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Twisted Ferret
01-03-2012, 18:22
I asked this question years ago, right when Daemons of Chaos were first being separated from the Hordes of Chaos, and the conclusion was that Tzeentch Daemons were pretty much #1, and High Elves, Lizardmen, and Tzeentch Warriors of Chaos were next in line.

So... is it still like this? Which armies have the most-feared magic phases?

Edit: I'm thinking in terms of possible magical might, here, rather than what a "typical" list might put out; I'd be dumping all my points into wizards and arcane items and the like, even if it's unsound strategy :p, so that might make a difference to your rankings.

As has been pointed out below, there are also a couple ways to look at it. I was thinking, in particular & in order of importance (the latter three are more for fun):

1.) Best overall magic phase: no matter how it's done, whichever forces can use magic to the best effect in a magic-optimized build.

2.) Best single casters, not including special characters.

3.) Best single casters, including special characters.

4.) Just for fun: highest number of individual casters! :D

***

I love Chaos - both the background, and the models - but one of the main reasons I'm expanding my dusty Tzeentch Warriors army is that I've always really loved using magic in my armies. (Apparently, mages are a bit overpowered in 8th... I swear, I've liked using them since day one! I'm not cheesing! :cheese:) If they're now so-so in the magic phase, then I might have to switch and start collecting a new army altogether.

Back in my day, the Mark of Tzeentch gave an extra +1 power die, as I recall, so I'm a bit worried about this change that gives it a +2 Ward save or some scheisse. Of course, the consensus seems to be that now it's even better, but I want Tzeentch to be all about magic, dammit. :p

theunwantedbeing
01-03-2012, 18:25
Vampires.

They have to have a mage general and if they don't spend their entire magic phase raising troops, they lose.
If the general dies, they lose.
If you roll badly for the winds of magic, they lose.

:)

The Low King
01-03-2012, 18:26
1. Dark elves.
2. High elves
3. Lizardmen
4. WOC

xxRavenxx
01-03-2012, 18:42
1. Dark elves.
2. High elves
3. Lizardmen
4. WOC

Switch #4 for VC and I'd say you were roughly right.


Woodelves might be the subtle contender for the top few though. They seem to struggle without 2x lvl 4 casters to bring them enough buffs to the table. That said, if their lvl 2s could take a useful lore of magic, it might not be so much the case.

mindrazor
01-03-2012, 18:45
why does everybody say that lizardmen has good magic? the only good spellcaster they have is a lord, and he cost 275p!

but anyways, heres what i belive would be the top 3.

1.Vampires
2.WoC
3.skaven

Jack of Blades
01-03-2012, 18:51
I don't see what makes WoC even be considered on a magic heavy scale? they're nowhere near as magic heavy as say DE, HE, Lizardmen or Beastmen. The only things WoC have got in their magic phase is +1 to cast if you're using Tzeentch (who doesn't) and power familiar (which seems to be much rarer). That's it.

The Low King
01-03-2012, 18:56
why does everybody say that lizardmen has good magic? the only good spellcaster they have is a lord, and he cost 275p!

Yeah...but give him a few upgrades and he becomes insane with Loremaster, +1 dice every spell, 2+ save against a miscast, force enemy wizard within 24" to ignore 6s....


WOC i guess dont have the PD power of some other armies but i put them in there because of their Puppet, Lores (Gateway) and other bonus'...

sulla
01-03-2012, 19:42
I don't see what makes WoC even be considered on a magic heavy scale? they're nowhere near as magic heavy as say DE, HE, Lizardmen or Beastmen. The only things WoC have got in their magic phase is +1 to cast if you're using Tzeentch (who doesn't) and power familiar (which seems to be much rarer). That's it.
WoC have a rightly feared magic phase with just one caster. A tz lvl4 with gateway and pandaemonium can cast both just about any phase with his +5 to cast. Pandaemonbium drains 2 power dice from the oponents magic phase if it gets through because it must be dispelled before they cast. Gateway can either be chucked at a deathstar in the hope of takling them off the board or wipe a monster or disruption unit out with average rolls. Those 2 spells plus a puppet guarantee a very effective (but incredibly boring) magic phase for WoC. I think they deserve a seat at the top table.

Right now I'd give daemons top spot because of widescale access to loremaster and Kairos, followed by HE, DE, WoC.

Vampire magic is good but not great now. It's much easier to manage what an opposition vampire player can get through against you compared to the other 4 mentioned.

Phazael
01-03-2012, 19:44
Lizardmen, hands down. Loremaster, Bonus Dice, No 6s for you, and Cupped Hands. There is not a better wizard in the game, especially when he is packing lore of Light or Life.

Dark Elves get great synergy with shadow and the ability to ram through Mind Razor on the key turn, but no loremaster and no stubborn bunker, so they are a step behind lizardmen.

If SCs are in the mix, then DoC and High Elves are next, but without Teclis and Kairos, I think the nod has to go to Skaven for third place with the spamming of 13th.

thesheriff
01-03-2012, 20:05
why does everybody say that lizardmen has good magic? the only good spellcaster they have is a lord, and he cost 275p!

Well, you say 275pts as if its too much (correct me if im wrong). But if you break it down;

275pts Base
-45pts for his 4++
-50 for his free discipline
-35 for his lv3-4 upgrade (compared to a similar lord level mage)

That puts him at 145 for his profile, which i think is quite undercosted, especially if you factor in his potential damage outut and survivability with Wargera, BSB and Disciplines

On a more progressive note, its hard to say. Most armies can do magic well. And in two ways;

You have armies that focus of "quality" mages. Expensive wargear, but few actual mages in a "magic heavy" army. In this catagory, I would place;
*High elves
*Lizardmen
*Dark Elves
*Warriors

You then have mages that focus on quality. Lots of cheap mages, and most likley a cheap lv.4 @ 2k + 1/2 more Lord choices in some cases. These are;
*Empire
*Skaven
*Daemons (in conventional, 8th edition builds, ommitting GD's and focusing on one big unit of horrors and many, MANY Heralds)
*Goblins
*Beatmen (herdstone FTW!)

So, in theory, all of thsoe could be considerd "Magic heavy". My personal verdict goes to daemons. 3/4 of there heros can be/are mages. They have Lv.4 units as troops. And Loremaster mages for 140pts. Bargain!

thesheriff

warplock
01-03-2012, 20:33
Then there are the armies which rely on magic more than other armies (disregarding how good they are at it). Lizardmen and VC take the top spots for this, I reckon. VC obviously as their troops are mediocre and they lose double every time they lose combat, magic holds them together and keeps them from just collapsing in a soggy heap (gameplay wise as well as fluff-wise). Lizardmen have arguably the best Mage but also seem to be extremely reliant on him for all their top builds. Low WS, low I, relatively expensive troops, medium resilience, not particularly fast, and not really able to stand up to anyone's elites, they need all the buffs to tip them over the edge.

Twisted Ferret
01-03-2012, 21:17
Lotta info here; thanks, y'all. :) So Dark Elves, High Elves, and Lizardmen seem to be pretty well-established as being good in the magic phase, but there's some contention over Vampire Counts, Warriors and Daemons of Chaos.

I've been seriously considering a Vampire Counts army, but it appears that they're more magic-dependent than particularly good at it - does this seem right to everyone else? Of course, I want you to tell me that fielding a necromancer-heavy force would dominate in the magic phase, because I absolutely love necromancers. I also loathe vampires, though, so if it's still got that "must have a vampire general" (VC did have that at one time, right?) that puts a damper on my enthusiasm. Although the Necrarch is pretty cool, come to think of it.

But we can no longer field specific bloodlines (I think), so my model would be "Generic Vampire That I Say Is A Necrarch"... hmm. As long as he can be a level four wizard or get other Necrarch-y upgrades, I suppose.

I'd also like to hear the general consensus on the WoC magic phase; is it "rightly feared", as sulla contends, or do they just lack the power dice that, say, a HE or Lizardmen army could field? Or both, perhaps?

My goal here is to build a force that has sorcerers and sorcery as a main - perhaps the main - strength and tactical element, so if Warriors can do some nasty stuff in the magic phase (as everyone agrees, right?) but would be stymied entirely in the face of a HE or Lizardmen army (would they?), then that's sub-optimal. I want to steamroll everything in my path with sheer magical might, dammit! :evilgrin:

***

One related question: what forces do you think can field the best single wizard? Both with and without special characters considered. I'm pretty sure Lizardmen take first, either way, with the Slann and Lord Kroak - though I've heard he was nerfed since I last played. I think WoC (and DoC) can also upgrade their sorcerers to be pretty damn mean, and they have Fateweaver. High Elves have Teclis, though I don't know how good he is in in-game terms, and Dark Elves have Morathi. I don't know how a level four DE Sorceress compares to a level four HE mage, both loaded down with wargear... any ideas?

Twisted Ferret
01-03-2012, 21:23
Forgot to add - I'm thinking in terms of possible magical might, here, rather than what a "typical" list might put out. I'd be dumping all my points into wizards and arcane items and the like, even if it's a bit unwise :p, so that might make a difference in the rankings.

Hawthorne
01-03-2012, 21:30
This is just my opinion. If we look at who has the most powerful magic phase or "does magic the best" with normal casters I'd say Lizardmen.
Properly outfitted Slaan is a loremaster with an extra D6 on each cast +level (4) and miscast-proof etc.

If we look at who has the best caster it's either Fateweaver or Teclis.

If we look at who uses magic most prominently (like it's a necessity, makes sense, and works well) I'd say Vampire Counts.

The oddballs are Dark Elfs and Warriors after that.
Dark Elfs obviously have great sorcerers just not sure where to place them (maybe the best overall casters without being just a single lord or something).
Warriors have huge potential on a single caster lord so that's worth mentioning.
I also feel like Beastmen deserve some mention since they CAN have a powerful magic phase with the use of a shard of the herdstone and many low level casters; just an honorable mention.


So I don't know how I'd do a top 5 list since it's hard to assess who has the most powerful magic phase (do we look at "overall", best potential caster including special character, without special characters, best bread and butter casters, best possible build, most reliant on magic etc.

Twisted Ferret
01-03-2012, 21:40
If we look at who has the most powerful magic phase or "does magic the best" with normal casters I'd say Lizardmen.
Properly outfitted Slaan is a loremaster with an extra D6 on each cast +level (4) and miscast-proof etc.

If we look at who has the best caster it's either Fateweaver or Teclis.

If we look at who uses magic most prominently (like it's a necessity, makes sense, and works well) I'd say Vampire Counts.

The oddballs are Dark Elfs and Warriors after that.
Dark Elfs obviously have great sorcerers just not sure where to place them (maybe the best overall casters without being just a single lord or something).
Warriors have huge potential on a single caster lord so that's worth mentioning.
I also feel like Beastmen deserve some mention since they CAN have a powerful magic phase with the use of a shard of the herdstone and many low level casters; just an honorable mention.
Nice - very complete! That's exactly what I was thinking of: most powerful magic phase, best single casters, best wizard special characters, etc.

Do the Dark Elves have sorcerers, btw? I thought male Dark Elf sorcerers were either rare, or totally nonexistent. I think it's the former in the fluff, but is it the latter in the game... or can I be my chauvinistic self and have male casters in my Dark Elf army? :D (I'm always represented in model form by the most powerful caster in my army, you see, so it can't be a female...)


So I don't know how I'd do a top 5 list since it's hard to assess who has the most powerful magic phase (do we look at "overall", best potential caster including special character, without special characters, best bread and butter casters, best possible build, most reliant on magic etc.
I was thinking:

1.) Best overall magic phase: no matter how it's done, whoever can use magic to the best effect in a magic-optimized build.

2.) Best single caster without special characters.

3.) Best single caster with special characters.

Thanks for pointing this out so explicitly; I'll edit my original post. The title may be a bit misleading, since "magic-heavy" could mean armies reliant on magic but not so good at it - not at all what I was thinking!

***

Also: Teclis and Fateweaver really outdo a fully-upgraded Slann mage-priest? I could see that, but are they better casters than Mazdamundi or Lord Kroak? :eek:

vinny t
01-03-2012, 22:35
1) Most Powerful Phase: Probably Dark Elves or Lizardmen. Dark Elves are good because they can throw unlimited dice at getting a spell off which basically garentees an irrisistable force when you most need it. Also they have the Sac Dagger and Power of Darkness which are very reliable ways to get more power dice. Lizardmen are so good because they can generate a lot of dice every turn and have very good magic defense.

2) Single Caster - Slaan. For less than 500 points you get a CC immune character generating 3+ dice a phase. Also they can basically shut down a enemy's phase just by themselves. Either them or a Book of Hoeth Archmage. Being able to force out critical spells is an excellent ability

3) Special Character - Teclis. Generates d3 power and dispel dice, ignores miscasts, and can force out critical spells.

And all of the LIzardmen special characters are just absolute crap. They're basically unusuable in a competetive environment.

The Low King
01-03-2012, 22:56
Do the Dark Elves have sorcerers, btw? I thought male Dark Elf sorcerers were either rare, or totally nonexistent. I think it's the former in the fluff, but is it the latter in the game... or can I be my chauvinistic self and have male casters in my Dark Elf army? :D (I'm always represented in model form by the most powerful caster in my army, you see, so it can't be a female...)


Its fine, they're elves, the entire race counts as female :P


1.) Best overall magic phase: no matter how it's done, whoever can use magic to the best effect in a magic-optimized build.

Dark elves. Insane number of dice and no PD limit.

2.) Best single caster without special characters.

Slan. Fully upgraded he is a beast.

3.) Best single caster with special characters.

Teclis is really really good.

Marauder_chieftan
01-03-2012, 23:09
----->Dwarves.<-----

enygma7
01-03-2012, 23:18
Forgot to add - I'm thinking in terms of possible magical might, here, rather than what a "typical" list might put out. I'd be dumping all my points into wizards and arcane items and the like, even if it's a bit unwise :p, so that might make a difference in the rankings.

The main key to a super powerful magic phase is the ability to generate additional power dice. That gives you increased reliability (even on a bad winds of magic roll you'll still have a decent number of dice and your opponent will have hardly any dispel dice) and a much greater chance at forcing spells through. High Elves, Dark Elves and Lizardmen can all generate additional dice. I'm not familiar with lizardmen but both flavours of elves have multiple ways of generating extra dice - which is when things really get overpowered.

Its also handy to be able to ignore/protect against the affects of miscasts. Chaos warriors (infernal puppet) and lizardmen both spring to mind, also any high level caster with lore of life potentially.

Access to a wide range of lores gives flexibility but also interest - being restricted to only a few lores will quickly get boring. High Elves really shine here as all their mages have access to 9 lores.

Several people have recommended skaven. I play skaven and I'd warn you off them if you are going purely for the magic. Its true they have some very powerful spells and can also generate extra dice after a fashion through warpstone tokens and warpstone energy condenser, but not to the same extent as the big three. Since the latest FAQ you can't use warpstone tokens to go beyond 6 dice and dreaded 13th requires a 25+ to cast, so even with maximum dice its a far from certain prospect. Skaven have access to only 2 lores, and being in the old fashioned 7th mould they contain a lot of situational spells of dubious use with a few excellent spells. As such the magic phase can often feel like just chucking all your dice at 13th, scorch and plague time after time. Basically, skaven magic gets boring pretty fast.

Phazael
02-03-2012, 00:20
Lore of destruction is completely good, from top to bottom. The new power scroll is actually better when used with dreaded 13th. Finally, their wizards are inexpensive enough that you can feasably pack two Grey Seers with solid gear and get two cracks at it a turn. They also have some of the best wizard bunkers in the game, in the form of Slaves and Clanrats. In terms of getting what you pay for, its really hard to beat Skaven.

The main reason I feel the Lizardmen are top in the magic phase is that their is very little rules waste to their Slaan. He is really REALLY point efficient. Further, he also has multiple sources of miscast protection, loremaster, and arguably the best anti magic ability in the game in becalming, which are things all of the other high magic armies (HE aside) lack. His synergy is also incredible, with Lore of Light (and its easily cast AE buffs) which offset literally all of the weaknesses of the army. In the Stegadon Stampede list, the life slaan is pretty ridiculous as well. He also gets access to a fairly nice ItP and Stubborn bunker to camp out in, though it is expensive.

gdsora
02-03-2012, 01:33
No mention of Tomb kings?

+D3 Dice a turn
Monsters that can add another +D3 to every casting value around them
Mighty Scroll?

Level 5 Caster
Caster who can completely re-roll one spell a turn (to avoid miscasts, or failures to cast)
They might not have the best lore, but I find it weird for a magic reliant army no one has mentioned them...

medevilmike
02-03-2012, 01:53
I would personally rate dark elves as number 1, then maybe either herdstone beasts or minimum magic third eye woc. Lizards are complete trash imho and HE's although goodish with book of hoeth are only really good at dispelling.

m1acca1551
02-03-2012, 05:21
Im surprised no one has mentioned Empire battle wizards and wizards lords, whos point costs and access to arcane items both generic and army book coupled with the ability to choose from any of the lores makes them a serious contender.

HE/DE are hard to class due to HE relience on banner of sorcery and book of hoeth to have a decent magic phase. DE magic superiority is due to there synergy with shadow and there reliance on mindrazor, take away mind razor or the ability to spam dice and they have a very average magic phase.

Balerion
02-03-2012, 05:52
Vampires.

They have to have a mage general and if they don't spend their entire magic phase raising troops, they lose.
If the general dies, they lose.
If you roll badly for the winds of magic, they lose.

:)
Has nothing to do with the criteria he established. Read beyond the thread title next time. ;)

MOMUS
02-03-2012, 06:50
How about magic-defense-heavy?

Slann with:
becalming
cupped hands/feedback scroll + banehead
blood spite statuette

Priests with:
D.scroll
Cube of darkness
diadem of power

skirder
02-03-2012, 07:55
Lizards, h/d elves, VC and TK are very magic heavy. that doesn't mean that they all have killer phases every time, but they can all focus quite a bit on magic and it will really hurt.

Lizards - hard to kill mage with loremaster, extra dice per spell (so a lower roll means fewer extra dice), ignore first miscast and throw it, becalming...
downside: costs 20+% of your army and you'll spend another 20+% on a bunker for him. the bunker is strong, but unweildly. Any experienced opponent can deal with it.

HE/DE - i have little experience with them, but i know that they can add tons of dice and force spells through.

TK - 2 decent special character casters, +d3 dice per phase (with a casket) +d3 to casts (with heirotitan)
Downside: Heirophant must take rulebook lore. it's a good lore, but it reduces the flexibility. The strong build (titan and casket) is an extra 300pts from rare. Heirophant is a major target and you can't let him die. You can't be too risky with miscasts and you want to keep him away from combat, which might take him out of spell range from a few REALLY important areas of the battle.

VC - more experience with the previous edition, but i know that they can still take a ton of cheap casters and spam ridiculous rezzing spells and add a lot of dice consistently. if they take a corpse cart, then their rez spell gives them asf if they are near the cart. rerolls to hit, rerolls to wound, low casting values/bubble spells. Their casters are either extremely cheap necromancers, or Vampires, which are able to stand toe to toe with most combat lords, and can be kitted out to cause a potential 18 wounds in 1 round of combat. so you can really keep them safe.
Downside: points. on the vampires, you pay for them to be as tough as they are. the necromancers are cheap, but soft. The spells work best when you limit your mobility by keeping everything close. Not the worst thing, but can be annoying depending on your play style.

warplock
02-03-2012, 10:42
I would personally rate dark elves as number 1, then maybe either herdstone beasts or minimum magic third eye woc. Lizards are complete trash imho and HE's although goodish with book of hoeth are only really good at dispelling.

Lizardmen complete trash? The Slann has access to ANY Lore, comes with a 4+ ward and 5 wounds, and gets Loremaster - all for 275 points! (Assuming you take loremaster as your free discipline) For 50 points more you can get +1 powerdice for EVERY spell. Meaning you can effectively 1-dice a lot of spells, because you're actually throwing 2 dice down. You don't even need to spend tons of points on him - for not much more than anyone else's lvl 4 Mage, you get an absolutely incredible spellcaster. The fact hat he has access to miscast-protection and some amazing disciplines like Becalming are a bonus.
HE only good at dispelling? They have The Banner of Sorcery which gives them +D3 power dice every turn, as well as multiple other ways to get bonus power dice. Their Arcane Items list is phenomenal too. They have Drain Magic which can stop enemies even casting spells in the first place.

medevilmike
02-03-2012, 22:42
The problem I have with lizzy's is a simple one, there mages are to expensive and if they are the bsb(they always are) they auto die to an unlucky breaktest,only mage that does that in the game. As far as casting potential they are probally the most powerful single caster in the game, but you pay an awful lot for it. Sadly the only other casters in the list are stuck with a weak lore overall, drastically reducing casting potential in a lizardman list.

sulla
03-03-2012, 01:00
I've been seriously considering a Vampire Counts army, but it appears that they're more magic-dependent than particularly good at it - does this seem right to everyone else? Of course, I want you to tell me that fielding a necromancer-heavy force would dominate in the magic phase, because I absolutely love necromancers. I also loathe vampires, though, so if it's still got that "must have a vampire general" (VC did have that at one time, right?) that puts a damper on my enthusiasm. Although the Necrarch is pretty cool, come to think of it. Other than eye-opening amounts of zombies raised, magic in the VC list is a pale shadow of what it was in the last book from my games against them.



I'd also like to hear the general consensus on the WoC magic phase; is it "rightly feared", as sulla contends, or do they just lack the power dice that, say, a HE or Lizardmen army could field? Or both, perhaps?

Just a note on the WoC as I described them earlier; although they are a powerful magical threat, playing the same 2 spells and maybe one other every turn makes them a hugely boring list. I would probably eliminate them for that reason. Similarly with DE, they can be powerful because their current rules pretty much break the magic phase balance in many ways, but they too are boring because they rely so heavily on shadow magic.

Beastmen can generate a heap of dice but suffer from having limited ranged damage output. If only they had access to the lore of fire, they would be a much more complete army.

I'd look at High Elves, Lizards and Empire if you want an army based around magic and slinging lots of spells. All those armies can take any of the main rulebook lores on at least their sorceror lord. They are not neccessarily the most powerful spellcasting armies (although all are solid-good), but at least you won't get bored with their magic as you can change their lores from week to week. And if you're happy with special characters, Teclis is all kinds of evil. Bringing him or Kairos (daemons) is almost like tying your opponent's hand between his back... or at least I feel like I don't have to work too hard when I take either of them.

Mister Blak
03-03-2012, 15:22
The problem I have with lizzy's is a simple one, there mages are to expensive and if they are the bsb(they always are) they auto die to an unlucky breaktest,only mage that does that in the game. As far as casting potential they are probally the most powerful single caster in the game, but you pay an awful lot for it. Sadly the only other casters in the list are stuck with a weak lore overall, drastically reducing casting potential in a lizardman list.

I have a stock response to the whole 'slann BSB' problem.

"if your LD10, cold-blooded, general-containing, BSB holding temple guard bunker is breaking in combat, then you are an absolute idiot."

Sometimes I mix in some expletives, to keep things fresh ya know?

:)

medevilmike
03-03-2012, 16:12
Lol, ld 10 coldblood fails like 1 in a million, I understand that well enough. However it does happen.Even with NEVER breaking lizzys magic phase is still weak in comparison to half the armies out there.tooled up slaan(4 disc. +bsb) is 400pts before magic items,yeah....great caster, more or less unbreakable in temple guard unit, stuck with 1 lore+ maybe a back up priest with a scroll.

This isnt even mentioning that most lizzy players take light/life which are both strong lores with weak damage output.

Is the slaan a powerful mage? absolutly. Is lizardmen a contender for best magic? No

I realize it sounds like I am trolling, but I honestly feel lizzys are drastically overrated in the magic department.

Mister Blak
03-03-2012, 16:28
Lol, ld 10 coldblood fails like 1 in a million, I understand that well enough. However it does happen.Even with NEVER breaking lizzys magic phase is still weak in comparison to half the armies out there.tooled up slaan(4 disc. +bsb) is 400pts before magic items,yeah....great caster, more or less unbreakable in temple guard unit, stuck with 1 lore+ maybe a back up priest with a scroll.

This isnt even mentioning that most lizzy players take light/life which are both strong lores with weak damage output.

Is the slaan a powerful mage? absolutly. Is lizardmen a contender for best magic? No

I realize it sounds like I am trolling, but I honestly feel lizzys are drastically overrated in the magic department.


I have always felt that lizzies were the most balanced of the obvious magic-heavies, with DE being more offensive with INFINITEH POWERS, and HE being more defensive with drain magic etc. I see your POV on the slann, but I have to disagree.



Also, I will happily take my chances with that 1\1000000 Ld, ta very much. :)

-Totenkopf-
03-03-2012, 16:42
I don't know how tomb kings haven't made this list.. Taking all those criteria, Arkhan the black, lvl 5 death wizard and saves dispel dice for power dice, and load up on lower level nehek and light magic casters, the item to gain your level in free power dice, casket of souls - free power dice, and heirotitan +d3 to cast.. This puts arkhan with 5 death spells and a minimum +6 to his casting value.. shems burning gaze up the ying yang, purple suns, speed of light, time warp etc.. not to mention raising the army back up.. by the time arkhan has sniped at all of your characters and burnt all of your DD, i still have 8 dice left to do what I want.. Overall effectiveness? A++

The Low King
03-03-2012, 16:52
I don't know how tomb king haven't made this list.. Taking all those criteria, Arkhan the black, lvl 5 death wizard and saves dispel dice for power dice, and load up on lower level nehek and light magic casters, the item to gain your level in free power dice, casket of souls - free power dice, and heirotitan +d3 to cast.. This puts arkhan with 5 death spells and a minimum +6 to his casting value.. shems burning gaze up the ying yang, purple suns, speed of light, time warp etc.. not to mention raising the army back up.. by the time arkhan has sniped at all of your characters and burnt all of your DD, i still have 8 dice left to do what I want.. Overall effectiveness? A++

How much does that cost in points? Special character, 2+ level 2s, more than one Casket, Titan, magic items.....thats what? 1000+ points?
Plus you are screwed in your opponts magic phase becasue you are saving dispell dice.
Great power....but not efficient.


Lol, ld 10 coldblood fails like 1 in a million, I understand that well enough. However it does happen.Even with NEVER breaking lizzys magic phase is still weak in comparison to half the armies out there.tooled up slaan(4 disc. +bsb) is 400pts before magic items,yeah....great caster, more or less unbreakable in temple guard unit, stuck with 1 lore+ maybe a back up priest with a scroll.

This isnt even mentioning that most lizzy players take light/life which are both strong lores with weak damage output.

Is the slaan a powerful mage? absolutly. Is lizardmen a contender for best magic? No

I realize it sounds like I am trolling, but I honestly feel lizzys are drastically overrated in the magic department.

But Disciplins give you what most people pay for in magic items....and the ability to be both general and BSB is priceless

400 points of slan can do more than 2 level 4s in a lot of armies.....and try taking two slan...

-Totenkopf-
03-03-2012, 21:01
Thats 600 pts for characters, which is low for a TK list, casket is 125 and pretty much a must have for our list and the hiero is a S6,T6 monster with two bound spells and adds to the casting value for 175. Not a bad body guard for a Heirophant..
Saving dispel dice is not really that hard.. one IF miscast and voila, I have a lot of unused dice. Even if you save none, Death magic is adding more to your pool with each wound caused...
Replace Arkhan with a lvl 4 and the cost for characters is 490 pts and a magic phase I wouldn't want to face