PDA

View Full Version : Orcs vs Gobbos: Who would win?



Oogie boogie boss
28-02-2012, 10:47
Having just been commenting on the thread debating the rules of list changing in friendly games, Urgat (that well known greeny officianado) mentioned how he has several relatively fixed all comers lists, some are gobbo only and some are Orc only. This got me to thinking, whilst you see a lot of all gobbo/NG lists, you very rarely se all-orc lists.

I then started thinking about who would win if those two came up against each other. So i thought i'd put it to the floor, as it were, and see what you all think. Would it be the big greenies, or the little greenies?

ElBeaver
28-02-2012, 11:47
Would love to see this battle with lady luck taking a huge dump on the battlefield: failed animosity rolls all over and all warmachines missfiring :D

Col. Dash
28-02-2012, 11:50
I think gobbos would win. They have the numbers and hard hitting unit extras to hurt the orcs pretty bad. A few mangler squigs, rock lobbas, doom divas, fanatics, netters, and skulkers would hurt any orc units.

Oogie boogie boss
28-02-2012, 14:53
I should point out that units such as Trolls, Giants, and maybe Rock Lobbas IF they have an Orc bully could go in either force.

Col. Dash
28-02-2012, 15:23
I was sticking to a pure force and not the extra guys.

Malorian
28-02-2012, 15:33
In a truely competitive situation it either would be a tie (orcs can't kill night goblins fast enough) or an unlucky leadership break would swing it one way or the other, and being that orcs will be winning combat (forcing more LD tests on the goblins) the orcs win out.

Urgat
28-02-2012, 15:56
With arachnaroks, more charriots, squigs and so on, I wouldn't be so sure the orcs would win more combats, and that's not counting stuff like adding big bosses everywhere. The goblins can have both steadfast AND punch, so I wouldn't bet on orcs having the edge.
In short: I don't know.

Leogun_91
28-02-2012, 16:24
I think the goblins would win, but either would lose to a mixed army.

Oogie boogie boss
28-02-2012, 16:24
For my mind, Orcs pack more punch across the board, especially SO and BO. Those units alone are going to cause a LOT of casualties, and whilst the gobbos have a lot of hard hitting units (Arok, Wolf Chariots, Squigs, etc) it think the Orcs would be too strong all round. It would be close though. A few rolls here and there could make a big difference.....

Leogun_91
28-02-2012, 16:31
For my mind, Orcs pack more punch across the board, especially SO and BO. Those units alone are going to cause a LOT of casualties, and whilst the gobbos have a lot of hard hitting units (Arok, Wolf Chariots, Squigs, etc) it think the Orcs would be too strong all round. It would be close though. A few rolls here and there could make a big difference.....Don't forget that goblins are more than able to put fighty characters in all their units, more than one if they make it a priority, a goblin character might not have overly impressive stats but enough to take down one or two a round of even the elite orcs, which together with the sheer number of the unit that guards them makes the goblins hard to take down. For as long as the goblins can keep the steadfast going they don't need to kill an equal amount to win in the end.

Jind_Singh
28-02-2012, 16:50
Yer all fools if yer fink da big fat orcs can beats us - da true kings of da Greenskins!!!


GOBLINS!! GOBLINS FOR THE WIN!!!

All Goblins, all da Time!!! Gobbos in an even points match will kick the orcs to the other side of the moon, let us assume:

Orcs get:

Giants
All breeds of trolls
Boar Chariot
Boar Boys

Gobbos get:

Squig Herds
Mangler Squigs
Squig Hoppers
Snotlings
Snotling Pump Wagons
Arachnarok Spider
Warmachines
Wolf Chariots

Orcs are tougher, stronger, better trained - but we will still destroy them by the handful!!! we Gobbos get:

1) Numbers
2) Better toys
3) Sneaky tricks
4) Better magic (vs Orcs anyway) Our lore will hinder the orcs faster than they hinder us

We will smash them to kingdom come!!!

Snorky_the_goblin
28-02-2012, 16:53
I think it's a draw because the comp is asking wether Gork or Mork is the greates diety.

BTW The trolls can stomp em all.

Oogie boogie boss
28-02-2012, 16:54
Lol, i was wondering how long it would take you to get excited by this Jind. Is anyone planning on putting this question to the test?

Malorian
28-02-2012, 17:16
Why do I get the feeling that I need to make my way out to Vancouver for an Orc vs Goblin game... ;)

(If I get the training course I asked for I'm totally going to take you up on this :D)

Oogie boogie boss
28-02-2012, 17:24
If you do, let us know how it goes. The green gods demand sacrifice!

Urgat
28-02-2012, 17:36
BTW The trolls can stomp em all.
Especially the warseer variety :p


Why do I get the feeling that I need to make my way out to Vancouver for an Orc vs Goblin game... ;)

(If I get the training course I asked for I'm totally going to take you up on this :D)

Well I was going to say that there's only one true way to find out and any orc champion would be welcome to try my gobs if they wanted to drop by :p Guess Vancouver's easier to reach than Paris from Alberta, though.

Leogun_91
28-02-2012, 19:14
Snotlings
Snotling Pump WagonsNow wait a minute....snotlings are not goblins, the armybook fluff also says that orcs like them and goblins don't so they certainly don't fit better in an all goblin army than an all orc army (maybe thematically but not fluffwise). Either both goblins and orcs get them or neither.

Oogie boogie boss
28-02-2012, 19:48
I leave that up to those play testing this theory.....

Makaber
28-02-2012, 20:03
Generally speaking I think the Gobbos would be able to field the more effective force (on paper at least), but would also be a lot more prone to collapsing spectacularly, with unreliable units and low Leadership all around. Would be a fun experiment, though. I honetly don't know.

Jind_Singh
28-02-2012, 20:19
Give the snots to the orcs - I don't use them anyway!!

MAL!!!

YOU ARE ON!!!!!

NO MERCY, NO PRISONERS!!!!

Awilla the Hun
28-02-2012, 22:35
It is of course self-evident in the view of Comrade Von Stahl that the goblin bourgeoisie will ultimately triumph over the warmongering warlord-militarism of the Orcs due to their comparatively great and innovative mastery of machinery and cunning triumphing over the limited and inferior Orcish intellect. They shall then in turn be overthrown by the true greenskin Proletariat, the Snotlings. Together, Comrades, the workers shall march to victory!

Jind_Singh
29-02-2012, 01:36
Pff!!! The orcs have too many inherent weaknesses - they would crumble to a well led gobbo list:

In close combat we trump them thanks to netters, Nasty Skulkers, more characters, MORE NUMBERS, Squig Herds (Even Squig Hoppers)

In the arms race we smash them as the Orcs have NO WARMACHINES (And to be fair to my opponent I won't take any either - just 2 spear chukkas)

We have distraction units

We gots it all!!

2500 points - I'm taking my all Goblin list I use each and every game - and there isn't an orc Player out there who can beat me - THERE, SAID IT!!!!

Oogie boogie boss
29-02-2012, 07:51
You know what they say, jind: 'Pride cometh before a choppa in the face'.

Jind_Singh
29-02-2012, 08:02
IN the words of MC Gobbo...

"Can't chop this"

(As in MC Hammer, Can't Touch this!)

Oogie boogie boss
29-02-2012, 09:40
'When the fist hits your eye and you think you might cry, that's animosity...' (To the tune of Dean Martin's 'That's Amore')

Artinam
29-02-2012, 10:12
Oogie Boogie Boss, consider that line sigged ;).

Malorian
29-02-2012, 15:38
2500 points - I'm taking my all Goblin list I use each and every game - and there isn't an orc Player out there who can beat me - THERE, SAID IT!!!!

This would be my standard all orc list at 2500:

Lvl 4 savage orc great shaman w/ shrunken head, fencers blades

Orc big boss BSB w/ silvered steal, great weapon

40 savage orc big uns w/ extra choppa, banner
50 shield orcs w/ banner
50 shield orcs w/ banner
20 arrer boyz

40 black orcs w/ banner, flaming banner
5 savage orc boar boyz w/ shield
Boar chariot
Boar chariot


One thing we could do right away is something like OnceBitten and I did were we have a game through pictures or skype. Either one of us could host it as I'm sure we each have enough models for both armies :)

dementian
29-02-2012, 15:41
Ok I want to see this battle happening!

Make it so! And I want it televised.

Malorian
29-02-2012, 15:52
Anyone know of any orc/goblin scenario? Maybe from an old white dwarf or something?

Glenn87
29-02-2012, 16:50
I'd say, fluffwise gobbo's would win.
Gobbo's are much more 'tactical', and smart where Orcs would probally just go WAAAGH!! storm forward!!

Also, depends on wich Gobbo's, I'm sure that all of the Orcs would be able to enslave the normal gobbo's, but they'll lose out in the mountains against the NG's or in the forests of the FG's.

vinush
29-02-2012, 18:59
Gobbos. I've witnessed first hand how disproportionately destructive they are for their points compared to orcs. Especially towards other greenskins (well, my own greenskins who are allegedly on their own side).

I once (way back in 4th or possibly even 3rd edition) had three fanatics tear their way through a unit of 20 black orcs and leave only the standard bearer behind. He valiantly (or stupidly) passed his ld test and then got wiped out by one on the way back.

Nets under current edition effectively neuter the benefit of choppas, they have sneaky gits, they have spiders, wolves, war machines and all sorts of crazy things like that, coupled with being able to double or more the number of troops you take for the points, coupled with really cheap characters means they can dish out the hurt better than orc can, softening them up before they get close with some really good, really cheap war machines and the cheap hordes of bow armed gobbos hiding fanatics.

THE \/ince

Jind_Singh
29-02-2012, 19:29
My standard list for the tournament was:

Goblin Warboss, armour of destiny, great axe, ironcurse icon
Night Goblin Warboss, Stunty basha, armour of fortune, shield
Night Goblin Great Shaman, level 4, Dragonbane Gem

Goblin Big Boss, BSB, light armour & shield, Spider Banner
Night Goblin Big Boss, enchanted shield & spear, Giant Squig
Night Goblin Big Boss, Great Axe

45 Common Goblins, full command, bows & shields (Goblin Warboss & BSB here)
48 Night Goblins, full command, hand weapons & Shields, netters, 1 fanatic (Night Goblin Warboss & Big Boss here)
49 Night Goblins, full command, spears & Shields, netters, 1 fanatic (Night Goblin Great Shaman here)
5 Spider Riders, bows

15 Squigs, 10 Herders
5 Squig Hoppers
Goblin Wolf Chariot
Goblin Wolf Chariot
Spear Chukka
Spear Chukka

Arachnarok Spider
Giant
Mangler Squig
Pump Wagon


And I'll use it again to show you upptiy gits once and for all that Gobobs are cool, Orc boyz just drool!!

Mallo
29-02-2012, 19:41
Give the snots to the orcs - I don't use them anyway!!




My standard list for the tournament was:


Pump Wagon




Busted! We see you sneaking snotling's in to your list! :D

But anyway, Goblins would win over orc's anyday. I have not read this years White dwarfs yet, but have then in a stack but wondering if they have included the greenskins in the Civil war rules.


Ok I want to see this battle happening!

Make it so! And I want it televised.

I'd like to see this too. This would be the best thing on TV since...well, there's never anything good on television!

Malorian
29-02-2012, 20:24
The orc list seems stronger, but you never know with Jind... he's sneaky... like a goblin!

Jind_Singh
29-02-2012, 20:42
"Sneaking? Sneaking? Poor Gobbos just helping and you call me names and say we's sneaking!!!"

"Sorry Gobbo, what was you doing?"

"SNEAKING!"

Jind_Singh
29-02-2012, 20:43
I think that this can only be settled in one way - a battle royale - either a virtual battle with telephoned instructions OR an actual face-to-face game - either way we need to make this happen and settle this argument once and for all - as for lists, I can drop the pump wagon - he was just in there for the 2500 point tournament - and because he's custom made.

vinush
29-02-2012, 20:45
I think we should allow the pump wagon. Them brutish orcses have been picking on the smaller greenskins for some time, so it was only a matter of time before they banded together...

THE \/ince

Malorian
29-02-2012, 20:47
Meh, if you knock out the snotlings then you might as well knock out the giant, and I'd hate to see Jind cry ;)

Do you have Skype Jind?

Only unit I don't own from your list is the bow/shield goblins.

Leogun_91
29-02-2012, 21:40
I'd say, fluffwise gobbo's would win.
Gobbo's are much more 'tactical', and smart where Orcs would probally just go WAAAGH!! storm forward!!Common orcs, yes. Black Orcs are however the most tactical and disciplined of the greenskins, they came up with the winning strategy of bashing others to restore order (rather than bashing them for fun when all hell breaks lose as both goblins and orcs do).

Agoz
01-03-2012, 01:28
You could always do the battle using photoshop like the ogre stronghold does, or use universal battle, might be a bit easier.

quietus1986
01-03-2012, 04:32
I think gobbo's atliest they do the job better than my orks for core with orks I would go all 'arger boys for there 7pnt. they have done more for me than my 2 handwp ork mob.

Glemigobles
01-03-2012, 09:09
As has been said before - orcs are...well orcs. Gobbos hold all the goodies in their hands. I always include an orc regiment in my armies but I think I'd manage without it (somehow...).
On the other hand Gobbos are delicate and that's the problem in mono gobbo lists against orcs. Even if you neutralize choppa with NG orcs still have 4T and 5+AS... this would be like fighting against an offensive dwarf player who fields 40 rangers with a than and charges your in 2 turn!
Melorian's list is tough for goblins. I think it's going to be a looong and boooring battle when it comes to HtH...

Jind_Singh
01-03-2012, 10:57
Pish!!

Close combat is where my army excels - how long did 40 Corsairs with additional hand weapons and a frenzy banner last against my Night Goblins? Not even ONE round!!!

Now granted I had also flanked the said unit with the Squig herd - but since the Squig herd also had Night Goblin herders it counts!!!

Greenskin armies excel when they bring into account the army book synergy - and the vast majority of the synergistic units belong....with the Goblin entries!!

In a straight up, one on one, fight:

Ws 3, T4, S3 (4)

Will cream:

Ws 2, T3, S3

But those Goblin Warbosses who do such things end up being snotling food!


Orcs will never get to re-roll to hit/wound if flanking an enemy unit - but Goblins can
Orcs will never get to have poisoned attacks - but Goblins can
Orcs will never have a reliable template vortex spell they can throw into combat - but Goblins do
Orcs will never have the ability to reduce the enemy strength in combat - but Goblins do
Orcs will never be able to deploy 'The Jind Singh Airbag' taktic- But Goblins do!!!!


Hands down we got our bigger cousins beat when it comes to sneaky tricks and traps - synergistic balls of green fury is what we are!!!

Oogie boogie boss
01-03-2012, 11:40
Goblins will never be able to get a god to jump on their enemies units- but Orcs can!
Goblins will never be able to teleport their biggest, baddest unit behind their enemy- but Orcs can!
Goblins will never get troops with 3 A, St 5 (round one) who are immune to psychology- but Orcs can!
Goblins will never have Ld 9- but Orcs can!
Goblins will never be able to make all their units in combat within 2D6 of a shaman re-roll their hits, flank or no- but Orcs can!

And, after all that, they're still up on WS, T, S (sometimes) and Ld.

Just playing devil's advocate. :p

Glemigobles
01-03-2012, 11:49
Goblins will never have Ld 9- but Orcs can!

Not really :) If you take gobbo warboss and a bsb with banner of discipline and put them together in one regiment then you have a 9ld general to care for your gobbo troops :)

Oogie boogie boss
01-03-2012, 12:37
Yeah, but that's effort. ;)

Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
01-03-2012, 15:07
I don't think that gobbos would win, I think gobbos would butcher a full orc army.

Morkash
01-03-2012, 15:40
Pah, those runty gitz would run away and cry like snots! Orcs bash 'em gud and proper!

Orkses never lose a battle. If we win, we win. And if we die, we die fightin' so it doesn't count! Orkses are da bestest!

(One could also play with the civil war rules, are they already released for O&G? Might be a nice addition! :D)

Oogie boogie boss
01-03-2012, 15:51
It's interesting that more people have voted for Orcs than for gobbos, but far more people have commented saying Gobbos would win. I guess the Orc fans are too busty off bashin' sum stunties!

Malorian
01-03-2012, 16:04
Exactly ;)

If you run the numbers the goblins win, they are just too point effective. BUT they lose every combat, so what it really comes down to is if the orcs can break through the lines and knock out the general/bsb, or if a goblin unit fails one of the many break tests even with the LD support.

quietus1986
01-03-2012, 16:04
No gobbo players need to paint way more models so there always behind there pc.

Sheena Easton
01-03-2012, 17:05
Goblins! :cool:

Urgat
01-03-2012, 21:22
It's interesting that more people have voted for Orcs than for gobbos, but far more people have commented saying Gobbos would win. I guess the Orc fans are too busty off bashin' sum stunties!
Actually I forgot to vote, and now that I have, it's a tie :p

Jind_Singh
01-03-2012, 21:36
EVERYBODY STOP VOTING!!!!

We have reached Greenskin Zen - there are exactly same number on either side - this is as good as it gets!!!!

Let's wait until Mal gets his big brutish green backside to my side of the World and we'll do it on the table top - complete with the most awesome and epic battle report afterwards - complete with audio, sound tracks - the lot!!!

Oogie boogie boss
02-03-2012, 07:54
Prove by doing. It's the Greenskin way!

Da_White_Orc
13-03-2012, 17:28
Not really :) If you take gobbo warboss and a bsb with banner of discipline and put them together in one regiment then you have a 9ld general to care for your gobbo troops :)

you can't use the general's ld if you take the banner of discipline

as jind said above, the key is synergy. not just between goblins and squigs, but between goblin rank and file and orc leadership too!

take a wyvern and your whole army has ld 9 anyway.

Urgat
13-03-2012, 18:12
you can't use the general's ld if you take the banner of discipline

As another unit. There, it's the general himself who's got his Ld boosted.

Da_White_Orc
13-03-2012, 18:31
As another unit. There, it's the general himself who's got his Ld boosted.

you got your rulebook handy? i thought the unit gets +1 ld but can NEVER use the general's leadership...

i'm sure you're right, as i saw that rule and just skipped right over the banner of discipline since it made it rubbish for my army under the interpretation I had. now, it seems a damn sight better. cheers

Urgat
14-03-2012, 07:03
Nope, I don't have the BRB handy sadly, but I remember raising the exact same question a while back (that it couldn't be used that way because you weren't allowed to use the general's Ld), and being proven wrong. I don't remember the exact way it works, though.

Jind_Singh
14-03-2012, 09:19
The unit with the banner CAN NOT use the Generals leadership for any reason - however ANY OTHER character inside the unit gets a buff to their leadership also!

SO if the unit has (e.g.)

50 Goblins (ld 6)
Goblin BSB (ld 7)
Goblin Warboss (ld 8)

The unit now becomes:

50 Goblins (ld 7)
Goblin BSB (ld 8)
Goblin Warboss (ld 9!!)

But the Goblin unit can not use the Warboss's leadership - they do get to use the ld 8 of the BSB though!! HOWEVER....the rest of the army gets to use the Generals leadership as normal....which is new a meaty NINE!!

HOWS DEESE APPLES HAY!

Orcs get one better - they become leadership 10 with an Orc Warboss!!!

Jind_Singh
14-03-2012, 09:21
Which is a good point as they can effectively be stubborn on ld 10 while the best we get as Gobbos is 8 - but lucky for me we'll be beating the Orcs in combat every round anyway!

If Warriors of Chaos can't beat my Lads in close combat...no one will! (Well actually the Warriors do indeed cream me in combat but that's now the point!)

The bearded one
14-03-2012, 09:39
Giving this one to the orcs. A horde of savage orc big 'uns or black orcs can put out so much hurt in a single round they might obliterate the steadfast of a goblin unit in one go. A horde of savage orc big 'uns against a unit of goblins 5 wide will inflict about 17 casualties in the first round.

Oogie boogie boss
14-03-2012, 09:39
Orcs is da best. Dere's no uvver git wot hits as hard as dem boys. Der Gobbos is wimps.

Urgat
14-03-2012, 09:58
Giving this one to the orcs. A horde of savage orc big 'uns or black orcs can put out so much hurt in a single round they might obliterate the steadfast of a goblin unit in one go. A horde of savage orc big 'uns against a unit of goblins 5 wide will inflict about 17 casualties in the first round.
What about as many points of goblins, full front rank being big bosses, and, depending on your preferences, netters (but I'll leave defending those to nighties lovers) or nasty skulkers?
Even w/o that, with just nasty skulkers and a champion, against that very fair 5 wide unit you granted them, at best, your orcs can allocate only 4 of them to regular gobs, everything else must be allocated to the skulkers and the champion. Making your first round of combat a big laugh for the common gobs :p (and there goes the choppa bonus, btw). No attacks at all on the RnF at all if there's a big boss. There is a big boss, why wouldn't there be a big boss? While the skulkers have ASF so will strike regardless and the RnF will do whatever they want. 17 casualties? Yeah sure :p Orcs hit hard, ok. But they are idiots, too :p
On a side note, if that scenario happened against me, you'd probably be in a very bad position, as it's exactly the purpose of my gobs, to sucker in such big and expensive units while my hitty, more mobile elements go wherever they want by virtue of most of the enemy points being stuck silly against gobs.

DaHobgoblin
14-03-2012, 10:02
Well this looks like the discussion for me. I have long wondered about this and have a real affection for strongly themed armies. As such I am hosting a mini tourney for a couple of mates in May where we intend to take a series of ethnically pure O&G armies at 1000 pts against each other. So our results won't reflect the discussions here as I plan on hamstringing the forces even further. Who will win between an army of pure Orcs (no savages, no Black orcs) vs an army of pure forest goblins (common goblins on foot count as forest goblins as per the classic figures of 4th ed). So I have a list of forces we intend to play off against each other, Orc, savage orc, Night goblin, forest goblin, wolf riders, Ard boyz (as per the SoC rule set) and ..... Snotlings (which have had to undergo significant house rules to bring them to par). There were originally plans to have common goblins, hobgoblins, gnoblars, and a bunhc of other more esoteric themes but time has rule away from us.
We also intend to have a mixed force to see how that compares. All armies are fluffy and low on magic tricks.

I'll post the results, but in some early practice games the 1000 pt orc army has actually proved to be pretty handy with the exception of the level 2 wizard that is rubbish :-)

The bearded one
14-03-2012, 10:25
What about as many points of goblins, full front rank being big bosses, and, depending on your preferences, netters (but I'll leave defending those to nighties lovers) or nasty skulkers?
Even w/o that, with just nasty skulkers and a champion, against that very fair 5 wide unit you granted them, at best, your orcs can allocate only 4 of them to regular gobs, everything else must be allocated to the skulkers and the champion. Making your first round of combat a big laugh for the common gobs :p (and there goes the choppa bonus, btw). No attacks at all on the RnF at all if there's a big boss. There is a big boss, why wouldn't there be a big boss? While the skulkers have ASF so will strike regardless and the RnF will do whatever they want. 17 casualties? Yeah sure :p Orcs hit hard, ok. But they are idiots, too :p
On a side note, if that scenario happened against me, you'd probably be in a very bad position, as it's exactly the purpose of my gobs, to sucker in such big and expensive units while my hitty, more mobile elements go wherever they want by virtue of most of the enemy points being stuck silly against gobs.

You can hold them up, but can you actually beat and destroy them? ;)

Urgat
14-03-2012, 10:56
You can hold them up, but can you actually beat and destroy them? ;)

Well, face it, the gobs will be way cheaper than that horde of big'uns, and they're both stuck for a while doing pretty much nothing (which is already a win/win situation for me). It means I have more points outside of that combat than you... you guess what comes next :p That's pretty much the only way to win with goblins, really, and when I lose, it's usually because I couldn't get the nasty horde of doom (or equivalent) stuck with the gobs in the first place (thank you animosity :p), so if it's already happened, odds are I'm already on the right track to victory ;) They only need to hold for one turn, really, to wait for the killy stuff to flank or clean what is around. The gobs themselves are not scary (well, my gobs with the skulkers, the big boss, the shields and the bows with the stand and shoot reaction do a decent job, in fact), sure, but goblin armies are full of things that hurt a lot (my river trolls, for starters). And since all my hitty stuff got cheaper with the new book (way more than for orcs), well, wheee. Now I'm not going to say mine's bigger than yours, but I'm pretty confident that it works, because, heck, it already did before 8th ed, and 8th ed pretty much doubled the efficiency of it (thank you steadfast). And not against orcs, but against chaos warriors. Chaos warriors are more scary than savage orcs :p. Of course, it's all internet babble, I wish I could demonstrate it first hand, because for all the goblin army talk on Warseer, to be honest, in "real life", I haven't seen a goblin army outside of my own, and people do tend to look down on my army (the first time).

The bearded one
14-03-2012, 11:13
how much does a savage big 'un cost aggain? 12-13 points?

Urgat
14-03-2012, 11:36
how much does a savage big 'un cost aggain? 12-13 points?

How many goblins for one big'un? :p Is the big'un that many times better? ;)

Oogie boogie boss
14-03-2012, 12:14
Savage Big 'Uns cost 11pts with additional hand weapon. ALWAYS take additional hand weapon!

Da_White_Orc
16-03-2012, 15:02
Giving this one to the orcs. A horde of savage orc big 'uns or black orcs can put out so much hurt in a single round they might obliterate the steadfast of a goblin unit in one go. A horde of savage orc big 'uns against a unit of goblins 5 wide will inflict about 17 casualties in the first round.

but that requires you taking hordes of savage orc big uns and black orcs and i only know of one orc and goblins player shameless enough to field either

Malorian
16-03-2012, 15:14
but that requires you taking hordes of savage orc big uns and black orcs and i only know of one orc and goblins player shameless enough to field either

I field both, as does every tournament O&G player with the money to do so.

Da_White_Orc
16-03-2012, 15:17
I field both, as does every tournament O&G player with the money to do so.

ya bro I was talking about you lol

Spiney Norman
16-03-2012, 16:30
It depends on how "purist" you're being, if the Gobs can take squig herds (as I suggest they should), or should I say Squig Hordes, then the orcs don't stand a wood-elfs chance, the squigs strike harder, faster and with more attacks, plus take into account the augments from the goblin lore and they're looking even safer. Remember that with the banner of discipline goblins can achieve army-wide Ld 9 much more cheaply than any other army.

Bear in mind that Bigguns are effectively just normal orcs fighting Night gobbos thanks to their nets, and as for normal orcs, str 3 in the first round and str 2 thereafter really isn't that scary to a horde of 60+ Night gobbos


how much does a savage big 'un cost aggain? 12-13 points?

11 with an additional hand weapon, more than double that if he's on a boar, thats about 1/3 the cost of a Night Goblin "biggun", sorry, Big boss with a great weapon

Thats allmost 50% more than a squig, with a lower int and tied WS, whats more for the cost of a SO Biggun Horde you can kit out a horde of 40 Night Goblins with a front rank of GW big bosses...

At the end of the day Gobbos win through variety, Orcs arrer boys aren't going to win you any prizes so how are you going to stop the mangler squigs from rampaging through your ranks? CC is only one of a great many ways that the O&G army has to do damage to its enemies, and unfortunately for the orcs its the only card they have to play, the gobbos are holding all the others.

Dark Aly
16-03-2012, 17:07
We've been planning a similar tournament, but split 4 ways. Common Goblins, Night Goblins, Savage Orcs and Normal Orcs (who also get black orcs). Only 800 points though.

So far 2 games have been played.
Common Gobs vs. Night Gobs win for the night gobbos
Orcs vs. Savage Orcs; draw

Malorian
16-03-2012, 17:22
We've been planning a similar tournament, but split 4 ways. Common Goblins, Night Goblins, Savage Orcs and Normal Orcs (who also get black orcs). Only 800 points though.

So far 2 games have been played.
Common Gobs vs. Night Gobs win for the night gobbos
Orcs vs. Savage Orcs; draw

You tease!

The only games you played are the ones that don't matter! ;)

Urgat
16-03-2012, 17:45
And it should be best of three :p

Dark Aly
17-03-2012, 01:09
You tease!

The only games you played are the ones that don't matter! ;)

Update to follow :) Common vs. Common and savage vs. night tomorrow. It's more of a league rather than tourny. Each army plays each of the others and you get 3 points for a win, 1 for a draw and 0 for a loss with a bonus point if you massacre your opponent. Civil war rules haven't been used yet but maybe next time. Only 800 points aside as we only have my minis to choose from as I'm the only greenskin here.

Jind_Singh
17-03-2012, 08:54
I field both, as does every tournament O&G player with the money to do so.

I gots the goods - close to 100 Black Orcs now and 60 Savage Orc on foot.....neither make it to the Tournament as they all wear big pink blouses!!

Gobbos me lads, gobbos!

Dark Aly
22-03-2012, 22:43
Firstly I'm very sorry for the delay in giving you folks this information so as a little prezzie I bring the results for the last 4 games.

Night goblins vs. savage orcs = Night goblins win (the mangler and nets prooved too tough for even savage orc big uns)
Orcs vs. common goblins = Orcs win (spear chukkas destroyed the boar chariot first turn but the arrer boyz were amazing. They killed a troll, 5 wolf riders, two chariots and nearly the spear chukkas but the game ended)

Night goblins vs Orcs= Orcs win (massacre). Nets are not too tough for black orcs and the other unit netted themselves against the chariot and boyz. The night goblins suffered due to lack of Ld in the army list.
Common Goblins vs. Savage Orcs= Common Goblins win. Spear chukkas and wolf riders killed the boar boyz. Chariots and magic killed the big uns, the boyz killed the other goblin unit though but too late. Frenzy and the baiting wolf riders paid off in this game.

Points total
Orcs=8
Night goblins= 6
Common Goblins= 3
Savage Orcs = 1

Best of three do you suggest Urgat? No problem. These games were great fun and really showed how the greenskins work best when working together. I need to work on the army lists a lot though as I haven't played this points level for ages. Oh well live and learn.

Oogie boogie boss
23-03-2012, 08:38
Oh dear, that doesn't bode well for my SO army.......glad to see the Orcs come out on top though. As for the OP, by 'all orc', that should include savages and black orcs. By 'all goblin', that includes NG as well as common goblins, as well as affiliated units (squig hoppers/herders). Trolls, Giants and snotlings should be able to be used by either.

Dark Aly
23-03-2012, 14:10
Aye but we'd already started this leaque. The savage orcs suffered because I didn't have many models and as we tried to include everything in 800 points the units weren't very large and robust. I think the savage orcs found frenzy and only Ld 7 a bit of an issue too. We're going to try again in a month as Urgat suggested best of three and I should be able to have a 1000 point force for each faction. Maybe we'll do a battle royale event with both Orc armies vs both gobbos just for kicks too.

TBH I'm having so much fun with all the different themes of O&Gs that my other armies are feeling a little left out. So I'm going to get some games in with them over the next month.

Urgat
23-03-2012, 14:46
Can you share the lists with us? It'd be interesting to see how is what. If you ask me the common goblins really under performed :p

Oogie boogie boss
23-03-2012, 15:06
I second that. Well, the first part. I'd be interested to see what was in each force and what magic item combos were used.

Dark Aly
23-03-2012, 15:36
Savage Orcs
Shaman
Extra level, shrunken head

20 big Uns
AHW, Standard, Boss (shaman in here too)

30 Savage Orcs
AHW, Standard, Musician

5 Boar Boys
AHW, Standard

Orcs
Great Shaman
Talisman of endurance

19 Arrer Boys
Standard

20 Boys
Standard, Shields

18 Black Orcs
Standard

Boar chariot

Night Goblins
Great Shaman

BSB
Standard of disipline, LA, Shield

38 Night Goblins
Bows, Nets, Standard, musician, 1x fanatic

40Night goblins
nets, standard, musician, spears

squig heard
14 squigs, 6 handlers

mangler squig

Common Goblins
Great Shaman

BSB
LA, Shield

40 Goblins
Shields, standard, musician

40 Goblins
Shields, stanard, musician, 1x nasty skulker

5 wolf riders
bows

2x spear chukkas

2xwolf chariots
(in a single unit)

1 Troll

I know these lists are far from optimal but it's almost everything I have. I also wanted to include as many stereotypical units in each army; I mean what is a night goblin army without squigs and fanatics.

For the next round maybe the people here on warseer could suggest army lists of 1000 points for their preffered faction. We don't mind proxy models so feel free to suggest what ever you think is best.

Oogie boogie boss
23-03-2012, 16:48
I can definately see why the SO suffer (not that i'm biased). I'd ditch the shaman and go for a combat character and some more troops. There just aren't enough models in that army for absorb any kind of damage, or to deal out enough in return. I'd also change the Big' Un's just normal Sorcs, so you can get more of them.
Obviously, as you say, it's limited by models available, but at this points level, they don't have enough models to make it worth trying to compete magically. Better to play to their strengths and go full on combat, and take the magic hit until they get into combat.

As for the other lists, I think they're pretty good, especially the NG list. Thanks for keeping us updated, i for one can't wait to see what happens next! :p

Dark Aly
23-03-2012, 16:59
I wanted to use the shrunken head TBH as a lot of people on here seem to think it's very good (it is) but I also thought they might need some high strength attack which is why I went for big uns. Next time I'll follow your advice and try a full on combat army. They also struggled with only having 3 true savage orc units to choose from; savage orcs, big uns and boar boys. I might try some none savage orc auxillaries like trolls or pump wagons next time too.

I wrote all the lists and commanded an army in each of the battles and some things with O&Gs are still a little new to me (I've only had the savages for a couple of weeks)

Oogie boogie boss
23-03-2012, 17:12
It might be an idea to make the SO Boar Boys Big 'Uns and give them spears and shields. That'll give you ST6 attacks on the charge for an impact unit, and won't cost as much as a unit of Big 'Un infantry. I'm not saying an all combat force is a sure-fire hit, but if they are struggling it might be an idea.
For the other lists i think you've gotten the balance right though, hence why they are doing better. And i'd see trolls and giants as interchangeable between the four armies, as they fit into the fluff of them all.

Urgat
23-03-2012, 17:53
No warbosses in either goblin lists? Those Ld tests must be very fun :p Did the troll pass a single stupidity test?
Seriously, for 1000 points (common gobs), you take a lvl2 shaman, a warboss (don't waste magic points on him, you keep him behind the lines to babysit, you take him for his Ld, nothing else), the BRB, and you pack 3 nasty skulkers in both units to mitigate damage (and hopefully dealing some). And then, I supposed if you took that, it's because you don't have anything else. I wouldn't take the troll, I can't see what a lone troll can achieve. Well I wouldn't take the chukkas either, but it's down to personal tastes, mine always fail to wound so I've just given up on them. I'd either take a doomdiver instead, or take a real unit of trolls (well, I always take a unit of river trolls, so...). I'd try and free points to give bows to the gobs, too. having HW+shields+bows is a real strength worth sacrificing a few gobs.

Brother Haephestus
23-03-2012, 20:30
I don't think asking me to choose when I love them both is very fair.

I haven't gotten enough Greenskin in 8th, my forces a bit too random and building up slowly. Warrior of Chaos and I are going to throw down 4000pts per of OnG vs Chaos Warrior goodness. I'm hoping to do well, with two 60-ct NG hordes, Araknarok, Giant, a large block of trolls, Black Orcs, Savage Orcs, all sorts of flankers, 2 Spear Chukkas and a Doom Diver. Oh - BO Warboss general on Wyvern vs his Chaos Warrior Lord on Manticore - we both wanted to show off our generals on monsters! That's the advantage of playing fun games - you can actually risk having your general out and crumping things instead of hiding him in the rear in a 100-gobbo "bunker of fear".

Warrior of Chaos
24-03-2012, 06:01
I think I have a soft spot for Orcs myself, but Gobbos gotz the zany goodness. Well Brother H, whenever you are ready to get the beat down let me know. I'll bring the beer, you bring the band-aids!:D

Eyrenthaal
24-03-2012, 08:11
I started snotling warband for mordheim.. Now It's a army.. Using them as gobbos they win about as much as they loose. But they're almost always fun to play..

Gop
25-03-2012, 22:59
LOL it would be an epic battle with much bloodshed. Then the dwarfs can clap their gauntlets and wipe the survivors out :evilgrin:

excessiveswagger
27-03-2012, 13:24
gobbos all the way. Get all the warmachines, the big spider, the squig herds, and the wolf chariots

Oogie boogie boss
28-03-2012, 08:39
Orcs seem to be pulling away again. I think if someone does test this, it should be the best of three battles, with different scenarios for each. That way, we really do get an idea of which is the better choice.