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BBWags
29-02-2012, 18:51
I haven't played 40k in a while. After 5th edition came out I gravitated to FB and have really been enjoying that. However, in light of an impending 6th edition, I thought I'd take a gander at some of the newer 40k armies. GK had always caught my eye; not just because of the fluff, but because the idea of a super elite army that really could defeat 2 or 3 times it's number on the field has always appealed to me. Most every game I play, I try to win against insurmountable odds. It is the most epic way to win.

Having said that... Grey Knights. How have they been received in the current meta. I know the rules for 40k, but having been out of touch with the game since space wolves came out, I'm not really sure where GK fit in the current meta.

Are they actually effective in that ultra elite sense?

Are they "broken" in any way, for good or I'll? For example, will people roll their eyes when they see me plop down a GK army?

Where would they be ranked in the competitive scene?

I guess I'm just looking for an overall feel to the army. I have the dex, but as I mentioned, I feel very out of touch with the overall gaming community, so it's hard for mr to judge the army in relation to it's peers. Anyone feel like helping me out? Thanks!

Grimtuff
29-02-2012, 18:57
This.

Will not end well.

That is all. Do a search and you'll see how vitriolic this topic will get.

BBWags
29-02-2012, 19:03
Wow. Didn't realize this was a hot topic. Shows how out of touch I've been. I did a search and found the GK tactics thread but it wasn't on the most current 4 pages of thread topics so I figured it was rather defunct...

So... If I may stoke the fire just a tad, and please remember that I am a neutral party just asking some questions... But, "what's the hubbub, bub?"

Project2501
29-02-2012, 19:18
GK are very powerful. They will satisfy your desire to have a small elite army that is more than capable of killing more than their 'fair share' of enemies.

Nurgling Chieftain
29-02-2012, 19:55
Shortly after the Grey Knight codex came out, my local play group was flooded with Grey Knight players. Other MEQ armies found themselves badly outmatched, so much so that many people I know have quit playing altogether, as they're just sick of playing against Grey Knights with what amounts to a severe handicap from the outset: a good Grey Knight army can usually outshoot and out close combat its MEQ competitors.

Non-MEQ armies may also be affected, but IMO not as severely; for example a Guard army can blast a Grey Knight army off the table much like it would another MEQ opponent.

Desca
29-02-2012, 20:03
GK are not an autowin (at least not against all armies), but noone would say, you won "against insurmountable odds"

Kevlar
29-02-2012, 20:09
Looks like we found another purifier spam player.

Grimtuff
29-02-2012, 20:22
Non-MEQ armies may also be affected, but IMO not as severely; for example a Guard army can blast a Grey Knight army off the table much like it would another MEQ opponent.

Tell that to Tyranids. They're the GK's whipping boys.

BBWags
29-02-2012, 20:22
Looks like we found another purifier spam player.

On the contrary, my desire isn't to cheese anything out. Honestly, when I said I wanted to win against insurmountable odds, I was just trying to be poetic. I play this game to have fun, and if I lose by dying a glorious, sacrificial death to stem the tide of evil just a little bit, as long as the game was well fought, that's fine. I don't mind losing. I don't want to press an auto win button. There is no fun in that at all.

But I guess I'm getting a pretty vivid answer to my question: the community is resentful toward the new GK... at least the meq community is... Unfortunate.

Captain Collius
29-02-2012, 20:39
Grey knights can be very powerful if done right and there are some who will not play against them. As for me i think that having grey knight armies across the table makes my victory all the sweeter

Mánagarmr
29-02-2012, 20:58
the community is resentful toward the new GK... at least the meq community is... Unfortunate.

It's hard not to be, honestly. While I will never refuse to play a person, mind you - there is absolutely nothing enjoyable about playing against Grey Knights; especially as a Marine variant. They will out-shoot and out-melee even your dedicated units, and often times, do it for significantly less than you payed.

It just leaves a bad taste in your mouth, even if you pull out a win.

Scammel
29-02-2012, 21:06
Having narrowly lost with Daemons against them recently (I left the guy with a single Strike Squad and a Raven), I would say that for all their ridiculousness, most of the conventional stuff that works against Marines works against them pretty well too - Bloodcrushers can make pretty nice Purifier jam. But yeah, you're rarely going to have a real challenge using them.

BBWags
29-02-2012, 21:09
It's hard not to be, honestly. While I will never refuse to play a person, mind you - there is absolutely nothing enjoyable about playing against Grey Knights; especially as a Marine variant. They will out-shoot and out-melee even your dedicated units, and often times, do it for significantly less than you payed.

It just leaves a bad taste in your mouth, even if you pull out a win.

Fair enough. Ok, let me ask another question... Or at least come at the situation in a different way. What about the book is broken? Namely, are the troops selections broken? If you played a game against a GK opponent that had a terminator squad and two gkpa units as the core and no more of one choice of any other particular selection (except for vehicles, obviously), then does the MEQ opponent still not stand a chance? Or is it only the elite and fast attack choices that are broken?

And if someone can enlighten me WITHOUT the venom: what makes the broken units broken?

Craftworld
29-02-2012, 21:09
If their codex was anything to go by, they should be specialized Marine hunters in the fluff - not Daemon hunters.

Guard, Dark Eldar, and somewhat curiously, Khorne Daemons of all things, tend to do pretty well against them. Everyone else is fighting an uphill battle. If you're seeking a challenging play experience, they're not the army for you.

Notanoob
29-02-2012, 21:13
For Tyranids, a squad of Purifiers counts as a hard counter to everything in our army. Thank god for Shadow in the Warp though.

Chaos Demons are hilariously good against GK, so long as they survive the shooting to get some Bloodletters into CC.

IG can wipe them off the table.

MEQ are basically boned though.

Take into account that we tend to exaggerate things we dislike, which is the case of GK, but they really are too damn good and their fluff has a lot of abominable stuff in it.

Project2501
29-02-2012, 21:18
Fair enough. Ok, let me ask another question... Or at least come at the situation in a different way. What about the book is broken? Namely, are the troops selections broken? If you played a game against a GK opponent that had a terminator squad and two gkpa units as the core and no more of one choice of any other particular selection (except for vehicles, obviously), then does the MEQ opponent still not stand a chance? Or is it only the elite and fast attack choices that are broken?

And if someone can enlighten me WITHOUT the venom: what makes the broken units broken?

The 'problem' stems from the combinations of a few things IMO.

The GK's basic gear is quite astonishing by an other army's standards. The bare bones basic PAGK wields a force sword and a storm bolter. Then there's psychic powers on top of that.

This is put 'over the top' by the upgrades/options they have from there on. Be it force halibards that grant +2 init and are still force weapons to psybolts.

The points costs of both the basic troops' gear and the upgrades is very 'out-of-whack' compared to what it offers in terms of bonuses for points (they're widely viewed as way way too cheap).

I love herohammer. I played 3.5ed CSM wordbeaerers with a crazy tooled up DP, and now SWs with a crazy tooled up WL. I am the perfect candidate to move on over to GK, and believe me the desire is there, but I do not because I love the SW codex more. It strikes just the right balance between customization and competitiveness, while actually properly representing Space Marines from the fluff. GKs have units comprised of seemingly only heroes, no 'troops'.

I do not have any problems with playing against GK or other people playing GK.

Nurgling Chieftain
29-02-2012, 21:50
Tell that to Tyranids.I will if I find any. The last hive fleet I saw was wiped out by splinter fire before the Grey Knight codex even hit the shelves. :p


What about the book is broken? ...

And if someone can enlighten me WITHOUT the venom: what makes the broken units broken?Sadly, there's too much to summarize. With Guard, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves, you can sum up what makes them top-tier in just a handful of units each. With Grey Knights, you have things like every non-vehicle model coming with a force weapon and +1Str psychic power standard, and every vehicle coming with a 5 point vehicle "upgrade" that ignores virtually all shaken and stunned results, and another pseudo-optional 5 point vehicle upgrade that increases most weapon strengths by 1. Purifiers, death cult assassins, and "psyfilemen" may typify the most powerful builds, but that's really just piling insult onto injury.

carlisimo
29-02-2012, 21:52
Are there any hypothetical GK builds that aren’t overpowered? How bad can you make an army?

wyvirn
29-02-2012, 21:56
Well, considering that the basic trooper has a power weapon that causes instant death, 24" assault weapons, and all manner of grenades, they can't really be that bad. You might have some luck with henchmen, but that requires a special character and dedication to making a bad list.

BBWags
29-02-2012, 22:07
Well, considering that the basic trooper has a power weapon that causes instant death, 24" assault weapons, and all manner of grenades, they can't really be that bad. You might have some luck with henchmen, but that requires a special character and dedication to making a bad list.

This kind of made me laugh... A huge point in favor of GK for me. Why, because I want an overpowered juggernaut? Nope! Because usually I'll take a dex and instantaneously choose to go with the one strategy that simply isn't viable in that particular book :-)

Maybe if I play GK, I can play a fluffy list that is still competitive.

druchii
29-02-2012, 22:31
This kind of made me laugh... A huge point in favor of GK for me. Why, because I want an overpowered juggernaut? Nope! Because usually I'll take a dex and instantaneously choose to go with the one strategy that simply isn't viable in that particular book :-)

Maybe if I play GK, I can play a fluffy list that is still competitive.

This is actually the problem with GKs.

You deliberately have to hamstring yourself to build an enjoyable army.

The other problem with them is that I could give them to my girlfriend, who's never played 40k, ever, and point out which things in an opponent's army are scary, and watch her wreck face with them.

Finally, to the person who said demons are any shade of good against GKs has obviously never played a game of 40k.

d

LonelyPath
29-02-2012, 22:32
So long as you avoid taking lots of Purifiers and Rifleman Dreadnoughts with Psy-bolts (known as Psyfleman Dreads) then you should be okay and not chase off other players. I've tried the list myself and it is truly evil against other armies. Personally though I prefer a list of Strike Squads lead by a brother captain or Librarian (usually the latter), 1 Psyfleman Dread, a Las/Missile Dread and a Vindicare. it can be strong, but not to oppressive.

Henchmen lists are also fun with lots of variety, but sadly they lack anything in the Fast or Heavy sections of the list to get a full all round selection across the army.

As for the fluff, the less said about it the better. Ward trod on many toes with what he wrote there.

Finally, in regard to Daemons, I sometimes take them against GK for a chuckle, knowing that I'll be wiped off the table unless my opponent rolls so badly I can manage a draw. We really don't take those games seriously, but it breaks up the monotony of just trying to beat each other with a fun scenario we write up ourselves.

Grimtuff
29-02-2012, 22:35
Finally, to the person who said demons are any shade of good against GKs has obviously never played a game of 40k.


He was referring specifically of Khornate Daemons, and only then when you spam units that have Blessing of the Blood God, which gives you, amongst other things, a 2+ invulnerable save vs. Force Weapons.

althathir
29-02-2012, 22:49
Tell that to Tyranids. They're the GK's whipping boys.

Nids really have pretty much been every 5th edition armies whipping boy (with the exception of vanillas). Its sad but I think their 4th edition book would be more competitive.


It's hard not to be, honestly. While I will never refuse to play a person, mind you - there is absolutely nothing enjoyable about playing against Grey Knights; especially as a Marine variant. They will out-shoot and out-melee even your dedicated units, and often times, do it for significantly less than you payed.

It just leaves a bad taste in your mouth, even if you pull out a win.

I like pulling out a win when I feel outmatched.

I really don't have a problem with GKs for the most part, but the Inquisitor rules, made for an easy way for GK players to get around their weakness. I think they're the best book right now, but they aren't 3.5 chaos, craftworld supplement Eldar good either.

KeyOfTwilight
29-02-2012, 22:56
I think GK are vastly overrated in their abilities. Sure, a GOOD player can consistently win with the army, and a bad player can win pretty good too with a cheese army, but against a player who knows their army, and knows their opponents army, and can use those two factors to their advantage, GK pretty much crumble. Even nids can beat them by playing with shadow in the warp. I'm looking at nids for my next army even, just to show how it can be done.

To the topic at hand, however, I would say take some of the lesser known units in the books, like their jump troop equivalent, or their devastator equivalent. Spread out your points more in 3+ rather than all in 2+/5++. I would say don't even use dreadnoughts, they're sort of against what grey knights philosophy is anyway. Take rhinos or stormravens as your transports, and eschew using cheap cheese like razorbacks. Or if you use any RBs at all, take one only. Heck, even use a land raider. Play it how you would play a vanilla marines army.





I really don't have a problem with GKs for the most part, but the Inquisitor rules, made for an easy way for GK players to get around their weakness. I think they're the best book right now, but they aren't 3.5 chaos, craftworld supplement Eldar good either.

I don't think anything comes close to the Daemon Princes in 3.5 chaos in terms of cheese. "Oh, you have an invulnerable save? Nope, I'm pretty sure you don't. Oh, you don't have a normal save either. And I can fly."

Bunnahabhain
29-02-2012, 23:34
An awful lot ( IMO) of the bad feeling that the GK book generates comes from the way it ignores so many conventions.

The +1 strength Psy power- applies BEFORE doubling, not after, like everything else
The grenade effects, similarly, kick in at a step to make them much better than they would be anywhere else.
Grand strategy ( gives D3 units a choice of useful upgrades, like making them scoring) gives you a simple way to cover weaknesses
Fortitude ( ignores shaken & stunned) makes their shooty vehicles so much better, for next to nothing, and with no downside.

Basically, if there were two ways something could work, GKs just about always got the cheaper, more effective, better way.

BBWags
29-02-2012, 23:42
Does anyone think that GK might have been designed for 6th edition and maybe some of the things that seem outrageous now will be much less so at that time? After looking through the book a little, the first thing I've noticed is it seems to be quite hard to kit out your own grandmaster when you have draigo awesome-sauce staring you in the face. Doesn't make it easy to go non-excellent.

rocdocta
29-02-2012, 23:46
People are just sick of facing GKs. Next tourney this weekend literally 50% of all players are GKs. They are seen as a noob army. This due to being undercosted and OP. Anyone can use them and do well in a tourney. Check out their wargear and compare the points and effect to every other army. They are the one army that i refuse to play against in friendly pick up games. Its not my oppos fault, but i have better things to do than be someones punching bag for 3 hours. Now before people say "hey i just like the models and fluff...its not my fault they are so strong!" how many people played them before the new codex? very very few. maybe 1 per tourney. lo and behold they get the abomination and now everyone uses them. same fluff.

I could take my Mech IG but thats just as boring to use/face. In the quest to sell more models they made GK far too strong.

to the OP if you want repeat games and actually learn the 40k rules/ how to play well, dont take GKs. You will always be seen as "yeah he won but he had GKs, enough said..." If you like marines, take vanilla marines as they are damn fine but still forgiving. Plus you will get more games, better opponents and understand the rules.

BBWags
01-03-2012, 00:08
Is this really the way it is? Because a person may or may not believe this, but as I described in my op, I love the idea behind GK... The only reason I didn't play them before is because they were very NOT newbie friendly. The models were awesome, but let's face it, they really weren't competitive. Now unfortunately the pendulum swung too far the other way, or so it seems.

I just don't want to finally find an army I like and plays exactly as I've always wanted, but not have anyone even want to play me...

Craftworld
01-03-2012, 00:51
Finally, to the person who said demons are any shade of good against GKs has obviously never played a game of 40k.

Man up and call me out specifically, or don't make snarky comments at all. ;)

As Grimtuff pointed out, having 2+ invulnerable saves in CC is pretty damn nice. While the Grey Knights have relatively mediocre ++ saves - if at all.

I'm curious to hear about your professional gaming experience though, since you're clearly leagues above the rest of us.

BBWags
01-03-2012, 02:01
Ok, so I realize this is not the tactic forums, and as such, I'm not posting this list asking for tactical advice. Repeat, I am NOT asking for tactical advice. The only reason I am posting this list is so that anyone willing to comment can answer this one simple question: Is the list below one that would make you hate playing me as Grey Knights? To put it another way, I have spent all of an hour or two reading the codex and these are the units I've chosen to put in my first list for a couple basic reasons; i.e. I like the concept (paladins), the models (terminators in general), or the specific abilities (interceptors). So here it is:

Grand Master - 3 Servo-Skulls, Master Crafted Halberd, Psybolt Ammunition

5 Paladins - Apothecary, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Incinerator, Psycannon

5 Terminators - Psycannon, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

5 Terminators - Psycannon, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

10 GK Strike Squad - 2 Psycannons, 8 Halberds/2 Daemon Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

10 GK Interceptors - 2 Incinerators, 8 Halberds/2 Daemon Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

So again, I'm not asking you to critique the list. I don't want strategy help or telling me my choices are stupid. I am only interested in if this is a list you'd hate to play against or if you would see it as a "fair" list. My intent would be to throw out the servo-skulls, deep strike and go from there.

So what do you think, is this broken?

KeyOfTwilight
01-03-2012, 02:21
Ok, so I realize this is not the tactic forums, and as such, I'm not posting this list asking for tactical advice. Repeat, I am NOT asking for tactical advice. The only reason I am posting this list is so that anyone willing to comment can answer this one simple question: Is the list below one that would make you hate playing me as Grey Knights? To put it another way, I have spent all of an hour or two reading the codex and these are the units I've chosen to put in my first list for a couple basic reasons; i.e. I like the concept (paladins), the models (terminators in general), or the specific abilities (interceptors). So here it is:

Grand Master - 3 Servo-Skulls, Master Crafted Halberd, Psybolt Ammunition

5 Paladins - Apothecary, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Incinerator, Psycannon

5 Terminators - Psycannon, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

5 Terminators - Psycannon, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

10 GK Strike Squad - 2 Psycannons, 8 Halberds/2 Daemon Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

10 GK Interceptors - 2 Incinerators, 8 Halberds/2 Daemon Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

So again, I'm not asking you to critique the list. I don't want strategy help or telling me my choices are stupid. I am only interested in if this is a list you'd hate to play against or if you would see it as a "fair" list. My intent would be to throw out the servo-skulls, deep strike and go from there.

So what do you think, is this broken?

Interesting that it has no armor. I like it, I mean, it almost reflects what I'm doing with my red scorpions as far as spamming infantry units goes. As far as fluff goes, it's nice in that respect as well. A completely deep striked army. I'd play it, I'd love coming up with tactics against it too.

Soupcat
01-03-2012, 02:37
Man up and call me out specifically, or don't make snarky comments at all. ;)

As Grimtuff pointed out, having 2+ invulnerable saves in CC is pretty damn nice. While the Grey Knights have relatively mediocre ++ saves - if at all.

I'm curious to hear about your professional gaming experience though, since you're clearly leagues above the rest of us.

TBH khorne deamons are already pretty awful to begin with. Yes the 2++ is great but of the models that can get it on the blood thirster is any decent. Warp quake means that the "safe zone" for anything after the 1st wave if you go first (which already means your gonna eat an extra round of fire) is much further away leading to another round of shooting. You still dont have anything with grenades so FC on the bloodletters don't do much. Deamons tend to do very poorly against mech, and GKs do mech better then most. If you do poorly against khorne deamons you either are still getting used to facing against deamon deployment or really are not very good at this game.

rocdocta
01-03-2012, 05:09
Ok, so I realize this is not the tactic forums, and as such, I'm not posting this list asking for tactical advice. Repeat, I am NOT asking for tactical advice. The only reason I am posting this list is so that anyone willing to comment can answer this one simple question: Is the list below one that would make you hate playing me as Grey Knights? To put it another way, I have spent all of an hour or two reading the codex and these are the units I've chosen to put in my first list for a couple basic reasons; i.e. I like the concept (paladins), the models (terminators in general), or the specific abilities (interceptors). So here it is:

Grand Master - 3 Servo-Skulls, Master Crafted Halberd, Psybolt Ammunition

5 Paladins - Apothecary, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Incinerator, Psycannon

5 Terminators - Psycannon, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

5 Terminators - Psycannon, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

10 GK Strike Squad - 2 Psycannons, 8 Halberds/2 Daemon Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

10 GK Interceptors - 2 Incinerators, 8 Halberds/2 Daemon Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

So again, I'm not asking you to critique the list. I don't want strategy help or telling me my choices are stupid. I am only interested in if this is a list you'd hate to play against or if you would see it as a "fair" list. My intent would be to throw out the servo-skulls, deep strike and go from there.

So what do you think, is this broken?

hard to say.

Plus
It doesnt have any landraiders/armour inc Psyrifledreads etc

Ok
2x10 troops that arent that hard to kill.

Minus
It has paladins with an apoth. 2wounds 2+/5++ and FNP is almost impossible to drop without Ap2 and Str8+ ranged weaponry. They DS in, weather 1 round of largey ineffective shooting and then clean up with force weapons.

so for me facing that list (how many points?) i would be half annoyed at facing another GK army with pallidins and half thinking, oh well it could be worse. But if it was a gamefinder post on a forum i wouldnt answer it as I play nids, chaos necrons, daemons, marines, Mech Guard (rarely). Just being honest. Fore warned is fore armed.

fubukii
01-03-2012, 06:23
Gk are fine, they are a strong codex, but no worse then SW/IG. IG is still the top dog, i find the one problem is gks are cheap to field a strong army, so people who run "fluffly" lists gte stomped by competitive gk armies. The book is desgined so there arent those Ultra ****** choices that other books have. If people stop taking terrible armies they would complain less.

GK's have alot of weaknesses. A common misconception is that several different kinds of grey knight lists are sprinkled in. Usually you run into MEQ GKS, Henchmen, Paladin deathstar, Henchmen with minor GK MEQ Support. You wont see for example Grand strategy, Might of hte titans and death cult assassins in the same army. Just doesnt happen. But internet nay sayers make it seem like every list has purifiers, 6 dreds, dcas, and strike squads. Internet exaggerations :).

Armor 12+ . Grey knights have trouble with high armor value targets since psy heavy bolters and psy cannons are not nearly as effective vs them. In particular armor 14 is near impossible to deal with since 99% of grey knight armies lack melta guns. You can use this to your advantage, stop using nothing but armor 11 tanks.

High armor save models. Grey knights lack alot of AP punch. In particular 2+/3+ save models in mass are tough to shoot off the table. If they have FNP this becomes even worse. THe only hope is to get into combat. Use this to your advantage if you can. Most GK lists suffer vs Alot of Tyranid monstrous creatures. WHen i was at the nova i experienced this problem first hand.

Psychic defense, Bring some if you can. SHutting down foritute and force weapons and other powers just makes them pricey 3+ save guys.

Minus dreds 90% of the list operates entirely from 24 inches or closer.

FYI space wolf players, your grey hunters are much cheaper. Instead of the usual Tactic of Rapid fire and counter attack its usually better to SHot your bolt pistols and charge, so the strike squads only get 1 atk each. SHould net you a huge advantage in cc resulting in your cheaper unit winning. RUne priests are MVP too.

Grey knights are a blast to play, and are a great army best probably used with people who are competent players, and know how to make good army lists and play on a somewhat competitive level. If you are in a group that enjoys fluff bunny style lists with illogical choices, no list synergy and just play for giggles and a excuse to roll dice then maybe you shouldnt do grey knights. Ultimately, If you like the army play them, the models are great, most of the book is viable (minus dreadknights), and you seem to like them!

Mánagarmr
01-03-2012, 06:28
Most GK lists suffer vs Alot of Tyranid monstrous creatures. WHen i was at the nova i experienced this problem first hand.

Grey Knights struggle against monstrous creatures? Was this an attempt at humor - and I just missed it?

Oppressor
01-03-2012, 06:29
If you want to play grey knights, then play grey knights. I don't understand what the problem is. Why bother picking an army that is a hardcore group of badasses that can kill tremendous amounts of enemies while outnumbered and purposely make a list that is weak? Do you intend to use this to make people more likely to play against you by telling them you purposely made a weak list so that people can feel either cheated if they win against you or like a complete failure if they lose?

Challenge Accepted
01-03-2012, 06:29
TYRANID monstrous creatures, at that. I think we're getting trolled by the tourney "pro" over here.

Death Company
01-03-2012, 06:37
Grey knights are a blast to play, and are a great army best probably used with people who are competent players, and know how to make good army lists and play on a somewhat competitive level. If you are in a group that enjoys fluff bunny style lists with illogical choices, no list synergy and just play for giggles and a excuse to roll dice then maybe you shouldnt do grey knights.

This is rubbish.

We took an absolute new-comer in our store, and entered him into a tourney between three local gaming clubs here, running a Grey Knight list we made on the fly - and he took second place, behind another Grey Knight player. Please don't pretend you're playing a tough army.

You would actively have to try to cripple yourself to make a bad Knights list.

fubukii
01-03-2012, 06:42
To answer the questions it really does depend on the list. Grey knights are ld8 9 with the justicar. In general they dont have the usual ap1/2/3 weapons used to slay monsters Like for example SW/IG have (las/plas/melta/rockets etc) THis makes shooting them down very troublesome especially if buffed by a tervigon with FNP. Your only hope is that you have actual grey knights in your army, (As dreadnaught fire bounces off). Pray to pass a ld9 test on 3d6 with the average roll being 10.5, and hope to wound them on a 6. (obviously hammers wound better) Most GK lists will run MSU style units typically with 1-2 psycannosn per 5 man, thus leaving only 3-4 men with force weapons to attack. Between shooting you can whittle down a few, then mop them up with cc. Trygons are tervigons do well vs gk, terivgons make alot of little stuff, give fnp to stuff, and tervigons go first usually, and get a good amount of attacks. 6 attacks with rerolls and ws5.... should Mangle any marine unit. Nothing rerollable 3+ to hit and 2+ to wound :).

If you must know i play a mostly henchmen grey knight army, and i do not have many force weapons at all. SO yes, tyranids in particular are a fairly good matchup. Dreds while good arent amazing at killing 3+ save guys with potential fnp.

fubukii
01-03-2012, 06:44
This is rubbish.

We took an absolute new-comer in our store, and entered him into a tourney between three local gaming clubs here, running a Grey Knight list we made on the fly - and he took second place, behind another Grey Knight player. Please don't pretend you're playing a tough army.

You would actively have to try to cripple yourself to make a bad Knights list.

You misunderstood or perhaps i didnt make my point clear. I meant Grey knights are best used in a gaming club or circle of players who make good lists, and play competitively. I did not mean to send the wrong message. It all depends on the level of play and competitiveness of people. I regularly see 3 vendetta, mass chimera spam, 2-3 manticore guard armies, and I assure you when you play vs such a list its a terrible feeling even for a gk player and a single mistake can cost you the game resulting in being tabled. I also run into Mutliple land raider spam lists (BA,BT), Space wolves of all varieties. I will admit some armies are boned vs gk, in particular chaos SM, and dark eldar (who are boned vs guard anyway)

Off topic, but Lately wraiths have also been making a large appearance they are pretty dam good and love tanks! ( i plan on running 18 in my cron army!)

Death Company
01-03-2012, 07:12
To answer the questions it really does depend on the list. Grey knights are ld8 9 with the justicar. In general they dont have the usual ap1/2/3 weapons

You just said you play henchmen - who can spam melta wielding acolyte's and rending lascannons. How are you "limited" in your shooting options to kill monstrous creatures?

Craftworld
01-03-2012, 07:20
I don't foresee this thread ending too well for fubukii.

Bunnahabhain
01-03-2012, 07:21
Armor 12+ . Grey knights have trouble with high armor value targets since psy heavy bolters and psy cannons are not nearly as effective vs them. In particular armor 14 is near impossible to deal with since 99% of grey knight armies lack melta guns. You can use this to your advantage, stop using nothing but armor 11 tanks.

More S7 Assault cannons than a monkey Jokero can shake a stick at? I find that most people with AV14 either have
1) A land raider/ Battle wagon or two. You focus fire to stop the one with the HQ and terminator squad ( or similar)
2) Leman russes. You're screwed! Fortitude makes them nigh-on impossible to shake or stun, so you have to eat turns of pie plates. Suppress them, job done.

fubukii
01-03-2012, 07:36
You just said you play henchmen - who can spam melta wielding acoylte's and rending lascannons. How are you "limited" in your shooting options to kill monstrous creatures?

In the particular list i ran mostly the cheap stock henchmen in the razorbacks with psybolt ammo its a cheap and effective choice.. Its a common occurrence really. Lately i have been toying with massed henchmen with storm bolters, and so far i am liking it alot.6 units of 5 with storm bolters in TLAC psybacks.

As for the thread ending well for me, im all for rational discussions about GK or any army. If everyone was to believe warseer, gk would win EVERY tournament. Shadow in the warp is great vs psykers. EVen with assualt cannons you still need a 6 to do glance at 24 inch range and a 6 then a 3+ to pen, WHich arent great odds (1in 18 vs a tank in cover vs armor 12). IF the tank popped smoke or is obscured in anyway these chances go down even more.

Here Is some useful reading you can do if you are having trouble VS gk.

http://11thcompany.blogspot.com/2011/10/defeating-beast-fighting-grey-knights.html There are 9 articles from a very good player.

Less whining more adapting and overcoming.

Death Company
01-03-2012, 07:42
In the particular list i ran mostly the cheap stock henchmen in the razorbacks with psybolt ammo its a cheap and effective choice.. Its a common occurrence really. Lately i have been toying with massed henchmen with storm bolters, and so far i am liking it alot.6 units of 5 with storm bolters in TLAC psybacks.

As for the thread ending well for me, im all for rational discussions about GK or any army. If everyone was to believe warseer, gk would win EVERY tournament. Shadow in the warp is great vs psykers. EVen with assualt cannons you still need a 6 to do glance at 24 inch range and a 6 then a 3+ to pen, WHich arent great odds. IF the tank popped smoke or is obscured in anyway these chances go down even more.

Here Is some useful reading you can do if you are having trouble VS gk.

http://11thcompany.blogspot.com/2011/10/defeating-beast-fighting-grey-knights.html There are 9 articles from a very good player.

Less whining more adapting and overcoming.

Sorry, but that "competitive" guide you linked instantly lost any credibility. From the article: "As to the cries of “OP” or “everyone I know is quitting because they can’t stand the Grey Knights!”, these individuals should have already processed this when Demons came out, Orks after that, IG after that". Seriously?

Yeah, because there was an absolute uproar about Chaos Daemons and Orkz - right? :rolleyes:

I'm not sure what you attempted to accomplish here, in this thread. Grey Knights are an easy army, that beginners can excel with. Those are the facts; no "whining" required.

fubukii
01-03-2012, 07:45
Read his posts they are very insightful. If you do not want to thats your choice, but its a indepth tactical breakdown and how to counter GK, as opposed to Whining and useless cries of OP and hopelessness. My point is to the OP, start gk if you like them! There are always whiners and complainers, and the like do what you like!

Bunnahabhain
01-03-2012, 07:51
. EVen with assualt cannons you still need a 6 to do glance at 24 inch range and a 6 then a 3+ to pen, WHich arent great odds. IF the tank popped smoke or is obscured in anyway these chances go down even more.

TL BS4 psybolt assualt cannon... 4 shots, 8/9 hit, so 3.5555 hits per cannon. Two cannons should score over 7 hits, and so vs AV14, should get 0.79 pens and 0.39 glances
In comparison, 2 x BS4 melta guns (under 6") gets 0.55 pens and 0.22 glances.
Even taking into account the AP1, the 'standard' GK assault cannon is a better killer of heavy armour at 4 x the range. Against AV 12-13, the assault cannon only gets better, faster. So the not great odds....

feelnopain666
01-03-2012, 08:02
if theres a better proof to confirm how OP they are, just think of this:
I'm a tournaments organizer (involved in 2 national events) and as part of my rules, Gk armies have a 15% less pontuation (ex: in a 1750 pts event they take 1486 pts, in 2000 pts events, they have 1700 pts, etc). even with this handicap, they still get top scores.
I rest my case.

fubukii
01-03-2012, 08:13
TL BS4 psybolt assualt cannon... 4 shots, 8/9 hit, so 3.5555 hits per cannon. Two cannons should score over 7 hits, and so vs AV14, should get 0.79 pens and 0.39 glances
In comparison, 2 x BS4 melta guns (under 6") gets 0.55 pens and 0.22 glances.
Even taking into account the AP1, the 'standard' GK assault cannon is a better killer of heavy armour at 4 x the range. Against AV 12-13, the assault cannon only gets better, faster. So the not great odds....

you are comparing two 85 point tanks to 2 melta gun guys(vets get 3) who are a fraction of the cost of one of those tanks? Surely that isnt fair. In addition its not AP1 as you mentioned thats a nice bonus.

I think your melta math is off as a 7+ pens and you net roughly a 58% chance to roll a 7 or higher. and a 13.88% chance of a glance (roll of a 6), couple this together and you have roughly 27.7% chance to not hurt the raider. By this should be roughly .76 pen. Unless my math is off which it may be its late :P


Assuming the 2 TLAC hit 7 times (7.075 hits) we got to get a 6 1.13 6s rolled, netting .74 pens and the remaining glanicing. Minus the lovely +1 damage roll, which i think is the BIG kicker. WHen you pen you got a 50% chance to destroy it as opposed to a 33% chance.

As for the "handicap" must not be many good guard players :)

I said my 2 cents, believe what you will i wont change your mind, i offered good tactica articles vs them. Use what you will and do what you please. Im out :)

trigger
01-03-2012, 08:27
At the OP
I have a small GK army and yes there good but not 'super cheese death beard' they die just like other marines. A few bits to be wary of ( as in don't spam them)
Paladins , they are stupid hard to kill I prioxyed a unit of 4 in my last game at 1500 , god my opponent ha a hard time shifting them , 1 unit at 1500-2000 is ok , any more other people will moan.
Purifiers. Again very cool unit , against power armour there good but don't get much out of there power against hord armies these will shine alot , but if you dont abuse people dont really have the right to moan
Last one super dread , with the auto cannons if you play alot of meq armies people are going to get upset but if you play more infantry based armies your waisting points.
I have no vehicles in mine and whilst they can still pop a land raider it's in combat only I would suggest at least one dread of sorts.

Just have fun with them , try not to go for the obvious "shiny" stuff and people don't really have that much ground to moan , all the other armies out there have something to deal with it.
Trig

ErictheGreen
01-03-2012, 08:47
OP:

- Grey knights are primarily a shooting army. They have a killing range of 24 inches with storm bolters. Every heavy weapon that can be mounted in a squad is also 24 inches. This is where you want to play the game.
- strike squads have force weapons. this is the one I just don't understand. They have 1 attack, yet people are moaning about how OP it is to give them a power weapon. so frickin what? they hit on 4s, wound on 4s, or 3s if they get hammerhand off. I don't see grey knight armies with strike squads anyway, people are taking henchmen, paladins, purifiers or terminators. So the "warp quake screws demons" argument is flawed, because warp quake isn't in the damn army!


There are a couple of things that combine together to make them overpowered;
- strong 24 inch range shooting is great, but without long range fire it would make them tougher to play. Enter dreadnoughts with access to S8 autocannons. there's a reason you see them in every damn GK army ever.
- Ability to put lots of cheap troops and cheap mech on the board (through the use of the Coteaz special character). Mech is king at the moment, and GK can put a 67 point AV11 tanks on the board with 3 S6 shots. in a troops choice.
- ridiculous psychic power on the purifiers that completely negates the weakness elite armies have against hordes.
- out creeding creed, ensuring that they can take minimal troops and stack up on elites and heavy but still have enough scoring units (when the push for the WHOLE of 5th has been more troops).

That's pretty much it. Paladins don't work unless you can wound allocate. They are stupidly expensive (apothecary for 75 points on top of the 55 i've already paid for the pally?? no thanks)

If you:
- take strike squads and terminators as your troops
- take 10 man squads, instead of the oft used 5 man with a psycannon in a razorback
- avoid dreadnoughts with 2 autocannons (1 and a fist, or other heavy weapons is fine). Mainly because this configuration of dreadnought should be DARK ANGELS ONLY! stupid gw giving our stuff to everyone else....mutter....mutter
- take interceptors and purgation squads.
- only take 1 squad of purifiers - the fluff says there's only 40 of them, yet GW produces a book that lets you potentially take 60. dumb. plain dumb. One squad of these vets should be enough.

You will still have a strong army, but it won't steamroller people. personally, i only have a problem with the Coteaz, cheap henchmen/razorbacks/massed deathcult in storm ravens list. The rest of the codex doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Wishing
01-03-2012, 08:51
To the OP: It seems pretty clear that if you want a list that won't be complained about, don't take Paladins. Stick with regular Terminators, Strike Squads and Interceptors, and you will do much better. And it goes without saying to not take Purifiers or any vehicles.

orkmiester
01-03-2012, 09:06
Just have fun with them , try not to go for the obvious "shiny" stuff and people don't really have that much ground to moan , all the other armies out there have something to deal with it.
Trig

thats what i do... in fact my twin stormraven army is quite fun to use i caused a ravenwing player quite a few problems when he realised i would be 'flying in' for a nice chat and a cup of tea, suffice to say it was quite a nice cup of tea for me, and not a psyfleman dread in sight:D

Even then they still raise eyebrows, on the fact that even with the flaw that i am reliant upon my rolling for deepstrikes. Some players seem to lose it, tactically that is, the folks i've lost to are the ones who don't let their supposed power intimidate them:cool:

Though i've dodged the bullet:shifty:, a new player at our club does GK and those 3 rifleman dreads of his cause more 'trouble' than my stormravens. i've beat then with chaos marines, and i'm a chaos noob i'll freely admit to that:p, though he has yet to face our guard expert with his 3 vendettas, methinks they won't exist after turn one if the guard go first...

It all depends upon your own style... and the people you intend to play with-in my case its quite a good intellectual exercise in trying to think of ways to bust those rifleman dreads as i've only played him once. They key seems to be kill them quick then he is in seroius trouble...

just my humble view:angel:

BBWags
01-03-2012, 11:21
Thanks for all the replies and advice so far. Here is my thought in reply, specifically answering some comments without finding every quote:

Its not that I won't play an army if I feel others would look down on me, but I am finding that I have more fun if my opponent has fun. (I almost made an analogy about how sex is so much better when you know your wife is enjoying it, too, bit then thought better of it... The illustration might be lost on the majority of the 40k player base :-D). It's simply not that much fun to trounce a guy so bad that it's obvious he is miserable.

Having said that, I like paladins. I love they have 2 wounds (I've kind of always thought termies should) I love that they have access to GNP. No army I've ever played with before has had that. So I'm going to take a squad probably in every game. Knowing that it's one of *those* units, however, means I'll never take more than one. But I'm not going to scrap them altogether for fear of nerd rage on the other side of the table.

I love dreadnought. Seriously. In previous SM lists I always took two because I loved the concept, even when people said they weren't that good. However, the traditional psyfleman dread just looks stupid, IMO. Sure, insanely effective, but a big box on legs with tubes sticking out each side? Belch. So for me it would be the traditional mm/ dccw dread... Unfortunately to make that work, id have to use a storm raven which would basically dictate the makeup of the rest of the list. So for now it's out.

I don't know how effective the above list would be, but it seems to fit the fluff: teleport in right in the midst of the enemy and lay all your chips down.

Btw, I have seen a lot of battle reports using draigo. Is he considered part of the cheese as long as you aren't spamming paladin squads? He just seems so good in comparison to the vanilla grand master, but SC is one of those areas that I have a hard time going. But he's amazing!!

Oh you dumb GW designers... :-)

trigger
01-03-2012, 11:36
Draigo is "one of those" but if your not planing on paladin spam he prob isn't worth it.
Normal GM is almost as good

Grimtuff
01-03-2012, 11:40
Draigo is "one of those" but if your not planing on paladin spam he prob isn't worth it.
Normal GM is almost as good

I believe it is more for his abominable May-sue background rather than his in game performance. ;)

trigger
01-03-2012, 12:01
I believe it is more for his abominable May-sue background rather than his in game performance. ;)

For me it's not the whole " he beat chaos ", it's not" chaos fear him"
It's not even the whole " bitch slapping a primarch"
It's the " only one soul on Titan knows how to open the box that will save humanity should the need arise , so what we will do is make that one person the guy that can never go back to Titan"
" supreme grand master jeff has died , we must chose one to take his place, one who can read the book and understand the importance and secrets we hold"

" um what about Draigo , he's bad ass"

" but he is lost to the warp , how could we get the book to him to read ?"

" il fax it to him!!! ... Il keep my eyes closed so as not to read it"
" sounds fair , Draigo it is then. Cake anyone?"

kaimarion
01-03-2012, 12:05
Man up and call me out specifically, or don't make snarky comments at all. ;)

As Grimtuff pointed out, having 2+ invulnerable saves in CC is pretty damn nice. While the Grey Knights have relatively mediocre ++ saves - if at all.

I'm curious to hear about your professional gaming experience though, since you're clearly leagues above the rest of us.

While we're on the topic of GK vs Daemons our last game against daemons seen 15k of Daemons destroyed by 5k of GK. The game was 2 GK players against 1 Daemon player on a 6x4 board.

roirin
01-03-2012, 12:06
I think Tau deserve an honourable mention here. A competitive list completely tanks a grey knight army, for my part i ve never come close to losing to them. Also i don t think anyone s mention dark eldar yet, dark lance spam can beat all but the psyflemen dreadnought list. Its definetely the MEQ s that most scared of them.

Captain Collius
01-03-2012, 12:09
Look there is a fair grey knight list its called jokero-spam (lots of monkies). but again GK have weaknesses you have to adapt. are they OP? yes. Are they Undercosted? yes. Are they beatable watch what happens when a good guard player plays GK.

ErictheGreen
01-03-2012, 12:22
Thanks for all the replies and advice so far. Here is my thought in reply, specifically answering some comments without finding every quote:

Its not that I won't play an army if I feel others would look down on me, but I am finding that I have more fun if my opponent has fun. (I almost made an analogy about how sex is so much better when you know your wife is enjoying it, too, bit then thought better of it... The illustration might be lost on the majority of the 40k player base :-D). It's simply not that much fun to trounce a guy so bad that it's obvious he is miserable.

Having said that, I like paladins. I love they have 2 wounds (I've kind of always thought termies should) I love that they have access to GNP. No army I've ever played with before has had that. So I'm going to take a squad probably in every game. Knowing that it's one of *those* units, however, means I'll never take more than one. But I'm not going to scrap them altogether for fear of nerd rage on the other side of the table.

I love dreadnought. Seriously. In previous SM lists I always took two because I loved the concept, even when people said they weren't that good. However, the traditional psyfleman dread just looks stupid, IMO. Sure, insanely effective, but a big box on legs with tubes sticking out each side? Belch. So for me it would be the traditional mm/ dccw dread... Unfortunately to make that work, id have to use a storm raven which would basically dictate the makeup of the rest of the list. So for now it's out.

I don't know how effective the above list would be, but it seems to fit the fluff: teleport in right in the midst of the enemy and lay all your chips down.

Btw, I have seen a lot of battle reports using draigo. Is he considered part of the cheese as long as you aren't spamming paladin squads? He just seems so good in comparison to the vanilla grand master, but SC is one of those areas that I have a hard time going. But he's amazing!!

Oh you dumb GW designers... :-)

People WILL moan about you going with a paladin army. However, if you used a Draigo paladin army without psyfleman backup and using regular dreads instead, your army has some serious shortcomings. Especially when objective games happen and those lascannon/meltas start flying. you'll be picking your guys off the board. use your dreads with plasma cannons, lascannons, hell, even psycannons (assault+psybolt). Great psychic defence, not so hot with armour.

I say you should play this army. Anyone that moans, isn't that good at the game because its emminently beatable. You could even point out its shortcomings. I think it's a good idea.

Grimtuff
01-03-2012, 12:38
I think Tau deserve an honourable mention here. A competitive list completely tanks a grey knight army, for my part i ve never come close to losing to them. Also i don t think anyone s mention dark eldar yet, dark lance spam can beat all but the psyflemen dreadnought list. Its definetely the MEQ s that most scared of them.

Just because you've always beaten GK with your Tau does not make GK bad or for that matter Tau good. Tau are regarded as now being one of, if not the weakest codex in 40k. Tau are almost universally accepted as a very sub par codex that is in dire need of an update. GK, as evidenced from this thread alone, a stupidly overpowered codex that pisses over even the top tier 40k lists.

If you can, as you claim, consistently beat GK with your Tau, then my hat goes off to you. But don't go judging the power of a list based on the competency of your opponents.

LonelyPath
01-03-2012, 12:42
Grand Master - 3 Servo-Skulls, Master Crafted Halberd, Psybolt Ammunition

5 Paladins - Apothecary, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Incinerator, Psycannon

5 Terminators - Psycannon, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

5 Terminators - Psycannon, 3 Halberds/2 Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

10 GK Strike Squad - 2 Psycannons, 8 Halberds/2 Daemon Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

10 GK Interceptors - 2 Incinerators, 8 Halberds/2 Daemon Hammers, Psybolt Ammunition

A good range of Termies and PA units, 4 Troops choices (6 with combat squading), a solid HQ and those Paladins to tarpit, I like it. Hardly over powered due to lacking the usual offending units in that department, but the lack of transports on the SS may be a hindering, but it's not my list. I think it would be fun on the table whether you're plying it or facing it. I say that if you like htis list then go for it, the most important thing is that you like it regardless of what others think.

The Marshel
01-03-2012, 12:53
I think one of the most important factors as to why GKs get so much flak is that while they can make arguably the most powerful army in the game, you can basically throw anything together and still destroy other armies in a friendly environment too.

"grab bag" guard is terrible compared to the extremely strong competitive guard builds. BA may have lots of potential to out do vanilla marines, but just throwing some units together is no better. Tyranids can be very competitive, but just picking units from the list without a great deal of thought produces a very bad list

Gk however produce reasonably powerful list even if ur jsut picking units you like and/or have or basing it heavily on restrictive fluff etc etc. A single riflemen dread isn't as bad as 3, but will still cause hell against non competitive list. Fortitude makes non riflemen dreads much more threating then their non GK counter parts making them by no means a bamsu purifer spam is a solid competitive build, but a single 10 man squad in rhino, even with odd equiptment like falcions and swords can still ruin many units. Purgation squads are widely considered not that useful and unnecessary in most GK armies, yet they will happily remove an entire hoard of enemies in a turn of incinerator fire.

I think the biggest problem with gk isn't that they dominate competitive battling, but that they easily dominate friendly battling. You don't really have to do much at all to make a GK list that can steam roll the average "friendly" list. This is the key difference between GK and the other "power" armies imo. SW, BA and guard are all quite balanced in a friendly environment where everyone isn't playing razorspam or parking lot guard. Even the more basic and unoptimised GK armies however can be very difficult to deal with

I've found a good way to keep my own GK in line is to avoid MSU. taking full units means less transports on the table and less ways you can target the opponent. if you're only fielding 3 rhinos of GKs in a friendly game chances are your opponent can stop enough of the force from reaching them too keep things interesting. Its when you start taking MSU of purifers and strike squads and multiple psflymen and taking advantage of specific henchmen tricks that things start getting out of hand.

As for your list bbwargs, i like it, though i wouldn't shy away from transports for the strike squad. 2 rhinos isn't exactly going to stretch the opponents AT and doesn't leave you entirely at the mercy of a first turn alpha strike killing the bulk of ur men

roirin
01-03-2012, 13:18
Just because you've always beaten GK with your Tau does not make GK bad or for that matter Tau good. Tau are regarded as now being one of, if not the weakest codex in 40k. Tau are almost universally accepted as a very sub par codex that is in dire need of an update. GK, as evidenced from this thread alone, a stupidly overpowered codex that pisses over even the top tier 40k lists.

If you can, as you claim, consistently beat GK with your Tau, then my hat goes off to you. But don't go judging the power of a list based on the competency of your opponents.

I ll admit Tau are flagging but the only list thats beaten me in the last six months is daemons (3+/4+ re-roll able invuns). I ve drawn some games but you get that sometimes when you pay 130pts on troops. I play GT players/lists quite often too.

Grey knights are very powerful but there are a number of codexes that can put the hurt of them, then there are others (like daemons) who die before they even touch the field. The number of codexes they have the upper hand on is larger for sure. I was just pointing out its not just guard that can beat them.

beanerboy
01-03-2012, 13:30
I have recently collected a gk army, after playing infantry IG and mech DE, and I have gone for a list which I loved the models for, I didn't look around the interweb first I just chose what I wanted, my list looks something like,

Grand master. Hammer

4 paladins, apoth, SB, falchions
10 purifiers, 4 incinerators, 5 halberds

10 strike squad, 10 halberds
5 terminators, psy cannon
5 terminators, psy cannon

Land raider
Storm raven

I find that it has a load of what the interweb seems to seem power units, but I just enjoy the attempts at a tiny army trying to take on odds which seem impossible. Much like the op, I have gone for things which I think are fun and look good on the table, I mean who don't like the idea of a land raider flying forward, and then 3 units of terminators deep striking straight into the heart of an enemy to try and fight for humanity.

I enjoy my games, my opponents enjoy my games, and I don't see much of the negative attitude towards Gk in my community.

Beaner

Dreadlordpaul
01-03-2012, 14:36
I am also planning a grey knights army myself im planning on running

HQ grandmaster pong wong buffolo tongue
Daemon hammer 3x serve skulls psy amunition

Troops
10x termies with 2 psycannons psybolts and max number of daemon hammers

10x termies with 2 psycannons psybolts and max number of daemon hammers

10x strikes with daemon hammer and psybolts

10x strikes with daemon hammer and psybolts

Fast attack
10x interceptors

As i dont have the book idk how many points this comes to but hopefully i can field it at 1.5k

Spider-pope
01-03-2012, 14:51
I've been in a similar position to the OP, in my case it was Daemons. Back in 7th edition, Daemons were the Grey Knights of Fantasy. Virtually everywhere on the interwebs if you mentioned daemons all you would hear is how overpowered and terrible to play against they were, how they took no skill, how it took massive effort to make a bad list with them.

I found myself loving their models and fluff however, which left me in a quandary - bow down to internet wisdom or do what i wanted with my own money. I chose the latter.

You will hear constantly how people won't play you, or how your opponent won't have fun. After facing the same with my Daemons i say poppycock to that. I never once had a single complaint made to me by my opponent, and i lost more times than i'd care to mention.

When it comes down to it, it is your money. It is you who will be buying and painting the models. And unless you are a complete ****, you won't struggle to find opponents. And sooner or later the internet will move on to the next "overpowered cheese" army.

GrogDaTyrant
01-03-2012, 15:44
You will hear constantly how people won't play you, or how your opponent won't have fun. After facing the same with my Daemons i say poppycock to that. I never once had a single complaint made to me by my opponent, and i lost more times than i'd care to mention.

I actually did know a couple people who picked up Daemons during 7th. One of them was the wife of a good friend, who built a Slaanesh themed list. Absolutely no problems there... if anything that was one of the more tolerable lists to play against. However a couple of other guys I knew made some more competitive lists. One guy mixed Khorne and Tzeentch and steamrolled most opponents. Another friend of mine opted for pure Tzeentch, and only lost once when another friend tailored up a Dwarf list designed to utterly stop him cold. In any case, it didn't take long at my local GW before players stopped playing against a few of those Daemon players. Nothing bad was ever said to their face. Everyone was still a good sport, because people generally are when in person. But the army quickly became notorious for being 'unenjoyable to play against'. At which point those players who had built particularly competitive daemon armies, were left with playing themselves.

Basically what I'm saying is, people generally will not say anything rude to your face (well, those with tact at least). And like Daemons, Grey Knights are only really a problem if you're specifically trying to build a competitive list or a "no fun zone" list (i.e. purifier spam, because you know your Ork-noob opponent runs 120+ Choppa/Sluggas). Just don't be surprised when potential pick-up game opponents politely decline your offer for a game.

Konovalev
01-03-2012, 16:04
Just because you've always beaten GK with your Tau does not make GK bad or for that matter Tau good. Tau are regarded as now being one of, if not the weakest codex in 40k. Tau are almost universally accepted as a very sub par codex that is in dire need of an update. GK, as evidenced from this thread alone, a stupidly overpowered codex that pisses over even the top tier 40k lists.

If you can, as you claim, consistently beat GK with your Tau, then my hat goes off to you. But don't go judging the power of a list based on the competency of your opponents.

You need to understand that GK are not the be all end all most powerful army in all creation ever, with honors. I play Tau as well and have never had a problem with GK armies. Blood Angels are what give me trouble as Tau.

Just because Tau have a weak codex, doesn't mean that there are no good matches for them. Grey Knights happen to be a good match for Tau. To Tau, much like IG, GK are just overly expensive marines. Tau don't care if you have power weapons and +1 str in every squad, Tau will get butchered in cc regardless. On the other hand, Tau can spam plasma and lay down a withering amount of anti-tank/transport fire, which when you consider GK's reliance on psyriflemen, makes GK a shooting gallery for Tau.

Kevlar
01-03-2012, 16:25
You need to understand that GK are not the be all end all most powerful army in all creation ever, with honors. I play Tau as well and have never had a problem with GK armies. Blood Angels are what give me trouble as Tau.

Just because Tau have a weak codex, doesn't mean that there are no good matches for them. Grey Knights happen to be a good match for Tau. To Tau, much like IG, GK are just overly expensive marines. Tau don't care if you have power weapons and +1 str in every squad, Tau will get butchered in cc regardless. On the other hand, Tau can spam plasma and lay down a withering amount of anti-tank/transport fire, which when you consider GK's reliance on psyriflemen, makes GK a shooting gallery for Tau.

Tau fold in close combat to guardsman so it isn't really surprising that they can cope with grey knights. Grey knights die to mass firepower just as quickly as any other MEQ army. Tau don't even pretend to want to get into assaults, so one of the strongest parts of grey knight's rules doesn't affect them in the least. All the force weapons and hammerhands and halberds are meaningless to Tau. To a Tau army they are just space marines with a lower model count.

Menthak
01-03-2012, 19:35
Grey knights are the worst thing to happen to 40k ever (Besides blood angels) in my opinion the Daemonhunter codex was fairer and more fun to play/play against. I'm very close to simply refusing to play against GK in my games club. Having said that, I remember one game where my Kroot tore apart a very smug GK players assassin in one game.

Spider-pope
01-03-2012, 19:44
Grey knights are the worst thing to happen to 40k ever (Besides blood angels) in my opinion the Daemonhunter codex was fairer and more fun to play/play against. I'm very close to simply refusing to play against GK in my games club. Having said that, I remember one game where my Kroot tore apart a very smug GK players assassin in one game.

As a Daemonhunter player i can assure you that army was not fair when you were the person playing it. It was a very weak armylist by the end of its lifespan. I'd also argue against them being the worst thing to happen to 40k. For me that would be the decision to make 3rd editions codexes pamphlets, something that the game is still recovering from.

I would say to you though don't simply refuse to play Grey Knights. The only thing that'll achieve is to alienate the Grey Knights players at your club, it'll ultimately solve nothing and likely cause ill feelings. I would instead recommend talking to the Grey Knight players, maybe make some house rules to make their armies fit your clubs playing style better.

Kevlar
01-03-2012, 20:12
I'd like to see some of the big independant tournaments ban GK. Show GW that their sell moar models strategy won't be tolerated.

althathir
01-03-2012, 20:15
I actually did know a couple people who picked up Daemons during 7th. One of them was the wife of a good friend, who built a Slaanesh themed list. Absolutely no problems there... if anything that was one of the more tolerable lists to play against. However a couple of other guys I knew made some more competitive lists. One guy mixed Khorne and Tzeentch and steamrolled most opponents. Another friend of mine opted for pure Tzeentch, and only lost once when another friend tailored up a Dwarf list designed to utterly stop him cold. In any case, it didn't take long at my local GW before players stopped playing against a few of those Daemon players. Nothing bad was ever said to their face. Everyone was still a good sport, because people generally are when in person. But the army quickly became notorious for being 'unenjoyable to play against'. At which point those players who had built particularly competitive daemon armies, were left with playing themselves.

Basically what I'm saying is, people generally will not say anything rude to your face (well, those with tact at least). And like Daemons, Grey Knights are only really a problem if you're specifically trying to build a competitive list or a "no fun zone" list (i.e. purifier spam, because you know your Ork-noob opponent runs 120+ Choppa/Sluggas). Just don't be surprised when potential pick-up game opponents politely decline your offer for a game.

In all fairness though, thats a pretty passive aggressive way of handling a situation. Its actually one of the things that frustrates me the most about this hobby, people get together play a game and decide someone is playing with a cheese list, and instead of saying that it would more fun if they bring a toned down list they just blacklist them without explaining why. It would make for a much better community if people would just talk for 5 minutes before the game, and try to set up a match they both can enjoy.


Grey knights are the worst thing to happen to 40k ever (Besides blood angels) in my opinion the Daemonhunter codex was fairer and more fun to play/play against. I'm very close to simply refusing to play against GK in my games club. Having said that, I remember one game where my Kroot tore apart a very smug GK players assassin in one game.

Daemonhunters was a fairly weak army unless your talking about the imp guard lists with Daemon hunter allies. GK are strong but there have been armies that were stronger the 3.5 chaos book still gives me nightmares. I don't think refusing to play againist a certain army is a great long term plan, just tell them you play a dated codex and that it'll be more fun for both of you if they tone down their list. Honestly when Tau get updated you might be in their shoes.

Lord Damocles
01-03-2012, 20:16
I'd like to see some of the big independant tournaments ban GK. Show GW that their sell moar models strategy won't be tolerated.
...which would affect such a pathetically small proportion of GW's customer base that they really wouldn't care.

Herod
01-03-2012, 20:29
Gk are fine, they are a strong codex, but no worse then SW/IG...


I wish I could "like" this post, as it is in lock step with my feelings on GK.

Much of the internet clamor is laughable because it lumps everything the codex has into one imaginary build that doesn't exist.

H

BBWags
01-03-2012, 20:30
As I mentioned before, I'm pretty out of touch with the current meta, but isn't it true that a number of current races can spam their best units and turn the game into an exercise of frustration for their opponent? This is an assumption at the moment, but maybe someone can back it up?

I would probably collect enough (if I collected at all) to field both a "friendly" GK list, like the one I posted above, as well as a hardcore list, just to see how far I could stretch the "few against the many" idea. Also, sometimes you meet someone else who just says, "bring it, no holds barred.". When both players have that mentality, the game really can be fun as well.

But the friendly style list would certainly be my default choice :-)

Spider-pope
01-03-2012, 20:53
I'd like to see some of the big independant tournaments ban GK. Show GW that their sell moar models strategy won't be tolerated.

What precisely would that accomplish except alienating players? The armies will still have been bought, GW would still get their money, and the net result would be a bunch of pissed off players angry at the tournament organisers, which would only hurt future attendance. After all if they ban Grey Knights this time, who knows whether or not your army will be the next to be declared unacceptable.

althathir
01-03-2012, 21:25
I'd like to see some of the big independant tournaments ban GK. Show GW that their sell moar models strategy won't be tolerated.

I think this is silly, i mean after you ban GK, are you gonna ban IG, SW, BA as well? GK are really good but they aren't as bad as some of the top books from the past, and 6th may have some negative effectives on them that bring them more in line. Off the top of my head if you scored VPs for holding objectives per turn, and you couldn't be embarked when you it did it, alot of GK, and MSU lists would struggle.


As I mentioned before, I'm pretty out of touch with the current meta, but isn't it true that a number of current races can spam their best units and turn the game into an exercise of frustration for their opponent? This is an assumption at the moment, but maybe someone can back it up?

I would probably collect enough (if I collected at all) to field both a "friendly" GK list, like the one I posted above, as well as a hardcore list, just to see how far I could stretch the "few against the many" idea. Also, sometimes you meet someone else who just says, "bring it, no holds barred.". When both players have that mentality, the game really can be fun as well.

But the friendly style list would certainly be my default choice :-)

Spamming does occur units like long fangs, and psy riflemen are good examples. In competitive play there really isn't any stigma, in casual play there is (even if what your spamming is bad). Having the models to do both is ideal (I tend to just count my grey hunters as blood claws it tones wolfs down fairly fast). That said talking to your opponents before the game really takes care of most of these problems more so if your willing to think outside the box and be flexible.

GrogDaTyrant
01-03-2012, 21:36
After all if they ban Grey Knights this time, who knows whether or not your army will be the next to be declared unacceptable.

Way back when GW was still running their own grand tournaments (4+ years ago), there was a huge deal about which armies would be 'acceptable' during that go-around. The old Lizardmen book had a Southlands list that was quickly banned from tournaments. Likewise the Chapter Approved list for the Kroot Mercenary army was up in the air most of the time.

The one to impact me the most, was when they were on the fence about the Ork Clans. It took them roughly 2 years of saying "No... we're not sure about these, so we're banning them this year" before they finally made a decision and allowed them, for the last year of the GT circuit, right before they were all made obsolete by a fresh (sub-par) Ork codex.

Banning armies that are deemed 'too much' in a tournament, isn't exactly a new idea.

Spider-pope
01-03-2012, 21:57
Way back when GW was still running their own grand tournaments (4+ years ago), there was a huge deal about which armies would be 'acceptable' during that go-around. The old Lizardmen book had a Southlands list that was quickly banned from tournaments. Likewise the Chapter Approved list for the Kroot Mercenary army was up in the air most of the time.

The one to impact me the most, was when they were on the fence about the Ork Clans. It took them roughly 2 years of saying "No... we're not sure about these, so we're banning them this year" before they finally made a decision and allowed them, for the last year of the GT circuit, right before they were all made obsolete by a fresh (sub-par) Ork codex.

Banning armies that are deemed 'too much' in a tournament, isn't exactly a new idea.

The fact it has some precedence doesn't make it a good idea though. When you couldn't use your army, did you stop playing the army or did you feel annoyed that the tournament banned your chosen force?

Kevlar
01-03-2012, 22:02
You wouldn't be banned from the tournaments though. Your Grey Marines would just be Iron hands or grey ultramarines... Ban the book, not the models.

KeyOfTwilight
01-03-2012, 22:11
Or, uh, learn2play your army and beat the snot out of everyone with it. It's not that hard to win with any of the armies if you know what you're doing. We have a guy at our store by me who can whoop any army he faces with a footdar army. Why? He knows each army's weak points and their strongpoints, as well as those for his own army. He knows how to use whatever army he builds to defeat any foe. Why can't you beat grey knights? maybe because you go at it thinking the same "oh, grey knights, not them!"

Seriously, people, we don't need to ban units or armies.

althathir
01-03-2012, 22:13
You wouldn't be banned from the tournaments though. Your Grey Marines would just be Iron hands or grey ultramarines... Ban the book, not the models.

What ultramarine unit has stormbolters and force weapons/power weapons?

I'd much rather see some form of comp that restricts spamming, or like I suggested earlier better mission design that curbs MSU a bit. Than just ban an armythat people dropped a ton of money on.

Spider-pope
01-03-2012, 22:23
You wouldn't be banned from the tournaments though. Your Grey Marines would just be Iron hands or grey ultramarines... Ban the book, not the models.

Well i wouldnt be banned at all, since i don't collect Grey Knights. I sold my Daemonhunters after reading the Grey Knights book because i didnt like the way the fluff was altered.
But again, you're still punishing the player not the cause. In fact your version would be even less effective, because there would be no drop in miniature sales at all.

druchii
01-03-2012, 22:53
Man up and call me out specifically, or don't make snarky comments at all. ;)

As Grimtuff pointed out, having 2+ invulnerable saves in CC is pretty damn nice. While the Grey Knights have relatively mediocre ++ saves - if at all.

I'm curious to hear about your professional gaming experience though, since you're clearly leagues above the rest of us.

If this were a thread about demons vs GKs I'd point out how AWFUL khorne demons are against any single other army (so you're making a list JUST to beat GKs? Have fun playing any other army).

Or how you have to get through TONS of psycannons/razorbacks/psyflemen dreads. You know GKs do things other than fight stuff in CC, right?

I'd be curious to hear YOUR experience even playing demons (especially khorne demons) against GKs, or any other army for that matter. Heck, take a gander at the demon tactica thread in my signature and see how many of the players who have been playing demons for like three years think demons fare against them.

Just because I called your comment asinine doesn't mean "I'm leagues above the rest of you", just capable of rational thought.

Snarky enough?

d

Bunnahabhain
02-03-2012, 11:47
Or, uh, learn2play your army and beat the snot out of everyone with it. .


The plural of anecdote is data.

A few people complaining isn't important.
Many experienced players saying Grey knights are more powerful than most or all other armies, and easier to build and play well than most/all forces, and present hard counters to several otherwise vaible lists... now that starts to look like a pattern.

As a simple example, I consider myself a fairly expereinced player, and I have run a variety of Guard lists for several editions. Assuming roughly equal skill levels, I can beat Grey Knights, if I use a mechanised list of some kind. I've tried my foot lists (which are otherwise fairly successful) against them a few times, and never got close to winning...

This kind of measured, detailed, non hyperbolic feedback en masse say Grey knights are too powerful at the moment, compared to the rest.

KeyOfTwilight
02-03-2012, 17:08
The plural of anecdote is data.

A few people complaining isn't important.
Many experienced players saying Grey knights are more powerful than most or all other armies, and easier to build and play well than most/all forces, and present hard counters to several otherwise vaible lists... now that starts to look like a pattern.

As a simple example, I consider myself a fairly expereinced player, and I have run a variety of Guard lists for several editions. Assuming roughly equal skill levels, I can beat Grey Knights, if I use a mechanised list of some kind. I've tried my foot lists (which are otherwise fairly successful) against them a few times, and never got close to winning...

This kind of measured, detailed, non hyperbolic feedback en masse say Grey knights are too powerful at the moment, compared to the rest.

If we listened to what we couldn't do, where would the world be today? Keep at it and you'll find a way to beat it. remember also that the internet is a small percentage of what constitutes the hobby as a whole.

Spider-pope
02-03-2012, 19:41
The plural of anecdote is data.

The plural of anecdote is anecdotal data.



A few people complaining isn't important.
Many experienced players saying Grey knights are more powerful than most or all other armies, and easier to build and play well than most/all forces, and present hard counters to several otherwise vaible lists... now that starts to look like a pattern.


Presumably you've polled the entire playerbase of 40k then, to make these claims. You cannot take a relative handful of complaints, compared to the number of people actually playing the game, and extrapolate a pattern and consensus amongst all players.



As a simple example, I consider myself a fairly expereinced player, and I have run a variety of Guard lists for several editions. Assuming roughly equal skill levels, I can beat Grey Knights, if I use a mechanised list of some kind. I've tried my foot lists (which are otherwise fairly successful) against them a few times, and never got close to winning...

Well done. Nice anecdote. And other people have detailed anecdotes of their own saying they've pounded the Grey Knights into the dirt. Neither is more valid than the other.



This kind of measured, detailed, non hyperbolic feedback en masse say Grey knights are too powerful at the moment, compared to the rest.

Now i agree that Grey Knights are overpowered, along with the fluff its one of the reasons i didnt decide to carry on playing them. But that was a personal choice based on my own judgement and experience. To insist that others should be bound by it is folly.

fubukii
02-03-2012, 19:53
THis is 5th edition foot lists arent very good. You have to play mech and you stated when you play mech you win vs gk. IF you lose while taking a subpar list thats not the other players fault. You have Some of the BEST choices in the game. Vendettas, manticores, melta vets, THe leman russ with the special char that does 20 str 6 shots, out flanking platoons you name it. IF you choose to ignore those choices and run bad things thats on you.

Bunnahabhain
02-03-2012, 20:51
There is a big difference between a sub par list, and a list that does fine against most competitive lists.

And including the Leman Russ Punisher with Pask in the most powerful unit list... it would be a steaming **** of a unit in the CSM book, let alone the Guard book.

Freman Bloodglaive
02-03-2012, 21:02
Imperial Guard are generally accepted as having the strongest army at present. Grey Knights are, against most enemies, the second strongest. They do have bad match-ups, as against (ironically) Tau, but most armies will find fighting them an uphill battle.

That said, true 5th edition armies like Dark Eldar and Necrons do seem to have counters to them. Marine armies suffer because while every troop unit in the Grey Knights are useful, Marine troops aren't, and that is because the equipment and options for them are still based on 2nd edition from 20 years ago.

fubukii
02-03-2012, 23:55
There is a big difference between a sub par list, and a list that does fine against most competitive lists.

And including the Leman Russ Punisher with Pask in the most powerful unit list... it would be a steaming **** of a unit in the CSM book, let alone the Guard book.

It pretty much kills any Light transport (razorback equiv) Gets about 2-3 glances vs armor 12, or shreds the units inside with alot of bs4 shots. Its totally a really good unit for sure! I have seen alot of people use them in their guard armies, And i must say they have been doing very well.

BBWags
03-03-2012, 00:41
I have my answers and I appreciate everyone's input. Unfortunately, the conversation now will likely just turn into a couple people yelling at each other, so I think maybe I'll just close the thread . . . thanks again to everyone who gave objective feedback! It's much appreciated!