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View Full Version : Switching armies- Possible Tournament Scenario



AM1640
21-02-2012, 19:39
Hi, just wondering what people would think if you were at a tournament and , maybe the third round, game scenario was to switch armies and play your opponent's army instead of the one you brought in a straight up pitched battle. We will assume everyone has washed their hands and is really careful, but would you be cool with it? Would you hate it? Has this happened to you? Knowing in advance would you bring a more balanced fluffy army seeing as you might have to play against it?

TheOneHawk
21-02-2012, 19:42
What happens if during the game your opponent accidentally drops a model you've spend 30 hours converting and painting and it breaks?

BigbyWolf
21-02-2012, 19:48
What happens if during the game your opponent accidentally drops a model you've spend 30 hours converting and painting and it breaks?

Assuming he apologises, I'd accept the apology and get on with the game. Accidents happen.

Lord Inquisitor
21-02-2012, 19:58
I think I'd be cool with it. I am not too precious with my models. It'd be interesting to say the least. I've never tried it, but I've heard of a tournament where the game size was relatively small and each round you'd play TWO games against the same opponent, one with your army and one with your opponent's. Rather clever way of "comping" the event.

IcedCrow
21-02-2012, 20:05
I would love to see the results of said tournament =)

Artiee
21-02-2012, 20:32
Thats funny.. I was actually thinking about doing that with a same number of players, 10 at the most. I was thinking about ways to stop full crappy armys builds. One way was each rolls a D6. If the differance was 4+, then you play your own army.

Bodysnatcher
21-02-2012, 20:49
Call it the Changeling scenario ;)

The Low King
21-02-2012, 21:29
I would love to do it, it is always interesting to play against something youve created. Good for testing aswell.

Feefait
21-02-2012, 22:25
Out gaming group does this from time to time. Everyone makes a list or two and then drops them in a hat. e play 2 rounds and switch in between. You cannot play your own army and cannot use the same list twice. It's a blast.

bluemage
22-02-2012, 00:01
I know accidents happen and what not but I'd rather not let strangers use my army.

Anyways I did play in a store event where you played two games against each opponent 1 with each army. The problem with that event was that they used bunch of random scenarios from some book that really screwed over a certain armies. One round for me was WE vs WoC where if you marched wearing army your movement would be permanently reduced, it wasn't even a close. My other problem with the event was that you played with your army first and then switched armies combined with making it a win-loss-draw statistic instead of a 20 point spread. So I would end up tabling my opponents terrible lists, and then do much better with their armies than they did in the second game, only getting a minor loss. However for the event a lose was a lose.

Lord Dan
22-02-2012, 00:35
What prevents your opponent from intentionally making stupid decisions for the first 3 turns knowing that you're switching armies for the end of the game?

I think it's cool, though I feel the switch should be something you roll for every turn. This way you could potentially switch back turn 6, which would make tanking one army in particular a bad decision. I have to admit though, I'd be sort of pissed if this was a tournament scenario.

reddevil18
22-02-2012, 02:48
Lord dan they dont mean turns unless ive missed something.
They mean rounds in the torny meaning each round is a new game.

Lord Dan
22-02-2012, 03:13
Oh, I understand now. Much better.

vcassano
22-02-2012, 10:32
In theory, I like the idea though I feel it would work best if the TO provided the armies for all players. If I bring the army I paint, that has the models and the characters that I like, with the personal history that I have of them, to not play them would be disappointing to me.

tmarichards
22-02-2012, 11:18
I've seen this proposed and used at a couple of UK events, but personally it doesn't really appeal to me. Part of paying out a large amount of money to go to an event is to get all the games in with the army I've spent a load of time building and painting and so on. Having someone else use my army just doesn't really appeal to me.

Not to say it's a bad idea, just that it's not my cup of tea.

Lord Dan
23-02-2012, 03:01
I've seen this proposed and used at a couple of UK events, but personally it doesn't really appeal to me. Part of paying out a large amount of money to go to an event is to get all the games in with the army I've spent a load of time building and painting and so on. Having someone else use my army just doesn't really appeal to me.

Not to say it's a bad idea, just that it's not my cup of tea.

That pretty much sums up my feelings as well, Tom- I wouldn't want to be shortchanged because I drew someone else's themed Bretonnian peasant list. I really don't feel this scenario has a place in a tournament setting, though in casual games it sounds like a neat change of pace.

Spider-pope
23-02-2012, 18:14
It's not something i'd personally like. If only because in such a situation i guarantee i would be the person who accidentally drops my opponents prized miniature, to see it shatter on the floor, only for my opponent to tell me it was a limited edition, 200 model from Forge World bought for him by his Grandfather, who died soon after from a horrific illness and that it was his last remaining memento of the man.

Confessor_Atol
23-02-2012, 18:52
I used to run tournaments for a game store, and we tried this exact thing waaaay back in 5th ed. It seemes like a really good idea but didn't turn out so well. Most people don't know rules to other armies, much less all armies. Then you have the argumets about touching other people's stuff. This was frowned upon by nearly everyone.

Phazael
23-02-2012, 19:03
Our event ran this scenario (I called it Mirror Universe as a Tzeench themed scenario) and we are doing it again this year. Both times we gave people the option to not swap armies, but they lost out on bonus points if they did. A lot of people complained about it leading up to the event, but ultimately more than half of the room agreed to the swap, including the guy who went on to claim best general that year. I think the idea has merrit, but people need lots of warning and it has to be handled carefully with a viable option for people not to do it (in our event's case, agreeing to the switch was worth 4 of 20 battle points, whether the opponent agreed or not) if they are concerned about their models or an insecure power gamer. Everyone who did it really loved it and I got a lot of positive feadback on it.

Drongol
23-02-2012, 20:38
Personally, I would not attend an event that included such a stipulation, and if it were sprung on me without warning, I would pack up my models and leave.

I'm being dead serious. I did not spend hours converting, painting, and sealing my models for someone else to push them around, break my conversions, and suchlike. And I certainly didn't go through all that trouble so that I could play with someone else's grey plastic army.

It's not even about the monetary issue. It's about the time involved fixing any breakages and paint jobs. My army. My models. I'll touch them, thank you very much. ;)

The Low King
23-02-2012, 20:44
Even if someone broke one of my models i would be fine if they appologised. These things happen, its called life, and being overly protective of my models kind of defeats the purpose of making them look so nice in the first place (to show them off).

Drongol
23-02-2012, 20:55
Even if someone broke one of my models i would be fine if they appologised. These things happen, its called life, and being overly protective of my models kind of defeats the purpose of making them look so nice in the first place (to show them off).

Accidental breakages happen and that's fine and understandable. However, that doesn't mean that I want to give my entire army over to someone whole hog. That's just asking for multiple accidents.

The Low King
23-02-2012, 20:59
Depends. If the army is sitting on the table on your nice magnetic movement trays how often is there going to be an opportunity to break them? Most people will be extra careful with other peoples models.

Lord Inquisitor
23-02-2012, 21:13
Meh, breakages happen. I'd be annoyed if someone didn't take proper care but most of the time that's unlikely to be the case. I've had opponents accidentally knock models off the table and even on one memorable occasion sit on a whole unit of converted chaos space marines I'd just finished. (In that case it was worth the repair work to see his face when that happened!)

But yeah, obviously it'd have to be made very clear before the tournament and not sprung on anyone.

Beastlord
23-02-2012, 21:26
When we used to play LOTR this is how we'd do it - play a scenario, then swap. Personally I think its perfect for tournements if you're using a points system, as it irons out the disparities in book power etc and makes the whole thing just about how good a general you are.

Petey
23-02-2012, 21:55
As a one off game, and I knew about it before hand, I think I would be ok with it. I don't like the thought of penalizing people for not doing it though. Perhaps a better idea for that tournament it s higher cap of achievable SP during that game, if you took the other army

The Low King
23-02-2012, 22:04
Why dont you like the idea? a tournament is about demonstrating skill (for those who set out to win anyway). Winning with an army other than your own further demonstrates that.

Petey
23-02-2012, 22:28
Why dont you like the idea? a tournament is about demonstrating skill (for those who set out to win anyway). Winning with an army other than your own further demonstrates that.

Sure, and I'm ok with that as a concept. But penalizing me for not doing it leaves a bad taste in a player's mouth. Like I'm being penalized for using my own stuff. If I were given a potential bonus (ie I have to earn it in game) for using the other guy's army, and could do potentially better if I used his while being a better general, that would have appeal.
Further however, not being familiar with an army, what if I forget to use a special rule, or power because I don't know I have it. That's not skill, that's really not playing in the game at all (after all, my troops wouldn't forget they could use razor sharp swords or breath fire, even if I did), and some players wouldn't have the courtesy to tell you that you forgot a rule or didn't know a thing.
It needs to be up front, the players need to be informed, and they need to be able to play without penalty. Otherwise, teh tourney organizer has failed.

The Low King
23-02-2012, 22:34
Whats the difference between haveing a penalty if you refuse to swap and having a bonus if you accept swapping? both will result in the same points difference.

Lord Dan
23-02-2012, 23:43
It's mostly psychological, but its the difference between penalizing someone and not rewarding someone.

Petey
24-02-2012, 04:24
Whats the difference between haveing a penalty if you refuse to swap and having a bonus if you accept swapping? both will result in the same points difference.

In this case, the penalty was inflicted on the non compliant player, in my example, the compliant player had a higher potential VP total (not free points, just that he could earn more with his opponent's army than if he just used his). This means that average players still get average rewards, poor generals get little rewards, but good generals can get more points with the other army (potentially) or make sure they do well with the army that they trust and know to work.

Jind_Singh
24-02-2012, 06:12
Not my cup of tea for an actual tournament setting - for a friendly I might do it - just seems too awkward for a tournament - playing with a new army isn't easy - and not enjoyable - a lot of the time as you have no idea what anything does/is!!!

Besides, it takes me a long time to get an army ready for an event - and I'm emotionally invested in my army - I really do want to use it for the 2 days (or however long the event is) of the tournament - as that's what motivated me to build and paint the army.

Also there's a reason I collect the armies that I do - I like them! If I liked other armies I'd have collected them to - so there is a good chance I'll have to play a game with an army I don't like - could you imagine if I had to use POINTY HEADED ELVES OF ANY KIND!!

I mean - I would have to wear gloves during the game and then wash my hands with bleach afterwards!!!

Not to mention new dice, measuring tape, etc. Oh - and new eyes - as I'd have to tear out my own eyes from having to read an elf source book for the duration of a game!! My poor Gobbos would never trust me ever again!

AM1640
24-02-2012, 16:04
Not my cup of tea for an actual tournament setting - for a friendly I might do it - just seems too awkward for a tournament - playing with a new army isn't easy - and not enjoyable - a lot of the time as you have no idea what anything does/is!!!

Besides, it takes me a long time to get an army ready for an event - and I'm emotionally invested in my army - I really do want to use it for the 2 days (or however long the event is) of the tournament - as that's what motivated me to build and paint the army.

Also there's a reason I collect the armies that I do - I like them! If I liked other armies I'd have collected them to - so there is a good chance I'll have to play a game with an army I don't like - could you imagine if I had to use POINTY HEADED ELVES OF ANY KIND!!

I mean - I would have to wear gloves during the game and then wash my hands with bleach afterwards!!!

Not to mention new dice, measuring tape, etc. Oh - and new eyes - as I'd have to tear out my own eyes from having to read an elf source book for the duration of a game!! My poor Gobbos would never trust me ever again!

Ha, Well this would really help support the seeing eye gnoblar industry and the Hob goblin bleach manufacturer union, but yes I do see your point. I was trying to come up with methods of balancing (comping) amries that people bring to tournaments and also to try and create a unique gaming experience rather than the *everyone make a super powerful point in direction of opponent and win after 4 battleline games* scene that seems so prevalent. I wonder if people would just prefer slightly different scenarios such as your 50% of your army must reach the otherside of the table or tryand hold these three key pieces of terrain, ooh wait what about a king of the table where players roll off, high roll chooses to attack or defend. Defender sets up whole army in the middle of the table. The attacker gets a third of his army at start to come from either or both short board edges, then another third at start of turn 2 from any table edge, again at turn 3. Attacker gets first turn on 1-5.
What you you call your condition Jind, is it Elfphobia, Ulthuaniosis, or is there an essential vitamin Green in the OnG book that I have somehow missed.

Jind_Singh
24-02-2012, 18:31
LOL!!!

True that!! Best way to create a balanced environment for an event I found is:

1) Ban special characters - while for the MOST part a lot of them are just fine, there are the few scum who break the game still - so a blanket ban is ideal.

2) Use the standard missions from the BRB - DO NOT use the Watch Tower! Instead have an objective center of table and whoever holds it gets the extra VPs for that battle (300 vp is fine)

3) Secondary objectives - that compliment the main game like yin & yan...i.e. if the game is blood & glory have a secondary game that promotes something outside of taking banners/generals/bsbs. The secondary objective awards overall points to the players tournament score - so if a win is 15pts, a draw is 10pts, and loss is 7pts, make the secondary objective add 6pts (or to that effect)

4) Comp scores - these ultimately are a grey area - the events I've been to seem to work out - i.e. people score in a fair fashion - but it's subjective.

5) Ideally the Tournament organizers should have some kind of points deductions for certain things:

e.g. Empire - takes a steam tank - no worries. Takes TWO steam Tanks... -5pts to the players overall score
Dark Elves - unkillable Dreadlord -5pts to overall score

etc, etc

But the issue is that the list would need to be very exhaustive and fair - it would be a project to make such a list

Lord Inquisitor
24-02-2012, 18:46
I don't want to turn this into a comp discussion, but a few comments. However I think the best way a "switching armies" event is if both players play each scenario twice, once with each army. That's balanced.


1) Ban special characters - while for the MOST part a lot of them are just fine, there are the few scum who break the game still - so a blanket ban is ideal.
:wtf: I'm sorry, did you just say that there are only a "few" special characters (maybe 3-4 out of hundreds) so the best way to deal with it is a blanket ban? How does that make sense?

It's like saying "well, I think the Chaos Dwarf Destroyer, Abomb and Steam Tank are overpowered so I think that banning all Rares is the fairest solution."


But the issue is that the list would need to be very exhaustive and fair - it would be a project to make such a list
Such lists exist, like the swedish comp system. If you're interested I'll dig up a copy but I can't find it right now.

However, no comp system is perfect. The mirror-match format is perhaps the most balanced system possible.

Gorbad Ironclaw
24-02-2012, 20:22
However, no comp system is perfect. The mirror-match format is perhaps the most balanced system possible.

I don't know, that's sort of assuming that all lists are created equal and I don't think they are. Not in terms of power level but in terms of how easy they are to pick up and play. Some lists are just a lot more complicated to use and requires a lot more practice to get your head around than others.

Lord Inquisitor
24-02-2012, 22:38
I don't know, that's sort of assuming that all lists are created equal and I don't think they are. Not in terms of power level but in terms of how easy they are to pick up and play. Some lists are just a lot more complicated to use and requires a lot more practice to get your head around than others.

Meh, as long as you make people play with their own army first, your opponent should be able to see all the tricks it has. Sure a lot will depend on how well you can adjust and adopt their army style - but that's what I'd call "skill".

There is nevertheless absolute equality in the forces on the table, averaged over the two games. No comp system can boast that.