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View Full Version : What is the general opinion of tyranids right now?



antin3
01-03-2012, 15:45
I love the new models coming out and I have a few painted up somewhere here in my apartment. But I keep reading that they are trash, is that true or just overreaction? What is your opinion?

Dreadlordpaul
01-03-2012, 15:50
I think it depends on what you use against them my mono nurgle csm army struggles against them but my foot slogging DE army lols at them

Spider-pope
01-03-2012, 15:52
They still shred my Daemons, and now they have fancy pants new models to do it in style.

vstag
01-03-2012, 15:57
I started playing them a few months ago and I got to say I love to play them, and there not as bad as the internet makes them out to be, but they do have a little bit of a up hill battle going for them. A few things just hurt them more then other armys and they do have bad balance inside its own book, but if you know what your doing and play smart you can do just fine with them. Still if somebody is whanting to play to win then they should pick a diffrent army, but I think I have had more fun playing my bugs then my IG or BA armys.

leonmallett
01-03-2012, 16:36
As a long time Tyranid player, the thing that disappoints me is the horde concept just seems to unworkable to me to be anywhere near survivable or effective. To avoid this requires compromise or specific choices to compensate, thus moving away from massed horde to lower model count alternatives.

That may be just me being a rubbish player though!

Vampiric16
01-03-2012, 16:43
I've been playing them for nigh on 10 years now, and I've never looked back. I'll admit the current codex was a bit of a disapointment (more to do with the lack of effort than anything), but I still get a kick out of my bugs.

ReveredChaplainDrake
01-03-2012, 16:46
Specifically, Tyranids have it rough against armies with fast and/or numerous transports, long-ranged psychic defense, instant death infliction, and basically anybody with units more points-efficient than theirs. At their best, they're alright against Orks, Daemons, Chaos Marines and Tau. Basically, the only armies Tyranids excel against are the "bad" ones, while they suffer against all the "good" ones (GK, SW, IG). If the locals aren't that meta and you have a ton of $$$ to throw around, you could try them. Tyranids just can't bring it the way other armies can, and it always feels like you're trying to fight against your own army's flaws rather than against your opponent's army's strengths when you attempt to bring it. Tyranids also have some horribly exploitable achilles' heels for their best units, from their crutch-like dependence on psychic powers to high-toughness high-wound monsters in a meta with armies designed to spam poison and force weapons.

That said, compared to other meta armies, Tyranids suffer the least against the Newcrons, who seem to thrive against the kinds of transport troll lists that give Tyranids problems. Tyranids could wind up a whole new army (though still horribly flawed) in 6th edition, which is said to debut sometime this July.

Oppressor
01-03-2012, 16:49
They suffer from no AV, and horrible armor saves which means they must pray for craptons of cover on the board to go anywhere. If you take a venomthrope, it gets targetted and taken out seperately, and takes up elite slots that are the domain of your only reliable AT spam.

Draconis
01-03-2012, 21:14
Specifically, Tyranids have it rough against armies with fast and/or numerous transports, long-ranged psychic defense, instant death infliction, and basically anybody with units more points-efficient than theirs. At their best, they're alright against Orks, Daemons, Chaos Marines and Tau. Basically, the only armies Tyranids excel against are the "bad" ones, while they suffer against all the "good" ones (GK, SW, IG). If the locals aren't that meta and you have a ton of $$$ to throw around, you could try them. Tyranids just can't bring it the way other armies can, and it always feels like you're trying to fight against your own army's flaws rather than against your opponent's army's strengths when you attempt to bring it. Tyranids also have some horribly exploitable achilles' heels for their best units, from their crutch-like dependence on psychic powers to high-toughness high-wound monsters in a meta with armies designed to spam poison and force weapons.

That said, compared to other meta armies, Tyranids suffer the least against the Newcrons, who seem to thrive against the kinds of transport troll lists that give Tyranids problems. Tyranids could wind up a whole new army (though still horribly flawed) in 6th edition, which is said to debut sometime this July.

This guy said it. Nail on the head. It's a fun army, and I tend to dominate where I play. But thats because nobody plays seriously. I just rush forward and crush things. I still use lictors and carnifex and still win so..... However, in a competitive area, nids are going to suffer bad and it's going to seem unfair. However, with the arrival of Crons and hopefully their ability to destroy transports, I hope it reshapes the meta so that the nids can thrive.

Captain Collius
01-03-2012, 21:20
with a very good player in a friendly enviroment nids work other than that they have trouble

Hicks
01-03-2012, 21:58
I love the concept of the army, the minis are great, but they really don't compete with the newer codices.

MajorWesJanson
01-03-2012, 22:30
Doom is broken.
Special Characters could have been implemented better.
Overuse of special rules for every entry
Warrior prime should be an upgrade for one model in a Warrior brood, not a single model entry. This would build in a retinue.
Dropped too many biomorphs- 4th had a few too many, 5th has too few
Lack of mid strength firepower for dealing with transports
Carnifexes bumped in price too much- Combined with Biomorph dropping. Should start at say 100 points with lesser stats, and allow biomorphs to be added to bump it's stats and abilities.
Pyrovore ought to have the option for a heavy flamer attack like now, or a multimelta equivalent.

Kitwises, they ought to combine Hive Guard and Tyrant Guard into a plastic three-pack, maybe with some new/additional CC weapon options for tyrant guard.
Pyrovore/Biovore ought to be a squad unit box of 2-3 in plastic.
Zoanthrope/Venomthrope/Doom box of 2-3 makes sense
Make Shrikes more distinct than just Warriors with wings, and do a 3 box with parts for Parasite.

ekiander
02-03-2012, 00:00
As a long time Tyranid player, the thing that disappoints me is the horde concept just seems to unworkable to me to be anywhere near survivable or effective. To avoid this requires compromise or specific choices to compensate, thus moving away from massed horde to lower model count alternatives.

That may be just me being a rubbish player though!

This is my big pet peeve. I can live with something a bit underpowered but a horde foot slogging army is what I think of when I think of Nids and it just doesn't work at all.

Disturbed Frog
02-03-2012, 04:12
Doom is broken.
Special Characters could have been implemented better.
Overuse of special rules for every entry
Warrior prime should be an upgrade for one model in a Warrior brood, not a single model entry. This would build in a retinue.
Dropped too many biomorphs- 4th had a few too many, 5th has too few
Lack of mid strength firepower for dealing with transports
Carnifexes bumped in price too much- Combined with Biomorph dropping. Should start at say 100 points with lesser stats, and allow biomorphs to be added to bump it's stats and abilities.
Pyrovore ought to have the option for a heavy flamer attack like now, or a multimelta equivalent.

Kitwises, they ought to combine Hive Guard and Tyrant Guard into a plastic three-pack, maybe with some new/additional CC weapon options for tyrant guard.
Pyrovore/Biovore ought to be a squad unit box of 2-3 in plastic.
Zoanthrope/Venomthrope/Doom box of 2-3 makes sense
Make Shrikes more distinct than just Warriors with wings, and do a 3 box with parts for Parasite.

Are you off your face? Zoaonthrope / venomthrope combi kit? Aside from both having thrope in there name and being top heavy they have no other simularaties and as I like the current models I would not want them to make them look similar just so they can be a combi kit!

Laughingmonk
02-03-2012, 05:18
Tyranids now have a huge array of models, and beg for customization and innovation. Collector-wise, they are very fun to collect and generally are awesome to field, as they are rife with big monsters and gribbly troops.

Game-wise, they are flawed. They are very good in several areas, such as anti infantry firepower, footslogging speed (almost the entire army has 'move through cover' and many units have fleet), infiltration/outflanking, and their entire army can be made to deepstrike (by either flight or mycetic spore) very easily (which, for nids, can be a good thing, situation permitting). In addition, the entire army is fearless (under synaptic control).

Unfortunately, many of these abilities are either easily mitigated or highly situational, as many of them just aren't that great to have in 5th edition. The fact is, transports are very good, and tyranids don't have them. It wouldn't be big deal if tyranids had decent ranged anti-tank, but they lack that as well, as many of the units they have for that purpose are either horrendously expensive (T-fex) or fragile (zoanthropes, harpy). Even the vaunted hive guard aren't enough, and often come with the added price of severely clogging your elites section. Fast footslogging through terrain is good, but completely countered by the fact that assault grenades are conspicuously absent from most units, denying you your high initiative (which is devastating, as tyranids often lack decent armor saves). Fearless is also good, but with 'no retreat' you will suffer double casualties, which means you can't tarpit effectively much of the time.


However, tyranids are still very fun to play. The fact is, there are many players who don't use optimized lists, or even play the top three. The question you should ask yourself is what you want out of your army. If you want to win tournaments, and that is the main reason you play, and derive most of your pleasure from defeating highly skilled opponents with optimized lists, then tyranids right now are probably not for you. The book is flawed. If you love the figures though, then go for it. Like I tell all new players, books and editions come and go. Models are what you blow your money on, and spend your time painting and assembling. So play the army you like the idea of.

That being said, tyranids are by no means harmless. They can, and will, devastate someone who makes a mistake or brings an army that isn't prepared to fight you. They can't deal with transport spam, but they can deal with more modest amounts of vehicles just fine. They have decent selections in every slot, which is more than can be said for many armies, and often bring at least one of every slot. An an unoptimized environment, tyranids have a lot flexibility in the types of lists they can play. Aside from the tervigon-spam and stealer shock, tyranids can also deploy swarms, flight lists, mycetic drop armies, vanguard assaults, and my favorite, warrior-wing (like a tyranid deathwing, using lots of elite infantry like warriors, ravenors, shrikes, biovores, hive guard, etc.). They can be themed to play many different ways in this way, so you will busy experimenting and collecting.

To wrap it up, I'd just like to point out that many, many players choose to play sub-optimal armies. Thousand sons players NEVER had a good list. Deathwing/ravenwing has always been hard. Other players choose more esoteric themes, like all SM scout armies or haemonculus coven. Why? Because they love their armies! Think about that before writing them off. I've been playing since beginning of third (technically second, but I didn't collect then), and have probably collected/sold off almost every army in the game since than, in multiple editions, a decade of gaming. Tyranids have given more fun, even in 5th, even with their flaws, than eldar, chaos, tau, Vanilla SM, Space wolves, Witch hunters, and Demon hunters. They're awesome, fun, and unique. The book is trash. Tyranids are not!

Plus, 6th is coming. If even half of the rumors are true...

Soon my gribblies...... SOON

chebba98
02-03-2012, 05:44
i have been playing them for a while now and i love them, they are the easiest army to play in my opinion of the armies i have which are necrons, daemons, and just started orks. now that the new models are coming out im pumped to play with them again and so ive been going painting crazy my old tyranids, but as far as how well they do i usually win with them and lose with my other armies more. they are the army i use when i really wanna win, and i no ppl say the suck against some or the more crazy races but ive still beatin sw, ba, de, and gk alot(maybe gk just was cause the player sucked but still).

nedius
02-03-2012, 08:38
The points about the army have been well covered, so won't rehash other than to agree with the 'Cool models; Flawed Army' point of view.

Another thing to consider is that many players will, even with the new model releases, be left with a bitter taste in their mouth that it's taken so long to get them. It's nice to see 'nids not entirely abandoned, but I don't feel it's enough to outright wipe away the bitterness many gamers will feel at having been left in the lurch for so long.

Here's my take on the new releases:

Tervigon/tyranofex - great kit! Will buy at least one, if not two.

Hive Tryant kit - REALLY great kit! Won't but one, as I don't need one, but it is a cool kit, none the less.

Warrior Upgrade sprues: Made me laugh out loud. Honestly did. It took GW over two years, with all their model making expereince, to do what several small bits companies did in a couple of months. And some of them did it better. Nice to have them though, and if in future GW could get their rear in gear and get such things out promptly, could be a good little bits line.

On going issues:

Where are the mycetic spores, warrior primes, etc? Why no new warrior kit to make warriors/shrikes, as with the latest vampire releases (vargeist etc)?

angelofrage
02-03-2012, 10:59
Always had a soft spot for the Tyranid miniatures, but it's only since seeing the new releases that I'm considering starting up a force. Hoping to pick up a Swarmlord tomorrow to assemble and paint as a test. In terms of gaming, I only play against friends so don't need to be super competitive, also starting from scratch gives me the option to build a list from the ground up.

Chapters Unwritten
02-03-2012, 14:07
The book is really spastic. It screams to me of a draft that needed some more revisions and got pushed out early. The models are great and the army is only slightly below average but I have always attributed this entirely to the fact that the book has a huge variety of weird effects you have to remember to utilize and plan around.

nedius
06-03-2012, 21:48
Saw an interesting thing in GW Cambridge today.

Wolf stuff - Lotsa had gone - all the thunderwolves, most of the wolf lord on thunder wolf etc.

Nids? The arms had gone. They still had 14 Tervigons, and plenty of hive tyrants. It looked like maybe a few had sold, and very few tervigons, if any.

Telling.

silverstu
06-03-2012, 23:13
That's a shame- they look like great kits- I plan on getting a couple as funds allow. I wasn't really sold on the tervigon and tyrannofex in the book- but the new kit just looks so mean I have to get a couple [irrespective of how they perform in game].

They are a great army to collect model wise- great opportunity for kit bashing and conversions, loads of character- you just have to watch aliens and Starship Troopers to get you in the mood!

antin3
07-03-2012, 07:46
Thanks for all the replies- I play in more friendly environments so the tournament thing doesn't really mean much to me. I have just always loved the models and the new ones are really nice. Besides I am hoping that 6thy will do for nids what 8th did for some of the armies in WF...here's hoping.

AlphariusOmegon20
07-03-2012, 08:09
Saw an interesting thing in GW Cambridge today.

Wolf stuff - Lotsa had gone - all the thunderwolves, most of the wolf lord on thunder wolf etc.

Nids? The arms had gone. They still had 14 Tervigons, and plenty of hive tyrants. It looked like maybe a few had sold, and very few tervigons, if any.

Telling.

The only thing it's telling is GW waited too long to put the Tervigon out. Most people that ran them already have a model to use for it. Same goes for the Hive Tyrants. if GW wants to sell these models, the best thing they could do to jump start sales would be to fix the FAQ and/or book.

The Twolves they got lucky with, it was almost too late for them too. Fortunately, the Twolf sculpts are so good, it's jump started a few Wolf armies that people didn't have before. That goes for Fen Wolves too.

Harald Deathwolf is just too good of a sculpt to pass up and when next to Canis, makes Canis' sculpt look better IMO.

-Loki-
07-03-2012, 09:05
Thanks for all the replies- I play in more friendly environments so the tournament thing doesn't really mean much to me. I have just always loved the models and the new ones are really nice.

This is the situation I'm in. My firends don't play super competitive (one even plays Dark Eldar Wych spam, and struggles to draw against my bugs). I went in it for the models mostly, and I'm having a lot of fun with them.

Grocklock
07-03-2012, 17:29
Nids are a great arny to play ever sice watching starship troopers with the baser assult, played a senario after watching it and was amazing, are bugs compeltative yes are they fun hell ya, so for all intensinperpose why not play them, will they take some time to work out a playing style yes, but this is a good thing.

But i will finish on a word, to people who read these kind of posts despite what people will tell you the best thing you can do is try it, try different armies out, try the things out that people clam are not good. When people say that it doesnt work it usually means they couldn't get it to work for them not that it doesn't work.

Grocklock
07-03-2012, 17:31
Nids are a great arny to play ever sice watching starship troopers with the baser assult, played a senario after watching it and was amazing, are bugs compeltative yes are they fun hell ya, so for all intensinperpose why not play them, will they take some time to work out a playing style yes, but this is a good thing.

But i will finish on a word, to people who read these kind of posts despite what people will tell you the best thing you can do is try it, try different armies out, try the things out that people clam are not good. When people say that it doesnt work it usually means they couldn't get it to work for them not that it doesn't work.

Megad00mer
07-03-2012, 17:55
General opinion of Tyranids right now seems to be "Cool models, too bad the Codex is crap, otherwise I'd start em."

Tyranids are easily the worst Codex of 5th edition. I personally feel it's the worst Codex release in GW history. The models are awesome though, and in a casual friendly atmosphere you can still have some fun. I know I do. Just avoid tournaments like the plague and if you play vs Grey Knights, try to laugh at the sheer ridiculous way they dominate you in every phase of the game. :rolleyes:

Obake123
07-03-2012, 17:55
I find the army a lot of fun to play, as I love an all reserves army. With Tyranids, I have outflanking, deepstriking, tunnelling and dormant broods coming in all over the place.

What frustrates me is that with just a little more TLC and ideas being thought better (Trygon Tunnels, Lictors, and so on) then the army could really have come together.

Anf for an army with so much (theoretical) mutability, the Codex is seriously bland and makes an uninspiring read.

Balerion
07-03-2012, 22:14
so for all intensinperpose why not play them
Oh, wow. You are to language what a Hive Fleet is to biological matter and DNA. Realigning, recombining, amalgamating, recreating... perfecting.

;)

Draconis
08-03-2012, 01:14
Why play the bugs? Click on my painting blog below and find out. The models offer more conversion than any other I know and are fun to play. They can be tournie worthy in the right hands, but only if you play a very tight specific list. And that list is more geared towards surviving than killing your enemy.

Azzy
08-03-2012, 02:12
I love the models and said that I wouldn't touch them until the release the hive tyrant in plastic... Now that they have, it's only a matter of allocating funds as finances allow. :) Probably go with some warriors, raveners, a trygon and a Tfex afterwards as funds permit.

There are so many cool models, I don't play with super-competitive people, and... well, the models are just really good. :D

nedius
08-03-2012, 08:13
The only thing it's telling is GW waited too long to put the Tervigon out. Most people that ran them already have a model to use for it. Same goes for the Hive Tyrants. if GW wants to sell these models, the best thing they could do to jump start sales would be to fix the FAQ and/or book.

The Twolves they got lucky with, it was almost too late for them too. Fortunately, the Twolf sculpts are so good, it's jump started a few Wolf armies that people didn't have before. That goes for Fen Wolves too.

Harald Deathwolf is just too good of a sculpt to pass up and when next to Canis, makes Canis' sculpt look better IMO.

I agree with that - but I don't think that is all. Megad00mer was also right - the perception of the codex is that it is not top flight. Yes, the models are cool, but they waited so long to release them most 'nid fans converted up their own, and only some of those will dump their lovingly (or begrudgingly) converted tervigons, tyrannofexes and tyrants for the new kits.

However, add to that a widely held perception that whilst nids are still fun, they're not on an equal footing with the other 5th ed releases, and you have a situation where cool models are left sat on shelves.

And... what will poor model sales do to the army? From what I remember, armies that end up with long term poor model sales drop off the radar for years. That perception may put of even more new players. More models left on shelves... And you get a nasty little circle.

I still love tyranids; the race, the concept. I just worry that poor handling by GW will leave them in a sorry state for many years to come.

silverstu
08-03-2012, 09:19
I think the love of the model range and fluff can you quite well- it doesn't matter how super powered an army is- I'm not going to collect them if I don't love the fluff and the models.
I think Nid players will end up buying the new kits- they just won't be in a big rush if they have their own conversions so it may be a bit more of a slower burn.
The "poor sales" thing -I'm not so worried about as from what I have read that's not how the studio works- it's more a question of having designers keen to develop/work on a faction. In that case I would say that Nids are well served as Phil Kelly and Jes Goodwin would be passionate enough about them. There are some great ideas in the new book- the expanded range of critters for example. If it was rewritten and taken forward I think it would be an excellent codex- fixing a codex is a cheap fix- some of the other codexes which have languished have done mainly through a limited plastic model range. The Nids have a fantastic range so would be worth investing in a codex rewrite so GW could capitalise on this- kick-ass codex= lot's of sales of existing kits.
I'd love to see Phil redo this codex- fix and expand upon the ideas in it and replace/rework the fluff. It's funny- the new fluff just doesn't have the atmosphere of the old stuff. I re-read some of the little bits in the 3rd ed codex and they had more atmosphere than the larger pieces in the new one.
So basically any problems the kids have could be fixed with a codex rewrite - which in GW terms is not a massive investment to boost sales of a strong model range so longer term Nid fans have little to fear.

samiens
08-03-2012, 12:53
Nids struggle against multiple vehicles, tbh their other weaknesses are pretty similar to other armies (they don't like str 8 much). So really I think whether they can be effective is a matter of personal style (and finding a list that suits that style) and whether you an deal with the volume of vehicles at a level. Nids struggle at higher points levels as they max out their anti-Av (err... Hive guard) very quickly while other armies bring more and more tanks.

admittedly im biased (my wife is a highly competent tournament nid player) but its not quite as doom and gloom as people suggest- although if you have a crazily competitive meta in terms of list building and can't handle a hirrible learning curve I would avoid them
Sent from my 7 Mozart using Board Express

shadowfinder
08-03-2012, 18:49
It has taken me 6 months to find a play style for my nids while my crons tke just a few weeks.

Tyranids have a bad rep. The so called bad army that is not competitive. Sorry to say this is not true. Yes the have issues with 14 tanks.. Most armys have issue with that in some way or another. It hurt big time that DE seam to have a win button vs nids. GK give them a hard time.

BA, SW,IG can be hard match ups. Personal never had much of a problem with SW, or blood angles with my nids. IG is alway a bloody fight with 50/50 score.
Tyranids have great models and seam to be doing well in the hand of a good player. Some getting in to the top 10 of many tourney. Some may say that not much. But think of this, thier was like 2-3 tryanid out out of 50 to 60 people. It is a army thats not played a lot at tourneys but that can do well.

White_13oy
08-03-2012, 19:20
I've been thinking of getting into nids and was wondering how these units do. Kinda going off of price and models I liked.

Swarmlord
3x3 warrior brood with lashwhip and bonesword, deathspitter
3x lictors
Deathleaper
Tervigon prime regeneration

This is in a 1250 point list.

Seville
08-03-2012, 19:26
I see a lot of people moan about the Tyranid dex online, but, just last Friday my supposedly "unbeatable" Blood Angels got trounced by a decent nid army.

I've always found the combination of hordes of gaunts and a bunch of big, tough, multi-wound monsters very difficult to deal with.

If you like the army, go for it. Remember that this place is called WHINESEER for a reason!

nedius
09-03-2012, 08:42
Whether YOU think they are good or not is almost immaterial compared to the fact that there IS a widely held oppinion by many others that they are not good. I'm not argueing whether they are or not any good, but that they are widely percieved to be.

Lauch two new cars, both equally good, but have one being touted as the best car ever and the other touted as being sub-parr, and I can point you in the direction of the one that won't sell, even if it is as good as the others if people will just give it a go.

Alternatively, take two equally powerful cars, but one takes 6 weeks to learn how to drive, and another takes 6 months, even if once you've learnt they are both equally good, I can still point you to the one that will be less popular, and which will be seen as worse.

vstag
09-03-2012, 12:16
I've been thinking of getting into nids and was wondering how these units do. Kinda going off of price and models I liked.

Swarmlord
3x3 warrior brood with lashwhip and bonesword, deathspitter
3x lictors
Deathleaper
Tervigon prime regeneration

This is in a 1250 point list.

Swarmdlord is great, but costs alot.
As long as you don't face many str 8 or up weapons Warriors are great, good at both shooting and CC.
Lictors are not very good, better things to spend points on, but every now and then they do cool stuff.
Deathleaper is good not great, but better then Lictors
Do you mean the Trygon or a Tervigon, both are great. Alwasy updrage the Trygon to a prime. Regen is good but not sure if worth the points as its random.

itcamefromthedeep
10-03-2012, 07:48
Tyranids are easily the worst Codex of 5th edition. I personally feel it's the worst Codex release in GW history.The 4e Chaos codex exists you know. As poor as the Tyranid book may look, it doesn't hold a candle to what happened on the Chaos end of the game.

---

Tyranids do just fine outside of the most competitive environments. In power they're roughly comparable to the 4e codex.

The book looks rushed. There's a lot of filler in the background, a number of the rules don't work the way they should and the internal balance is off (particularly with the options).

angelofrage
10-03-2012, 09:24
I've just started collecting them with the new plastic kits coming out. I love me a deathstar so Swarmlord + guard (and possibly a prime) are going to be in, plus some tervigons and trygons. I accept they're not the most powerful, but there seems to be enough in the codex that works (tervigons, trygons, hive guard, genestealers, primes, warriors, gargoyles, doom, zoenthropes, etc) to let me produce a list that will be competitive enough in my games with friends as well as giving me different options ("nidzilla" or all reserves) to try out.

Reivax26
10-03-2012, 10:00
I have a few thoughts on the matter. Nids suffer from a lot of the same problems that my Daemons do. Certain armies are really hard matchups for both armies (Dark Eldar spamming poison weapons....). Anyway, Nids have an ok codex compared to some of the armies. No they don't get transports but in a way that could help in certain games. Take a look at the Razorback spam lists for Blood Angels and Wolves. Those lists have a boat load of kill points tied up in armor 11 vehicles. Look at all the ways Nids can wreck those armies that are designed to sit back and not move. Flanking stealers, Tyranofexes, Hive Guard, anything with a Heavy Venom Cannon. I still believe that Tyranids are a very competitive army even in tournaments. Not too long ago we had a guy win back to back tournaments with his Nids. I played him in the finals of one with my Black Templars and his list was brutal. Its all about how you play them and thinking outside the box.

Panzer MkIV
10-03-2012, 12:03
My opinion of the current Tyranid Codex: Horrible internal and external balance with the clear signs of a rush job that wasn't playtested.

So...a bad codex

Also because the codex can win tournaments doesn't mean it's a good codex

Mikial
29-03-2012, 02:26
We just added Nids to our army collection (my wife liked the models and the fluff). After maybe 8 - 10 games we're doing pretty good with them. In terms of a win/loss record: several ties on kill points, a couple losses and a win. But in terms of pure fun and a very good looking army? They score a 9.5.

Having said that, I agree with the poorly thought out codex and poor list design, but overall they are a great army. Looking forward to 6th Ed.

Seville
29-03-2012, 06:03
I love the new models coming out and I have a few painted up somewhere here in my apartment. But I keep reading that they are trash, is that true or just overreaction? What is your opinion?

My general opinion of Tyranids is that the models look really awesome, they are really cool thematically, and they are a ton of fun to play as and against. They are the quintessential 40k foe.

Oh, did you mean "competitively" or whatever? Who cares?

Grimtuff
29-03-2012, 10:01
Oh, did you mean "competitively" or whatever? Who cares?

A lot of people evidently...

If you're investing a lot of money in an army, to have it fighting against itself just to try to scrape a win is just not gravy for some. Tyranids are far from some peripheral "back of the book" list where you can justify them having a less than stellar power level by saying "hey that's part of the fun of the list" such as with Kroot, some FW lists etc. They are one of the major players of 40k's setting and as a result many people would expect them to have a codex that is up to scratch.

Snorky_the_goblin
29-03-2012, 12:59
I do fully agree that the book feels rushed, howerver WHY Cruddace?

The Nids are very fun to play if you like thinking synergy and sneakiness, or just get to your local store and dump some 180 Gaunts and some Carnificies on the table and ask your opponent wich unit he would take out first. Trust me it is worth it for the look on his face if he did not bring 3 manticores or mobs of burnas muahaha. Also of note is the first turn burrowing Mawloc mening you now it strikes on turn two, now take three off them and bye bye Longfangs heh.

Draconis
29-03-2012, 17:07
If you really want to see the state of Nids, pick up a nid codex. Now, make a 2k point list out of it. K, next step is pick up an IG codex and make a 2k point list out of it. You'll quickly get the idea since they were done by the same author. Huge and vast difference.

Obake123
29-03-2012, 20:09
I played a game against Orks on Sunday that I think highlighted many of the best and worst things about Tyranids.

THe models are fantastic, with a real army identity to tie them together. My new Winged Tyrant looked great on the table and the Trygon I'd borrowed for the game looked ace beside him. I need to get one.

All but one unit in my army was wither dormant on the board, tunneled in, dropped out of the sky or outflanked over the sides of the board. Fun, fast and risky deployment that kept my oponant off balance and got my army right in his face.

Where many of them bogged down for half the game or died.

Half my army spent three turns trying to take out two truks and a battlewagon. One finally died under 19 hits! My monsterous creatures died easilly in CC because the lack an Invulnerable save despite their insane points cost.

I love playing 'nid, love the models, but the rules are poorly thought out, badly overpointed in some key areas and the codex is so.... dull... compared to the last one.

Souleater
30-03-2012, 20:52
The models are great. The codex is poorly written. The 5th Edition rules seem almost biased against us. As an army...my beloved Tyranids are not in a happy place. I feel guilty playing against a Nid army with my Dark Eldar because I know the person across the table is not going to have a fun time.

MCs are pretty fragile for their cost and often lacking in WS, Attacks or I. With the amount of anti-vehicle weaponry toted these days it isn't hard to kill off a TMC. I find killing a bunch of vehicles more difficult.

If our MCs had higher Toughness, an extra wound with EW but no INV saves they would be tough to kill but feel different to Chaos MCs.

Mid-sized bugs fare worse still. With their lamentable T4 they are ID'd by most AT guns. Sure, they might well be getting a 4+ Cover but when the kill takes out an expensive or useful creature it is still worth trying.

The expense of the above creatures reduces the number of gribblies available in the army. I look at my modern, balanced-horde and wonder where the hell the 'horde' element actually is. Synapse is actually a curse in CC...not only do we lose roughly the same amount of gaunts again but we get that same number of wounds repeated onto every other brood in the assault. The amount of additional units we have to back up our broods with to make them effective seems a little high.

Ventus
30-03-2012, 21:42
What gets me most is not that the dex was poorly written/playtested/edited (which is bad enough), but that a decent errata could fix many of the problems and make the dex a lot better and more of the units playable without having to wait 4+ years for a new dex (possibly with similar garbage - it is GW we are talking about after all). Alas this is not a concern for GW.

Draconis
31-03-2012, 04:08
The rules for 5th are not against us. It's all the other codexes out there are. And the faqs. SM can do many things that we cannot not for absolutely no reason.

Souleater
31-03-2012, 08:25
Let me rephrase that then...the rules are written in such a way that things that don't affect SM a great deal have a significantly stronger effect on Tyranids....

Think of the difference between a vehicle blowing up after being assaulted by power armoured troops or a brood of Genestealers. I've often been punished for that kill by losing half my brood. I know this isn't unique to 5th, but it really doesn't help. It got harder to trap models in a transport.

No Retreat! might be four or five extra saves for an SM squad. For Tyranids, trying to overwhelm the enemy and work our broods together that could be an extra eight or nine deaths on the original brood....which is generally generally double that number thanks to our poor horde troops, who have very poor armour so will die more...plus loading wounds onto any other brood in the assault.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. You state that Marines are allowed to do things that we aren't. I'm not sure quite how true that is but I do think that 5th Edition was largely tested to work with MEQ...other races could go hang.

Orks were okay because their codex was well written. As a horde army their individual units can be autonomous. The are points efficient and hit fairly hard. Synergy serves them well but it isn't mandatory...and when adding a single cheap model with a KFF is all that is required one can't help but look at the cost of our 'buffers'. Yes, I do see a KFF in many Ork lists but those mobs can still do something without it.

Yet following on from the success of Orks we have several codexes with toys designed to deal with hordes very effectively.

Our codex was hacked apart. There follows a slightly self-mocking rant...

Why turn Death Spitters into Devourers all bar one stat? Everybody else is getting different weapons but they nerfed my favourite gun in the entire game into one we already have.

Why overcost MCs?

Why limit our Toughness levels given the size of our models and their lack of INV saves?

Why put the assault Pyrovore on a fragile frame and our No-LOS shooter on our toughest non-MC platform? I'm guessing it was an aesthetic choice but it would be so simply solved.

Why turn the Broodlord into a squad leader and remove his power weapon...I mean, Marines can have squad leaders...oh...wait you already covered. that one....

What was the thinking behind Spore Pods being multi-wound models with a Toughness of 4?

Carnifexes. That doesn't even need an explanation of what is wrong with the entry.

Why not call the Tyranid Prime an Alpha Warrior? Seriously, it would indicate what the model actually was. Let's skip the 'dumb names' bit though.

How did the Lictor's rules make it through playtesting? If they didn't want the entire Nid army turning up from Reserve on turn two then why put those rules in? Put the Lictor back to being an assassin, not a glorified homing beacon.

I think that's enough semi-ranting to make my point. We had a badly written codex. If it were properly written we would be in a better place. The codex feels almost like the balance of GK and SW. Somewhere in between is the balanced codex...the point they should all be at, ideally.

I know a number of MEQ players who find Genestealers terrifying because they can kill three or four Space Marines in assault. Ignoring their inherent vulnerablity to bolters and small pieces of shrubbery. :rolleyes:

I would not dissuade anybody from picking up nids but I would point that they have one or two flaws.

Vipoid
31-03-2012, 13:51
[Long Post]



Sadly, I have to agree with everything here.

Tyranids have some really lovely models, and a plethora of conversion oppertunities. However, on the rules side, our codex is just badly-written - our expensive MCs and weak horde creatures feel completely out of place in the mech-heavy 5th edition, and several later codices seem specifically designed to slaughter us.

Souleater
31-03-2012, 14:05
But did you have to quote everything? :)

(Sorry, wall of text quotes immediately following a post are a pet peeve of mine.)

Vipoid
31-03-2012, 14:08
Sorry, is this better?

Souleater
31-03-2012, 14:36
Thank you, kindly. I don't think the world needs to see my rambling, repeatedly edited posts more than once ;)

Your point about Nids feeling out of place in 5th is bang on. I haven't played my Nids as much over the last couple of years but until the Necron hit they were still pretty popular at my FLGS. Several times I've looked at a battle between Vanilla SM and Tyranids and wondered if the Nid player isn't accidentally down a couple of hundred points.

Partly this is because of the crazy cost of our MCs. Was this high cost meant to balance out the number of such creatures we could field in order to do away with Nidzilla? I don't think it did much to stop Nidzilla - a simple FoC tweak would have done that!Yet we were given four or five new MCs. What it did do was reduce the points left for the gribblies...and they aren't terribly points efficient anyway.

Hicks
31-03-2012, 15:31
They are playable but clunky to use against old codices. Against the new stuff they get raped bad.

Draconis
01-04-2012, 03:29
Sm: Putting IC in drop pod. Tyranids: No
SM: Move and fire ordnance. Move 12" and still fire. Any other army: No
SM. Target you with Psyker powers inside a transport. Fire back at said psyker? Shadow in the Warp: No.

Etc. etc. etc. The answer to any question of "Can we do this?" is sadly almost always "No, but X Space Marine Chapter can"


As for the Lictor, one of my favorite models phsysically and fluff wise is easy. They will release Ymgarls at some time. And because they can assault after deploying, people will buy them since Lictors cannot.

suprememidgetoverlord
01-04-2012, 04:03
Sm:
SM. Target you with Psyker powers inside a transport. Fire back at said psyker? Shadow in the Warp: No.



Actually, the FAQ says yes to this, but that doesnt change how bad we are for the rest.

de Selby
01-04-2012, 04:05
For a while nids had the best model range in 40k; these days they're suffering a bit for lots of elite models in finecast but the new plastics redeem them a bit.

Rules wise, 5th edition has been dominated by imperial armies with lots of cheap tanks, and the nids suffer in that metagame. The internal balance of the dex isn't great, but the balance of the last one was off too; GW hasn't really worked out how to make synapse-based nids synergistic without being extra-ordinarily fragile, so people always end up settling on solutions like nidzilla or just loads of genestealers to stay in the game.

I was reading my niddex the other weak and a lot of it really does feel rather rushed. Redundant weapons choices and rambling fluff that just reads like somebody making it up as they go along (the legendary pyrovore exemplifies both). Since Cruddace clearly wasn't that interested in the project, I wonder if next time they'll give it back to Phil Kelly.

The 5th ed. emphasis on special characters is all wrong for nids, but in the case of necrons they solved that problem by re-writing the background for the whole army. Be ready. If everyone else is going to get de-emphasised and homogenised while the focus moves to Chaos, I can imagine that in 6th ed nids will be talking, and making alliances with the Imperium...

Freman Bloodglaive
01-04-2012, 06:31
And teaming up with Chaos in order to fight the combined forces of Dark Angels and Orks (they're both green, they must be on the same side).

lantzkev
01-04-2012, 06:52
I miss the days of Chaos being allies of orks...

Nothing like having some noise marines performing on top of a rhino to a hoard of green skins! (had a small tape player hooked up through a walkman in the doors of the rhino)

Reivax26
01-04-2012, 07:11
Nids can still be a very competitive army. Also it is worth noting that in the tournament environment they are one of the armies that people generally do not play so a good list being played by someone who knows how to use them could easily place in the top section of a tourney.

Angelwing
01-04-2012, 19:20
The 5th ed. emphasis on special characters is all wrong for nids, but in the case of necrons they solved that problem by re-writing the background for the whole army. Be ready. If everyone else is going to get de-emphasised and homogenised while the focus moves to Chaos, I can imagine that in 6th ed nids will be talking, and making alliances with the Imperium...

Zoats used to talk with the other races. Be ready for old school background coming back with a new twist.


And teaming up with Chaos in order to fight the combined forces of Dark Angels and Orks (they're both green, they must be on the same side).

Genestealer cults could ally with chaos.

Souleater
01-04-2012, 22:33
Yeah...Possessed Genestealer Patriarchs were just plain nasty :D

Eldartank
01-04-2012, 22:52
I probably said this before, but Tyranids are definitely one of my favorite armies - mainly because of the minis and the story behind them. They remain my favorite even if the current codex isn't the best. And, if you REALLY want to play Tyranids the way they are depicted in the stories/fluff, get Fantasy Flight Game's "Dark Heresy" and "Deathwatch" roleplaying games - the rules for both games are totally compatible with each other, and between both game systems, there are rules for just about every Tyranid creature in minis game, as well as rules for a couple of those from Forgeworld. You'll find the Tyranid rules in the Dark Heresy supplement "Creatures Anathema," the Deathwatch rulebook, and the Deathwatch supplements "Mark of the Xenos" and "The Jericho Reach."

I ran a Dark Heresy campaign for a little over a year, and I had a grand time in one game session where the group of Inquisitorial Acolytes were investigating a section of a planet that happened to have a small splinter group of Tyranids in the forest. I had one Lictor terrorizing the group throughout the entire game session until near the end, when they were finally able to get a lock on it with their auspex and blow it away. In the Dark Heresy/Deathwatch rules, the Lictor can go right into stealth even after it makes an attack and is fully visible (sort of like in the "Predator" movie), and my Lictor kept appearing from out of nowhere, attacking the group, and vanishing back into stealth. They were so happy when they finally detected it before it came out of stealth and fired on it and blasted it to bits.

But I digress. In the 40K minis game, the Tyranids remain one of my favorite armies (with Space Marines coming in at a close second favorite) despite any rules because the story and the models (especially the models) are so awesome. If I were to totally give up ALL gaming forever, I would probably still continue to collect and paint Tyranid and Space Marine models.

Draconis
01-04-2012, 23:08
Nids can still be a very competitive army. Also it is worth noting that in the tournament environment they are one of the armies that people generally do not play so a good list being played by someone who knows how to use them could easily place in the top section of a tourney.

Speaking from experience when it comes to Magic and type 2 standard tournies, that kind of logic does not work. We don't always get to see what decks will be played, but we still read up on them so we know how to counter them when/if we do come across them.

Gop
02-04-2012, 07:19
Model wise, they are great and offer a lot of opportunities to convert and paint up a cool themed army.

Play wise, they can be awesome, depending on the list chosen. There are so many options that it can be quite easy to make a crap list and fail and wonder what happened. If you get their synergies right they can be very hard.

Buddha777
02-04-2012, 20:55
I do great with my nids in my local gaming group. This is with the proviso, of course, that I don't play against WAAC players. However, even in that realm, I still have never beat mech guard, even when I do everything perfect. Best I can ever force is a draw.

I bring this up to illustrate that nids can be great but they are so ******* hampered by mech enemies that it just becomes an exercise in futility. Beyond the codex's many innate flaws, I am actually not sure what needs to be added/subtracted from the current nids to make them viable in the current meta (or even the next 6th edition meta).

Eldartank
04-04-2012, 00:38
I do great with my nids in my local gaming group. This is with the proviso, of course, that I don't play against WAAC players. However, even in that realm, I still have never beat mech guard, even when I do everything perfect. Best I can ever force is a draw.

I bring this up to illustrate that nids can be great but they are so ******* hampered by mech enemies that it just becomes an exercise in futility. Beyond the codex's many innate flaws, I am actually not sure what needs to be added/subtracted from the current nids to make them viable in the current meta (or even the next 6th edition meta).

Try playing your Tyranids against an Imperial Guard Armored Company (the all-tank armored company rules they had in a White Dwarf a few years ago). I did that last year at my gaming table at home. My friend played the armored company with my vast collection of tanks, and I played my Tyranids. It was around 2000 points. It really was quite a riot - One Carnifex managed to survive getting across the board to destroy one tank. Other than that, he didn't get even so much as a scratch on any of his other tanks, and every single one of my Tyranids was obliterated.

Sophet Drahas
04-04-2012, 01:05
It's been my experience that Nids vs mechanized armies have some issues too. I've never won a game against very heavy tank armies unless I somehow manage to get to an objective that has good cover and hunker down and get lucky enough to survive the rounds. Now that we've got the new Nid models this might help since I'd be more apt to take them, but with few AP weapons (and poor ones for what we have) it's tough. I've relied on rending with genestealers to crack a few tanks but most opponents know this is my only real way to get at the juicy bits in their tanks so they're a high priority target.

Notanoob
04-04-2012, 05:37
I am actually not sure what needs to be added/subtracted from the current nids to make them viable in the current meta (or even the next 6th edition meta).For this edition it's actually pretty easy. Make Venom Cannons and Heavy Venom Cannons Assault 3 instead of blasts. Make Carnifexes 20 points cheaper, and make Warriors T5 W2. Now you've got decent tank stunners and even possibly killers in every slot, not just Hive Guard and a bunch of decent to awful choices.

Vipoid
04-04-2012, 11:42
For this edition it's actually pretty easy. Make Venom Cannons and Heavy Venom Cannons Assault 3 instead of blasts. Make Carnifexes 20 points cheaper, and make Warriors T5 W2. Now you've got decent tank stunners and even possibly killers in every slot, not just Hive Guard and a bunch of decent to awful choices.

Agreed with the warriors and venom cannons, although I'd also suggest that warriors start at 25pts with 2 sets of scything talons, and all their secondary weapons, bar spinefists, cost 5pts more.

However, I think most (if not all) of our MCs need either a reduction in points or some sort of invulnerable save/EW to keep us competative.

Ventus
04-04-2012, 14:26
Agree with you both. But even a few other changes using the errata can fix many problems. There have been a number of threads before where people have discussed many ways to deal with the codex and 5th edition problems. The T5 W2 for warriors idea should be extended to raveners as well as many of the mid-sized bugs such as lictors and biovovres. The lictor/deathleaper pheromone trail should work immediately as the creature is supposed to already be in the area or the lictor/deathleaper should be able to deploy with the army at the start of the game if desired. You should be able to select units to come out of the trygon tunnel (and raveners should be allowed in the tunnel as an exception to the beasts rule). If you still would have to wait for the turn following the arrival of the trygon before a unit can use the tunnel than they should be able to assault the turn of arrival. Nid pure assault units should have access to grenades or have an equivalent automatically included in the cost (stealers, hormaguants, raveners, etc). The list goes on...

However, with 6th edition soon to arrive that may fix and/or cause new problems with the dex, at this point I would rather see GW spend the effort making a good errata for nids (and the other armies) to adjust the dex for 6th and then also fix up issues that still don't work properly (and not 6th months after the rules drop). Without a large, properly done errata that honestly tries to address a lot of the poor/unworkable rules/stats than I would rather see a new dex soon after 6th (but I doubt this).

itcamefromthedeep
04-04-2012, 14:47
Making venom cannons function tank-killer (rather than tank stun/shaker) weapons would make the codex functional.

Any more than that and you slip into the huge, extensive project of messing with the codex unit by unit.

People have an idea of Tyranids as a mobile horde close-combat army, a setup which has never really been a good idea for as long as Tyranids have been played. There are a number of ways of making that kind of army, but that would take a tectonic shift in Tyranid design I think.

wyvirn
04-04-2012, 14:58
I think if they made the venom cannon more able to immobilize it would help without changing the VC to a tank buster. The vehicles that really give tyranids a problem are transports, so if you make them immobile they loose the advantage of speed and you can hit them in CC.

Ventus
04-04-2012, 23:48
The venom cannon as a weapon that temporarily immobilzes/prevents shooting rather than destroying vehicles/weapons would be an interesting idea but done differently than it currently functions. Get rid of the blast, make it assault 2, no pen roll and have its own 'damage' table if it hits so there are no options for destroying a vehicle or even weapon destroyed, but give it a good chance of stopping/slowing movement and/or shooting of one or more weapons. The heavy venom cannon would have a modifier on the table to more likely cause greater problems.

The table could something like a '1' is no effect, '2' prevents shooting from one weapon, '3' vehicle can only move 6", '4' no weapons can shoot and vehicle can only move 6", '5' and vehicle cannot move this turn and '6' vehicle cannot move and cannot fire weapons. Or something along those lines.

Vipoid
05-04-2012, 10:25
The table could something like a '1' is no effect, '2' prevents shooting from one weapon, '3' vehicle can only move 6", '4' no weapons can shoot and vehicle can only move 6", '5' and vehicle cannot move this turn and '6' vehicle cannot move and cannot fire weapons. Or something along those lines.

I've never seen a more useless damage table.

Basically, we have to roll a 6 just to get 'Crew Stunned'. :wtf:

Ventus
05-04-2012, 14:54
Well Vipoid it may be useless I typed it out quickly. Amend the table. The idea was that the weapon did not need to pen. If it hit there was a good chance that the vehicle was temporarily immobilzed or prevented from firing. If venom cannons or heavy venom cannons had 2 or 3 shots than each weapon might get a few hits and a few rolls on the table. It might be overboard but again the idea was a weapon that glooped the outside of the vehicle with a glue-like substance to give the CC units time to get to it. I'm not saying it is the greatest idea or that it might need to be reworked. I just want the venom cannon to be able to be somewhat useful.

Either something like the above or return the venom cannons to what they were and eliminate the penalty on the damage table giving us more standard anti-tank weapons (which we need).

Draconis
05-04-2012, 17:21
Or if GW really wanted it to be where the venom cannons aren't supposed to kill tanks, they could make them ignore the tables completely and just make them shake the tank on a 1-3, or stun the tank on a 4-6. Of course, many of the heavy tanks out there have ways of ignoring stunned altogether.

Vipoid
05-04-2012, 17:31
Or if GW really wanted it to be where the venom cannons aren't supposed to kill tanks, they could make them ignore the tables completely and just make them shake the tank on a 1-3, or stun the tank on a 4-6. Of course, many of the heavy tanks out there have ways of ignoring stunned altogether.

Indeed.

There's also the argument that a 25pt gun, mounted on a 160+pt platform should really be capable of more than just stunning a vehicle.

I doubt SMs would be happy if you changed the melta rules so that meltaguns and multimeltas could only stun a vehicle.

Ventus
05-04-2012, 18:21
Agreed. The idea I mentioned would include adjusting the cost of the gun. Of course all factors would have to be adjusted appropriately. I also agree that the platform, such as carnifex, tyrant or warrior are all overcosted IMO and this should also be fixed.

At the end of the day, I just want some shooting anti-tank options in other areas than the elite slots (mostly). I would also like to see the pyrovore fixed up with a heavy flamer like the hellhound or melta-stream (maybe assault 18-24"), moved to fast attack and maybe with a 12" move (also made a T5 model). Again some quick ideas that would have to be adjusted so its not overboard and/or useless but would allow anti-tank in the fast attack slot for a walking army. I just think the pyrovore had a lot of potential but was poorly done and shoved in a slot with much better/needed choices.

Thrax
05-04-2012, 18:25
As an aside, shouldn't the venom cannon have some poisonous effect, even if secondary? It doesn't even do that, much less threaten battle tanks.

Vipoid
05-04-2012, 19:03
As an aside, shouldn't the venom cannon have some poisonous effect, even if secondary? It doesn't even do that, much less threaten battle tanks.

lol, that's actually a very good point.

It would be nice if it could reroll 'to wound' rolls vs non-vehicles models. Not especially useful given S9, but would at least indicate some attempt at a flavourful weapon.

wyvirn
05-04-2012, 19:15
The venom cannon has had a problem with armored units since at least 3rd edition. The only advantage it has is it's strength and it's range, and that is offset by the negative modifier on the damage chart (currently). It's clearly an anti-infantry/anti-commander gun.

Vipoid
05-04-2012, 20:06
The venom cannon has had a problem with armored units since at least 3rd edition. The only advantage it has is it's strength and it's range, and that is offset by the negative modifier on the damage chart (currently). It's clearly an anti-infantry/anti-commander gun.

Consider this though:

4th edition codex:

Venom cannon (on carnifex) - S10, Assault 2
Cost of BS3 carnifex with venom cannon - 128pts

Venom cannon (on Hive Tyrant with TS) - S8, Assault 3
Cost of BS4 Hive Tyrant with Toxin Sacs and Venom Cannon - 137pts

Venom Cannon (on warrior with TS) - S7, Assault 2
Cost of BS3 Warrior with Toxin Sacs and Venom Cannon (and scything talons) - 43pts

5th Edition Codex:

Heavy Venom Cannon - S9, Assault 1 Blast
Carnifex with Heavy Venom Cannon - 185pts
Hive Tyrant (BS3) with Heavy Venom Cannon - 195pts

Venom Cannon - S6, Assault 1 Blast
Warrior with Venom Cannon - 45pts

Whilst it was never an amazing weapon, it's worth considering that 4th edition didn't have the huge number of vehicles we see in 5th, and so didn't need a huge number of anti-vehicle weapons.

Anyway, the point is that, not only has the venom cannon got worse, but the cost of the creatures that carry it has increased considerably. The venom cannon-carnifex now costs almost 50% more, but is armed with a weapon that's considerably worse. The new Hive has one point of strength advantage, but the old one had 3 BS4 shots (still S8), and cost 58pts less than the new one. Finally, the warrior bearer just seems worse in every conceivable way - it costs 2pts more, but lacks both the extra shot and a point of strength.


With regard to it being an anti-infantry/anti-commander gun... I just don't see it. Being a small blast, it just won't hit enough models to be considered anti-infantry. If you want anti-infantry, take the barbed strangler - which at least has a large blast template. As for anti-commander, all I can say is good luck with that. I can't think of many commanders who are scared of AP4 - generally you're going to be looking at a 2+/3+ armour save. Furthermore, on the rare occasions where it might be scary to a commander... why would your opponent take the hit on his commander? You could line the blast squarely on top of said commander, and he'll just allocate the wounds elsewhere in the commander's squad.

Still, if you want to take a 25pt weapon, on a 160/170pt MC, in the hope that you'll find a lone commander (with no armour) wandering nonchalantly around the battlefield, then go nuts I guess. Personally I'd rather skip the gun alltogether and just murder the commander with my 160+pt Monstrous Creature...

Chapters Unwritten
06-04-2012, 00:40
Agreed. The idea I mentioned would include adjusting the cost of the gun. Of course all factors would have to be adjusted appropriately. I also agree that the platform, such as carnifex, tyrant or warrior are all overcosted IMO and this should also be fixed.

At the end of the day, I just want some shooting anti-tank options in other areas than the elite slots (mostly). I would also like to see the pyrovore fixed up with a heavy flamer like the hellhound or melta-stream (maybe assault 18-24"), moved to fast attack and maybe with a 12" move (also made a T5 model). Again some quick ideas that would have to be adjusted so its not overboard and/or useless but would allow anti-tank in the fast attack slot for a walking army. I just think the pyrovore had a lot of potential but was poorly done and shoved in a slot with much better/needed choices.I've always thought it would have made a huge different for this book if there were two things changed:

1.) Making the pyrovore melta
2.) In the playtest leak there was an option for the Carnifex to have some kind of armor that, whenever if got hit by AP3 or better, it didn't lose it's save, just reduced it by 2.

Souleater
06-04-2012, 01:30
People have an idea of Tyranids as a mobile horde close-combat army, a setup which has never really been a good idea for as long as Tyranids have been played.

Tyranids could run as a mobile CC horde army back in 2nd Edition. Third edition giving everybody M6 but a big dent in that, though.

althathir
06-04-2012, 02:33
Speaking from experience when it comes to Magic and type 2 standard tournies, that kind of logic does not work. We don't always get to see what decks will be played, but we still read up on them so we know how to counter them when/if we do come across them.

I think having a list that isn't the norm is more effective in 40k than in magic. 40k is more complex, and there isn't a sideboard option when you factor in magics recent trend of smaller sets, and chase mythics, you end up with a much more predictable system. Its also a lot easier to find information on decks because of a much larger playerbase, and to do the playing testing to really know the ins and outs of the matchup because of how much less time magic takes to play.

As far as Nids go I like them, and almost started them last year, I would have if they would have had models for tyrannofexes (granted that based more on the current model than the rules) and tervigons. The main reasons besides the lack of models were that all my lists felt same, the amount of t4 multiwound models (they need either t5 and w2, or EW) and it bothered me that warriors didn't have a halfway decent anti-vehicle gun available to them.

I'm still considering starting them to be honest because I like the models, and their playstyle is really different.

itcamefromthedeep
06-04-2012, 05:24
Tyranids could run as a mobile CC horde army back in 2nd Edition. Third edition giving everybody M6 but a big dent in that, though.
They can run as a mobile CC horde army today. In relative terms it just wasn't/isn't good at winning. It's worse now, but not by that much.

Even today there are plenty of places you can go and win regularly with a horde of CC Tyranids but it has always been markedly worse than Tyranids with guns.

Draconis
06-04-2012, 05:54
I think having a list that isn't the norm is more effective in 40k than in magic. 40k is more complex, and there isn't a sideboard option when you factor in magics recent trend of smaller sets, and chase mythics, you end up with a much more predictable system. Its also a lot easier to find information on decks because of a much larger playerbase, and to do the playing testing to really know the ins and outs of the matchup because of how much less time magic takes to play.

As far as Nids go I like them, and almost started them last year, I would have if they would have had models for tyrannofexes (granted that based more on the current model than the rules) and tervigons. The main reasons besides the lack of models were that all my lists felt same, the amount of t4 multiwound models (they need either t5 and w2, or EW) and it bothered me that warriors didn't have a halfway decent anti-vehicle gun available to them.

I'm still considering starting them to be honest because I like the models, and their playstyle is really different.


40k is more complex? o.O? Say what? ITs much easier to learn a ruleset and memorize a handful of codexes than to memorize how 7 thousand cards play, how they interact with each other, and what kind of game you think they'll play when you sit down at the table.

Im not sure how Nids with guns are better.... most of them have bs3 and only a couple shots.... no meltas. no real flamers. No ordnance. weak large blast. No real tank killers beyond the rupture cannons. (psyker doesnt count, its a joke in this meta)

itcamefromthedeep
06-04-2012, 07:26
40k is more complex? o.O? Say what?You don't need to know how 7000 cards play. In a given block you only need to know about 300 and most of those can be safely forgotten once the block rolls over. Most cards will build easily off of what you already know from previous sets.

Neither game's complexity comes from the number of units or special rules. It's in the permutations & combinations, risk analysis, budgeting and reading the environment you're working in.


Im not sure how Nids with guns are better.... most of them have bs3 and only a couple shots.... no meltas. no real flamers. No ordnance. weak large blast. No real tank killers beyond the rupture cannons. (psyker doesnt count, its a joke in this meta)On the contrary, Gaunts and monstrous creatures with Devourers get a ton of shots and even Warriors get an impressive amount of gun for their price. You don't need meltas or flamers (Grey Knights seem to get by without a lot of those). You also don't need ordnance or high Strength large blasts (again, remember that Grey Knights manage). Hive Guard are among the most efficient tank killers in 40k (they are most certainly "real tank killers"). I can report that Zoanthropes are not bad at killing tanks even when there's a hood on the table (I win a lot of games, and the majority of those include 6 Zoanthropes).

Note that I'm not making they case that Tyranid shooting is the best shooting in the game or any such sillyness, but it's better than Tyranid close combat (and head and shoulders above a horde close combat army). Whatever shortcomings you may see with Tyranid shooting, if you don't lean on any Monstrous Creatures or Hive Guard or Zoanthropes then you are seriously, badly hurting your chances. Gaunts and Genestealers just aren't enough, and Warriors aren't exactly the picture of a horde unit when their cheapest version will match the price of Chaos Terminators.

Tyranid close combat troops suffer from a shortage of armor, Attacks, and power weapons relative to dedicated close combat units.

nedius
06-04-2012, 11:09
Tyranid close combat troops suffer from a shortage of armor, Attacks, and power weapons relative to dedicated close combat units.

Which is a crying shame about this army. It was once billed as THE close assult army. Hordes of disposable little critters to tar pit whilst the seriously nasty stuff closed in.

Now, even the poster boys of 'nid CC would think twice about charging anything in cover, or any other unit that was supposed to be 'cc'.

Comrade Penguin
06-04-2012, 15:41
Which is a crying shame about this army. It was once billed as THE close assult army. Hordes of disposable little critters to tar pit whilst the seriously nasty stuff closed in.

Now, even the poster boys of 'nid CC would think twice about charging anything in cover, or any other unit that was supposed to be 'cc'.

^this

Tyranids have long existed in the fluff as a horde of small nids that hit your lines and wear you down, while the larger ones tear you apart in CC. Most of the novel/short stories focused on this aspect of the tyranids. The current codex does not reflect this at all unfortunately. Now it seems like you have to pray that you can open up enemy transports and make sure none of your units move through difficult terrain. And even when you do everything right, it still seems that other armies are better equipped to counter our "dedicated CC" units in close combat.

The problem is we have no niche, we are mediocre at shooting and CC. Our elite units can't keep up with most other armies' elite units. Our swarm elements are outclassed by orks and IG. Nothing is more depressing than having a stubborn counter-attack IG blob squad slaughter your pricier guants AND having your hive tyrant suffer a heart attack and dying from no retreat wounds.

Vipoid
06-04-2012, 16:47
The problem is we have no niche, we are mediocre at shooting and CC. Our elite units can't keep up with most other armies' elite units. Our swarm elements are outclassed by orks and IG. Nothing is more depressing than having a stubborn counter-attack IG blob squad slaughter your pricier guants AND having your hive tyrant suffer a heart attack and dying from no retreat wounds.

This actually exemplifies one of the biggest problems with Tyranids at the moment. They have no niche, and Cruddace obviously didn't care enough about the project to try and create one for them.

Many races have units that do assaults better, with GK having units that can both out-shoot us and still beat us in CC.
Even disregarding transports, DE make us look sluggish (they get fleet on virtually every model, whilst we're only allowed it on a handful).
We could have been an 'aura' race (different synapse creatures give different benefits to units within their synapse range), but synapse doesn't really give benefits any more - it just removes penalties.
We're not even the most 'customisable' race, because most of the biomorphs have been stripped from the codex.

itcamefromthedeep
06-04-2012, 16:48
Tyranids have long existed in the fluff as a horde of small nids that hit your lines and wear you down, while the larger ones tear you apart in CC. Most of the novel/short stories focused on this aspect of the tyranids.Are there any novels you'd like to recommend?


Our elite units can't keep up with most other armies' elite units. Our swarm elements are outclassed by orks and IG. Nothing is more depressing than having a stubborn counter-attack IG blob squad slaughter your pricier guants AND having your hive tyrant suffer a heart attack and dying from no retreat wounds.
It's not that bad. The disparity doesn't really show up until the real upper tiers of play.

Tyranids aren't great, but most players won't be in a position to notice and it certainly hasn't stopped me from winning a whole lot of games (and having great fun doing it).

Comrade Penguin
06-04-2012, 17:14
Are there any novels you'd like to recommend?


It's not that bad. The disparity doesn't really show up until the real upper tiers of play.

Tyranids aren't great, but most players won't be in a position to notice and it certainly hasn't stopped me from winning a whole lot of games (and having great fun doing it).

Many of the Ciaphus Cain books have pretty cool depictions of Tyranid units, and I never read it but I believe there is a book about called Desert Guard (or something along those lines) that deals with the nids. When I was younger (about 7-8 years ago) there were a few short story compilations that had great tyranid stories in them. One had the story of planet under assault by nids. The narrator is part of convoy that gets attacked by nid gargoyles and then ground units, and they try to keep back waves of guants. He thinks he is saved when space marine drop pods land amidst the nids, but the SMs are quickly overwhelmed by the larger tyranid constructs. Man I wish I could remember which compilation had this, because its one of all time favorite 40k stories.

Also if you go back through the older codices you will see a bunch of the one page stories where nids are overwhelming their enemies with small bugs and finishing them off with their carnifexs and tyrants. Remember when carnifexs were the biggest baddest thing the nids would throw out you :cries:

But I agree that you can win and have fun with the current nid book, you just will face a frustrating uphill battle against any opponent who takes lots of tanks. I am hoping that GW makes transports more dangerous in 6th. I am sick of blowing up rhinos with genestealers or MCs and then being shot and charged by its occupants in the next turn.

Vipoid
06-04-2012, 17:20
I am hoping that GW makes transports more dangerous in 6th. I am sick of blowing up rhinos with genestealers or MCs and then being shot and charged by its occupants in the next turn.

Agreed.

At the very least, I feel that if one of my units destroys an occupied transport in close combat, I should be able to immedialty engage the ocupants in CC when they flood out - rather than being a sitting-duck in my opponent's turn, and possibly even dying to the unit whoose transport I destroyed..

Souleater
06-04-2012, 18:09
Even today there are plenty of places you can go and win regularly with a horde of CC Tyranids but it has always been markedly worse than Tyranids with guns.

I never stated I wasn't taking any guns, old boy.

Obake123
06-04-2012, 19:30
The short story you're after is in the collected volume "Let the Galaxy Burn", along with some other great stories.

More and more the Tyranid Codex is infuriating me. So many of the problems are obvious even on a quick run through that I can't understand how they made it out of the playtesting.

Lictos... worthless since they'll usually fail to provide the serive that I'm paying for (Wow! A scouting / advance unit that turns up after the rest of my army? At what point did that seem like a good idea?)

Primes... unable to arrive in a spore, despite EVERY other army that has a drop pod or equivalent being allowed to do exactly that.

Raveners... lovely models. Too bad they fail on every level compared to Shrikes. THough since we still don't have models for them either....

Harpy... A flying monsterous creature with zero invulnerable save and zero chance of a cover save, armed with an anti tank weapon that can't do much against tanks... too bad there isn't a model because the rules make me want to rush out and get one.

Still, the title of the thread is "What is the general opinion of Tyranids right now?" In my opinion, they can be awsome fun to play, offerinh a wonderful array of choices when deploying (Deep strike by tunneling, deep strike by flying in, come in by outflanking, lie dormant on the tabletop, come in via Trygon tunnels) and can hold their own in most CC.

BUT

Transports are a nighmare and the above points that I've highlighted (and which every Tyranid player is very much aware of) stop the army from feeling as smooth on the table as it should.

On balance, i'm glad I got my 'nid army and i'm going to add more units to it soon. That way I'll be ready when a new, better Codex comes along.

Ventus
06-04-2012, 19:32
Agreed.

At the very least, I feel that if one of my units destroys an occupied transport in close combat, I should be able to immedialty engage the ocupants in CC when they flood out - rather than being a sitting-duck in my opponent's turn, and possibly even dying to the unit whoose transport I destroyed..

^This. I really hope 6th edition makes CC units that destroy a vehicle to automatically be engaged in CC with the passengers. I have found this to be exceedingly frustrating.

Vipoid
06-04-2012, 20:44
The short story you're after is in the collected volume "Let the Galaxy Burn", along with some other great stories.

More and more the Tyranid Codex is infuriating me. So many of the problems are obvious even on a quick run through that I can't understand how they made it out of the playtesting.

Lictos... worthless since they'll usually fail to provide the serive that I'm paying for (Wow! A scouting / advance unit that turns up after the rest of my army? At what point did that seem like a good idea?)

I feel Lictors should have a rule similar to the SM 'Drop Pod Assault' rule, which always lets them deploy on the first or second turn. Also, they should deploy like ymgarl genestealers - not like Marbo, unless Cruddace intends to give them Demo Charges (in which case, I'd definatly consider using them).



Primes... unable to arrive in a spore, despite EVERY other army that has a drop pod or equivalent being allowed to do exactly that.


Agreed.

I like the Prime, and I've used one in virtually every Tyranid army I've made. However, using it a lot has also made me appreciate its flaws:

1) Alpha Warrior is virtually pointless. Warriors are already WS5, and 1 extra point has never once helped them. The BS might have helped... if they had any good guns. However, deathspitters are pathetic for the points you pay, and devilgants are far better with devourers. If I attach a Prime to a warrior squad, it's so he can soak up wounds. Know what would have been useful though - WS7 on the Prime (even without Alpha Warrior). He's basically a melee creature (he can't even take an upgraded gun to make use of BS4), and WS7 would be immensely helpful against a lot of other commander units.

2) I5 isn't fast. Maybe it's just the armies I play against, but there just seem to be so many units that strike at I6 these days. T5 is quite nice, but with no invulnerable save it only goes so far. Even Lash Whip is no help when you're being stabbed by GK halberds from the back row.

3) No fleet or wings is a massive pain. I've said this before, but I fweel units like the Prime should be forcing units forward - not holding them back. Lacking both of these (and no option to buy either) is extremely limiting in terms of which units the Prime can join, and basically stops him from joining most nid combat units.

4) Why is the broodlord so much better...?




Harpy... A flying monsterous creature with zero invulnerable save and zero chance of a cover save, armed with an anti tank weapon that can't do much against tanks... too bad there isn't a model because the rules make me want to rush out and get one.


I love the fact that it's one of the few creatures to have grenades, *and* it halves your opponent's initiative on the turn it charges. And it has all of 2 attacks at WS3... :wtf:

Souleater
06-04-2012, 21:10
Well, we need to give the poor shooting armies a chance to beat us in CC, Vipoid. Balance things out, what.

The bit that gets me with the Primes not being allowed to ride with the creatures they are meant to be leading is that it was added several months after the codex had been out.

Drop a brood of 'Fexes next to something. No problem. Flyrant DSing in? Perfectly balanced.

Tyranid Prime? AAAAAAAGHHHHHH! We're Doomed! More than if actual DoM was dropping in...I give up. I will continue to play and love my Nids but the current codex is one of GW's worst products.

Balerion
06-04-2012, 21:19
I think if they made the venom cannon more able to immobilize it would help without changing the VC to a tank buster. The vehicles that really give tyranids a problem are transports, so if you make them immobile they loose the advantage of speed and you can hit them in CC.


The venom cannon as a weapon that temporarily immobilzes/prevents shooting rather than destroying vehicles/weapons would be an interesting idea but done differently than it currently functions. Get rid of the blast, make it assault 2, no pen roll and have its own 'damage' table if it hits so there are no options for destroying a vehicle or even weapon destroyed, but give it a good chance of stopping/slowing movement and/or shooting of one or more weapons. The heavy venom cannon would have a modifier on the table to more likely cause greater problems.

I like this idea.

I'm perfectly fine with the VC being an anti-armour weapon with a fluff-oriented drawback of not being able to actually kill vehicles, but it should still be effective overall.

Another fix would be to give it some sort of persistent effect. After a vehicle gets hit by a VC it's covered with a glaze of harmful goop that should keep working on it. For example, a vehicle that is hit by a VC could have to pass a difficult terrain test every turn that ignores vehicle upgrades. Alternatively, it could be a system where you place a marker next to a vehicle every time it is hit by a VC, and as certain amounts of markers accumulate different harmful effects build up.

itcamefromthedeep
07-04-2012, 17:20
I never stated I wasn't taking any guns, old boy.That's true, and I never said that the horde of CC Tyranids is the only thing in your army. The parts with guns were probably the better parts, though.


The short story you're after is in the collected volume "Let the Galaxy Burn", along with some other great stories.

More and more the Tyranid Codex is infuriating me. So many of the problems are obvious even on a quick run through that I can't understand how they made it out of the playtesting.Thanks for the reference.

Also, don't forget twin-linked Deathspitters. That one really cemented the lack of internal balance in the codex for me. Here's a rough idea of a conversation I've had with a number of players at my local store on the matter:

Me: "Okay, so imagine you have two guns. All other things equal, same range, same platform, same BS, same price, all of that. One of this guns is S6 AP- and the other is S5 AP5. Which would you choose?
Player: "The S6 AP- one I guess. It's a little better at killing Marines."
Me: "Okay, okay. Now imagine that the S6 AP- gun has a rule where enemy units that take casualties from it suffer -1 on their Morale test. Would that change your mind?"
Player: "No, that just makes the S6 AP- gun even better. I'd definitely take that one."
Me: "Alright, alright. Now imagine that the S6 AP- gun gets twice as many shots. Which would you pick now?
Player: :wtf:
Me: "Yeah that's the kind of choice in upgrades Tyranids get."

Black_Cat
07-04-2012, 18:52
I love the new models coming out and I have a few painted up somewhere here in my apartment. But I keep reading that they are trash, is that true or just overreaction? What is your opinion?

At the last tournament I went to a Tyranid army came top. It was a Terivagon/ Hive guard heavy list with a LOT of guants (with the gaunt units positioned to give pretty much everything (including each other) cover saves throughout the games). There was ~30 40k players and as I remember he won all his games. I think Horde armies are generally underrated when the current meta is so anti-vehicle/MEQ.

Draconis
07-04-2012, 23:48
However, the Tfex probably didnt see play. So to answer Antin3's question, half of the models are good. And they happen to be the new models taht were released with the new codex. Yep, its a $$ grab for GW.

Souleater
08-04-2012, 09:43
That's true, and I never said that the horde of CC Tyranids is the only thing in your army. The parts with guns were probably the better parts, though.


Up until the current codex the shooty bits were amongst my favourites I grant you - HS Gun Fexes, Termagaunts with Fleshborers, DeathSpitter Warriors. Sadly those all got nerfed. Genestealers are still there as they have and still are my favourite Tyranid thing.

The only shooting option I'm keen on at the moment is the Biovore brood. DakkaFexes and Flyrants are okay. With their effectiveness held against the rest of the Codex they are by default 'not bad'. As a Tyranid player I want to rip things to bits in CC with shooting only for support and/or vehicle lockdown. A bit more like Orks and a lot less like the IG.

I accept that the mobile CC horde is less than ideal now but in 2nd Edition very little of my actual killing power game from mid or big bugs. It was the lightning fast Hormies, the flamer toting Gargoyles and the deadly Genestealers that did the heavy lifting. Shooting just took out skimmers and/or tied up vehicles. You asserted that such an army has never been good, when in fact, it has been in the past.

itcamefromthedeep
09-04-2012, 03:40
The only shooting option I'm keen on at the moment is the Biovore brood.Really? Hive Guard don't do well for you?

Perhaps we're missing a prescriptive/descriptive distinction here. I like playing with Hormagaunts these days even though I know they're not good models (like Tactical Marines they're okay, but not good).


I accept that the mobile CC horde is less than ideal now but in 2nd Edition very little of my actual killing power game from mid or big bugs. It was the lightning fast Hormies, the flamer toting Gargoyles and the deadly Genestealers that did the heavy lifting. Shooting just took out skimmers and/or tied up vehicles. You asserted that such an army has never been good, when in fact, it has been in the past.I'll note that Gargoyles were excellent... because of their gun.

You hint at the problems that hordes of CC Tyranids have had to deal with: skimmers and vehicles. Hormagaunts and Genestealers were/are bad at handling vehicles, particularly fast-moving ones. Tyranids have answers to these problems, but they're not among the cheap or close combat models. You can put a horde of close combat Tyranids on the table, but it won't be enough. You need the enablers in the form of Tyranids with guns. You can do Tyranids without the close combat focus, but you can't do them without the guns (or rather, they'll suck without the guns).

I'd really like to do an army with nothing but small bases and maybe a few medium ones that fights things in close combat... but that's not an effective army. Stealer Shock was about as close at it got, but even that wasn't exactly a tide of models or even all that impressive.

Souleater
09-04-2012, 08:17
Really? Hive Guard don't do well for you?

I did state that I used to love so many of the shooty bits from the previous dex and you pick up on this? HG are okay. Certainly handy if you end up facing SW or Eldar. However, as I also play Dark Eldar I see the S8 Shooting as 'okay' but with shorter range and slower speed. And I know how I'll handle them when I face them as DE. Hive Guard are not, if you will excuse the pun, a magic bullet.



Perhaps we're missing a prescriptive/descriptive distinction here. I like playing with Hormagaunts these days even though I know they're not good models (like Tactical Marines they're okay, but not good).

I use HG certainly. I prefer Zoeys as they are more flexible. Unfortunately, in certain situations - playing against Librarians or Eldar - HG are pretty much mandatory.



I'll note that Gargoyles were excellent... because of their gun.


*sucks air in through teeth* Yeah, I don't want to bad mouth the old fellas. I mean not only are they ugly as sin but they're made of lead but they came stone cold last out of the three. In second edition I spent a good couple of years trying to get Flesh Borer or Spike Rifle Termagants to work. Eventually I replaced them with more Hormagaunts because the threat range wasn't much less but the killing power was far higher.

Gargoyles were good because they could fly high and then drop down to kill off one or two members of a supporting unit. It wasn't really their guns that were useful but their extraordinary mobility and presence.

I would also remind you that vehicles were far less common back then.



You can put a horde of close combat Tyranids on the table, but it won't be enough.


In Second edition, it was. As I've said I had a smattering of guns but Stealers were fast enough and powerful enough to get to enemy tanks and pull them apart while the enemy tried to deal with the Hormies or in a Cult army by simply overwhelming them with Genestealers. Of course, we're going back to the days when 40K vs Nids was a lot like Space Hulk. Shoot them and pray they don't make it to CC, because at that point it is almost certainly game over.

Since then, no. But I never said otherwise.

PostinDirty
09-04-2012, 10:10
to back up your points about CC army 'nids, i'm going to be a broken record and yet again say; all-reserve list works pretty darned well. without any real shooting in it.

shooting is essential when you're on the board and there's that pressing need to deal to transports and the like on the way to making it to your opponent's side. take away the equation of how to get to enemy units, happily mitigates any lack of shooting you may have.

...with the exception of venom spam DE armies. :( but i don't think a footslogging list with maxed out HG would fair a whole lot better either

Obake123
09-04-2012, 12:43
I have to agree with PostinDirty's comment above.

All reserve Tyranids works well for me. I have no trouble getting into my opponant's gunline with most of my army intact. There, however, I get bogged down if he's got transports.

I recently fought against Orks, 2 Truks and a Battle wagon. I had three broods of Stealers with Broodlords and Two broods of Ymgarl strealers take three turns to finally break them open and spill the contents out. All the while I'm getting shot at my his uninvolved units. If ork shooting was better the game woulf have been a rout.

Big 'nids need Invulnerable saves.

Small ones need something like the Necron's Entropic strike rule to whittle away vehicle armour.

Better yet, introduce that as part of the damage table "Any Vehicle or walker that suffers a hit when assaulted must reduce the armour value of the Vehicle by 1 on the affected facing. If any facing is reduced to 0, the Vehicle is destroyed."

This would reflect the protection of the vehicle's armour being erroded by countless impacts. Not perfect perhaps, because it would be a nightmare to keep track of, but still...

Comrade Penguin
10-04-2012, 17:18
I have to agree with PostinDirty's comment above.

All reserve Tyranids works well for me. I have no trouble getting into my opponant's gunline with most of my army intact. There, however, I get bogged down if he's got transports.

I recently fought against Orks, 2 Truks and a Battle wagon. I had three broods of Stealers with Broodlords and Two broods of Ymgarl strealers take three turns to finally break them open and spill the contents out. All the while I'm getting shot at my his uninvolved units. If ork shooting was better the game woulf have been a rout.

Big 'nids need Invulnerable saves.

Small ones need something like the Necron's Entropic strike rule to whittle away vehicle armour.

Better yet, introduce that as part of the damage table "Any Vehicle or walker that suffers a hit when assaulted must reduce the armour value of the Vehicle by 1 on the affected facing. If any facing is reduced to 0, the Vehicle is destroyed."

This would reflect the protection of the vehicle's armour being erroded by countless impacts. Not perfect perhaps, because it would be a nightmare to keep track of, but still...

I started using all reserves lists as well, and they are mighty fun to play. But I can't touch transports, and if an opponent is heavily meched then its gg. Just yesterday I had a poded dakkafex and twin brainleech worm tyrant light up the rear armor of a a SM rhino. The rhino was smoked, so he made a few cover saves and -1 on the damage chart hurt a lot too. The best I could do was shake it. Almost 500 points couldn't take out a rhino! Guess what happened to that carnifex and tyrant on his turn...

Vipoid
10-04-2012, 17:37
I started using all reserves lists as well, and they are mighty fun to play. But I can't touch transports, and if an opponent is heavily meched then its gg. Just yesterday I had a poded dakkafex and twin brainleech worm tyrant light up the rear armor of a a SM rhino. The rhino was smoked, so he made a few cover saves and -1 on the damage chart hurt a lot too. The best I could do was shake it. Almost 500 points couldn't take out a rhino! Guess what happened to that carnifex and tyrant on his turn...

For a laugh, I once tried an all-reserve list. I can't remember exactly what I had, but I know that it was based around podding in 3 dakka-fexes, along with a winged dakka-tyrant (with HC, obviously). So, my tyrant/fexes would bravely pod in, kill a 35pt transport... and then die in the enemy turn. It was a fun list, but just couldn't do anything meaningful against mech.

Souleater
10-04-2012, 17:41
....and I've lost count of just how many 'stealers I've lost to exploding vehicles.

Buddha777
10-04-2012, 18:54
Big 'nids need Invulnerable saves.

Small ones need something like the Necron's Entropic strike rule to whittle away vehicle armour.

Better yet, introduce that as part of the damage table "Any Vehicle or walker that suffers a hit when assaulted must reduce the armour value of the Vehicle by 1 on the affected facing. If any facing is reduced to 0, the Vehicle is destroyed."

This would reflect the protection of the vehicle's armour being erroded by countless impacts. Not perfect perhaps, because it would be a nightmare to keep track of, but still...

I think something like that rule given to guants would be prefect. It would represent them getting into crevices, destroying circuitry, and eating crew. It would also restore the value of a swarm horde style army that is non-existent since a whole lotta models that can't do anything are just that.

madden
10-04-2012, 19:27
And that's the current problem with nids cracking all the cheap vehicals and or land raiders, sure cracking rhinos can be done if your willing to shell out a lot of cash on hive guard and or zoe's or get lucky with our mediocre shooting, you'd think that a dedicated anti tank unit ie tfex would at least have bs 4 if not 5 but no. I'm stopping now as I'll rant other wise, I love my bugs but this current dex has more than my swarms.

Vipoid
10-04-2012, 19:33
And that's the current problem with nids cracking all the cheap vehicals and or land raiders, sure cracking rhinos can be done if your willing to shell out a lot of cash on hive guard and or zoe's or get lucky with our mediocre shooting, you'd think that a dedicated anti tank unit ie tfex would at least have bs 4 if not 5 but no. I'm stopping now as I'll rant other wise, I love my bugs but this current dex has more than my swarms.

Agreed - the lack of reliable anti-vehicle weapons outside of the elites slot, and the fact that taking out transports in CC is a terrible idea are major problems for nids.

It also hasn't helped that shooting is far more reliable than assaulting in 5th edition.

Necrofencer
10-04-2012, 20:33
What is the general opinion of tyranids right now?
To provide an answer to this tricky question, I sent the 238th Terraxian Intelligence to battle against a small tendril of Hive-Fleet Jormungand, in order to capture and interview a specimen. The recording is messy, I dare say, mainly due to an obvious unwillingness of the creature to give a straight answer to an otherwise simple question. Here is the part I found most enlightening about the topic:

Skrrrreeeeee! Ghwahshshsh wrgrbl! Shrtdkpt kfpgmrz shtkvz!

I hope this is sufficient material to satisfy your curiosity.

*Sent from my astropath using Telepatalk - Inquisitorial Edition*

Carnage
10-04-2012, 20:38
I really like the "leaked" 6th edition rule change to hitting vehicles. Moving 6" or less and they counted as WS1, moving more then 6" and they count as WS10. So genestealers, Tyrants and Trygons had an even easier time hitting slow moving vehicles, and faster ones were still hit on a 4+ usually. I mean, when you are a HtH pro, you should be more adept then a grot at hitting a moving vehicle.

As for ranged anti-tank. Unless something shifts in the main rules about the vehicle damage table we will need some of our weapons amended to be more effective.

Draconis
10-04-2012, 20:40
Cept with preferred enemy, you'd hit vehicles on 3+ all the time.

Necrofencer
10-04-2012, 20:45
I really like the "leaked" 6th edition rule change to hitting vehicles. Moving 6" or less and they counted as WS1, moving more then 6" and they count as WS10. So genestealers, Tyrants and Trygons had an even easier time hitting slow moving vehicles, and faster ones were still hit on a 4+ usually. I mean, when you are a HtH pro, you should be more adept then a grot at hitting a moving vehicle.

As for ranged anti-tank. Unless something shifts in the main rules about the vehicle damage table we will need some of our weapons amended to be more effective.
Maybe you missed the part where the CC to-hit chart of the "leak" went up to 6+ then. Because that made vehicles HARDER to hit for anything not WS5. Also, Preferred Ennemy doesn't do anything against vehicles in the "leaked" ruleset, IIRC.

PostinDirty
11-04-2012, 12:11
I started using all reserves lists as well, and they are mighty fun to play. But I can't touch transports, and if an opponent is heavily meched then its gg. Just yesterday I had a poded dakkafex and twin brainleech worm tyrant light up the rear armor of a a SM rhino. The rhino was smoked, so he made a few cover saves and -1 on the damage chart hurt a lot too. The best I could do was shake it. Almost 500 points couldn't take out a rhino! Guess what happened to that carnifex and tyrant on his turn...


For a laugh, I once tried an all-reserve list. I can't remember exactly what I had, but I know that it was based around podding in 3 dakka-fexes, along with a winged dakka-tyrant (with HC, obviously). So, my tyrant/fexes would bravely pod in, kill a 35pt transport... and then die in the enemy turn. It was a fun list, but just couldn't do anything meaningful against mech.

you're doing it wrong :P

eh, I've done ok with ymgarls and regular genestealers to crack transports. I also DS my trygons and CC tyrant, and they've done a solid job too.

Now, I'm not trying to flex my internet muscle by saying I've cracked the 'nid code or anything, there have been times the IG parking lot has creamed me, and like I've said; DE venom spam was a pointless game, the one time i faced it. I'm also not the best player by any means. But with my list I've won every game so far against mech-eldar and meched space marines I generally find a walk in the park. its the list I've had the most experience with so I guess I just make it work for me, and its largely CC, but transports haven't been an issue.


....and I've lost count of just how many 'stealers I've lost to exploding vehicles.
yep. :( I really should know by now that I should crack vehicles in a certain order too; there've been times when I've multi-assaulted, only to blow away models in a unit engaged with another target before they've had a chance to strike - oops

Vipoid
11-04-2012, 12:29
you're doing it wrong :P

Oddly enough, I didn't make my 1-dakka-tyrant-plus-3-dakkafexes-in-pods list with the expectation that it would become a tournament-winner.

I simply wanted to see if such a list could be made to work. The idea was that the carnifexes/tyrant would arrive on my opponent's backline (with hive commander, I'd expect 2/4 of my dakka-MCs to arrive in one turn), and either blast a unit or pop a vehicle by firing into its rear armour. The theory was that my opponent would be in trouble, because they'd have just 1 turn to kill 2 of my MCs, before they got into combat with things.

As it turned out, one turn was often more than enough, and the fact that my army arrived piecemeal made it easy for my opponent to concentrate fire.



eh, I've done ok with ymgarls and regular genestealers to crack transports. I also DS my trygons and CC tyrant, and they've done a solid job too.

Now, I'm not trying to flex my internet muscle by saying I've cracked the 'nid code or anything, there have been times the IG parking lot has creamed me, and like I've said; DE venom spam was a pointless game, the one time i faced it. I'm also not the best player by any means. But with my list I've won every game so far against mech-eldar and meched space marines I generally find a walk in the park. its the list I've had the most experience with so I guess I just make it work for me, and its largely CC, but transports haven't been an issue.

I'd be interested to see your list, if you'd care to post it.

Ventus
11-04-2012, 14:07
I'd also be interested to see your list PostinDirty.

itcamefromthedeep
11-04-2012, 15:45
I really like the "leaked" 6th edition rule change to hitting vehicles. Moving 6" or less and they counted as WS1, moving more then 6" and they count as WS10.The .pdf I have says that it's WS10 if they move at all, even 1". PDF page 43 for reference. WS 0 if the vehicles stays still.

I think a WS value would be a good idea for vehicle because vehicles should play by the rules more.

It's odd that there are two sets of rules: the rules and the rules for vehicles.

Vipoid
11-04-2012, 17:19
I think a WS value would be a good idea for vehicle because vehicles should play by the rules more.

Whilst I agree with this, WS10 seems silly. To me, it's reminiscent of GK vehicles all having the same Ld as a Grand Master, for the purposes of their psychic powers.



It's odd that there are two sets of rules: the rules and the rules for vehicles.

Yeah - this also creates massive differences between a weapon's effect on infantry, compared to it's effect on vehicles. For example, Impailer Cannons can shread the armour of most vehicles, but bounce off terminator armour. Conversely, a disintegrator can obliterate terminators, but struggles to scratch the hull of a Rhino.

Souleater
11-04-2012, 17:24
Tyranid close combat troops suffer from a shortage of armor, Attacks, and power weapons relative to dedicated close combat units.

Reading back through this thread I think the above is one of the truest and sadly most telling points. While I'm quite happy with the lack of armour I find the shortage of the other two frankly baffling.

Our anti-horde capabilites have increased slightly but continual degradation of WS, Attacks and Strength has kept us weak against MEQ. Add in things that the GK, BA and SW can do and our HTH capabilites often pale into insignificance.

The problem, IMO, is that GW have got 'horde army vs Heroes(tm)' firmly stuck in their minds.

Vipoid
11-04-2012, 17:34
Reading back through this read I think the above is one of the truest and sadly most telling points. While I'm quite happy with the lack of armour I find the shortage of the other two frankly baffling.

I've often wondered about this - especially when I saw Death Cult Assassins (how many S4 power-weapon attacks? :wtf:).



Our anti-horde capabilites have increased slightly but continual degradation of WS, Attacks and Strength has kept us weak against MEQ. Add in things that the GK, BA and SW can do and our HTH capabilites often pale into insignificance.

As I think was said earlier, Tyranids seem to have lost their niche. Orks to hordes better, several races have better and/or more cost-effective MCs, a lot of races have units that crush our dedicated-CC units. We just don't seem to have any defined niche, other than the depressing ability to do nothing well.



The problem, IMO, is that GW have got 'horde army vs Heroes(tm)' firmly stuck in their minds.

To be honest, I don't actually mind this design philosophy.

What I mind is that GW have a very definite idea about who is meant to win.

Souleater
11-04-2012, 19:43
Itcamefromthedeep and I have batted around shooty nids. I like shooty Nids and there is no denying their effectiveness in the current edition. I have no issue with Nids having shooting elements but as you say our CC focus seems to have gotten messed up.

It got to the point in 4th Edition that I would happily take on CWE in firefights and generally come out ahead. In 5th Edition my answer to Orks is not to try and out manoeuvre them but to bomb the smeg out of them.

We finally got power weapons back on Warriors only to find they became even more fragile to the exact things that hindered them before. Hormagaunts finally got a boost to damage but saw their WS inexplicably nerfed on the assumption that they would always be under the effect of Catalyst*. Genestealers were meant to be amongs the most dangerous HTH opponents in the galaxy but are now in a weird not-quite-horde-not-quite-elite state.

I suppose you are right about the Hordes vs Heroes bit - but the rules should still not go so far to push victory to the 'heroes'. Sure, Nids hordes should die in droves to shooting but when we get to assault we either need to be elite or able to actually be effective.

*While curiously retaining a BS equal to an Imperial Guardsman.

Vipoid
11-04-2012, 20:19
We finally got power weapons back on Warriors only to find they became even more fragile to the exact things that hindered them before. Hormagaunts finally got a boost to damage but saw their WS inexplicably nerfed on the assumption that they would always be under the effect of Catalyst*. Genestealers were meant to be amongs the most dangerous HTH opponents in the galaxy but are now in a weird not-quite-horde-not-quite-elite state.

Warriors are in a depressing state at the moment. Cruddace apparently didn't bother looking back to see why they'd been given EW, and decided instead to replace it with an extra wound, of all things.

Genestealers... are somewhat messed up at the moment, although admittedly not to the degree of warriors. Just 2 attacks each and no option for more seems more than a little dubious. I mean, I know they have good WS and I, but we're still paying marine prices for a unit with no ranged weapons, no transport, and a negligible save. Thing is, I wouldn't have minded this as much if they came with grenades. So... we're handing out grenades for free to every guardsman and marine, but an actual assault unit, which relies on striking first, isn't allowed any grenades at all.

So, what does come with grenades in our army:

Lictors (Weee...)
The Harpy (All two of its attacks...)
The Carnifex (Well praise the lord. Our I1 creature isn't reduced to I1 for charging through cover. I hate you, Cruddace.)


I suppose you are right about the Hordes vs Heroes bit - but the rules should still not go so far to push victory to the 'heroes'. Sure, Nids hordes should die in droves to shooting but when we get to assault we either need to be elite or able to actually be effective.

I quite agree. Although, I think GW has lost track of what a 'hero' actually is. Generally, someone is called heroic when they triumph against the odds. Succeeding when the odds are stacked entirely in your favour rarely result in you obtaining the title 'hero'.

For me, calling someone like Draigo a hero because he defeated 'nids or Daemons would be like calling The Dark Lord Sauron a hero, because he stomped on some orphans.

wyvirn
11-04-2012, 20:39
@ Vipod: You forgot to mention the one grenade option option we have is on the carnifex, so we can pay points to preserve the I1 when charging through cover.

Vipoid
11-04-2012, 20:41
@ Vipod: You forgot to mention the one grenade option option we have is on the carnifex, so we can pay points to preserve the I1 when charging through cover.

Ah yes... it's an upgrade... and it doesn't even come with a spinefist anymore...

Angelwing
12-04-2012, 02:16
@ Vipod: You forgot to mention the one grenade option option we have is on the carnifex, so we can pay points to preserve the I1 when charging through cover.


Ah yes... it's an upgrade... and it doesn't even come with a spinefist anymore...

The carnifex is I3 on the charge, I4 if you take the swarmlord and confer furious charge.

Admittedly though I wouldn't bother with frag spines anymore.

Carnage
12-04-2012, 02:53
The carnifex is I3 on the charge, I4 if you take the swarmlord and confer furious charge.

Admittedly though I wouldn't bother with frag spines anymore.

Also I4 if you go with adrenal glands. The bump to S10 is kind of overkill though, but swinging at the same time as MeQ isn't too bad.

Souleater
12-04-2012, 09:30
Another problem is that we can't trap passengers in vehicles and kill them that way under 5th. It used to be worth the risk of the vehicle exploding in order to kill a bunch of marines...now we don't get that and they shoot us. Double whammy.

the_picto
12-04-2012, 13:01
A thought occurs to me, how much difference would it make if the impaler cannon was more widely available? Add it to the list of heavy weapons that warriors can take, let the harpy have a twin linked one instead of venom cannons (I imagine a lot of people would prefer the impaler to the heavy venom cannon) and let tyrants and carnifexes have them as a weapon option. The book has a lot of other issues, but this would give a bit more flexibility on where to get anti tank guns.

Vipoid
12-04-2012, 13:06
A thought occurs to me, how much difference would it make if the impaler cannon was more widely available? Add it to the list of heavy weapons that warriors can take, let the harpy have a twin linked one instead of venom cannons (I imagine a lot of people would prefer the impaler to the heavy venom cannon) and let tyrants and carnifexes have them as a weapon option. The book has a lot of other issues, but this would give a bit more flexibility on where to get anti tank guns.

As a guess, you'd see it on warriors, and nothing else (besides hive guard). There's no point paying for an overpriced tyrant, carnifex, or harpy, when you can have it on a 90pt unit.

it would be nice to have the option on warriors, but it would make more sense to just make the venom cannon and heavy venom cannon actually worth a damn.

However, it would be nice if hive tyrants could choose either hive guard or tyrant guard to accompany them.

wyvirn
12-04-2012, 18:46
That would be sweet, although I hope they would be condensed into a single unit with an upgrade, I'm sick of looking up the hive guard when I mean the Tyrant guard...
^Just one of the dozens of small pet peeves about the actual codex and it's layout.

Ventus
12-04-2012, 18:46
but it would make more sense to just make the venom cannon and heavy venom cannon actually worth a damn.


This^
I want the weapon biomorphs that are already included in the kit to work effectively, whether the venom cannon, barbed strangler/stranglethorn cannon, deathspitter, etc. I don't want to see the impaler cannon added anywhere when the problem is that the weapons we have are just messed up and need fixing. Giving other units access to impaler cannons would just add to the problem of kits that don't have proper options. Look at the warrior box - one rending claw set for 3 models that have to be kitted the same, no swords, lashwhips or wings. To make a group of 3 shrike armed with bonesword and lashwhip I need to buy a box of warriors, get a package of swords/whips and buy 3 sets of warriors wings from forgeworld (assuming in this case I'm purchasing all my bits from GW) it would cost around $80 or more if I needed to find more rending claws for 3 models.

Lets use the stuff in the kits (there are enough shooting weapons for warriors/tyrants/carnifex in the kits/unit entry). The weapons just need fixing among other things. Its bad enough devourers are overused on so much since the other options are not as good. I'd hate to see impaler cannons added. In fact I would have preferred hive guard not to exist - it was unnecessary.

The warrior should have fulfilled part of the role of vehicle killer along with the carnifex (also therefore no need for the T-fex) and tyrant (swarmlord should just have been an upgrade for the tyrant - unique in a game but not in the Hive - stupid). Even the biovore should have kept/had a light anti-vehicle option. That would still have left a new dex with many new models (parasite, pod, venomthrope, trygon/mawloc, deathleaper back in, OOE back in, tyranid prime)(many that also need their rules/stats fixed). Cruddace and the gang just went nuts and were determined to replace the existing army with a new one (leaving the old stuff there but less desirable). And yes I hate the new design philosophy/direction of the nids and GWs execution of that philosophy (don't get me started on tervigons).

Vipoid
12-04-2012, 19:04
Also I4 if you go with adrenal glands. The bump to S10 is kind of overkill though, but swinging at the same time as MeQ isn't too bad.

Whilst I agree that I4 can be nice, the carnifex isn't a unit that should rely on striking first. This is why I'm annoyed at it being given grenades, whilst units and homogants are left with no option for them, and nothing to compensate for their loss.

Souleater
12-04-2012, 19:11
@ Ventus: completely agree.

Vipoid
12-04-2012, 20:13
I want the weapon biomorphs that are already included in the kit to work effectively, whether the venom cannon, barbed strangler/stranglethorn cannon, deathspitter, etc. I don't want to see the impaler cannon added anywhere when the problem is that the weapons we have are just messed up and need fixing. Giving other units access to impaler cannons would just add to the problem of kits that don't have proper options. Look at the warrior box - one rending claw set for 3 models that have to be kitted the same, no swords, lashwhips or wings. To make a group of 3 shrike armed with bonesword and lashwhip I need to buy a box of warriors, get a package of swords/whips and buy 3 sets of warriors wings from forgeworld (assuming in this case I'm purchasing all my bits from GW) it would cost around $80 or more if I needed to find more rending claws for 3 models.


Well put.

What's the point in making new guns, if you're just going to make most of the old ones obsolete at best, and completely useless at worst? That's why we now have 27 guns, and maybe 7 that you'd ever use.

I mean, out of our 27 weapons, how many follow these profiles:

1) decent strength, high rate of fire, poor AP.
2) blast or template with decent strength but poor AP.

At a rough guess, I'd say it was close to 20.

In which case, the obvious question is do we really need them all, when they perform basically the same function? And the obvious answer is no.

Surely the logical option would have been to make sure that every existing gun was still useful, and had some sort of niche within the army, then make new ones to fill in any gaps.



Lets use the stuff in the kits (there are enough shooting weapons for warriors/tyrants/carnifex in the kits/unit entry). The weapons just need fixing among other things. Its bad enough devourers are overused on so much since the other options are not as good. I'd hate to see impaler cannons added. In fact I would have preferred hive guard not to exist - it was unnecessary.

The warrior should have fulfilled part of the role of vehicle killer along with the carnifex (also therefore no need for the T-fex) and tyrant (swarmlord should just have been an upgrade for the tyrant - unique in a game but not in the Hive - stupid). Even the biovore should have kept/had a light anti-vehicle option. That would still have left a new dex with many new models (parasite, pod, venomthrope, trygon/mawloc, deathleaper back in, OOE back in, tyranid prime)(many that also need their rules/stats fixed). Cruddace and the gang just went nuts and were determined to replace the existing army with a new one (leaving the old stuff there but less desirable). And yes I hate the new design philosophy/direction of the nids and GWs execution of that philosophy (don't get me started on tervigons).

Agreed.



Tyranid close combat troops suffer from a shortage of armor, Attacks, and power weapons relative to dedicated close combat units.

I just wanted to go back to this point, because there was something I forgot to bring up:

MCs need to be tough, in order to endure attacks, before they get to strike. Smaller nids need a numbers and/or initiative advantage, in order to prevail in CC. To me, this doesn't seem difficult. So... why do our MCs feel so fragile, and why to our other units feel so damn slow? I can't be bothered complaining about the lack of invulnerable saves, EW and even 2+ saves on our MCs, so I'll go on to the other point.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but genestealers are the only unit in the army that actually feel relatively fast (unless a shrubbery is involved...), and even then, there are a lot of units that can keep pace with them. On the other hand, homogants just don't feel fast enough - when you start fighting DCAs, DE wyches, GK halberds etc., I5 becomes all but worthless. And, unfortunatly, striking first is literally the only thing they've got going for them.

I suppose what I'm saying is that if you're not going to give nids any sort of armour, you could at least make sure that they actually strike first or, at the very least, simultaneously with enemy assault units. If we're going to pay through the nose for that I5, the least you could do is first make sure that I5 is actually going to be useful.

Souleater
12-04-2012, 21:09
If you really want to depress yourself have a read through the Chaos Daemon codex. Numerous attacks, power.weapons, etc.

Draconis
12-04-2012, 22:41
For once, I'd like GW to claim up to their codexes and tell us why the Nid one was so poor. Like you said, grenades on a MC that has low I to begin with.... no grenades on things with high I.... makes no sense. Why? T6 on our MC is obvious...because lasguns can't hurt T7. Its such an obvious money grab, and so obvious that the codex was written so the other ones would perform better. Its a literal slap in the face.

itcamefromthedeep
13-04-2012, 05:03
Whilst I agree that I4 can be nice, the carnifex isn't a unit that should rely on striking first.It's more important that they not strike *last*.


I suppose what I'm saying is that if you're not going to give nids any sort of armour, you could at least make sure that they actually strike first or, at the very least, simultaneously with enemy assault units. If we're going to pay through the nose for that I5, the least you could do is first make sure that I5 is actually going to be useful.You heard it here first: the penalty for charging into terrain should be the loss of the bonus attack. It shouldn't lower Initiative. They might even do that for 6e.


Its such an obvious money grab, and so obvious that the codex was written so the other ones would perform better. Its a literal slap in the face.No, it's not a money grab because presumably if it were they would try to sell the Pyrovore. Whether a unit is good in a given codex/edition is a craps shoot.

Also, I believe you mean a *figurative* slap in the face, being a figure of speech and all.

---

Giving an impaler cannon option to MCs and Warriors would indeed solve the ranged anti-tank metagame problem, because the issue there is that the anti-tank is concentrated in a few slow units that bring no ablative Wounds.

Of course, just making the venom cannon into an anti-tank gun would be a better plan.

Vipoid
13-04-2012, 10:24
It's more important that they not strike *last*.

True, but even so, a carnifex really isn't high on my list of 'nid units that need grenades.



You heard it here first: the penalty for charging into terrain should be the loss of the bonus attack. It shouldn't lower Initiative. They might even do that for 6e.

This seems a lot more reasonable - especially since it would actually affect all armies, rather than just the ones that rely on high initiative. "Oh no! My Ork boyz have been reduced to I1, so they'll strike last in combat. Oh... wait... they would have been striking last anyway."

In addition though, I'd really like to see a reduction in the grenades that get given away for free. It gets very depressing when my assault units get penalised for moving through a shrubbery, but every single GK, SM, SW etc. get grenades for free on every model. I know I've said this before, but it just seems like the 'assaulting through cover' has become a 'not playing marines' tax.

lantzkev
13-04-2012, 10:31
Just something that added a bonus to his initiative like a "halberd" for a carnifex would improve it by letting him get the drop on power fists/hammers etc.

Souleater
13-04-2012, 13:11
Rather than adding a mechanic that boosts initiative why not opt for straightforward option of simply increasing the Fex's Initiative? :D

(c.f. Not making Warriors T5 and giving them EW instead.)

Megad00mer
13-04-2012, 14:19
The Carnifex "Living Battering Ram" rule should have been just that. Allowing a Carnifex to cause (D3, D3+1, D6, whatever) automatic hits on enemy units when it charges, similarly to Impact Hits in WFB. It circumvents the Carnifex's low initiative, completely fits the flavor of what a Carnifex is and actually makes the name of the damn special rule make sense.

A name like LIVING BATTERING RAM conjures up images of Carnifexes smashing into enemies, sending tanks and troopers flying, not striking slightly faster but still slower than everyone else in melee.

I hate you Robin Cruddace. I hate you.

Buddha777
13-04-2012, 14:57
The Carnifex "Living Battering Ram" rule should have been just that. Allowing a Carnifex to cause (D3, D3+1, D6, whatever) automatic hits on enemy units when it charges, similarly to Impact Hits in WFB. It circumvents the Carnifex's low initiative, completely fits the flavor of what a Carnifex is and actually makes the name of the damn special rule make sense.

A name like LIVING BATTERING RAM conjures up images of Carnifexes smashing into enemies, sending tanks and troopers flying, not striking slightly faster but still slower than everyone else in melee.

I hate you Robin Cruddace. I hate you.

Actually that's a great idea for a carnifex rule. Maybe it would go something like the vehicle ramming rules and allow the player to declare a direction of the carnifex then any units in say a 12" path take an automatic D3+1 hits and the fex ends up wherever it ends up after those 12" (if it's within a 1" it's locked in combat or something).

But ultimately unless something is given to the nids' to negate the advantages of mechanized forces (like giving guants an entropic strike type ability, giving effective long range AT weapons, etc.) then they will always be a second rate codex.

wyvirn
13-04-2012, 15:11
But ultimately unless something is given to the nids' to negate the advantages of mechanized forces (like giving guants an entropic strike type ability, giving effective long range AT weapons, etc.) then they will always be a second rate codex.

I think it would be cool for rippers swarms to reduce armor, or trade their attacks for an autoglance to represent them clogging up engines or ports and attacking the crew inside. BUt I disagree with your second point. There are a lot of things wrong with the codex currently, grenades in particular. But we still have the same weakness we always had, but it's magnified because that's what the current meta is. If 6th changes it back into an infantry game, and tweaks some mechanics like charging into cover, I think we can be a top notch army.

Megad00mer
13-04-2012, 15:27
In order for the Tyranid codex to become an actual, viable, competitive book in 6th ed, the following things need to happen:

Vehicle spam has to be toned down.
Monstrous Creatures need some kinda buff.
The mechanics for charging into cover need to change
Instant Death due to Strength doubling out Toughness needs to change
Reserves need to be less random

Vipoid
13-04-2012, 16:05
In order for the Tyranid codex to become an actual, viable, competitive book in 6th ed, the following things need to happen:

Vehicle spam has to be toned down.

Agreed.



Monstrous Creatures need some kinda buff.

Also agreed.

Well done GW - you've made vehicles much cheaper and more resilient, you've made high strength, low AP weapons much more prevalent... and you've made MCs much weaker and/or much more expensive. :wtf:



The mechanics for charging into cover need to change

Agreed.



Instant Death due to Strength doubling out Toughness needs to change

Actually, this is something I disagree with. I don't think this is a flaw in the core rules, so much as a a fundamental problem with the nid codex's hugh number of T4 multi-wound models, complete lack of EW, and the fact that just 3 of our multi-wound models actually have invulnerable saves (and 2 of those are special characters).



Reserves need to be less random

Again, I'd disagree, although, I think that Hive Commander from 2 tyrants should stack.

I think lictors need a) a special rule similar to SM Drop Pod Assault, which allows them to deploy automatically on either the first or second (at latest) turn. If they're going to give reserve bonuses, there's no point having them potentially turn up on turn 5. b) They should deploy in the same manner of ymgarl genestealers*.

*Alternatively, Cruddace, you're free to lazily recycle Marbo's deployment rules for lictors - but then I also expect every single one to carry a demolition charge. Your choice.

ColShaw
13-04-2012, 16:18
I think lictors need a) a special rule similar to SM Drop Pod Assault, which allows them to deploy automatically on either the first or second (at latest) turn. If they're going to give reserve bonuses, there's no point having them potentially turn up on turn 5. b) They should deploy in the same manner of ymgarl genestealers*.

*Alternatively, Cruddace, you're free to lazily recycle Marbo's deployment rules for lictors - but then I also expect every single one to carry a demolition charge. Your choice.

I agree about Lictors turning up Turn 1; they're supposed to be the advance guard of the swarm, after all.

Marbo vs. a Lictor is hilarious; it's basically the last 20 minutes of the movie "Predator" on the tabletop.

Megad00mer
13-04-2012, 16:26
Actually, this is something I disagree with. I don't think this is a flaw in the core rules, so much as a a fundamental problem with the nid codex's hugh number of T4 multi-wound models, complete lack of EW, and the fact that just 3 of our multi-wound models actually have invulnerable saves (and 2 of those are special characters).

I think that current instant death rules when it comes to S v. T are a bit too harsh for all armies. Here's my awesome Space Marine Chapter Master, kitted out for combat. Oh look, one power fist wound. I'm just dead.

I loved the way the 6th ed .pdf leak (hoax?) handled the Instant Death Rules. If the wound came from an attack with a Strength value 4 more than your Toughness, you took two wounds rather than one. 5 more = 3 wounds. 6 more = 4 wounds and so on. It still conveys the massive trauma a powerful attack can do, but makes T4 models with 3 wounds or more much more viable.


Again, I'd disagree, although, I think that Hive Commander from 2 tyrants should stack.

I think lictors need a) a special rule similar to SM Drop Pod Assault, which allows them to deploy automatically on either the first or second (at latest) turn. If they're going to give reserve bonuses, there's no point having them potentially turn up on turn 5. b) They should deploy in the same manner of ymgarl genestealers*.

I agree that Hive Commander should stack. Definitely, but I think the current reserve rolls are a bit too random. A battlefield general (especially one in a setting with technological devices, telepathic communication, teleportation, etc.) should have a bit more control over the arrival of their reinforcements.

Vipoid
13-04-2012, 16:34
I think that current instant death rules when it comes to S v. T are a bit too harsh for all armies. Here's my awesome Space Marine Chapter Master, kitted out for combat. Oh look, one power fist wound. I'm just dead.

To be honest, I don't think that's that bad - I think it would highlight the mortality of commanders, and make players think more carefully before charging them into combat.

In all honesty though I think a partial fix would be to say that ICs can only be singled out in combat by other ICs - rather than letting PF-sargeants/PK-nobz mash ICs, whilst the ICs aren't allowed to attack them back.



I loved the way the 6th ed .pdf leak (hoax?) handled the Instant Death Rules. If the wound came from an attack with a Strength value 4 more than your Toughness, you took two wounds rather than one. 5 more = 3 wounds. 6 more = 4 wounds and so on. It still conveys the massive trauma a powerful attack can do, but makes T4 models with 3 wounds or more much more viable.

To be honest, I really hope those rules don't come into play. To me, it seems more like "Oh goody, SM commanders are now harder to kill, but my already-vulnerable and overpriced-MCs will soon be taking double wounds from high-strength atacks. Weee..."

Megad00mer
13-04-2012, 16:57
To be honest, I don't think that's that bad - I think it would highlight the mortality of commanders, and make players think more carefully before charging them into combat.

But that's not fun. Remember this is a game first and foremost. I think most players want their commanders to actually be able to mix it up a bit in melee rather than cowering in the backfield because an errant Str 8 attack can end their day.


In all honesty though I think a partial fix would be to say that ICs can only be singled out in combat by other ICs - rather than letting PF-sargeants/PK-nobz mash ICs, whilst the ICs aren't allowed to attack them back.

Actually, I think that would make commanders MUCH more powerful than the Instant Death changes I'm proposing. It essentially makes any unit they join a retinue, making them untargetable unless the are fighting a unit with another IC.


To be honest, I really hope those rules don't come into play. To me, it seems more like "Oh goody, SM commanders are now harder to kill, but my already-vulnerable and overpriced-MCs will soon be taking double wounds from high-strength atacks. Weee..."

How so? As most MC's are T6, they only thing that would cause an extra wound would be Str 10 attacks, which honestly seems right from a thematic standpoint.

If anything it would make things like Harpies more viable. A wound from a railgun would cause 3 wounds rather than just insta killing it. It's not much, but it's something.

Vipoid
13-04-2012, 17:17
But that's not fun. Remember this is a game first and foremost. I think most players want their commanders to actually be able to mix it up a bit in melee rather than cowering in the backfield because an errant Str 8 attack can end their day.


True, but nor are near-invincible heroes fun - this is one of the reasons I hate SCs with EW.


Actually, I think that would make commanders MUCH more powerful than the Instant Death changes I'm proposing. It essentially makes any unit they join a retinue, making them untargetable unless the are fighting a unit with another IC.

Exactly. For as much as I dislike stupidly-tough hero models, I think that commander models should at least be killed in combat by other commanders - not just a random sargeant or nob with a power claw/fist.



How so? As most MC's are T6, they only thing that would cause an extra wound would be Str 10 attacks, which honestly seems right from a thematic standpoint.

Two Words - Rad Grenades.

In terms of S10 weapons doing more wounds, MCs really don't need this when they already compare terribly to vehicles. yes, it's more realistic. Know what else is realistic - having your vehicle blow up and dying a horrible, fiery death - as opposed to, say, walking away from the wreckage with nothing but a few scratches and proceeding to massacre whatever destroyed your tank.

Also, what about force weapons? Are they going to inflict 2 wounds with a successful psychic test, or are they going to continue obliterating any MC they touch, regardless of wounds?

Megad00mer
13-04-2012, 19:53
True, but nor are near-invincible heroes fun - this is one of the reasons I hate SCs with EW.

Exactly. For as much as I dislike stupidly-tough hero models, I think that commander models should at least be killed in combat by other commanders - not just a random sargeant or nob with a power claw/fist.

These two sentences seem to contradict each other. A hero that can't be targeted by anything less than another hero is more than stupidly tough, he's nigh invincible. A hero that can take a power fist wound and still remain standing with one wound left is tough. One that can't even be hit by a normal solider is just ridiculous. With Tyranids, often the only way we can take down an enemy hero is weight of attacks (even the best warriors should be able to be overwhelmed by sheer numbers) but your proposed change would make them almost immune against anything short of a Tyranid Prime.

Yes, having two IC's duke it out is always entertaining and cinematic, but making it the only way to kill an IC in close combat is a tad absurd.


Two Words - Rad Grenades.

In terms of S10 weapons doing more wounds, MCs really don't need this when they already compare terribly to vehicles. yes, it's more realistic. Know what else is realistic - having your vehicle blow up and dying a horrible, fiery death - as opposed to, say, walking away from the wreckage with nothing but a few scratches and proceeding to massacre whatever destroyed your tank.

Rad grenades, like the entire GK codex seems custom tailored to give Tyranids a very rough time. Anything we can do, they have a hard counter for. It makes our already struggling book that much worse. I also agree that units embarked in a transport that explodes should be punished a helluva lot more than they are currently. Auto pinned at the very least. But that's neither here nor there.


Also, what about force weapons? Are they going to inflict 2 wounds with a successful psychic test, or are they going to continue obliterating any MC they touch, regardless of wounds?

Force Weapons work by snuffing out the life force of the wounded model, rather than inflicting massive trauma, so they'll still kill a model outright on a successful psychic test. The instant death changes in the Pdf only dealt with S v. T.

Vipoid
13-04-2012, 20:07
These two sentences seem to contradict each other. A hero that can't be targeted by anything less than another hero is more than stupidly tough, he's nigh invincible. A hero that can take a power fist wound and still remain standing with one wound left is tough. One that can't even be hit by a normal solider is just ridiculous.

So, to calrify, a character who can shrug off most wounds with an armour/invulnerable save, and takes only a single wound from siege-weapons is "tough", whereas one who relies on bodyguards to protect him is "ridiculous" and "nigh invincible". :wtf:

ASSASSINAWOKEN
13-04-2012, 20:07
The last few posts have been very nice to read. I find it a great now flaming analysis on the actual problems and more importantly the weapon issues and bio morphs. For the Tyranids to be an organic army, they don't often play as an organic army anymore. There upgrades came from bio-morphs so it felt as if the army adapted to each situation instead of now its mostly upgrades.

I am disappointed the venom cannon was lowered even further in usefulness. I mean does it take much to actually think about new ideas? The whole -1 blows and does any other army have that on there furthest ranged weapon? I feel it could have had more potential in design. Say keep the -1, but keep the strength and maybe even minus the blast. I preferred the previous two shots to a random useless last template. I think a clever idea would be to put the organic back into the weapon, it fires crystals after all. Firing crystals would sound more like heavy 2 compared to the heavy blast. Even as weak as it is, the blast is what gets me the most to were I don't ever use it at all.

Megad00mer
13-04-2012, 20:19
So, to calrify, a character who can shrug off most wounds with an armour/invulnerable save, and takes only a single wound from siege-weapons is "tough", whereas one who relies on bodyguards to protect him is "ridiculous" and "nigh invincible". :wtf:

In gameplay terms yes. It's hard enough to deal with characters like Vulkan, Draigo, even a Shadowfield Archon as it is. Now imagine if the only way to even target that model is with an Independant Character. You don't think that's even slightly unbalanced?

Actual Retinues are one thing. You pay for those. But any unit becoming a Retinue automatically simply by an IC joining? That would push combat IC's into the realms of "stupidly overpowered"

There's a huge difference (again, gameplay wise) between a character being able to survive a Power Fist hit and a character being nearly completely immune to enemy attacks.

Edit: Also remember that the pdf Instant Death rules scale up with weapon Strength, so a T4 character taking a wound from a Str 10 Vindicator shot or an Adrenalfex would suffer 4 wounds. So still insta killed by anything Str 9 or higher.

Zothos
13-04-2012, 20:42
I find all this very interesting. I have a grey knight army and tyranids are one of my toughest opponents.

As a matter of fact Tyranids are one of my toughest opponents for all my armies. I have been playing for 25 years.

I agree that Tyranids have some serious internal balance issues. However, I think that folks have seriously put too much stock in the "Internet wisdom" regarding the army as a whole.

Vipoid
13-04-2012, 20:47
In gameplay terms yes. It's hard enough to deal with characters like Vulkan, Draigo, even a Shadowfield Archon as it is. Now imagine if the only way to even target that model is with an Independant Character. You don't think that's even slightly unbalanced?

I understand what you mean - I'd just prefer overly-strong characters to be toned down, rather than changing the mechanics to bring basic commanders up to their level.

Also, I just find it irritating that sargeants can snipe ICs, without even needing base contact with them.


Actual Retinues are one thing. You pay for those.

Do you?

A lot of the retinues I've seen appear no more expensive than their normal counterparts.



Edit: Also remember that the pdf Instant Death rules scale up with weapon Strength, so a T4 character taking a wound from a Str 10 Vindicator shot or an Adrenalfex would suffer 4 wounds. So still insta killed by anything Str 9 or higher.

Tbh, this is something I don't like about those rules - T5 suddenly becomes less useful, because the threshold changes.

As an example, I can currently put my Tyranid Prime with zoanthropes, venomthropes and the like, in order to protect them from S8-9 hits (meltas, rockets, lascannons etc.), which would otherwise ID them. However, if the ID rules were to be changed, my prime is suddenly taking double the wounds from S9 weapons, making him far less useful.

It's just annoying because toughness is one of the few things we have going for us, and this ruling would make high toughness far less useful.

Megad00mer
13-04-2012, 20:56
I understand what you mean - I'd just prefer characters like those to be toned down, rather than changing the mechanics to bring basic commanders up to their level.

Also, I just find it irritating that sargeants can snipe ICs, without even needing base contact with them.

I completely understand the irritation. The current IC rules when it comes to close combat are a bit wonky.


Do you?

A lot of the retinues I've seen appear no more expensive than their normal counterparts.

True, but you're still paying points for the actual unit itself because it's a retinue. As opposed to just sticking an IC with that unit you woulda bought anyway and have them just "become" a retinue.




Tbh, this is something I don't like about those rules - T5 suddenly becomes less useful, because the threshold changes.

As an example, I can currently put my Tyranid Prime with zoanthropes, venomthropes and the like, in order to protect them from S8-9 hits (meltas, rockets, lascannons etc.), which would otherwise ID them. However, if the ID rules were to be changed, my prime is suddenly taking double the wounds from S9 weapons, making him far less useful.

It's just annoying because toughness is one of the few things we have going for us, and this ruling would make high toughness far less useful.

I see your point. It does punish the Prime a bit but at the same time makes things like Warriors, Raveners and Lictors a lot more survivable. It's a double edged sword. Personally, I would prefer to have my Tyranid Warriors be able to survive a Krak Missile hit, which is a far more common scenario if it means my Prime would suffer 2 wounds from a Lascannon which is less likely to happen due to wound allocation vs shooting.

Vepr
13-04-2012, 21:01
As a rational adult I am disturbed over just how frustrated I am over the quality of the Tyranid codex. I want to give Cruddace a wedgie which directly contradicts my argument that I am indeed a rational adult . :p

Vipoid
13-04-2012, 21:34
True, but you're still paying points for the actual unit itself because it's a retinue. As opposed to just sticking an IC with that unit you woulda bought anyway and have them just "become" a retinue.

I'd say it depends.

For example, I might want to buy a squad soely for the purpose of escorting my Tyranid Prime, such as warriors. Now, I wouldn't normally buy warriors, and no option exists to field them as a retinue. So, despite the fact that they're almost identical to the Prime, and "act as one entity", enemies can still single out the Prime with no issues whatsoever.



I see your point. It does punish the Prime a bit but at the same time makes things like Warriors, Raveners and Lictors a lot more survivable. It's a double edged sword. Personally, I would prefer to have my Tyranid Warriors be able to survive a Krak Missile hit, which is a far more common scenario if it means my Prime would suffer 2 wounds from a Lascannon which is less likely to happen due to wound allocation vs shooting.

Whilst I understand the benefit to warriors, I'd rather keep my Prime as he is. Fisrtly, because he is a more versitile and more useful unit (IMO), and second, because it hardly seems fair that a ruling supposedly put in place to make characters more difficult to kill instead makes my favourite character *easier* to kill.

Draconis
14-04-2012, 04:08
I find all this very interesting. I have a grey knight army and tyranids are one of my toughest opponents.

As a matter of fact Tyranids are one of my toughest opponents for all my armies. I have been playing for 25 years.

I agree that Tyranids have some serious internal balance issues. However, I think that folks have seriously put too much stock in the "Internet wisdom" regarding the army as a whole.


I'm not sure how. You have high S weapons that pen our saves. You have higher I with halberds, grenades so you strike first when in cover, auto pass on force weapons... Flame template items that instantly remove our MCs

Carnage
14-04-2012, 05:01
I find all this very interesting. I have a grey knight army and tyranids are one of my toughest opponents.

As a matter of fact Tyranids are one of my toughest opponents for all my armies. I have been playing for 25 years.

I agree that Tyranids have some serious internal balance issues. However, I think that folks have seriously put too much stock in the "Internet wisdom" regarding the army as a whole.

Beating Tyranids is....formulaic. Abuse cover, mech up, multiple combat resolution stuff to death...etc. Every Tyranid unit has a massive glaring weakness of some sort, and you just have to beat them via that method. Very few other armies have so many and such glaring short falls in their defenses that are so easy to abuse.

I've said it dozens of times before, Tyranids are a noob hammer army. Once you fully understand all the finer points of the rules beating nids is just an exercise in proper application of your forces. The only time people think nids are over powered or a "solid" army is when they don't understand the rules well enough to exploit their weaknesses. It's why you see Nids do so well against newer or weaker players, and so painfully bad against top end lists and players. The swing is....unparalleled with any other army that I've seen.

lantzkev
14-04-2012, 05:11
I will second that, I got floored by one tyrannid player a couple months back, but it was my first time playing against shrieks(I think is what they were called) like that (flying tyrannid warrior things?)

My usually tyrannid opponent adopted those into his army (he's building so it's taking him time) but they were easily delt with, since I knew what they did.

Now don't get me wrong though, that's a hard as nails unit as far as I am concerned, I certainly consider them dangerous and worth of time and effort to deal with. But once you know what each thing in a army does it's able to be delt with.

One of the biggest problems it seems is that you can either dakka parts of the army to bits, or melee them to bits, they have little that neither are super effective routes to destroy them with... It's fine and all (much like tau) but somedays I feel like they should be a little faster army than they are, that they should have more units with fleet or with a faster base speed (and for free)

Vipoid
14-04-2012, 10:15
Beating Tyranids is....formulaic. Abuse cover, mech up, multiple combat resolution stuff to death...etc. Every Tyranid unit has a massive glaring weakness of some sort, and you just have to beat them via that method. Very few other armies have so many and such glaring short falls in their defenses that are so easy to abuse.

I've said it dozens of times before, Tyranids are a noob hammer army. Once you fully understand all the finer points of the rules beating nids is just an exercise in proper application of your forces. The only time people think nids are over powered or a "solid" army is when they don't understand the rules well enough to exploit their weaknesses. It's why you see Nids do so well against newer or weaker players, and so painfully bad against top end lists and players. The swing is....unparalleled with any other army that I've seen.

I think this is a good assessment.

This is purely anecdotal, but I'm reminded of when I first used 5th edition nids, and my army included about 5 warriors (plus attached prime) with lash whips, boneswords and toxin sacs. My opponents said that they were totally overpowered, after they minced several strong units in CC, and won me the game. However, they soon changed their minds, once they realised that they were 50pt, T4 models, with only a 4+ save for protection. After that, they just didn't make it across the field.

Freman Bloodglaive
15-04-2012, 02:41
It seems that 'nids need more than a few things to make them competitive.

Though they should never be a mech army, they should be competitive in the same way that a bike marine, Deathwing, or DoA Blood Angels army is.

Fast through natural mobility and tough through natural durability or numbers. Fleet should be a universal rule for any unit Warrior sized or smaller. Bigger creatures should pack high toughness and good (3+ or better) armour saves. Warriors should be T5 with W2 which reduces their vulnerability to missile spam.

Basic bugs should be reduced in points a little bit. Instinctive behaviour should probably be discarded, reverting to the normal "fearless within synapse range" rule.

Big bugs should ignore combat resolution from small bugs in the same way that dreadnoughts ignore results generated by killing infantry around them.

Tyranid guns should be effective at killing armour, including melta type effects, and carried by anything Warrior size and up. That gives the mid sized bugs the dual ability to be fast and pack anti-tank weapons. Shrikes would function like attack bike squadrons, popping transports so the little bugs can eat the tasty contents.

Freman Bloodglaive
15-04-2012, 02:44
With a reasonable points drop and the option of decent ranged weapons, Grey Knights might still be dangerous in melee but they'd have to work a lot harder to get there.

lantzkev
15-04-2012, 02:56
Though they should never be a mech army, they should be competitive in the same way that a bike marine, Deathwing, or DoA Blood Angels army is

So they should be space marines to be competitive? or in power armor? Tryannids should universally have some sort of attack that drops the armor by one.

theDarkGeneral
15-04-2012, 03:26
We've found that in Mega-Apocalypse Events, Tyranids are down right scary as they should be! It's too bad GW doesn't give them some love and update their data sheets!

Freman Bloodglaive
15-04-2012, 05:12
So they should be space marines to be competitive? or in power armor? Tryannids should universally have some sort of attack that drops the armor by one.

I said they should be competitive in the same way, mobile and durable without transports.

I then proceeded to give ideas on how to achieve that goal. Your response comes across like, "if Tau have fast melta armed skimmers then they'd be Space Marines."

lantzkev
15-04-2012, 05:21
Your examples of competitive are exclusively marines. Your examples are equating them to marine stuff...

Carnage
15-04-2012, 06:22
Your examples of competitive are exclusively marines. Your examples are equating them to marine stuff...

He has a point though. All the non-mech semi-competitive and up lists are marines...period.

He could compare them to demons...or green tide orks or something else, but he's trying to get the point across that there are current non-mech armies that DO work. It seems that they only really work because they are all tougher then a MeQ across the board with either T5 3+, T4 2+ or T4 3+ and FnP. So to be a competitive non-mech army at the moment you need to be tougher then a standard marine. Considering you won't see genestealer or gaunts with power armor that kind of means that tyranids are almost impossible to make competitive in the current ruleset. Until there are significant nerfs to transports and changes to the main rules or a 10-25% point decrease across the board for Tyranids they will continue to be crumby.

lantzkev
15-04-2012, 06:25
that's just the thing, you actually don't need to make them like marines.

Faster movement for one would do it, reducing armour saves against their melee by 1 would do a ton too.

Saying they have to be marines but bugs is just silly.

Also there are other armies that are competitive, it's just people aren't playing them en masse. Face it, marines are easy and fun for more players than other armies.

Souleater
15-04-2012, 07:43
I have to politely ask if you are trolling or just in dire need of sleep? :D

Nobody is saying Nids need to become MEQ. They are pointing out that with the way things are (particularly the ruleset, IMO) foot armies tend to be Marine based.

5th Ed took away the risk vs reward element of transports (for attackers and passengers). Horde CC armies are actively punished for trying to work the way they should. Unfortunately, our heavy CC hitters took some stupid design choices to the knee.

And to top things off we have armies like GK, SW and DE who can out-shoot and manoeuvre us while giving us a bloody nose in CC.

Fingers crossed, 6th will be more friendly to us and we get a decently written codex within a couple of years.

lantzkev
15-04-2012, 08:39
probably a mix of sleep and just seeing only Sphees Mhareens being whispered by tendriled mouths of nids that set me off =p

I however don't disagree that the nids need a few things improved for them and that they need adjustments. Although I haven't quite seen effective baby maker lists yet, and I think those have some potential

Carnage
15-04-2012, 18:31
probably a mix of sleep and just seeing only Sphees Mhareens being whispered by tendriled mouths of nids that set me off =p

I however don't disagree that the nids need a few things improved for them and that they need adjustments. Although I haven't quite seen effective baby maker lists yet, and I think those have some potential

The reason that foot lists favor MeQ is pretty easy to understand.

1. They have power armor. So killing more then 5 man units via shooting takes a TON of fire power. I've seen 15 genestealers wiped out in a single turn of bolter fire. That's 255 points of toxin stealers. That would be 5 dead marines, and thanks to wound allocation games, probably only ~90 points. We lose 2.5-3 times as many points to equal amounts of fire power. Granted, cover lessens that number, but when they can pick and choose where the fight will go down, you have to come into the open at some point.

2. They don't break and run away. Can't run them down even if you do win against them in melee.

3. Combat resolution, armor, and "double dipping". This is a little realized side effect of having a good armor save in melee, for every point your armor save is better, you massively reduce the amount of damage you take. I'm pretty sure the decrease is multiplicative, if not exponential. The problem is that you pay for armor increases in a linear fashion. Example;

No armor - You take 18 wounds on your 20 man squad, you kill 1 in return (50% of guys kill someone lets say). You lose by 17 and lose 17 more guys. Wiped out. total wounds inflicted = 35
6+ save - You now only take 15 wounds, you kill 3 in return. You lose by 12, and take 10 more wound. Wiped out, but by less. Total wounds inflicted = 25
5+ save - You now only suffer 12 wounds on you 20 man squad, you kill 4 in return and lose by 8. Lose another 5 to combat res. Total wounds inflicted = 17
4+ save - You take 9 wounds, kill 5 in return, lose by 4. lose another 2 to combat. Total wounds suffer = 11.
3+ save - You take 6 wounds, kill 7 in return, win by 1. Lose nothing to combat res. Total wounds suffered = 6
2+ save - you take 3 wounds, kill 9 in return, win by 6. total suffered = 3

35 - grot level
25 - gant/boyz/DE level
17 - stealer/IG level
11 - Fire warrior level
6 - MeQ level
3 - Terminator level

Since fearless makes you take armor saves, you basically have to take another armor save for each you fail. So the worse your save, the more you have to make. In this example, power armor is almost 3 times as good as a 5+ save, and you can bet your ass that marines don't cost 3 times, or even 2 times as much as your model with a 5+.

IMO fearless combat resolution wounds should allow no saves and should not be applied multiple times in multiple combats. Eg, you have 10 gants and a tervigon in combat and lost by 12, all the gants take 1, tervigon takes 1 and the gants take the 1 left over. Apply it like shooting into 1 big unit or something.

Souleater
16-04-2012, 13:22
I'd go back to the Old NR rules, actually. They worked well and they were balanced.

Vipoid
16-04-2012, 13:34
I'd go back to the Old NR rules, actually. They worked well and they were balanced.

I think capping them at 4 wounds maximum was important.

Azzy
17-04-2012, 02:50
To provide an answer to this tricky question, I sent the 238th Terraxian Intelligence to battle against a small tendril of Hive-Fleet Jormungand, in order to capture and interview a specimen. The recording is messy, I dare say, mainly due to an obvious unwillingness of the creature to give a straight answer to an otherwise simple question. Here is the part I found most enlightening about the topic:


I hope this is sufficient material to satisfy your curiosity.

*Sent from my astropath using Telepatalk - Inquisitorial Edition*

^ This post is made of win.

Vaktathi
17-04-2012, 17:48
My experiences:

They can work well if you're taking multiple Tervigons. The army seems to live and die by these things.

If not, then they don't work very well on a consistent basis against anything but niche lists.

Ventus
20-04-2012, 14:57
I am fine with fearless units taking no retreat wounds (maybe with a cap) but just not have it spill over to other units. A price for being fearless is fine - its just too high right now. Remove spillover and you can support a group of termagants with a trygon or something and not have it get mauled when it wasn't even attacked.

I hope numbers of models in the combat becomes a factor again for horde armies. Also someone had a great idea about large groups of gaunts(or something else) attacking vehicles should be able to do some damage to the vehicle by weight of numbers jamming themselves into gears or vulnerable areas, etc. If CC units attack and destroy a vehicle and they are automatically engaged (or at least a good chance) with the troops inside that would alleviate the problem of the troops sauntering out of the wreckage and shooting our guys to death. This needs to be better balanced but I do appreciate that it has to be done carefully to avoid making units such as ymgarls (that can attack the turn they arrive) too powerful.

Morgrad
20-04-2012, 20:09
I find I'm very competitive with my 'nids, but that usually means getting a lot of ties or barely winning/barely losing (which is great fun! I wish every army worked that way!). That said, the internal balance and wonky points costing is frustrating and annoying. I want to bring pyrovores, lictors and carnifexs, but if I do I just can't compete in a mech heavy environment. I would accept any one of these changes to "fix" 'nids -- too many of them would make me too powerful.

1. Synapse = EW. Give me that back and I can compete in any game, anywhere. LET ME USE MY 'NID WARRIORS AND DON'T AUTO-GEEK MY ZOEYS, *%&@#(^#&!!!!

2. Give me some anti-tank troop/fast-attack/hq choices (ideally by making VCs into anti-tank weaponry), so all of my elites (and most of my HS) don't have to be. I also want to use Ymgarls and the Doom.

3. Auto-equip my gribblies (gants/gaunts/stealers/gargoyles) with frag grenades, for no more points than I already pay.

4. Re-cost carnifexs and winged tyrants to make them worth bringing. I would love to bring carnifex broods, but for the life of me I can't think of why I would other than that I love the models.

5. Make exploding a vehicle more dangerous for the guys inside than those without, and if I destroyed it in hand to hand, either auto-pin the occupants, or lock them into melee with me.

6. Either give me wound shenanigans or get rid of them altogether -- preferably the latter.

Give me any of these and I'd be happy, if you give me more than one (other than #6) then some balancing nerf would need to take place to keep me from being overpowered.

'nids are a very good army, and I'm very competitive with them -- but the balancing is mind-bogglingly frustrating. Internal balance forcing me to take elites and heavy support as anti-tank is stupid, and the higher points the game, the dumber I am not to max out anti-tank in those spots (and against pure mech it's still woefully ineffective). External balancing vs. other peoples' units is equally so -- genestealers for their points are purely out-matched by most other armies' h2h units. Only two attacks, the rending nerf, and no frag grenades makes them pretty good -- and of all things, genestealers should be great at chopping things up in hand to hand. Carnifexs are embarrassingly over-costed , as are flyrants (due to no guard). My best is no match for anyone else's best -- shooting, hand-to-hand, horde, close-combat elites, or flyers.

All of that said: they're fun, they're competitive if you obey the internal balance restrictions, the models are awesome, and I love playing them.