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thrawn
02-03-2012, 01:00
so i have been looking at the new tyranids and i just have to say how amazing!!

what's incredible is that the plastics are just getting bigger and bigger, more detail, and yet (and i say this loosely) reasonably priced. think about this. the last tyranid release featured the carnifex, and that was such a big deal, as it was the biggest plastic model GW ever made. now the trivgon dwafs it, and is almost the same price!

soooooooooooooo, what is this leading up to?

is it possible we might actually see HE dragon princes riding dragons? now before people get mad and say stop wish listing, this is not wish listing. it is a reasonable conclusion. every HE player (and i think that's a fair assumption) would love to field one of those old armies from the book, where caledor and aenarion and they're wing of dragons has to fight ridiculous odds and fight back chaos. before that would have been impossible, you would have had to buy super expensive metal dragons, and your army would weigh a ton.

BUT NOW it's possible!!!! they can make dragons, they can all look different (i.e. think vampire counts dragon/terrorghiest) and yet somewhat within someones price range! this would be a great thing for GW as well as i can't imagine any HE player not buying for himself a wing of dragons.

the only question is of course can this be done fairly in game terms? obviously people are going to scream bloody murder, i mean i can hear it now.

however, again, i think this is not impossible. let's take a look at all of the new books. you can now feild monsters in every army (i have a seperate rant regarding this, but i won't bring that up here). with that trend continuing it's safe to assume all armies will be getting monsters (they haven't released an army book without monsters). so, if HE get monsters, why not dragons? and if they're getting dragons, why not dragon princes?

there will have to be restrictions so people don't take advantage of it, like the only way you can feild them is if you take a lord riding an emporer dragon. dragon princes can have one profile (like all modern monsters in the new books) so something along these lines:

M.6 WS.5 BS.4 S.5 T.5 W.4 I.6 A.4 LD.9

Rules: Monster, Fly, Fear, 3+ Armour Save, Strength 2 Breath Weapon, ASF, Dragon Armour, Lance (+2 strength on the charge)

Points????? I'm thinking around 235.

so this is my thread, tell me what you all think!!!

Drongol
02-03-2012, 01:35
And this is why I don't play against homebrew armies.

Something like this would make for a worse game than the old Tzeentch flying circus lists. Kill a unit and then spend the rest of the game flitting around like little birdies avoiding combat. Exciting stuff.

Let's not forget that your dragons are about 100 points too cheap.

Lord Dan
02-03-2012, 02:49
Wouldn't that be kind of boring to play? It reminds me of the old Bretonnian RAF list, though with considerably fewer units.

Trains_Get_Robbed
02-03-2012, 08:15
And this is why I don't play against homebrew armies.

Something like this would make for a worse game than the old Tzeentch flying circus lists. Kill a unit and then spend the rest of the game flitting around like little birdies avoiding combat. Exciting stuff.

Let's not forget that your dragons are about 100 points too cheap.

Really? Fly, T5 and 4W, and no character on top is enough to warrant more than 250ish points?

Obviously you understand the metagame. If HPAs, Stonehorns, Hydras, Spynixes and Terroghiests are price what they're at. . . and you would want to raise the price by a hundred? Its a creative unit that has been thought of (most likey) hundreds of thousands of times before, however let the O.P keep their thunder.

Dragon Princs ridign actual dragons would allow H.E players to have something else that is viable to take in the rare allotment, and gives them much needed monstrous support.

warplock
02-03-2012, 09:52
I think if something like this were implemented, it would have to be a contingent of dragon riders riding 'young dragons', keeping them around 100-150 points each, They could still have awesome stats at those points. Maybe a 'precarious take-off' rule could prevent them running rings around enemy armies whilst still giving them a lot of the mobility enjoyed by fliers. What would be awesome is if each unit could be customised to be a different sort of dragon - like Ogre Maneaters - you could choose a couple of special rules or abilities like ASF, tail attack, poison, improved save etc.

lbecks
02-03-2012, 10:14
I'd imagine GW would make a 2nd unique big kit for the High Elves before they made another dragon but with a different rider. And if it was a dragon it would be a bigger dragon. But there does seem to be a desire for something like drake riders. Which GW could potentially do as monstrous cavalry.

cptcosmic
02-03-2012, 11:22
dragons are pretty rare in the current lore arent they? I doubt you will see dragon riders as unit or anything compareable. the best HE might get in a new book is some kind of lesser dragon as a rare choice but I doubt that. what I would like to see are better silver helm models, I dont like the horses.

Drongol
02-03-2012, 11:51
Really? Fly, T5 and 4W, and no character on top is enough to warrant more than 250ish points?

Obviously you understand the metagame. If HPAs, Stonehorns, Hydras, Spynixes and Terroghiests are price what they're at. . . and you would want to raise the price by a hundred? Its a creative unit that has been thought of (most likey) hundreds of thousands of times before, however let the O.P keep their thunder.

Dragon Princs ridign actual dragons would allow H.E players to have something else that is viable to take in the rare allotment, and gives them much needed monstrous support.

Absolutely, I would raise the price of a flying monster with an (admittedly weak) breath weapon to 335+ points as compared to Stonehorns, Sphinxes, and Terrorgheists. HPAs and Hydras are leftovers from 7th Edition and not quite the same.

This would mean that the army with arguably the best redirecting units in 50 point flying Eagles would also have multiple dragonettes to take out any exposed units. End result: High Elves playing like Flying Circus, never getting into combat unless it's on their terms, that sort of thing.

That makes for a very frustrating game, and 235 points isn't exactly enough to make that "fair."

DareX2
02-03-2012, 12:49
I could see the "Return of the Dragon Princes" as a special friendly scenario. In no way does it make sense to introduce Dragon Princes riding dragons; not from a fluff perspective, and not from the perspective of the game's design philosophy. While monsters are the focus of this edition, there are no units of monsters rolling around. Should there ever be a Fantasy equivalent to Apocalypse, then perhaps it would be worth investigating. As it stands, units of dragon riding Dragon Princes strikes me as crossing the line from "fun" to "over the top."

Morkash
02-03-2012, 13:55
Such a unit would be incredibly hard to balance.

You can only go bigger to a certain extend, and I think that the 100x150 Monster base is the biggest base we will see for Fantasy. It is already enourmous if you compare it to Joe One-shoe, your good old State Trooper.
In the same breath I think we will not see bigger cavalry, Mournfangs and Necropolis Knights are incredibly hitty, yet not THAT resilient compared to their high cost. A unit of Dragon Princes on Dragon, even young Dragons, would be versatile, resilient and still hit at least as hard as mournfangs (or even Grimhorn Rhinox Cav.) without having real downsides except being expensive. And even that can be an advantage as the posters above me already mentioned.
Not to mention that Dragons are supposed to be relatively rare in the current Warhammer world. Having units of them would be incompatible, though this may very well be my weakest argument...

tl;dr: I can neither imagine it model-wise, rules-wise nor fluff-wise.

Omnichron
02-03-2012, 14:02
I wouldn't have liked dragons to be common in games. Not at all. I would like them to be rarities, something that costs alot and do alot in games. I want something that can protect them from the cannonshots to some extent, yet not so hard to take down that armies would struggle too much with it.

As for the monstrous stuff getting into all the armies. I really do hope that there's not as many who gets it, as it makes those who do have monsters to be less unique. For instance, being a dark elf player, the beastmasters has been something in the fluff and for the army for some time. I would love to see the choice getting more options instead of the hydra (Which should be more expensive and not have hatred btw). But what would make it special if everyone else can field such things?

I do believe that there'll be more army specific choices that has some beasts or monstrous infantry, but dragons? I really hope not. Maybe a unit of actual lions would come around, and not just be on the chariot. Other than that, I don't think HE need more dragon choices, nor the DE.

thrawn
02-03-2012, 14:19
Absolutely, I would raise the price of a flying monster with an (admittedly weak) breath weapon to 335+ points as compared to Stonehorns, Sphinxes, and Terrorgheists. HPAs and Hydras are leftovers from 7th Edition and not quite the same.

This would mean that the army with arguably the best redirecting units in 50 point flying Eagles would also have multiple dragonettes to take out any exposed units. End result: High Elves playing like Flying Circus, never getting into combat unless it's on their terms, that sort of thing.

That makes for a very frustrating game, and 235 points isn't exactly enough to make that "fair."

Wow, ya HE are the only guys with cheap redirects? Ya, not WE with great eagles, not DE with harpies, not Ogres with sabre tusks, not Orcs with the single troll, not Khemri with carrion, not VC with giant bats/wolves/spirit hosts, should i keep going? I'm wondering who you're playing against.

I knew i was going to get people who would scream cheese, so that's fine. i don't understand though how you can have a conversation with someone, let's say an ogres player, who just got the one of the best monstrous cavalry introduced into they're army, but then as soon as another army is going to get some monstrous cavalry it's the end of the world. i have never complained or said bow to anyone when their army gets something that i would have loved for mine. a perfect example is the HPA. the idea for skaven is a hoard army, so why do they get a monster? but that's ok, i never started saying that's so cheesy, just started changing my army so that when i went up against one i had the tools to deal with it.

@cptcosmic
"dragons are pretty rare in the current lore arent they? I doubt you will see dragon riders as unit or anything compareable. the best HE might get in a new book is some kind of lesser dragon as a rare choice but I doubt that. what I would like to see are better silver helm models, I dont like the horses."

i agree that dragon riders is a bit over the top, so drake riders i think would be more fitting. it is not out of the current story line as it has been continuosly mentioned that the HE dragons are waking up, so drake riders, much weaker dragons, would seem fitting.

also, currently i play WE, and it frustrates me to no end when i hear comments like this (again @Drongol):

"End result: High Elves playing like Flying Circus, never getting into combat unless it's on their terms, that sort of thing."

so let me get this straight, you want me to charge your hoard of what? Chaos Warriors? Dwarf Warriors with double handed weapons? Ogres? Savage Orcs? Ya, because that's a really fun game when my archers get killed to a man with out even inflicting a single wound back. that's a really fun game for me too. i guess you don't play a lot of games, as the newbie players just stack a couple of hoards with buffs, and then cry when you don't charge them. the whole game is about getting into combat on your terms, not your opponents. no one likes to play against me cause currently my WE army is all my characters on great eagles, war hawk riders, fast cav and some archers. people get mad cause they say it's not fun, but then like i said, how fun is it for me to charge WE archers into your hoard? why should i play the game on your terms when i can play on mine?

Hrogoff the Destructor
02-03-2012, 14:23
I'm not totally against it, and if done right would be totally for it. The problem as many have said would be balancing it.

If it were up to me I would make them independant from the current Dragon Princes, and have them be a rare choice. They would be single models and not units.

Then I would take Thrawn's statline and maybe drop the dragons to str. 4 to make the lances worthwhile. Make them fly 16-18 inches as opposed to 20 and maybe an 0-1 and 0-2 cap to prevent spam. They would only get a stomp attack and not a thunder stomp.

Pricing would be a little tricky...

thrawn
02-03-2012, 14:28
I'm not totally against it, and if done right would be totally for it. The problem as many have said would be balancing it.

If it were up to me I would make them independant from the current Dragon Princes, and have them be a rare choice. They would be single models and not units.

Then I would take Thrawn's statline and maybe drop the dragons to str. 4 to make the lances worthwhile. Make them fly 16-18 inches as opposed to 20 and maybe an 0-1 and 0-2 cap to prevent spam. They would only get a stomp attack and not a thunder stomp.

Pricing would be a little tricky...

Exactly Hrogoff! the whole point of this thread was not wishlisting, but just pointing out that what was impossible before (feilding a unit of dragons) is now possible with the new plastics GW can make!

yes it would be tricky to price out correctly, but if done i see huge sales for GW (which HE player would not buy them?).

DareX2
02-03-2012, 15:51
Exactly Hrogoff! the whole point of this thread was not wishlisting, but just pointing out that what was impossible before (feilding a unit of dragons) is now possible with the new plastics GW can make!

yes it would be tricky to price out correctly, but if done i see huge sales for GW (which HE player would not buy them?).

Why would it have been impossible before? What makes it possible now? Are you saying it was impossible because it was beyond the scope of the rules/fluff? Or was it impossible because the cost of production to make metal minis was too high? Or it was impossible because GW wouldn't make a worthwhile return on selling big units of monsters?

I don't think it was ever impossible. I think it simply wasn't in the scope of the design philosophy. As for the dragon riders leading to huge sales, I would disagree. It would be costly to field in game (assuming the 235 points per rider), so players wouldn't buy too many. The kit would be costly as well, since you're buying multiple monsters. If anything, I would think that it would be similar to most other monster kits: players will buy one, maybe two, and then no more ever again. Compare this to staple core units or popular special units, where a person needs to buy multiple instances of a kit to acquire the unit size/number of units they'd need to field a useable, competitive unit.

I get the appeal for a formation of dragon riders, but it's more of a Warmaster scale unit.

quietus1986
02-03-2012, 16:08
Don't know about the points but make it a rare chose and 1-3 dragon riders per unit. And make sure they are weaker dragons. ( I would get one to use as a young dragon in storm of magic)

Drongol
02-03-2012, 16:23
Wow, ya HE are the only guys with cheap redirects? Ya, not WE with great eagles, not DE with harpies, not Ogres with sabre tusks, not Orcs with the single troll, not Khemri with carrion, not VC with giant bats/wolves/spirit hosts, should i keep going? I'm wondering who you're playing against.

Wood Elves can take what, two great eagles? Harpies are decent, I fully admit, sabertusks cannot fly, trolls are M6 and stupid, giant bats can't fly 20" unless they are within 12" of the general and cannot pivot on the spot, wolves and spirit hosts cannot fly (and again, the wolves cannot pivot on the spot), etc.

As I was saying, HE's great eagles are arguably the best redirector unit in the game.


I knew i was going to get people who would scream cheese, so that's fine. i don't understand though how you can have a conversation with someone, let's say an ogres player, who just got the one of the best monstrous cavalry introduced into they're army, but then as soon as another army is going to get some monstrous cavalry it's the end of the world. i have never complained or said bow to anyone when their army gets something that i would have loved for mine. a perfect example is the HPA. the idea for skaven is a hoard army, so why do they get a monster? but that's ok, i never started saying that's so cheesy, just started changing my army so that when i went up against one i had the tools to deal with it.

Big difference: you are not (to my knowledge, anyway) a GW game designer and as such, your ideas are nothing more than the wishlisting of a fan.


also, currently i play WE, and it frustrates me to no end when i hear comments like this (again @Drongol):

"End result: High Elves playing like Flying Circus, never getting into combat unless it's on their terms, that sort of thing."

so let me get this straight, you want me to charge your hoard of what? Chaos Warriors? Dwarf Warriors with double handed weapons? Ogres? Savage Orcs? Ya, because that's a really fun game when my archers get killed to a man with out even inflicting a single wound back. that's a really fun game for me too. i guess you don't play a lot of games, as the newbie players just stack a couple of hoards with buffs, and then cry when you don't charge them. the whole game is about getting into combat on your terms, not your opponents. no one likes to play against me cause currently my WE army is all my characters on great eagles, war hawk riders, fast cav and some archers. people get mad cause they say it's not fun, but then like i said, how fun is it for me to charge WE archers into your hoard? why should i play the game on your terms when i can play on mine?

There is a very big difference between pushing two hordes at eachother and being annoyed with the flying circus avoidance armies that, frankly, do not and cannot play WHFB. Wood Elves at the height of their game. Lizardmen back in 6th Edition. Tzeentch flying circus. All of these were playing a very different game than the rest of the races, and it wasn't exactly a good time for the game.

Assuming they were a rare choice, a unit of flying hard-as-nails monstrous cavalry would make a mockery of any and all support units and be practically invincible. With your wishlisted stats, they would be capable of vast destruction for very little risk.

Let's also point out, briefly here, that the statline you have given them is somewhat on the strange side. If they are meant to be monstrous cavalry, they would need stats for the rider as well, and the gear would not be directly affecting the strength of the dragon's attacks. But, when combined with ASF, a breath weapon (even a weak one), and especially flying, the entire concept is over the top.

kenotic
02-03-2012, 16:40
Absolutely, I would raise the price of a flying monster with an (admittedly weak) breath weapon to 335+ points as compared to Stonehorns, Sphinxes, and Terrorgheists. HPAs and Hydras are leftovers from 7th Edition and not quite the same.

That's WAY TOO undercosted! I would raise it to 435+ as lion chariot for 140 with only T4 and can't even march!
And the next HE book should change all of their dragons to no more than T5 and RBT to T6:evilgrin:

theJ
02-03-2012, 16:40
Can't really see myself using a unit of dragon-riders. Not only would I be putting a stupid amount of points into a single unit(which still goes down in seconds to cannons or pits), but I also find it cheapens the dragons themselves to have more than... as an absolute maximum 2 in a single army.

I'd be far happier with a unit of Griffon-riders or a single, unridden dragon for my new rare choice... or possibly a Phoenix... or a Merwyrm... or some fancy wagon... so many cool things that would feel a lot better to field.

DareX2
02-03-2012, 16:50
I'd be far happier with a unit of Griffon-riders or a single, unridden dragon for my new rare choice

I agree. Having the option to take griffons as rare choice, exactly as they are found in the Storm of Magic book would be a fun, interesting choice. Also more viable: in play, in fluff, and financially so, than a unit of dragon riders.

thrawn
02-03-2012, 19:04
Why would it have been impossible before? What makes it possible now? Are you saying it was impossible because it was beyond the scope of the rules/fluff? Or was it impossible because the cost of production to make metal minis was too high? Or it was impossible because GW wouldn't make a worthwhile return on selling big units of monsters?

I don't think it was ever impossible. I think it simply wasn't in the scope of the design philosophy. As for the dragon riders leading to huge sales, I would disagree. It would be costly to field in game (assuming the 235 points per rider), so players wouldn't buy too many. The kit would be costly as well, since you're buying multiple monsters. If anything, I would think that it would be similar to most other monster kits: players will buy one, maybe two, and then no more ever again. Compare this to staple core units or popular special units, where a person needs to buy multiple instances of a kit to acquire the unit size/number of units they'd need to field a useable, competitive unit.

I get the appeal for a formation of dragon riders, but it's more of a Warmaster scale unit.

my OP is about how GW is making bigger plastics, better and cheaper then they ever could have before. please read first post.

@ Drongol:

you do have valid points, and i can see why someone will get frustrated playing against a unit of HE dragons, but i was just saying it would not be more frustrating then playing against my current WE.

My overall point is it's do-able, and i think what was holding GW back before was the cost restrictions. they keep talking about how technology is getting better and then can make more detailed plastics, faster and cheaper then ever before. this is evident with all their new amazing plastic kits being released (new tyranid Trivgon is perfect example, as i said before, when they came out with the current carnifex it was the Bees-knees, now it's dwarved by the new models).

this i snot wish listing, as the HE are all about how they ruled the world because of they're dragons, that then fell asleep, it's not that far fetched to say they're starting to wake up and now you can field a unit of them?

but ofcourse the balance would be crucial to avoid spamming.

thrawn
02-03-2012, 19:08
<delete>

ooops, sorry double posted.

thrawn
02-03-2012, 19:10
@ kenotic

435+?? uhhh, you do realize what a terrorgheist costs right?

for 435 points i can take a lord on a sun dragon now, and that has WAY better stats. i think you should re-think your point cost system, what ever it is.

BigbyWolf
02-03-2012, 19:36
you would have had to buy super expensive metal dragons, and your army would weigh a ton.

Even taking inflation into account, the metal dragons were the same price as the plastic ones.


BUT NOW it's possible!!!! they can make dragons, they can all look different (i.e. think vampire counts dragon/terrorghiest) and yet somewhat within someones price range! this would be a great thing for GW as well as i can't imagine any HE player not buying for himself a wing of dragons.

I've seen a few Terrorghiests, and they all look pretty similar to me.

But those two points aside, it's a nice idea. I can't see it being a "wing", as I can see a max of 3 per army in general (Same as VC Terrorwing). On the other hand, the 2K High Elf army I'm working on has two already, and they take up a lot of points. If I was to put another in there I would have practically nothing else in the army. Frankly I think HEs are too elite to be throwing extra big gribblies in there.

Now, offer me Drake-mounted Monstrous Cavalry Dragon Princes, and I'll take your hand off.