hatred for 1st turn with great weapon and can't use a shield. If you take the dragon helm then you don't need a shield and crimson death is good.

Definitely take a unit of shades if you can fit them in. They are less mobile than dark riders, but better in almost every other way.

hazmiter
24-02-2012, 14:22
I'll do a re write on it later.
Takes ages to make lists.
Figuring ways to pin down chaos knights to gain a charge on them w cold ones.
Kouran is in all aspects a champion, not a character, as he is a champion upgrade replacement, can declare and accept challenges, cannot be picked out in cc unlike lords and heroes.
Tbh, he should have been a lords choice.......
Unbreakable stops them fleeing on rare 10 to 12, even on rerolls.
I'm so tempted to try him out once at least.

sulla
28-02-2012, 03:49
Bygolly, guess I need to read my army book closer. My apologies! The Enchanted Items kinda suck, so I agree with the Egg. Sacrificial Dagger makes her ridiculously good. With a 40mm base she can fit in with rank and file too!Healing potion is generally useful for casters, or the potion of strength to combo with the dark sword as a nasty surprise for characters.

Play her or Malekith in Storm of Magic games too if you get a chance. They are exceptionally good up on a fulcrum.

hazmiter
28-02-2012, 05:15
Decided that cold one knights are not for me.
I have had terrible luck w those.
Dark riders however, they didn't fail me at all....
Won my first match against woc yesterday using them instead of cold one knights.
I think ill play fast shooty and sneaky, the way dark elf armies feel to me. Brute strength doesn't work for me... But cauldrons do, as do dark riders, assassins, and corsairs.
Dread lord died, but in dying, allowed me to kill off his lord, and knights.

Ravening Wh0re
29-02-2012, 15:12
I'll do a re write on it later.
Takes ages to make lists.
Figuring ways to pin down chaos knights to gain a charge on them w cold ones.
Kouran is in all aspects a champion, not a character, as he is a champion upgrade replacement, can declare and accept challenges, cannot be picked out in cc unlike lords and heroes.
Tbh, he should have been a lords choice.......
Unbreakable stops them fleeing on rare 10 to 12, even on rerolls.
I'm so tempted to try him out once at least.

Except that champs CAN be picked out in combat exactly like Heroes and Lords

hazmiter
01-03-2012, 00:51
Didn't take him raven.
Spent the points on a cauldron and assassin.
I'll write the list I used to scrap a win w.