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horus666
21-02-2012, 06:09
why do people complain about this, its only overpowered with divine greatness

Sexiest_hero
21-02-2012, 06:14
3+ward is a mess, chosenstar is filth, and horrors/fate weaver ruined 7th. GW says Khorne is the top god, but that just what Tzzentch wants us to think.

Dreadlordpaul
21-02-2012, 06:20
3+ward is a mess, chosenstar is filth, and horrors/fate weaver ruined 7th. GW says Khorne is the top god, but that just what Tzzentch wants us to think.

so you have a problem with heroes and lords having a 3+ ward

Sexiest_hero
21-02-2012, 06:27
More the troopers themselves.

dementian
21-02-2012, 06:28
Hell I have a problem with 3+ ward. My mage can't fly with a 3+ armor save and 3+ ward save why should yours!

Dreadlordpaul
21-02-2012, 06:36
because tzeench is the god of sorcery and so can give his folllowers the best protection, plus chaos sorcerors lords and exalteds along with chosen are supposed to be pretty high up in the favour of chaos

m1acca1551
21-02-2012, 06:44
I dont have a problem with chaos lords having it, but r&f having it... you bet i do. Its just plane cheese, i'd be happy to see my chaos lord rock a 3++ but have a negative affect... has to be in cc or something. otherwise the divine protection is removed.

the mark of tzeentch in itself is not op, but its stack ability is.

Far2Casual
21-02-2012, 06:58
Nobody has a real problem with 4+ wardsaves on characters. 3+ is a bit broken but it's manageable, and I guess every army should or has access to things like that (a bit better than the average).

But even 4+ wardsaves on units or troops are broken because it can be abused (with some very, very rare exceptions like huge Daemonic Monsters). It's like giving the Dwarves Organ Gun auto-hits, it breaks too many aspects of the game. I would never understand how a 15pt Phoenix Guard can walk around with a 4+ wardsave but a Noble has to pay 45 points for it.

TheOneHawk
21-02-2012, 07:15
Because WoC is the only army in the game that can have non SC 3+ wardsaves, and we can have an absolutely ridiculous number of them. Theoretically, if you were to use warriors instead of chosen, with slightly lower odds of getting the 3+ you could actually have an entire army of 3+ ward saves. 2 warshrines, a caster with ToP on a disk, a BSB with AoD in the warriors with favour of the gods, you'll get the 3+ most games. On every model in the army.

It's not broken on its own, it was fine in 7th when WoC had no access to decent ward saves. Now it's broken.

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-02-2012, 07:57
because tzeench is the god of sorcery and so can give his folllowers the best protection,

That doesn't actually make any sense though. Tzeentch is the god of Fate, Scheming, Hope, Knowledge and Magic. There is nothing in that that screams "Improved Ward save" to me. Now it's been one of the typical Tzeentch benefits recently but I think that's mainly because GW have never really worked out a good way to actually deal with Tzeentch in the game. I think a more fitting benefit from the mark would be some form of reroll power, but that gets messy quite quickly I think so the ward save option is a lot simpler. However I really do think that both the Mark of Tzeentch and Slaanesh could do with some rethinking to make them more appropriate.

m1acca1551
21-02-2012, 08:39
The mark of tzeentch should either allow the chaos player to move 1 of his units after deployment has finished or allow him re-rolls if he passes a LD test when people try to hit him in CC and ranged as tzeentch see'd if he still has the drive to be favoured??

RanaldLoec
21-02-2012, 09:16
The biggest problem with Tzeentch is demonic bird poop and lords of change shedding feathers, his cleaning bill must be a nightmare.

Then there’s the issue of Slaanesh turning up with the demonette entourage with a slurry fetish.

On a serious note it does get boring seeing just Khonre or Tzeentch armies, hence my rebellion with all things Slaanesh. A new book may rebalance or tip the scales so that all of a sudden every competitive warriors army goes all Nurgle.
We will just have to wait and see.

The Low King
21-02-2012, 09:27
But even 4+ wardsaves on units or troops are broken because it can be abused (with some very, very rare exceptions like huge Daemonic Monsters). It's like giving the Dwarves Organ Gun auto-hits, it breaks too many aspects of the game. I would never understand how a 15pt Phoenix Guard can walk around with a 4+ wardsave but a Noble has to pay 45 points for it.

Lol, two many being one?

I find that a 4+ ward is just about ok. However, a 3+ ward should be very expensive and the mark really shouldnt stack with anything other than parry.

Wesser
21-02-2012, 09:56
3+ and 4+ Ward aint overpowered by itself, its the combos that do it.

Phoenix Guards for example are 15 pts. and have heavy armour, ASF with high Int, cause fear and are WS5, STR 4 in close combat. Aside from discussions of whether elves should have units more durable than those fielded by dwarves, the problem is that such a unit have no weaknesses.

The combination of 2nd rank fighting and step-up is what broke these units as it exponentially increased the value of ward save troops. It was okay back when knights obliterated the front rank of infantry on the charge. Nowadays they not only don't make sense, they're are also broken without exception.

MoT and Phoenix Guard ward saves. They'll be a thing of the past when new books arrive I'm certain. Brets are a little more of a special case, so they might keep it (assuming they'll ever get a new book ofc)

abdulaapocolyps
21-02-2012, 10:08
Wards should be capped at 4+ full stop.
I play a tzeentch army and a +1 ward is rough,on shield mararders its devastatingly cheap.
Also,marks should cost per person in units,not for the unit overall.

BigbyWolf
21-02-2012, 11:13
As a long-time Tzeentch WoC player, I agree that the 3+ ward is a bit much. I like the mark, just not on something that already has a 4+ ward. Personally I think it's great as it allows you to take a little 15 point 6+ ward, and turn it into a 5+.


because tzeench is the god of sorcery and so can give his folllowers the best protection, plus chaos sorcerors lords and exalteds along with chosen are supposed to be pretty high up in the favour of chaos

As are the lords, exalted, sorcerers and chosen of other gods, but they don't get a bonus. Tzeentch wizards already get a bonus to cast. Trying to justify the bonus of the ward save in terms of fluff is a bit silly, it was far better represented with the re-roll system that earlier books had.

Akkaryn
21-02-2012, 11:18
I'd personally say the stackable plus 1 ward is fine.

I'd say the problem doesn't lie with the mark but the abuse of games mechanics to get that double 6 on the chosen. If i use chosen and favour I don't modify the roll to something I can't use and reroll.

Yet to hear a complaint even the times when I did roll an 11 or 12.

Shamutanti
21-02-2012, 12:02
I can't believe anyone is stating theirs a problem with Phoenix Guard. I've never, ever, had a problem facing them. Sure they're fairly tough to kill in combat (although shooting isn't a worry in truth, they fall over in spades with only Heavy Armour and T3), but they've never caused me trouble. They're not killy enough to cause my armies any worries.

I poo my pants everytime I see multiple large blocks of White Lions, but Phoenix? Naah.

Edit: In terms of Chosen, I don't mind them persay, but having faced the big block before, pumped with a C. Sorc of T. I will admit it's frustrating.

Of course, my counter is that if they ain't using the Chosen models, they ain't chosen. You wanna bring 30-40 Chosen to the table? Get your wallet out bud. For those people who HAVE paid the cash for it, you'know what, sure, I'll take you on. At least I'll die looking at really nice looking models. But plastic Warriors? Nah, they ain't chosen. Jog on.

Feefait
21-02-2012, 12:06
My only issue with it is that the Parry Save is classified as a ward save. If it just granted a 6+ ward that would fine, but it's the adding to existing parries that just seems like lazy rules writing.

I also want to add it is so much better than any other mark that it almost seems like you take the others just to be gimmicky. I'd like some more balance among them.

snyggejygge
21-02-2012, 12:22
I think the mark itself is quite fluffy, Tzeentch is indeed the master of Fate. I see it as Tzeentch or his followers change their fates & can get flashes into the future to get +1 to their ward. Sure a re-roll ight be more appropiate, but re-rolls to units would be weird, easier this way.
& imo it isn't op on a sorcerer or other character to get a 3+ ward, worse things in the game... The problem doesn't really arise until the block of chosen get a 3+ ward, troops should never have that kind of resilence, the Eye of the gods table shouldn't be able to be abused like that, remove the top result or remove favour of the gods & never allow any unit to have more than 1 favour at a time from shrines, that way it can't be abused as much.

Edit: & I agree that marks should be per model, not per unit & more balanced costwise for different units, why would you use Frenzy on a shrine instead of +1ward, & yet the frenzy costs more!?

Snake1311
21-02-2012, 12:22
Ward saves should cap at 4+.

The 3+ abusing stuff (not only on chosen btw) is more hax coming from the warshrine than MoT. 4+ ward & stubborn as ONE benefit is just too brutal.

The bearded one
21-02-2012, 13:25
I don't like fighting against stormshield-terminators outside of 40K.

warplock
21-02-2012, 13:50
I don't have a problem with a 3+ ward (on WoC characters), the only problem is the price combined with the fact that it doesn't eat into their magic slot. Ward saves are costed at 15 points per level, so a 3+ ward save should cost 60 points. WoC get this cheaper and also only have to use 45 points of their magic item allowance (if they want to chance it then can even just take the armour of morrsleib and only spend 35) meaning they can be well protected and extremely killy, which is a bit much in my opinion.

IcedCrow
21-02-2012, 13:57
There are a lot of things in the game that can be "a bit too much". That is warhammer.

Gradek
21-02-2012, 14:04
This is simply not a big deal and is nothing more than complaining by people who have lost to a 3++ Chosen unit. Getting the 3+ on a unit is exceedingly expensive (at least getting it guaranteed) and it still leaves the unit vulnerable to magic. In order to get a near guarantee to pull this off turn 1, you need Chosen, FoTG, Wailing Banner, and 2 Warshrines. And even then, you have almost as much of a chance of rolling a snake eyes (which cannot be favored away) as you do of the 4+ WS/Stubborn. The simple fix to this "problem" is to disallow FoTG to move a valid result to a re-roll. I find it sad that people complain about an extremely expensive (and not guaranteed) combo for an army that isn't even top 3, when many other armies have far more broken and cheaper units/combos/etc.

belgarath97
21-02-2012, 17:25
Actually, straight up, Khorne Warriors with halberds are, statistically, going to win against Tzeentch Warriors with shield. There is room to argue Khorne is better in some circumstances. But they are both so much better a choice than Nurgle and Slaanesh it is not even funny.

BigbyWolf
21-02-2012, 17:28
This is simply not a big deal and is nothing more than complaining by people who have lost to a 3++ Chosen unit.

I've never lost to a 3++ Chosen unit, and I still think it should be capped at 4+. :eyebrows:

belgarath97
21-02-2012, 17:54
I've never lost to a 3++ Chosen unit, and I still think it should be capped at 4+. :eyebrows:

You are a lucky man. I believe they can be beat, and I have beaten them. But you know what, in the end I didn't have fun, even when I won. So now when I see someone putting a chosen star on the table, I kindly thank them, shake their hand, and pack up my stuff. I play to have fun, and I don't think the chosenstar is fun. To reemphasize, EVEN WHEN I WIN!

Dark Aly
21-02-2012, 17:54
there are two reasons really-
a) there are better ways to represent the mark of tzeentch fluffwise. The ward save bonus just feels tacked on.
b) It is too good for far to few points. As somebody else has stated, before 8th WoC had very limited access to ward saves and therefore it was not much of an issue at all.

I think it's a safe bet that the 3+ ward will be absent when WoC get a new book so enjoy it while you can I suppose.

Dreadlordpaul
21-02-2012, 18:10
You are a lucky man. I believe they can be beat, and I have beaten them. But you know what, in the end I didn't have fun, even when I won. So now when I see someone putting a chosen star on the table, I kindly thank them, shake their hand, and pack up my stuff. I play to have fun, and I don't think the chosenstar is fun. To reemphasize, EVEN WHEN I WIN!

so wait if say someone like me plays a mostly tzeench themed army you refuse to play it? im sorry no offence but thats pathetic


there are two reasons really-
a) there are better ways to represent the mark of tzeentch fluffwise. The ward save bonus just feels tacked on.
b) It is too good for far to few points. As somebody else has stated, before 8th WoC had very limited access to ward saves and therefore it was not much of an issue at all.

I think it's a safe bet that the 3+ ward will be absent when WoC get a new book so enjoy it while you can I suppose.

which means in the new book it will be crap and as such my mostly tzeench army will be ruined. im sorry but people have a go at WoC for the 3+ ward but the fact is on characters it isnt too good.

Tanglewood
21-02-2012, 18:11
I find it on the contrary. Usually the 3++ Tzeentch chosen star player moans at me about cheese. Curse of the Horned Rat does not discriminate between Chosen or skele warriors. It's an equal opportunity spell.

BigbyWolf
21-02-2012, 18:15
You are a lucky man. I believe they can be beat, and I have beaten them. But you know what, in the end I didn't have fun, even when I won. So now when I see someone putting a chosen star on the table, I kindly thank them, shake their hand, and pack up my stuff. I play to have fun, and I don't think the chosenstar is fun. To reemphasize, EVEN WHEN I WIN!

Yeah, it's definitely a boring way to play the game. I've only faced one once, and just ran away from it while picking off other things.

I'm more concerned about the characters (although certainly less terrifying than the Chosenstar, they're the only ones that I face on a regular basis). Really, the Tzeentch bonus started when WoC didn't have access to a 4+ ward for their characters, so it wasn't really an issue.


so wait if say someone like me plays a mostly tzeench themed army you refuse to play it? im sorry no offence but thats pathetic.

Please read the post- he was referring to the Chosenstar, nothing to do with a Tzeentch themed army. I run a Tzeentch themed army myself, and even I would look for a different opponent before I face that one-trick pony.


which means in the new book it will be crap and as such my mostly tzeench army will be ruined. im sorry but people have a go at WoC for the 3+ ward but the fact is on characters it isnt too good.

Your entire army would be ruined if they had a slightly worse ward save? Seriously? To paraphrase your earlier quote: I'm sorry, no offence. But thats pathetic.

Gunless Ganger
21-02-2012, 18:25
which means in the new book it will be crap and as such my mostly tzeench army will be ruined. im sorry but people have a go at WoC for the 3+ ward but the fact is on characters it isnt too good.

You're right - everything in Warhammer that DOESN'T have a 3+ ward save is just crap. :rolleyes: :p

This is where you realize how ridiculous and overeactive that sounded and we all have a good laugh together. :D

TsukeFox
21-02-2012, 18:29
The problem is there is nothing negative to counter balance the powerful positive.

Skaven have a one time 3+ ward and once used it causes stupid.

Tzeentch ward save just makes "terminator" like characters & units.
At which Point the only tactical hope is that your opponent rolls poorly

Dreadlordpaul
21-02-2012, 18:31
Yeah, it's definitely a boring way to play the game. I've only faced one once, and just ran away from it while picking off other things.

I'm more concerned about the characters (although certainly less terrifying than the Chosenstar, they're the only ones that I face on a regular basis). Really, the Tzeentch bonus started when WoC didn't have access to a 4+ ward for their characters, so it wasn't really an issue.



Read the post- he was referring to the Chosenstar, nothing to do with a Tzeentch themed army. I run a Tzeentch themed army myself, and even I would look for a different opponent before I face that one-trick pony.

ii was refering to the fact i plan to include tzeench chosen in my army to serve as my chaos lords bodyguard

Your entire army would be ruined if they had a slightly worse ward save? Seriously? To paraphrase your earlier quote:
yes my army relies on being able to get good wards as my regular oponents take both high strength attacks and stuff that i dont get armour against

The Low King
21-02-2012, 18:33
yes my army relies on being able to get good wards as my regular oponents take both high strength attacks and stuff that i dont get armour against

You mean the things every army in the game has to deal with without the use of good wards?

BigbyWolf
21-02-2012, 18:45
yes my army relies on being able to get good wards as my regular oponents take both high strength attacks and stuff that i dont get armour against

And a 4+ ward isn't good?

Dreadlordpaul
21-02-2012, 18:46
You mean the things every army in the game has to deal with without the use of good wards?

yes but most other armies aint paying 16 points per model for one of their core units

TheOneHawk
21-02-2012, 18:50
Because most armies have to use their special allowance to get something as good as Chaos Warriors.

Dreadlordpaul
21-02-2012, 18:55
yes but most other armies have a way to deal with high strength units outside of combat and magic

Gunless Ganger
21-02-2012, 19:03
yes but most other armies aint paying 16 points per model for one of their core units

Key word being ONE of their core troops. Meaning that you could use cheap maurauders to tie up High S units that your "crap" ward save 4+ guys can't handle. ;)


yes but most other armies have a way to deal with high strength units outside of combat and magic

Yeah if only you had access to some kind of cannon... :shifty:

TheOneHawk
21-02-2012, 19:09
Or Marauders, as you said. Hounds for redirections works great too.

I'll put it this way. I've never once in my career taken the MoT on anything, and I do just fine. I don't need it, so why the hell do you?

Dreadlordpaul
21-02-2012, 19:23
first off i already run 30 maruders in my army along with hounds and i dont run a maruder army for a simple reason i dont want to buy and paint 100+ core models just so i can use the army. plus i have tried double hell cannon and it simply does not work. i take MoT because its the only chaos god i really like in fantasy

TheOneHawk
21-02-2012, 19:25
We've got no problem with you taking MoT, it's just that it's not the only way possible ever for troops to survive against high strength attacks. It's too good for it's points, plain and simple.

BigbyWolf
21-02-2012, 20:17
i take MoT because its the only chaos god i really like in fantasy

I agree, it's by far my favourite god, I just don't really believe that changing it would ruin your army.

Texhnolyze
21-02-2012, 20:20
They should just FAQ it, so it says, Mark of Tzeench can not improve a ward save beyond 4++

vinush
21-02-2012, 20:26
Okay, Dreadlordpaul, no one is saying your choice of army is evil or wrong or flawed. What they were saying was that your reaction to the suggestion that the MoT losing the boost to ward save would go, or that it would be capped at 4++ (a distinct possibility as evidenced by the Mortis Engine capping regeneration bonus at 4+) was a bit extreme to say the least. One rule altering slightly should not make an entire 2000+ points worth of army worthless.

Hell, in the 17 or so years I've been playing Warhammer I have seen so many rules come and go for the four main armies I have collected and stuck with over the years that you learn to adapt.

I had a 6000 point Empire army which when the last edition army book came out dropped to only about 3000 points of legal army. When the new ruleset came out the amount I could field soared to a massive 7000-8000! I had to buy a lot of models when the last edition of the army book came out, got rid of a load of stuff I no longer wanted or had use for, etc.

My O&G army went from entertaining madness to boring and uninspiring with the previous army book. My biggest regret here was that I gave them all away (around 3000 points worth of stuff) rather than shelving them and waiting for them to become fun once again, which they have with the current edition army book.

My High Elves went from very solid and reliable to an army that was almost a joke (Intrigue at Court rule meaning you couldn't guarantee who your general would be, and once I was led by my BSB! Or the time my level 1 mage led the entire army, despite having a High Elf Prince with his Ld 10!) to an army that is almost boring in its predictability to win. My heavily ranged army had to adapt to the new rules, city guard no longer exist, units have changed in usefulness, etc. You know what? I survived, the army is still useable, and I still enjoy using them.

My VC army (Is it wrong that I still want to call them Undead?) This is my first ever army, and I still use them. I have weather many a shift in focus for the army. From the good old days(tm) when you had Liche Lords, Mummies and Vampires all in one army it changed to your general had to be a magic user (Meaning my mummy led army was no more, nor the Wight led army). Then it changed to having to have a Vampire general, ok, I coped with that, I adapted. Then Necromancers (my favourite part of the army since forever) became second rate comic book villains and henchmen. Again, I adapted, things changed. Zombies became useless, Skeletons next to worthless, and ghould were the go to units. I adapted, I adjusted. I bought ghouls (they were far too "alive" for my tastes). And now with the current army book my army has shifted again. I have had to purchase a lot more zombies due to how fast they raise, I need to replace a lot of my battle damaged skeletons (I have 80 winging their wicked way to me as we speak). I've gone from having three units of 5 wolves to having to field one unit of 10. I survived. My army survived.

In short, if you're committed to the game, and your army, you'll play them even when the focus shifts.

Chaos are very powerful. Certain builds when coupled with MoT are even more so. Quit overreacting.

THE \/ince

Duke Ramulots
21-02-2012, 20:38
Or Marauders, as you said. Hounds for redirections works great too.

I'll put it this way. I've never once in my career taken the MoT on anything, and I do just fine. I don't need it, so why the hell do you?

Not everyone has your tastes. I run a themed Nurgle army, so by your reasoning(or complete lack of), everyone should run it as well?

I have a question for the naysayers, what makes a 3+ ward no fun to play against?

vinush
21-02-2012, 20:46
The 3+ ward isn't too bad on its own, it's when it's a 3+, followed by 3++ ward, coupled with the superior stats of the troops/characters with it.

THE \/ince

Sexiest_hero
21-02-2012, 20:51
Pretty much the best warrior with the best armor and the best ward save, and dang near the best magic casters, who are also one of the best fighty magic casters, and flying on top of that, with a 3+ 3++ and the puppet. You have to see why WoC and DoC make up almost half of most cut-throat tournies.

snyggejygge
21-02-2012, 21:40
And yet Chaos rarely come out on top in tournaments....

As said I don't think the ward is the problem, you guys would complain on 4++ chosen as well, the warshrines ability to give the chosen the buff along with the chance to correct it the way you want seems to be the big issue. Playing against chosen deathstar is boring...
Yes a 3++ sorc is tough, but not tougher than a slann, not many complain about them despite cupped hands!

The Low King
21-02-2012, 21:59
Slan have poor stats and only a 4+ ward for protection. They usually dont have anything extra. They are also very much complained about as being OP because of Becalming cognitations, Cupped hands and a few other things.

Sexiest_hero
21-02-2012, 22:03
They also don't fly and sport a 3+ armor, with stats better than some other armies combat lords. You simply arn't gonna convince anybody that WoC have major issues, and that's why they are getting an update.

Dreadlordpaul
21-02-2012, 22:09
They also don't fly and sport a 3+ armor, with stats better than some other armies combat lords. You simply arn't gonna convince anybody that WoC have major issues, and that's why they are getting an update.

yet its people like you who wont be happy til they are as weak as beastmen, seriously WoC have so many weaknesses so exploit them

The Low King
21-02-2012, 22:14
So many weaknesses:

Not much shooting (only the hellcannon)
Not Ld 10
No hydra level monsters

what other weaknesses do they have pray tell?

Snake1311
21-02-2012, 22:17
The 3+ ward isn't too bad on its own, it's when it's a 3+, followed by 3++ ward, coupled with the superior stats of the troops/characters with it.

THE \/ince

The new flavor of the month is actually getting it on a knight deathstar. So its a 1+/3++, with stubborn. Good stuff.

Why is the 3++ no fun? well, because playing against WoC is destroy or be destroyed; when a 3++ ward takes away the first option the game becomes 'run like a pussy, tie units up and deny points'. Which is fine by me, but I can see why some people don't like it. I've had people running chosen deathstars have the audacity to cry cheese when I hold up their 600 pt unit with my dwarf lordpedo, and their grumpy faces and words of rage make me feel warm and fuzzy inside :D.

Dreadlordpaul
21-02-2012, 22:18
being a elite army
extremely weak against lore of metal
slow movement
has to challenge
high points cost

Snake1311
21-02-2012, 22:24
So many weaknesses:

Not much shooting (only the hellcannon)
Not Ld 10
No hydra level monsters

what other weaknesses do they have pray tell?

- And also: stream of corruption, bloodcurdling roar (both extremely point effective), throwing spears, throwing axes (on core marauder horsemen)
- Hi, I'm the banner of discipline, I'd like to glitch your leadership so every army has Ld 10
- Hellcannon isn't hydra level now? Its T6 W5 4+ Unbreakable in the context of an army which vandalizes you from behind without lube if they manage to hold you in combat. And it shoots S5 plates of panic in its spare time.

Your points were made as a joke, and still failed to showcase any real weakness :p.

You know why WoC seem like an average, or even below average army? Because every child which has ever looked at warhammer has at some point wanted to play WoC. As a result, this army is often used by players whose tactics are "walk forward and hit stuff". I've seen pro players handle the army, and its ******* scary.

The Low King
21-02-2012, 22:32
being a elite army

You dont have to field chaos warriors. You have the ability to field an army of 5 point models. Its like saying that empire are an elite army when you only take knights.
You have cheaper troops than Dwarfs and wood/high elves have access to.


extremely weak against lore of metal

I can accept this as a reasonable weakness but;

Only when you take chaos warriors, wich you dont have to.
Also, few people take lore of metal.
Most other armies are more vulnerable to certian spells, with Dwarfs is purple sun, elves its dwellers.


slow movement

In what way? you have base M4, the 'normal' movement. You also have cavalry.


has to challenge

With characters that are the best in the game. It is a slight weakness but then you get eye of the gods rolls when you win challenges so i dont want you fighting champions.


high points cost

Same as elite. You have marauders.



You have far fewer weaknesses than most other armies.




- And also: stream of corruption, bloodcurdling roar (both extremely point effective), throwing spears, throwing axes (on core marauder horsemen)
- Hi, I'm the banner of discipline, I'd like to glitch your leadership so every army has Ld 10
- Hellcannon isn't hydra level now? Its T6 W5 4+ Unbreakable in the context of an army which vandalizes you from behind without lube if they manage to hold you in combat. And it shoots S5 plates of panic in its spare time.

Your points were made as a joke, and still failed to showcase any real weakness :p.

You know why WoC seem like an average, or even below average army? Because every child which has ever looked at warhammer has at some point wanted to play WoC. As a result, this army is often used by players whose tactics are "walk forward and hit stuff". I've seen pro players handle the army, and its ******* scary.

Yep, i agree, i was just trying to avoid posting 'i cant really see any proper weaknesses' :D


Ive played against bad players and trashed them with my dwarf combat list (beaten them at their own game). Ive also played agaisnt a couple of very good chaos players and been soundly beaten.

Gradek
21-02-2012, 23:25
The thing every Chaos hater here seems to overlook is that the 3+WS is extremely costly to get and even then you do have a chance of getting stupidity instead. In order to pull off the 3+ WS with any consistency, you need FoTG, the Wailing Banner, AND TWO Warshrines. So you need to tie up 315 points (in addition to the unit you want to bless) and even then, you still have a 25% chance of getting stupidity instead of the WS. The simple fix to this whole problem is simply to not allow re-rolls of otherwise valid results from FoTG (ie, you cannot move the roll from a valid result to a re-rollable one).

The Low King
21-02-2012, 23:29
Correct me if im wrong but doesnt that item that lets you change the result by 1 mean you can always avoid stupidity? I thought the point was that the only roll you have to keep was stubborn or 4+ ward?

Anyway, one of the complaints is having it on characters, thats costs 45 points for the talisman of preservation.

Gradek
21-02-2012, 23:39
Correct me if im wrong but doesnt that item that lets you change the result by 1 mean you can always avoid stupidity? I thought the point was that the only roll you have to keep was stubborn or 4+ ward?

Anyway, one of the complaints is having it on characters, thats costs 45 points for the talisman of preservation.

Nope, you cannot change the result of a snake eyes. And sure for 1 character for 65 points (on a Sorcerer) we can get a 3+ WS, big deal. It isn't exactly an unkillable dreadlord or the obscene crap that Vampires can put out now or a Slaan who can hide in the middle of a block, etc.

Sexiest_hero
21-02-2012, 23:52
You ca keep being in denial, but as you your self say, I want WoC to be as weak as BoC. That leads me to believe you think MoT is all that makes WoC work. That right there, should tell you the OP of the mark. Oh and BoC arn't weak, just unforgiving. But I'm sure every army without 3+ 3++ core A template shooting monster, and a flying armored wizard seems weak to you.

Snake1311
22-02-2012, 00:01
The thing every Chaos hater here seems to overlook is that the 3+WS is extremely costly to get and even then you do have a chance of getting stupidity instead. In order to pull off the 3+ WS with any consistency, you need FoTG, the Wailing Banner, AND TWO Warshrines. So you need to tie up 315 points (in addition to the unit you want to bless) and even then, you still have a 25% chance of getting stupidity instead of the WS. The simple fix to this whole problem is simply to not allow re-rolls of otherwise valid results from FoTG (ie, you cannot move the roll from a valid result to a re-rollable one).

And then you get to remove stupidity next turn, no big deal.
Counting the warshrines towards the cost isn't really fair. They are a) a decent unit in their own right - obviously not worth as much as they cost, but about on par with an elite chariot, and b) after, and in the process of getting your ward + stubborn, you will also get some other nice buff. +1S, +1A, +1T, +1As are all decent picks.

And this doesn't affect tzeentch characters who get it near automatically. And you say 65 points like its bad! 1) this includes the cost of +1 to cast as well, 2) it doesn't come out of your item allowence, and 3) every further point of ward save is exponentially better than the previous one, because maths, and 4) ward save effectiveness exponentially scales with other character toughness - your wizards already have chaos armour and are T4.

Aaaand 5) its not 65 points either. AFAIK, you can get a 3+ ward against shooting and magic missles (and a +1 to cast) for a total 45 points - for a caster on a disk, what more could you need? You'd have to mess up hard for the enemy to be able to engage a flyer that doesn't have to be too near to be effective, or if you do engage in CC, its because you have chosen to - like beating on warmachines.

Gradek
22-02-2012, 00:06
You ca keep being in denial, but as you your self say, I want WoC to be as weak as BoC. That leads me to believe you think MoT is all that makes WoC work. That right there, should tell you the OP of the mark. Oh and BoC arn't weak, just unforgiving. But I'm sure every army without 3+ 3++ core A template shooting monster, and a flying armored wizard seems weak to you.

Units have points for a reason. That Flying 3+ Sorcerer costs 355 points (that's just the disc, 3+, and lvl4) and since he is also going to likely be my general, I am not going to benefit from the special rules if he does fly around. For that kind of point investment, other armies can get a lot more stuff (3+ cannons, Arch Lector on the War Altar (or the Grand Theogonist himself), 5 points away for a High Elf lvl4 with Book, 2 Hydras, etc). And that Chosenstar (which I do not run), is still very vulnerable to magic (especially Skaven magic). It isn't as though Chaos don't have weaknesses, but as a top 5 army they have less than other forces (but Chaos still aren't in the same league as Skaven, Dark Elves, or Demons).

Gradek
22-02-2012, 00:08
And then you get to remove stupidity next turn, no big deal.


WRONG. Stupidity is for the rest of the game.

TheOneHawk
22-02-2012, 00:14
So you get immune to psychology on your unit, no big deal. It's kind of a plus.

Sexiest_hero
22-02-2012, 00:36
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?332877-Gottacon-2012-Warhammer-Tournament-Results-2500-points-8th-Ed-Fantasy-Event


Riddle me this, People spam power armies in tournies, WoC usually place high in # of players and wins. Every thread about Tzeentch "Chosenstar" involves somebody saying "You wont have any friends". It's ok to play cut throat, filthy lists if you want. But don't sit there and say it isn't as bad as double aboms/hydra.You just come off as one of those guys arguing Daemons were't broken in 7th. You play a high powered army, no harm in it, don't hide from that fact though.

Dreadlordpaul
22-02-2012, 06:05
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?332877-Gottacon-2012-Warhammer-Tournament-Results-2500-points-8th-Ed-Fantasy-Event


Riddle me this, People spam power armies in tournies, WoC usually place high in # of players and wins. Every thread about Tzeentch "Chosenstar" involves somebody saying "You wont have any friends". It's ok to play cut throat, filthy lists if you want. But don't sit there and say it isn't as bad as double aboms/hydra.You just come off as one of those guys arguing Daemons were't broken in 7th. You play a high powered army, no harm in it, don't hide from that fact though.

if its such a high power army why is it o&g walk all over my army then?

Peregijn
22-02-2012, 06:44
i play mostly tzeentch because the mark used to give my chaos lord 4 magic lvls for 160 points... (would love to get that back btw)
my army is 40% tzeentch 40% khorne 15% nurgle and 5% slaanesh, with the nurgle and slaanesh being worked on so that eventually all the 4 gods will be represented in a equal amount of points. (my army is over 10k points now).

I have wielde the chose star of tzeentch thing but i really don't like it. (i have terrible luck so i almost never get the 3+ ward and if do the unit doesn't see combat or gets charged by seven skink herous buffed with the lore of beasts) so i spend those 600 points on some other cheese thing: Nurgle knights with the banner of rage.

teafloy_the_damned
22-02-2012, 06:55
As an upgrade, the mark of Tzeentch isn't overpowerd, yes you can create a few nasty combinations but every army has nasty tricks for the power player.

But saying that, for its price cost, it is overpowered.
+1 to cast...ok
+1 to ward saves...wow thats quite good
or +1 to parry saves...er wait how much does this cost again?

Darnok
22-02-2012, 07:49
if its such a high power army why is it o&g walk all over my army then?

Ever thought about this: it might be due to you, not the army itself...

Gromdal
22-02-2012, 07:53
For troops 3++ is not ok. For lords and heroes 3++ is ok. 5++ for shield using warriors is ok, considering how good halberd or grt weps are

Havock
22-02-2012, 11:11
so you have a problem with heroes and lords having a 3+ ward

Nope, people have issues with a whole unit of "better stats than you" having a 3+ wardsave as well.
Honestly, if #12 gave regeneration instead of the wardsave, you'd hear a lot less of it. Tzeentch Warriors with HW/shield actually tank good, they don't deal a whole lot of damage but in this case my opinion is that the mark came out nicely.

A unit wide 3+ wardsave is just too. damn. good.

Characters with 3++ is nasty, but not unheard of. But 30+ blokes who can trash just about any other unit statwise... Nah.

The Low King
22-02-2012, 11:39
Chaos warriors with shields can make small but very hard to shift blocks. They can also still do a lot of damage simply because of their basic stats.

Although a block of marauders with 5++ parry saves are quite hard to shift aswell.

Havock
22-02-2012, 12:23
Relatively, for their cost 2 S4 attacks aren't all that hot, but I am ok with that: they tank **** while something else can deal the killing blow. They are anvils who can hammer a bit as well. A bit, they have trouble hacking through hordes or T4+ opponents.

Gradek
22-02-2012, 12:46
I just don't see the big deal. The combo is very expensive to pull off, you can only get it on one unit, and that unit is still likely to have a low model count (due to the cost of chaos troops). That unit will still be very vulnerable to magic (and of course the 13th) while also being able to be countered by opposing steadfast units. And again, the easy fix here is not to nerf the potential 3+ WS, but to change FoTG so that you cannot move a valid result to a re-roll. That change alone would essentially remove this combo from ever seeing competitive play because the odds would dramatically shift against getting the 4+ WS on the Eye of the Gods table.

Montegue
22-02-2012, 12:53
Every time I see a batrep involving the 3+ ward save Chosen Star, it's pretty big. Low model count? Nah. If having the 3+ ward wasn't all that great, a lot less people would be bothering to invest the points in it.

The Low King
22-02-2012, 13:02
Relatively, for their cost 2 S4 attacks aren't all that hot, but I am ok with that: they tank **** while something else can deal the killing blow. They are anvils who can hammer a bit as well. A bit, they have trouble hacking through hordes or T4+ opponents.

Ironbreakers pay 13 points a model for the same armour, 6+ parry and one S4 attack.


The combo is quite expensive to pull off and makes a unit insanely good.

Gradek
22-02-2012, 13:27
Ironbreakers pay 13 points a model for the same armour, 6+ parry and one S4 attack.


The combo is quite expensive to pull off and makes a unit insanely good.

And that is where the balance comes in. It is EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE to pull off with consistency AND in order to do so you have to spend 260-300 points on suboptimal units (ie the shrines) when you could get Hellcannon(s) instead. And like I have stated earlier, the easy fix is just to not allow FoTG to move a valid result to a re-rolled one.

Tayrod
22-02-2012, 13:35
3+ and 4+ Ward aint overpowered by itself, its the combos that do it.

Phoenix Guards for example are 15 pts. and have heavy armour, ASF with high Int, cause fear and are WS5, STR 4 in close combat. Aside from discussions of whether elves should have units more durable than those fielded by dwarves, the problem is that such a unit have no weaknesses.

The combination of 2nd rank fighting and step-up is what broke these units as it exponentially increased the value of ward save troops. It was okay back when knights obliterated the front rank of infantry on the charge. Nowadays they not only don't make sense, they're are also broken without exception.

MoT and Phoenix Guard ward saves. They'll be a thing of the past when new books arrive I'm certain. Brets are a little more of a special case, so they might keep it (assuming they'll ever get a new book ofc)

doubt that. Savage orcs got the shrunken head for the nice 5+ ward save combo, and that was under the 8th ruleset.

The bearded one
22-02-2012, 13:43
* cough, sputter *

warshrines are suboptimal units now?

Can't chosen always reroll snake-eyes and result 7 on their initial roll? If you take all the stuff to maximise the potential for the 3+ ward (terror banner, favour of the gods) there are like a 3 results out of 10 you can't reroll, and none of those 3 is bad. Which ones are results 4 and 5 again? extra strenght and attack? And the other is result 12. Unless you are really unlucky, you will have the 3+ ward on turn 1 or 2.

The fix to prevent it is easy. GW just won't fix it.

brother_maynard
22-02-2012, 14:25
doubt that. Savage orcs got the shrunken head for the nice 5+ ward save combo, and that was under the 8th ruleset.

The thing about that save is that once you off a T5, 3W character it goes away, so its not really comparable to chosen or PG

Havock
22-02-2012, 14:26
Ironbreakers pay 13 points a model for the same armour, 6+ parry and one S4 attack.


The combo is quite expensive to pull off and makes a unit insanely good.

Yes, in an army with better Leadership and shooting all around.

If we are talking about MoT warriors with shields (ie. 3+/5++ in combat) then, considering the fact that the ironbreakers are well supported by guns and crossbows, they should be fairly evenly matched.
A balanced dwarf army versus a non-cheesed out WoC army leads to fairly close games from my experience.

The Low King
22-02-2012, 14:34
Since when to chaos warriors lose combat and need LD?

Ironbreakers are supported by warmachines.
Chaos warriors are supported by magic.
Cancels out.

Petey
22-02-2012, 14:51
because tzeench is the god of sorcery and so can give his folllowers the best protection, plus chaos sorcerors lords and exalteds along with chosen are supposed to be pretty high up in the favour of chaos

Lulz, have you even read the fluff? since tzeench is your god, you should roll d6 at the end of every turn, on a 1 roll a further d6, if you get a non imaginary number on that next roll, roll on the d1000 table for a random mutation (which might be Spawndom!) did I mention, there s instant death on that chart... also godlike power.

Havock
22-02-2012, 15:22
Since when to chaos warriors lose combat and need LD?

Ironbreakers are supported by warmachines.
Chaos warriors are supported by magic.
Cancels out.

Because you still 'only' hit on 3's/wound on 4's against dwarves. You can fail that. If you talk halberds, then, yeah, you'll mince them but I was talking about sword & board warriors.
Trust me, I have played a good time with them and they just don't pull their weight in the damage departmment: they can tank like bosses but any mob of 30+ orcs/dwarfs is going to be annoying. See steadfast, they just can't whittle down your numbers like a unit of frenzied halberd warriors can.

Magic can be dispelled, your shooting phase cannot.

The Low King
22-02-2012, 15:54
Magic is more powerful than shooting when it gets through. You can also take ironcurse icon and have a 5+ ward against it.

The bearded one
22-02-2012, 16:55
* spit * 5+ ward ironcurse.. ><

I'd say warmachines are easier to engage and take out of the game than a wizard tucked away in a unit though.

pippin_nl
22-02-2012, 17:15
Because you still 'only' hit on 3's/wound on 4's against dwarves. You can fail that. If you talk halberds, then, yeah, you'll mince them but I was talking about sword & board warriors.
Trust me, I have played a good time with them and they just don't pull their weight in the damage departmment: they can tank like bosses but any mob of 30+ orcs/dwarfs is going to be annoying. See steadfast, they just can't whittle down your numbers like a unit of frenzied halberd warriors can.

Magic can be dispelled, your shooting phase cannot.

The dwarves would still be quite lucky to kill a single warrior and you would be extremely unlucky to kill just one. Agree with the shooting, an empire shooting phase is often more effective than their magic phase, same aplies to skaven & dwarfs :D

Havock
22-02-2012, 17:25
That's why you tend to spam great weapons as a dwarf player: everything that doesn't have a great weapon isn't required to kill anything in combat really, just hold it up until the kneecap-brigade comes to the rescue.

The Low King
22-02-2012, 17:31
If the dwarfs have GWs then the Chaos warriors still get a 5+/5++ save against them. Dwarfs hit on 4s, wound on 3s, 5+/5++ save. Warriors hit on 3s, wound on 4s, 6+ save.

Havock
22-02-2012, 19:16
Yet there will usually be more dwarfs than there will be warriors. Usually ;)

Not saying the books are close to balance, just that WoC is -aside from 3+ ward doomchosen- a reasonable matchup for dwarfs: everything has to come to you and it is all predictable all hell.

lukas721
23-02-2012, 20:10
Why I imagine 1250pts game where 250 is core warriors bunker and up to 1k is chosen deathstar +gen +BSB? Adding tower scenario with congo line trick for making to tower turn 1? WoC can be nasty and cheesy, but other armies too, I have WoC as my main army but I don't play deathstar combo coz it's not fun trying run to anything not being redirected all game or stuck against stubborn NG, not only it make mad opponent but not give much fun, coz against WoC deathstar it's point denial, hit and run all other than deathstar or try kill with magic witch isn't so easy.

I think with other armies trends that GW makes WoC will go cheaper and little less elite and will try to not allow too much deathstars in WoC, reason is easy money :P
8th edition is horde edition, to make ppl buy more minis, now WoC can take caster few Warriors and something more and is good to go, don't need spend much on minis and paints etc. like i.e. skavens, I think WoC will be less elite and little cheaper maybe they will go to 1 attack to not loose 1 from second rank like now, more marauders time I think will come, generally units will go little less elite to allow put more units and GW will earn some $ on it, and it will make deathstar combos like this disappear.

The best way to put end on deathstar will be 1 favour per unit only, and warshrines will come 1 army max, because Chosen will start with gift on start without way to change it, and shrine will will give favour to other units coz chosen have 1 already, this will make WS hard to get and ppl will start to play using tactic not only berserker style rush to kill, not saying all play this way, but way too much :P

Snake1311
27-02-2012, 11:39
Against dawi, if you get the 3++and stubborn off on any unit, the dwarfs start having an uphill battle.

Those two should basically be separate bonuses on the EotG table - either one is powerful enough on its own. You can scrap one of the crappy ones to make space for it, like fear or MR.

And the MAIN issue is that Favour of the Gods works on units. Looking at its cost, it was clearly never intended to.

Midloo
27-02-2012, 13:14
One of the most unpleasant games I have played in 8th edition was against a Tzeentch Warriors of Chaos army. I don't understand all the particulars of the book, but I was up against a block of about 30 Warriors, 25 Chosen, and a flying #$$hole on a disc with a 3+ ward save. I was playing lizards and hit his Warriors with two blocks of 25 or so Saurus Warriors in the front and a Steg in the flank on turn 2. It was like I had hit him with a feather. We sat in combat for a few turns before he just ground me to death.

All I know is when you get off three perfect charges (one of which is in the flank) with some tough units, you should stand a pretty good chance of winning the combat. I was rolling huge handfuls of St 4 attacks with the Saurus and they were just bouncing off. I had more than twice the number of points involved in the close combat than he did and I never stood a chance. That's broken.

warhammero
27-02-2012, 13:25
Something that quit the OP dead star could be if the "chariot/monster" die the blessing disapier.

theunwantedbeing
27-02-2012, 13:34
All I know is when you get off three perfect charges (one of which is in the flank) with some tough units, you should stand a pretty good chance of winning the combat. I was rolling huge handfuls of St 4 attacks with the Saurus and they were just bouncing off. I had more than twice the number of points involved in the close combat than he did and I never stood a chance. That's broken.

St4 attacks don't really cut it against that sort of unit sadly.
A horde of them throws out a maximum of 41 which averages just 2.28 wounds on those chosen.
They'll do about 8-9 wounds from half that in attacks.
This is assuming halberds, they take the same damage with great weapons but put out more damage.

3+ ward warshrines granting chosen 3+ ward saves to go with the 3+ ward saves the characters wandering about have......

Gradek
27-02-2012, 13:42
St4 attacks don't really cut it against that sort of unit sadly.
A horde of them throws out a maximum of 41 which averages just 2.28 wounds on those chosen.
They'll do about 8-9 wounds from half that in attacks.
This is assuming halberds, they take the same damage with great weapons but put out more damage.

3+ ward warshrines granting chosen 3+ ward saves to go with the 3+ ward saves the characters wandering about have......

And once again it is a very point expensive combo to pull off on a unit with any consistency (2 Warshrines + the Wailing Banner) and even then you still have about a 25% of getting stupidity for the rest of the game instead of the ward save.

Also (and I will keep pointing this out), the easiest fix (without complete nerfing) is to simply not allow FotG from re-rolling a valid result on the EotG table (ie you cannot move from a valid result to one you would have to re-roll).

theunwantedbeing
27-02-2012, 13:53
And once again it is a very point expensive combo to pull off on a unit with any consistency (2 Warshrines + the Wailing Banner) and even then you still have about a 25% of getting stupidity for the rest of the game instead of the ward save.
Cost doesn't matter given how durable the unit is.
Points denial isn't a fun way to play warhammer.


Also (and I will keep pointing this out), the easiest fix (without complete nerfing) is to simply not allow FotG from re-rolling a valid result on the EotG table (ie you cannot move from a valid result to one you would have to re-roll).

I like that, I would prefer to just alter the wording of the FotG ability to only work on EotG rolls gained from killing characters and large targets though.
That way it doesn't work at all on Chosen or Warshrine effects.

Gradek
27-02-2012, 15:15
Cost doesn't matter given how durable the unit is.
Points denial isn't a fun way to play warhammer.



I like that, I would prefer to just alter the wording of the FotG ability to only work on EotG rolls gained from killing characters and large targets though.
That way it doesn't work at all on Chosen or Warshrine effects.

However, FotG is what makes the EotG table even remotely useful (and thus warshrines useful). Without access to FotG for units, I simply cannot see warshrines ever seeing the table. Couple that with how rare it is for a character to ever get a roll on the EotG table and you might as well scrap it entirely (which I wouldn't like). I think the only fix is to just limit re-rolls, which really does stop the abuse.

The Low King
27-02-2012, 15:40
And once again it is a very point expensive combo to pull off on a unit with any consistency (2 Warshrines + the Wailing Banner) and even then you still have about a 25% of getting stupidity for the rest of the game instead of the ward save.

Cant you change the result the next turn if you want?You should have that combo sorted by the time you reach combat. I can pay far more for units that are much weaker.....compared to a lot of things it isnt really that expensive.

Also, Oh noes, stupidity on LD9 reroll......

Gradek
27-02-2012, 15:46
Cant you change the result the next turn if you want?You should have that combo sorted by the time you reach combat. I can pay far more for units that are much weaker.....compared to a lot of things it isnt really that expensive.

Also, Oh noes, stupidity on LD9 reroll......

Sure, you can roll again next turn, but if you eliminate the re-roll, the odds don't change by much and you risk the shrines in the meantime. Simply put, without the moving a valid result to a re-roll, the odds are actually not good at all that you would get the ward save in any game.

The Low King
27-02-2012, 15:50
Sure, you can roll again next turn, but if you eliminate the re-roll, the odds don't change by much and you risk the shrines in the meantime. Simply put, without the moving a valid result to a re-roll, the odds are actually not good at all that you would get the ward save in any game.

25% x 25% x 25% (3 turns before combat) normally seems a pretty small chance of getting stupidity.....especially when you have two warshrines.


Yeah, remove the reroll and it becomes a lot more balanced and the mark will become a lot less used on infantry units (without shields)

lukas721
27-02-2012, 15:54
I think 1 gift per unit make no uber-units possible, chosen start with gift even with reroll don't make ward 100% possible and warshrines don't give anything to chosen so no more 2xshrines + chosen combo.

Snake1311
27-02-2012, 17:05
I don't see what the problem is with getting stupidity. You can't reroll it, but the next turn you can stop it by recasting the buff with the shrine.

Gradek
27-02-2012, 17:16
I don't see what the problem is with getting stupidity. You can't reroll it, but the next turn you can stop it by recasting the buff with the shrine.

No you can't. The EotG table makes it clear that stupidity is for the remainder of the game.

warhammero
27-02-2012, 18:53
Ok stupidity. A lidership test on 9 with reroll. Doesnt seem really bad. Thats the price for 3+ ward save in all the models of my best unit. I always pay for.

What else.

Any unit with ward save of 3+ is Op. Its ok for a heroe. But a unit of 25 - 30 héroes is to much.

Any unit in the game with 3+ ws is Op.

Goblins 3+ ws
Slaves skavens 3+ ws

Even the worst unit of the game knoblars.

lukas721
27-02-2012, 20:32
Yea, but don't compare Chosen to other coz price make it ridiculous, 100 Night Goblins with 3+ WS ?
Making 1 god gift per unit make end of this kind deathstar, but other factions have some nasty combinations like in DE army, WC will have new book 2012/2013, so you can deal with it like less than year if all come true :P

warhammero
29-02-2012, 02:15
That's the point, even if we play 25-30 goblins with 3+ ws vs 25-30 normal WoC Its Op. That's the real problem. But like you say Its one or two years jajaja

Havock
29-02-2012, 09:37
I wouldn't mind EotG going away entirely and the Warshrine being a passive 'be within X inch to recieve effect'-thing. Varying effects per mark.

If it also brings the points cost down a bit I am fine with that (we pay a premium on our combat characters for it)

Gromdal
29-02-2012, 11:10
That is a great idea.

Snake1311
29-02-2012, 14:18
Agree.

EotG is designed for characters, using it on units feels tacked on, and can get glitched pretty easily with favour, terror banner, etc etc.

lukas721
29-02-2012, 16:39
Combining all with GW policy to sell more they will make WoC weaker and points cuts to buy and use more minis, coz let's face it, we (WoC players) can make army with so low number of models +horde 8th edition that in new book we will have bigger WoC armies, we will still be elite coz bigger bases makes sure we will stay elite.
EotG going away makes Chosen, Shrines pointless, I think EotG will stay but will be redone, hope they give other than EotG reroll to Valkia or make her cheaper :P
...but all above is one aspect, I'm more curious about marks after new book, coz this is where it makes difference :P

AlphariusOmegon20
29-02-2012, 17:17
I think everyone here is missing the big point. It's not the Chosen 3+ ward/Stubborn that you can get that's the issue. By itself, it's not that big of a deal.

MoT itself isn't even the problem here. By itself, it's not that big of a deal. You still only have a 1/3rd chance of passing your ward save, and considering the plethora of no armor save magic out there, a lot of armies do need ward saves, especially those elite armies that use few models.

It's the pre-game re-rolling idiocy that ensures it, paired up with FotG, that is the big problem. In other words, it's the FAQ that allows this mess, combined with a pair of particular magic items, that's the issue in this case.

Take away FotG, the problem ceases to exist to be a common issue. You're back to a dice roll and luck to get the 12 result.

Fix the FAQ and no longer allow the re-roll silliness, it really ceases to be an issue at all.

GotrekFan
29-02-2012, 18:13
I think everyone here is missing the big point. It's not the Chosen 3+ ward/Stubborn that you can get that's the issue. By itself, it's not that big of a deal.

MoT itself isn't even the problem here. By itself, it's not that big of a deal. You still only have a 1/3rd chance of passing your ward save, and considering the plethora of no armor save magic out there, a lot of armies do need ward saves, especially those elite armies that use few models.

It's the pre-game re-rolling idiocy that ensures it, paired up with FotG, that is the big problem. In other words, it's the FAQ that allows this mess, combined with a pair of particular magic items, that's the issue in this case.

Take away FotG, the problem ceases to exist to be a common issue. You're back to a dice roll and luck to get the 12 result.

Fix the FAQ and no longer allow the re-roll silliness, it really ceases to be an issue at all.

Amen brother:)


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Havock
29-02-2012, 18:27
EotG can be 'dumbed down' pretty effectively, speed it up and still gain benefits. Simply make it non-stackable stat boosts and magic resistance or something.

zak
29-02-2012, 18:44
Have to agree with Alpharius. The FAQ for the Warshrine is a joke - like many of their strange decisions in the FAQ's.

vinush
29-02-2012, 19:04
The problem is the issue of scale with the mark. It costs the same for 10 models as it does for 80 to have the mark. I think it maybe should have been an increase per model, like upgrading to Orc biguns or inner circle knights does, then that may be better. Also, as others have said, making it so you can't adjust to a reroll.

THE \/ince

AlphariusOmegon20
01-03-2012, 04:38
Have to agree with Alpharius. The FAQ for the Warshrine is a joke - like many of their strange decisions in the FAQ's.

LOL thank you.

I like to cut through the B.S. bitching and figure out why something is so screwed up. At that point you have an idea of how to fix it.


The problem is the issue of scale with the mark. It costs the same for 10 models as it does for 80 to have the mark. I think it maybe should have been an increase per model, like upgrading to Orc biguns or inner circle knights does, then that may be better.

THE \/ince

That's really not much of an issue either. Yeah, it would be nice if it did increase in cost based on unit size, but it's still manageable as it stands.

Cut to the heart of the matter and you'll find the problem, i.e. the FAQ allowing the re-roll silliness. Without that, I seriously doubt many people would complain about Chosen like they do now.