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View Full Version : Empire, what will you miss!



RanaldLoec
04-03-2012, 00:33
With a new book imminent with lots of new dazzling shiney shiney new stuff, take a moment to think what we might lose and why will you miss it.

For me I will miss certain magic items, out of the old books I think the empire had the biggest range of useful and well thought out items. Not just the VHS or AoMI but also:

The rod of power, aldreds casket of sorcery, laurels of victory, the dawn armour, the sword of fate and many other cool and funky items.

I will not miss the imperial banner!

DivineVisitor
04-03-2012, 04:29
With a new book imminent with lots of new dazzling shiney shiney new stuff, take a moment to think what we might lose and why will you miss it.

For me I will miss certain magic items, out of the old books I think the empire had the biggest range of useful and well thought out items. Not just the VHS or AoMI but also:

The rod of power, aldreds casket of sorcery, laurels of victory, the dawn armour, the sword of fate and many other cool and funky items.

I will not miss the imperial banner!

Depending on what is done to it il miss the large blast mortar.
My 1+ save battle standerd on foot (il probably be forced to mount him for now on) other ther than that i'd say the items too, used plenty: Mace of Helstrum, Sword of Fate, AoMI, Dawn Armour, VHS, Aldreds Casket, Seal of Magnus, Rod of Power, Seal of Destruction, Crystal Ball. All great items.

Hrogoff the Destructor
04-03-2012, 05:31
I just hope they don't get rid of pigeon bombs or the mechanical horse.

The horse is so silly I take it all the time.

Von Wibble
04-03-2012, 12:00
With a new book imminent with lots of new dazzling shiney shiney new stuff, take a moment to think what we might lose and why will you miss it.

For me I will miss certain magic items, out of the old books I think the empire had the biggest range of useful and well thought out items. Not just the VHS or AoMI but also:

The rod of power, aldreds casket of sorcery, laurels of victory, the dawn armour, the sword of fate and many other cool and funky items.

I will not miss the imperial banner!

I'd be very surprised if some of those items weren't in the book anyway (including imperial banner, with rules changed of course!) Laurels of victory, VHS, and ALdred's casket are all too interesting to lose imo. AoMI otoh is a pure exploit snice you get this item in the brb for less effect and more cost so this imo should go.

I hope the mortar doesn't lose large blast but loses AP instead (and maybe goes up in points slightly). Currently its too good.

I think I will however miss bonus dispel dice. Having +2 or 3 of these (with priest and lector or maybe rod of power) is a little too good so I can't see it staying. Hopeully better prayer effects to make up for it.

Askari
04-03-2012, 12:22
Bonus Dispel dice, the Rod of Power, and a smaller Mortar blast template.

Van Horstmann's Speculum is one of the magic item greats, as well as of course the Runefang, expensive though it is currently.

vinush
04-03-2012, 13:23
I hope they don't remove the flagellants as core with a WP/AL. It's one of the few things that make for an army of rabid god-bothering lunatics. I love the idea of 3 units of flagellants in an Empire army...

THE \/ince

T10
04-03-2012, 18:17
I will miss the Imperial Banner, though I would expect new rules. Perhaps an 18" range for the BSB's Hold Your Ground rule?

sulla
04-03-2012, 23:03
I'd be very surprised if some of those items weren't in the book anyway (including imperial banner, with rules changed of course!) Laurels of victory, VHS, and ALdred's casket are all too interesting to lose imo. AoMI otoh is a pure exploit snice you get this item in the brb for less effect and more cost so this imo should go. Perhaps the armour might stay because the armour of silvered steel is priced for it's use on a t5 fighter? Who knows how GW think?


I hope the mortar doesn't lose large blast but loses AP instead (and maybe goes up in points slightly). Currently its too good.
.If you look at the standard stone thrower as a troop killer, vs t3 5+ save, it does about 6 kills on a direct hit and costs about 100pts. The mortar would need to cost at least that even if it lost AP and probably a bit more if it kept it. Not sure whether Empire players would buy it then or if another solution is needed.

DivineVisitor
04-03-2012, 23:11
I will miss the Imperial Banner, though I would expect new rules. Perhaps an 18" range for the BSB's Hold Your Ground rule?

Fingers crossed :D

Lord Dan
04-03-2012, 23:19
As the current rumors don't specify much about we're not getting in the next book, the only thing we can be sure of is that we're losing magic items. Regrettably, these are likely to be the fun items mentioned in the original post. Some of my favorites:

Sword of Fate
Crystal Ball
Casket of Sorcery

Hopefully we'll keep the Speculum and the Armor of Meteoric Iron, though I'm particularly dubious about the latter.

Balerion
05-03-2012, 04:54
I'm far from an expert on the Empire magic items list, but doesn't the Crystal Ball stand a decent chance of being kept around, since it's a common, well-loved fantasy trope that wouldn't fit in any other army, and also conveniently appears in WYSIWYG form on the Empire Battle Wizard kit?

Scythe
05-03-2012, 07:25
If you look at the standard stone thrower as a troop killer, vs t3 5+ save, it does about 6 kills on a direct hit and costs about 100pts. The mortar would need to cost at least that even if it lost AP and probably a bit more if it kept it. Not sure whether Empire players would buy it then or if another solution is needed.

The stone thrower however doubles up nicely as a monster killer with its center hole hit. The mortar isn't hardly as effective in that role.

Harwammer
05-03-2012, 09:24
Dirt cheap arch lectors on foot. It was fun while it lasted :p

Gazak Blacktoof
05-03-2012, 10:58
The stone thrower however doubles up nicely as a monster killer with its center hole hit. The mortar isn't hardly as effective in that role.

Though that's hardly necessary in an army with cannons...

I'm not sure there's a great deal I'll miss because I've only started using empire recently. What I'm hoping they get rid of are some of the abusive bits and pieces. The additional dispel dice generation and mortar feel excessive under the current rules, so I feel the urge to self limit or house rule things out when using them.

I hope that the detachment system stays in one form or another, it is still useful under the current rules, though not what it once was.

Leogun_91
05-03-2012, 11:04
I don't expect that much to disappear and will probably not miss much from the rule changes.

If the griffon standard disappears it will be missed, I bought the specific model for a bsb using it because I like it and it's an ace model, won't be the same with another flag.

Scythe
05-03-2012, 11:39
Though that's hardly necessary in an army with cannons...


True enough. But it is something to keep in mind when repricing mortars (cannons aren't free, after all).

laribold
05-03-2012, 11:52
I have to say that if VHS is going to stay, which I think it should, it needs a points increase or a rules power decrease.

For what it does at its current points cost it just seems too powerful. Swapping WS, S, T, and A is a big swing for the low points in my opinion.

Either that or it moves to become a Talisman (which now I think about it, it kind of feels like) making the choice between the VHS and a ward save an interesting and difficult one.

DaemonReign
05-03-2012, 12:36
I have the perspective of 'opponant' since Empire is an army I play against alot.

- I'd miss the current Stank if they change it too much. I wouldn't mind (rather indifferent) detailed changes of its mechanics but it's utility as a 10W T10 roadblocker should remain as far as I am concerned.
- I'd also miss the current Mortar if it gets nerfed like people at large seem to expect. Empire should have good artillery in my opinion, it's the dispel dice of the Priests that needs to go (that's Dwarf territory!).
- If they add ANYTHING 'monstrous' (i.e. Monstrous Infantry (aside of Ogre Swords for Hire), Monstrous Cavalry, whatever) I probably won't like it one bit. Those rumoured Demi-Gryphs is something I have my doubts about, and I know for a fact the Empire player in our group flat out hates them already.

Askari
05-03-2012, 13:35
I have to say that if VHS is going to stay, which I think it should, it needs a points increase or a rules power decrease.

For what it does at its current points cost it just seems too powerful. Swapping WS, S, T, and A is a big swing for the low points in my opinion.

Either that or it moves to become a Talisman (which now I think about it, it kind of feels like) making the choice between the VHS and a ward save an interesting and difficult one.

The VHS really isn't that powerful. For starters, you need to be in a challenge - and swapping stats with a unit Champion is hardly efficient. Second, you can't pick and choose which stats to switch, so I could gain an Elf's Initiative 8, but I also get his Toughness 3 as well.

DaemonReign
05-03-2012, 13:42
I'd miss the Speculum too if it gets removed. It's a cool item as it makes you 'tip-toe' around those weak Empire Characters that you could easily kill if you could just be sure which one of the damn buggers has got that Speculum thing.
A really fun item that I wouldn't want to rob Empire players of using. Here's to hoping it gets to stay!

blackcherry
05-03-2012, 14:19
Aye. I would miss VHS if it went. Swapping the stats of a wizard with that of a bloodthirster is great fun and I play against empire. I have learnt to fear the pointy hatted ones!

IcedCrow
05-03-2012, 14:27
The only thing I'm hoping for is the steam tank to be correctly priced. It is too cheap for what it can do right now imo.

Lord Dan
05-03-2012, 15:25
The only thing I'm hoping for is the steam tank to be correctly priced. It is too cheap for what it can do right now imo.
It's actually already quite expensive. Given that it has a high chance of hurting itself once you reduce it by about 2 or 3 wounds, and everything can wound it on a 6, they're really more manageable than most people think.

IcedCrow
05-03-2012, 15:27
It's actually already quite expensive. Given that it has a high chance of hurting itself once you reduce it by about 2 or 3 wounds, and everything can wound it on a 6, they're really more manageable than most people think.

We'll agree to disagree. If it was considered quite expensive, it wouldn't be taken so much. It's taken so much because many players consider it a bargain for what it can do and how little it costs in comparison to what it can do. Some even field two of the buggers.

Lord Dan
05-03-2012, 15:35
We'll agree to disagree. If it was considered quite expensive, it wouldn't be taken so much. It's taken so much because many players consider it a bargain for what it can do and how little it costs in comparison to what it can do. Some even field two of the buggers.

Fair enough, though with infantry becoming so powerful and war machines generally being reduced in price I truthfully don't see it as much in 8th as I did in 7th. I'm not sure if others have noticed something similar.

IcedCrow
05-03-2012, 15:44
I guess it depends on meta etc... in my local area the steam tank is alive and well. It is not a game-winner by itself but the carnage it can cause for its cost tends to lend itself to being used quite a bit (here at least). I don't think it needs a drastic points cost but I'd like to see it come up about 50 points or so.

DaemonReign
05-03-2012, 16:59
I don't think it needs a drastic points cost but I'd like to see it come up about 50 points or so.

Wow you think it's that good?
My buddy has two of them but I've never seen them do anything spectacular. It seems to me all you need to do is to focus on it with some determination until you manage to knock it down a few wounds and after that it's just gonna sit there and look pretty.
Saying that 'everyone can wound it on a 6' is making things sound easier than they are, admittedly.. But hell, I've seen Goblin Bolt Throwers make it come to a "full stop" on numerous occassions.. It takes a few tries of course.. That's 300 points that's just sitting there looking stupid.

My Empire buddy hardly ever fields the thing anymore. Especially not against my Daemons because they honestly just relish the opportunity.

But I like that Stank. That's all I'm saying. Just surpriced to see you saying it should cost 50pts more. :)

Lord Dan
05-03-2012, 18:39
Saying that 'everyone can wound it on a 6' is making things sound easier than they are, admittedly..
True, but it's important to recognize that a volley of gnoblar sharp stuff can now wound it when last edition they could not. There's still a low probability that low strength attacks will do much, but that's a marginal increase over the previous probability of zero.

DaemonReign
05-03-2012, 19:19
True, but it's important to recognize that a volley of gnoblar sharp stuff can now wound it when last edition they could not. There's still a low probability that low strength attacks will do much, but that's a marginal increase over the previous probability of zero.

.. An infinite increase actually. :p
But as we both know it's not really the ToWound rolls that are the problem; You generally want at least some kind of negative modifyer on that Armour Save that comes afterwards.
But you're right of course - it's just I'd rather fire on the Stank with a handfull of Spearchukkas compared to lining up Bow-Gobbos for the same point-value.

The bearded one
05-03-2012, 19:31
compared to the previous edition two changes must be recognised when it comes to wounding steamtanks. 6's always wound now, but on the other hand the thing did become T10, so generally wounding on a 4+ is the best one can manage (without magic or magic weapons).

knightime98
05-03-2012, 20:07
Wow you think it's that good?
My buddy has two of them but I've never seen them do anything spectacular. It seems to me all you need to do is to focus on it with some determination until you manage to knock it down a few wounds and after that it's just gonna sit there and look pretty.
Saying that 'everyone can wound it on a 6' is making things sound easier than they are, admittedly.. But hell, I've seen Goblin Bolt Throwers make it come to a "full stop" on numerous occassions.. It takes a few tries of course.. That's 300 points that's just sitting there looking stupid.

My Empire buddy hardly ever fields the thing anymore. Especially not against my Daemons because they honestly just relish the opportunity.

But I like that Stank. That's all I'm saying. Just surpriced to see you saying it should cost 50pts more. :)

I agree with this poster. The Steam Tank is highly over rated. It is a piece of field scenery. It comes to the battlefield already wounded. It can not function fully without a chance of wounding itself. I have only fielded a Steam Tank maybe 5 times in 10 years of playing Empire. It has been perhaps 3 or 4 years since I played with it in an army list. It is my opinion that it is truly a piece of junk. Once it takes a few wounds, it is really just immobile and useless. I also see that the Steam Tank as a crutch for some Empire players. It really isn't needed. For 300 points, you can have a block of 50'ish halberds w/cmd. I'd rather have them soldiers on the field. Not to mention, the Steam Tank becomes a Primary target for the Pit of Shades. You lose 300 points before the game even starts (if you lose first turn, 6 dice Pit w/ IF and bingo ST gone!)...

So it seems to me.

I just played a tournament with Empire in a 2500 point army list. I did not field a ST and took best battle points. Mostly infantry, 2 cannons, Helstrom Rocket battery, unit of 6 knights, and rest all infantry kitted out. Kill of the tournament for me was a one shot one kill against a hydra. Also, the mace of helstrum that hit the armies Slaughter Master General and dealt 5 wounds killing him instantly. That was awesome.

Remember, that if Empire does not have the tools in the tool belt they can not compete. Neutering them into oblivion will make them worse than a gobbo themed army. As it is, all their guys are T3, S3 and at best a 5+ AS (save knights and great swords). Without characters and their support of the army, you have no army to field. It really is that simple. Take away their toys and Empire becomes unplayable.

redfury
05-03-2012, 20:13
Nothing...seventh edition stuff just seems overall inferior to both sixth and eight.

Morkash
05-03-2012, 20:51
What I do not like about the Steam Tank is that while you can render it basically useless, it still sits there, denying points. And actually killing it is a lot harder than just reducing it to, say, 5 or 6 wounds.

Edit: On a second thought, that also makes it very hard to balance cost/efficacy. Most times you will see some performance of it, sometimes it will take wounds and then do nothing.

The bearded one
05-03-2012, 20:52
Nothing...seventh edition stuff just seems overall inferior to both sixth and eight.

ever fought daemons or dark elves?

Bigman
05-03-2012, 22:45
I will miss the dispel dice most. On the flip side removing them may allow us to keep the rod of power...

I will miss the lack of empire magic weapons. We may get at the most two, one of which will be our 100 point runefang. Unless they make generals 4 attacks it's just a waste of points!

Other things? Umm not much. I'm looking forward to a new take on Empire.

Three books in I'm sure (touch wood) GW have a half decent idea where they want mortals to be in terms of strengths/weaknesses.

Hrogoff the Destructor
06-03-2012, 00:45
I always just throw my steam tank at the biggest scariest unit I can.

Then it gets wounded and does nothing the rest of the game.

It's not uncommon to see it get killed, but it generally ties up a deathstar unit long enough for me focus on the rest of the player's army.

Harwammer
06-03-2012, 11:39
knightime98 you say you don't rate the steam tank but it does sound like you haven't even used it in 8th. There are a lot of armies fielding 400 points+ units, if you can stall one of these for most of a game with 300 points I think that isn't too bad an investment.
Maybe you should actually give it a try before you dismiss it?


(Devils advocate there : I've never used one for my empire in 8th either; like you I prefer boots-on-table lists.

Spiney Norman
06-03-2012, 12:05
With a new book imminent with lots of new dazzling shiney shiney new stuff, take a moment to think what we might lose and why will you miss it.

For me I will miss certain magic items, out of the old books I think the empire had the biggest range of useful and well thought out items. Not just the VHS or AoMI but also:

The rod of power, aldreds casket of sorcery, laurels of victory, the dawn armour, the sword of fate and many other cool and funky items.

I will not miss the imperial banner!

I'm hoping the rod of power and VHS will stay in the empire list, but several of the items you mentioned already exist within the new common list under different names. The dawn armour is a suit of mundane full plate plus the dawn stone, the armour of silver steel is an appropriately costed version of the AoMI. Alfred's casket is a wacky item that I always though was a little bizarre, I can't say I'll miss it to be honest.

If I were to pick out 8 items for the new book that are distinct from the common items and say "empire" I would go for
Rune fang
Imperial banner
Griffon standard
Rod of power
VHS
Hammer of judgement
Grey wand
1 space left

The one item I will really miss is the crimson amulet, auto-pass for my wizard lord when the purple sun rumbles overhead or dwellers below gets off has been a massive weight off my mind.

Far2Casual
06-03-2012, 12:30
You have my voice for :

Runefang
Griffon Standard
VHS

These three items are pretty iconic and will probably stay. I would also add the Laurels which are pretty unique. I have no hope for the Rod, the Wand or the Hammer though...

I will not miss much to be honest. In fact, what I am missing the most is the 6th book.
If they rewrite the war altar, get rid of the dispell dice spam, remove flaggie as core, balance core troops, give pistoliers/outriders special rules and make the Hellblaster a threat, then I will consider play this army again.

IcedCrow
06-03-2012, 14:01
The steam tank's bargain does not come from its ability to wipe out the enemy. It comes from reliably and consistently being able to pretty much hold up any unit it wants for the entire game or most of it. On top of that, with warhammer's new "you must kill all of me to get any of my points" it is very difficult to get its points out of, and so (here at least) it is used often as a roadblock that won't move that can hold up almost anything that it wants reliably and consistently and as a points denial system, for a bargain cost.

It does not need to generate full steam points to be useful in these regards. It just needs to be able to move into combat and stay there. Taking 2 or 3 wounds off of it only makes it blow itself up if its player is still trying to generate full steam points. A reserved player using the piece as a defensive bastion does not do this and unless the tank is being taken up against a lot of cannons or a lot of enemy artillery, it can control a large portion of the table from its presence.

If it kills anything in return that's just a bonus.

I don't think that the steam tank is broken or over powered, I just feel that it's points cost is less than what its worth and as such is a bargain for what it does reliably. There are few if any defensive units that are better in the game for the points.

Commissar Vaughn
06-03-2012, 14:53
I still miss the 4th/5th ed book...best so far.

Bigman
06-03-2012, 18:26
I won't miss too much, it's more a thing of "What will I be annoyed about not fixing".

Eg I will be annoyed if knights get little or no treatment.


I think anyone on here should be prepared that at least two of the magic items will be average or worse.

Looking at ogres, yes they got hellheart, dragonhide and greedy fist, but the weapons were way overcosted and the gut plate which allowed you to reroll you impact hit wound rolls...and don't get started on the thief stone...an item that costs 50 points which allows you to take an item worth less...sarcasm mode on...WOW...

Far2Casual
08-03-2012, 08:55
Regarding the Thiefstone, your description isn't really accurate. The item is 5 pts less than what you say and comes with a Magic Resistance (2) that would normally already cost 30. So you are technically only paying 15 pts for the other part. Items 1 and 2 that you can steal cost less than that (bad deal), 3 and 4 cost exactly that (neutral deal), and 5 and 6 cost more (good deal). So it's actually clever. I am not saying this item is good, but you can see they thought about it. The really bad part of it is that Magic Resistance is very bad in 8th and all magic items that give it are overcosted. If Magic Resistance (2) was "okay" for 30 pts, the item would be useful.

Manling
10-03-2012, 02:49
I will miss our magic items the most and if the rumors are true warrior priests adding dispell dice

Altbob
12-03-2012, 19:47
I still miss the Kisvel horse archers...

Petey
12-03-2012, 19:49
I believe that the only thing I will miss is the plethora of great magic items.

hashrat
12-03-2012, 20:00
I believe that the only thing I will miss is the plethora of great magic items.

Same.
Wonder which 2 of the 8 items will actually be worth looking at in this version.

Petey
13-03-2012, 18:59
Same.
Wonder which 2 of the 8 items will actually be worth looking at in this version.
Well, this is what I think we ll get in the next book, which of them would you take

Speculum
Hammer of s10 a1
Stubborn banner (new griffon standard I'm guessing)
Mage Armor
Laurels of victory

3 new magic items

one empire general will be allowed to take a rune fang for x pts, and x pts of other crap

Spiney Norman
13-03-2012, 19:20
Well, this is what I think we ll get in the next book, which of them would you take

Speculum
Hammer of s10 a1
Stubborn banner (new griffon standard I'm guessing)
Mage Armor
Laurels of victory

3 new magic items

one empire general will be allowed to take a rune fang for x pts, and x pts of other crap

Looks more like a wish list than a realistic expectation

I think the imperial banner is probably going to be there, they seem to be rather fixated on magic banners lately and much as I'd love the option to field an elector count with a runefang AND other magic items, but I can't honestly see it happening, the speculum is another too-good-to-be-true item that will probably disappear IMHO.

I'm also kind of hopeful that we might keep the rod of power but again that seems unrealistic. The item I will miss the most: the crimson amulet, giving my wizard lord invulnerability to the instant death spells like PSX and dwellers was priceless.

Petey
13-03-2012, 19:43
Looks more like a wish list than a realistic expectation

I think the imperial banner is probably going to be there, they seem to be rather fixated on magic banners lately and much as I'd love the option to field an elector count with a runefang AND other magic items, but I can't honestly see it happening, the speculum is another too-good-to-be-true item that will probably disappear IMHO.

I'm also kind of hopeful that we might keep the rod of power but again that seems unrealistic. The item I will miss the most: the crimson amulet, giving my wizard lord invulnerability to the instant death spells like PSX and dwellers was priceless.

Not really a wishlist. The speculum's been in the game since the box set of magic item cards, I can't see it leaving the game, so I think empire keeps it. The other items I don't really care for or take, they just seemed to be the ones that would stay as they seem the most... imperial I guess.

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-03-2012, 20:45
the speculum is another too-good-to-be-true item that will probably disappear IMHO.

I don't think so. It's as iconic as the Runefang and I'd be very surprised to see it leave the game. It's also more of a neat gadget than an "OMG awesome!!1!" item.

Agoz
14-03-2012, 04:43
hmm, the speculum is part of almost every broken empire character build as it stands, I can't see them keeping it unless its severly nerfed or overpriced as is the trend with items in this edition.

DivineVisitor
14-03-2012, 09:24
The speculum will stay and i can't see it getting too much of a price hike either, cant see it becoming over 50 points for example.

Morkash
14-03-2012, 09:58
Difficult to say, since GW seems to follow the trend of making the race specific items Lords only, the Black Periapt for example, or the Death Mask for Tomb Kings. You cannot generalize of course, but I would say it is not completely unthinkable to price it at 55. Just hope you do not get a Siegebreaker equivalent! ;)

The bearded one
14-03-2012, 11:46
Same.
Wonder which 2 of the 8 items will actually be worth looking at in this version.

While O&G and TK suffered from this, and OK too to a large extent, Vampires probably have nearly 20 items and powers worth considering.