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Manling
06-03-2012, 07:42
The worst thing about this edition of warhammer is the common magic items. Dear god its like they suck all the fun and uniqueness out of the game.
When a general of the empire and a saurus oldblood both have Glittering scales and his unit of saurus have the Ranger standard like my unit of knights it just makes the game unfun. common magic items should have been kept the same as previous editions and its just a ploy to make more money because they wanted to boost sales. Restoring Magic items to armies makes them unique and adds flavor and quite frankly most of the common magic items suck Donkey nuts anyway and dont even make a real difference in actual gameplay.

So What are your thoughts?

quietus1986
06-03-2012, 07:45
don't agree alot of the commmn items are great. I can make some realy nice combos with them en my vampire counts. ( strigoi king tha +3 attacks sword potion of strength.)

jack da greenskin
06-03-2012, 07:47
I think theyre great. Easy to find, everyone apart from dwarf and daemon players know what you're on about when you talk about them, better than listing 20 similar items in each army book... Fantastic IMO.

Reducing number of magic items in army books however... I dont like that. No problem reducing it from 50 to 30 or 25, but not 8 :S

Echunia
06-03-2012, 07:54
How is it a ploy to make money? xD

I think the change is great, it increases balance immensely and trims the unnecessary fat off the armybooks.

Gorbad Ironclaw
06-03-2012, 07:57
Considering that the alternative to common items is to have every army book filled with identical versions of most of those items I really don't see how they make any real difference. I'd rather them spending time/space on other things in the army books than reprinting yet another version of a +1 S sword or what have you.

Dreadlordpaul
06-03-2012, 08:01
i agree with you tbh the only new common magic item i use is the talisman of presevation. I mean as a WoC player why use the asf sword when i can get a enchanted item at the same cost which also gives me asf and enables me to take a magic weapon as well. For that same reason why would i take the wizarding hat which will take all of my lords magic item points when i can take the book of secrets. Also why take the +3 attacks or +3 strength sword when i can take the demon sword

Bladelord
06-03-2012, 08:02
I like the new common magic items , but reducing the armybooks magic items from 4 pages to 1 is just insane, I don't get it!
Don't u O&G players miss all your sneaky stuff?

Morkash
06-03-2012, 08:04
I have to disagree. I think with the Common Magic Items it is possible to add more depth and army specific options in the Armybooks themselves, instead of having to rely on a vast list of magic items to create diversity. Don't get me wrong, I miss quite a few (Tenderizer :cries:), but directly compared I prefer each of the 8th edition armybooks with the shared Common Items over their previous incarnation from 6th/7th edition.

Dreadlordpaul
06-03-2012, 08:09
id rather not have every player know every possible combo my chaos lord could have thank you very much

Artinam
06-03-2012, 08:16
I like it a lot, only the trimming of magic items in the new books has been a bit overkill. In general I like the current system a lot better.

ArtificerArmour
06-03-2012, 08:20
It helped older army books compete once again and breathed a bit pf new life in them wheres the issue?

BigbyWolf
06-03-2012, 08:21
id rather not have every player know every possible combo my chaos lord could have thank you very much

Knowing is one thing, but given the number of combinations he could have it would be very difficult for your opponent to prepare for all of them.

OT- +1 in support of the BRB items, but I think it would have been better if they'd kept a few of the more colourful magic items from the books.

TsukeFox
06-03-2012, 08:34
i agree with you tbh the only new common magic item i use is the talisman of presevation. I mean as a WoC player why use the asf sword when i can get a enchanted item at the same cost which also gives me asf and enables me to take a magic weapon as well. For that same reason why would i take the wizarding hat which will take all of my lords magic item points when i can take the book of secrets. Also why take the +3 attacks or +3 strength sword when i can take the demon sword

Well when Warriors get a new book I am sure the double items you mention will get trimmed away. Hopefully daemonic gifts will stay like big names & vamperic powers.

I will be sad the day they redo Skaven for I love all their items.
I do miss the flavorful O&G items-"One Hit Wonda-!"
12-13 items for 8th edition books would have been nice.

Leogun_91
06-03-2012, 08:36
It helps balance but hamper uniqueness. It was fun to create characters with distinctly green items rather than common ones but the new system is more balanced.

Ratbeast
06-03-2012, 08:39
don't agree alot of the commmn items are great. I can make some realy nice combos with them en my vampire counts. ( strigoi king tha +3 attacks sword potion of strength.)

I think Skabscrath, potion of strenght and dragonbane gem be way to go on ghoul king

DaemonReign
06-03-2012, 08:48
I had to vote 'Yes' in this poll.
To be fair, that's not strictly the fault of the Magic Items in the Basic Rule Book, but rather (as others have been pointing out) the idiotic decrease of Army Specific Items in the new Army Books released for 8th Edition.
The BRB 'shared' Items fill pretty much the same role as before in my opinion, it would just be ridiculous if every army had its own version of "Talisman of Preservation" or whatever, but when New Army Books are released with less than 10 Magic Items (out of which half are useless) alot of the previous dynamic is lost.
For anyone even remotely interested in background it's just a total turn-off when two characters are locked in a challange both wielding the same supposedly unique artefact.
I also don't give much for the notion of the decrease of Army specific items being good for balance. As ever it's the Core mechanics of 8th Edition that acts as a safeguard for general balance. It doesn't matter if a specific book has got a thousand unique choices or none what-so-ever. It just doesn't.

Dreadlordpaul
06-03-2012, 08:48
Well when Warriors get a new book I am sure the double items you mention will get trimmed away. Hopefully daemonic gifts will stay like big names & vamperic powers.


i want gifts that are on par with the daemon ones thank you very much, and if they remove the daemon sword i will personally just quit the game as alot of the generic items are over costed

Rosstifer
06-03-2012, 08:48
I love generic Magic Items. And my Stubborn, 3++ Ward Save Tzeentch Chaos Disk Lord loves them too.

Scythe
06-03-2012, 09:29
I like the common magic items. It beats having a 4+ ward save item or similar in every damn book (and prevents any book from being forgotten that way). They are a good generalization of some widely available items that could be useful for any army. This keeps the army books free for some more unique and characterful items for a specific army.

Now, they could have done with a few more additional unique items per army (say... 20 instead of the current 10), but I dirges.

Wesser
06-03-2012, 09:32
Common magic items are a good concept for all the above reasons.

However by comparison the 4th edition magic supplement with all the common items in there was much superior.

Why? Because there were items you wanted to take. Okay, that was back in the days of Herohammer, but still.



Atm I find myself using:
Sword of Anti-heroes
Swiftslaying
Bloodshed/Strife

E. Shield
Dragonhelm
Dispel Scroll
Flame Banner
Ironcurse Icon
Glittering Scales

Using other than those are rare indeed. A few more may be useful depending on preference, but especially the Arcane section and Magic Banners are riddled with terrible crap. Ever used Wailing Banner? Or Warrior Bane? Book of Ashur anyone?

None of the items have to be awesome, but too many are so useless that they should have been caught in development.

BigbyWolf
06-03-2012, 09:36
i want gifts that are on par with the daemon ones thank you very much

I don't ever really think that the Warriors Daemonic Gifts should be on a par with the Daemon Daemonic Gifts, I'd rather they were more like random mutations anyway, with the exception of Princes, but they should get their own list.


alot of the generic items are over costed

I'd say most of them are fairly costed, particularly the useful ones (armour, weapons, ward saves). Heck, some of them are very cheap depending on which army you play (the Charmed Shield is half the price of a regular shield for a Chaos Lord).


if they remove the daemon sword i will personally just quit the game

And that's just silly.

Lakomasoi
06-03-2012, 09:42
Personally im torn, I really do miss some of the uniqueness of the magic items and will probably cry when they redo skaven. However Its nice not to have to look at my opponent sideways when he/ she mentions magic item A i've never heard of. As far as liking the magic items in the BRB goes I wish they made some more unique ones instead of identical magic items that are slightly better and cost more, IE Armor of destiny, Armor of Fortune, etc. I know items like those are standard but I wish other ones had some more character. Im also with the people that wanted a little more Items I would say 15 would have been good. I also wish the prices of some would drop by like five points but thats my opinion.

Id really enjoy it if they released a magical supplement book with more items, some for specific armies but at least they would all be in one place.

Oogie boogie boss
06-03-2012, 09:55
I'm a big fan of the increased importance of common magic items. The days of dozens of race items were fun, but in 8th the emphasis is more on the strenght of army synergy and unit-based stategy. Characters are really ways of amplifying the combat or magic effectiveness of you battle line, not on being game winners on their own, and the common magic items reflect this.

And bear in mind that there are race specific items around, they're just fewer in number and have more specific circumstances in which they can be used.

Askari
06-03-2012, 10:03
They're great. Let's face it, most of the 'unique' items in the books were just renamed versions of the same thing anyway. I much rather the current format of common magic items which everyone had some variation of (who didn't have some 5+ ward item?), and then much more unique items in the book that flavours out the book.

Case in point, Vampire Counts lost the Flayed Hauberk, which gave a 2+ armour save... i.e. Armour of Silvered Steel. They have Skabscrath however, a sword that screams.

Much better.

Far2Casual
06-03-2012, 10:14
Using other than those are rare indeed. A few more may be useful depending on preference, but especially the Arcane section and Magic Banners are riddled with terrible crap. Ever used Wailing Banner? Or Warrior Bane? Book of Ashur anyone?

Yes. WoC Chosen use the Wailing Banner all the time, my BSB purchases magical attacks with that 5 pt sword all the time, and lvl 5 wizards with lores that have small casting values are a pain :)

I like generic items, it helps a lot for balance AND for competitive play (the "yeah that items cost only 25 points y'know" syndrom).

Gazak Blacktoof
06-03-2012, 10:19
Some of the items are a bit limited in their application because there's no variation in cost for different armies, but that does create variety in the items used.

I do wonder what, if anything, they intend to do with the empire and warriors of chaos books when they're released, because at the moment I dislike taking light and heavy armours with my empire characters because they don't get to keep their 4+ full plate save. As far as the background is concerned this is less of a problem for empire, not every suit of armour is going to be full plate. This is not the case with chaos characters, who should all benefit from their chaos armour. It is as much a part of them as their marks.

Adra
06-03-2012, 10:21
The op just sounds too much of a rant to take seriously. Common magic items are a way to make money? How on earth is that true? A magic sword is whatever you call it, you dont need a new model for it. Sigh. As skaven i like the common magic items. i think its a nice leveling factor.

Arctaeus
06-03-2012, 10:26
Basic items i've seen used:

War banner
Either of the 5point magic swords (to deal with Ethereal)
Channeling Staff
Talisman of Preservation (as Vampire Counts don't have a ward-save or anti KB item)
Dragonbane Gem/Helm (a godsend against Dwarf Flaming Cannons)
Armour of Silvered Steel (good to protect Vampire BSBs)
Potion of Strength
Potion of Foolhardiness (if i have 5 points spare, but usually I just buy another Skeleton instead now their points have gone down)

theunwantedbeing
06-03-2012, 10:34
I had to vote 'Yes' in this poll.
To be fair, that's not strictly the fault of the Magic Items in the Basic Rule Book, but rather (as others have been pointing out) the idiotic decrease of Army Specific Items in the new Army Books released for 8th Edition.
The BRB 'shared' Items fill pretty much the same role as before in my opinion, it would just be ridiculous if every army had its own version of "Talisman of Preservation" or whatever, but when New Army Books are released with less than 10 Magic Items (out of which half are useless) alot of the previous dynamic is lost.

Agreed, although having a common 4+ ward, +1 leadership banner, stubborn helm and so on really don't help matters in the slightest.
These "common" items are just too damned powerful so everyone takes them in favour of everything else.
They also weren't really fleshed out properly, sure there's nearly a hundred of them but most are dull unimaginative things.

Spiney Norman
06-03-2012, 10:34
No, not at all, I support a large bank of common items rather than lots of army spec ones.

In all honesty most of the 6th/7th army books only had a handful of items that were regularly used anyway, I don't see that cutting away the dross from the army books and expanding the common selection is a problem.

It's also a dream come true from a game balance perspective. A lot of problems in 7th edition were caused by massively overpowered items like the pendent of Khaleth, the book of hoeth, the infernal puppet and the cupped hands of the old ones that were ony available to one army, at least a large selection of common items levels the field and prevents those kind of abuses.

Its also not like there is a definitive "sword of battle" bit that you have to give to your character model with a SoB, a Saurus carrying a sword of battle could have a weapon that looked very different to a dark elf sword of battle so it doesn't effect your army theme very much at all. Most people that lament the loss of army specific items do so because they're used to winning games of the back of the book of hoeth or the pendent which are clearly overpowered and give you a great advantage over other armies. In which case you'll be a lot better off without the crutches as you might actually learn to play the game.

Grocklock
06-03-2012, 10:40
I like the reduced magic items, i remeber the days of hero hammer and it was really no fun, i see magic items as a slight bonus, for your lord or hero not one of the defining parts of the list, by reducing the power of these items means the troops get to play as well

The Low King
06-03-2012, 15:41
Using other than those are rare indeed. A few more may be useful depending on preference, but especially the Arcane section and Magic Banners are riddled with terrible crap. Ever used Wailing Banner? Or Warrior Bane? Book of Ashur anyone?

Used all three actually at one point or another. Level 5 slan are fun :D


I like the common items, they provide a balance and diversity that army specific items lack. The vast majority of broken/Op items are army specific (i say vast majority because i know some people consider a certain Crown and banner too good).

I love having the specific fluffy items availible to specific armies (Blade of realities) but it gets very difficult to remember the items from every book and the number of times ive discovered im in a bad matchup (or the other way around) because i didnt know what an item did (or was mistaken about it) is insane.

Spiney Norman
06-03-2012, 15:49
Used all three actually at one point or another. Level 5 slan are fun :D


I like the common items, they provide a balance and diversity that army specific items lack. The vast majority of broken/Op items are army specific (i say vast majority because i know some people consider a certain Crown and banner too good).

I love having the specific fluffy items availible to specific armies (Blade of realities) but it gets very difficult to remember the items from every book and the number of times ive discovered im in a bad matchup (or the other way around) because i didnt know what an item did (or was mistaken about it) is insane.

I think the point is that broken common items are far less of a concern because there is nothing to stop everyone taking it in their army if they want to, if you really think the crown of command is that good, then I guess you'll take it in every army list you write, if it really is that good I imagine it'll be in every army list you end up fighting against as well, hey presto: balance!

S_A_T_S
06-03-2012, 15:51
Being a dwarf and daemon player ;) I'm not very interested in the common items. They always seemed rather generic and bland, and that's one of the reasons I picked dwarves as my first fantasy army 3-4 editions ago. I can see how they are important to other forces (we all want that 4++ on our heirophant/general), and it would be silly to have different named items with same rules and different costs in different books, but why make up a description for each one? Why not simply let ppl buy the ability from the Rule Book, removing the stupidity of two generals armed with exactly the same ancient magical relics when they could both have 4++ saves from something you can make up on the spot/to fit fluff of army?

IcedCrow
06-03-2012, 15:53
I disagree. Strongly. Mainly with the premise that they are so horribly bad.

It makes playtesting and balancing much easier. Balance to me is more important than having 1000 unique items per book, of which people only took the same 4 or 5 anyway for the most part, and of which testing and balancing was made very difficult.

loveless
06-03-2012, 16:02
So...

Good:
Imperial Sword of Truthiness - 35 points - Wielder has +1 Attack.
Chaotic Sword of Stabbiness - 35 points - Wielder has +1 Attack.
Ugruk's Cleava of Pointiness - 35 points - Wielder has +1 Attack.
Dark Sword of the Kraken - 35 points - Wielder has +1 Attack.
Chracian Axe of Leone - 35 points - Wielder has +1 Attack.
Blood-drenched Sword of Cutting - 35 points - Wielder has +1 Attack.

Bad:
Stabby Sword - 35 points - Wielder has +1 Attack.

If it has a name that matches the army, it's a good item (i.e., the unique Magic Items), but if it has a generic name, it's a bad item (i.e., common Magic Items).

Yeah...no.

The common items are fine. It cuts out a lot of the crap from the army books.

Phazael
06-03-2012, 16:07
There are about ten that see regular play: Other Tricksters Shard, Banner of Eternal Flame, Stubborn Crown, Fencers Blades, Talisman of Preservation, Dispell Scroll, Charmed Shield, Dragon Helm, Enchanted Shield, and Standard of Discipline. There are maybe a half dozen that see occasional use in situational builds: Ogre Blade, 5pt weapon for ethereals, Armor of Destiny, ASF sword, Dawnstone, and Earthing Rod. The rest of that very long list of items that no one ever touches, which when you combine it with the 80% useless crap that the new books are comming out with means lots of unused junk. I am fine with the huge common item section, it would just be nice to see the bulk of them be competititively priced for what they do and for the army specific items to be slightly more numerous plus a little more useful. Lots of options do not matter if there is such a wide gulf between the useful and the completely worthless.

hightimes
06-03-2012, 16:08
I like the new common magic items , but reducing the armybooks magic items from 4 pages to 1 is just insane, I don't get it!
Don't u O&G players miss all your sneaky stuff?

Yes yes we bloody do :(

ashc
06-03-2012, 16:22
They're great. Let's face it, most of the 'unique' items in the books were just renamed versions of the same thing anyway. I much rather the current format of common magic items which everyone had some variation of (who didn't have some 5+ ward item?), and then much more unique items in the book that flavours out the book.

Case in point, Vampire Counts lost the Flayed Hauberk, which gave a 2+ armour save... i.e. Armour of Silvered Steel. They have Skabscrath however, a sword that screams.

Much better.

This. What I would say is done.

Askari
06-03-2012, 16:30
There are about ten that see regular play: Other Tricksters Shard, Banner of Eternal Flame, Stubborn Crown, Fencers Blades, Talisman of Preservation, Dispell Scroll, Charmed Shield, Dragon Helm, Enchanted Shield, and Standard of Discipline. There are maybe a half dozen that see occasional use in situational builds: Ogre Blade, 5pt weapon for ethereals, Armor of Destiny, ASF sword, Dawnstone, and Earthing Rod. The rest of that very long list of items that no one ever touches, which when you combine it with the 80% useless crap that the new books are comming out with means lots of unused junk. I am fine with the huge common item section, it would just be nice to see the bulk of them be competititively priced for what they do and for the army specific items to be slightly more numerous plus a little more useful. Lots of options do not matter if there is such a wide gulf between the useful and the completely worthless.

I use and have seen used far more than that. Talisman of Endurance, Seed of Rebirth, Dragonstone, Armour of Silvered Steel, Feedback Scroll, Hex Scroll, Sword of Strife/Bloodshed, Sword of Anti-Heroes. I've even seen the Shield of Ptolos and Trickster's Helm used on specific characters (Captasus and some Ogre I believe...)

That's a huge chunk of items that I've seen used - far more than some of the old army books items which were split 20/80 utterly broken/utterly rubbish.

Jind_Singh
06-03-2012, 16:45
Common items are fine - there are enough items in there and I still haven't used a lot of them as I haven't got there yet.

I do miss some of the army specific stuff - the new 8th ed books are wins for the most part, but missing out on more choices for army specific stuff (I was a Greenskin player so noticed this quite keenly).

However, I only use a handful of characters who don't take too many toys to war anyway:

General - armour of destiny, ironcurse icon
Lord - Stunty Basha (Orcs & Goblins book), armour of fortune
BSB - Spider Banner (Orcs & Goblins book)
Hero - Enchanted shield

And then I take some random potions or cheap items if the mood takes me (5pt limit typically).

The bearded one
06-03-2012, 16:47
How is it a ploy to make money? xD

same here. I don't understand how it's a ploy to make money... unless you want to argue that GW is trying to force you to actually buy the rulebook :p

Quinzy
06-03-2012, 16:48
id rather not have every player know every possible combo my chaos lord could have thank you very much

Why not? If they have your book they'll know what's in it. There's nothing to hide in the army book.
Don't rely on confusing your opponent to beat them. That's bad generalship.

Lord Inquisitor
06-03-2012, 16:49
Overall, I am very much in favour of the current system. Make a balanced set of generic items and then add 8 or so unique items. Great. I don't miss many items from the old books. It makes it easy to balance and playtest. Fantastic philosophy. So no, I don't think the commn magic items are Bad.

Where the items really fall down in the rulebook is that many are redundant, most are never taken. This goes double for the items in the army books - only 8 items is a great philosophy, but make them 8 useful items.

With the rulebook items, a large number are very similar (4+ ward, armour of 4+ ward, 5+ ward, armour of 5+ ward, 6+ ward, armour of 6+ ward) and many are never taken. Who takes the shield of 1+ vs shooting? NOt at 25 points. Make it 5 or 10 and we'll talk. Conversely fire wards are pretty good for their points. Many are also very equivalent to generic items. Why would I take +2 strength sword when I can have a great weapon for a fifth of the points? +1 attack or an additional hand weapon, hmm? Now someone always comes along to say "I totally use the sword of battle!" but often the less-seen weapons have uses only in very specific builds. There was a lack of imagination, as well as some very obvious things missing. How about a sword that causes killing blow? Or poisoned attacks? Or flaming attacks?

The weapons I see used are: Fencer's blades, Sword of Anti-heroes, Sword of Swift Slaying, Sword of Striking, Warrior Bane (cheapest anti-etherial weapon). 5/19
Armour:Armour of Destiny, Armour of Silvered Steel, Glittering Scales, Dragonhelm, Enchanted & Charmed Shields. 6/12
Talismans: Talisman of Preservation, Dawnstone, Dragonbane gem. 3/12
Standards: Razor standard, Standard of Discipline, Banner of Eternal Flame. 3/11
Arcane Items: Earthing rod, Dispel scroll, Channeling staff. 3/14
Enchanted Items: Crown of Command, Ruby ring of ruin, Potion of Strength, Other Trickster's Shard, Ironcurse Icon 5/14

Now, this doesn't include some specific builds. Firebellies like the Potion of Speed. Chosen like the Wailing Banner. Brets seem to like the Rampager's Standard. Folding Fortress has some abusive builds.

Overall, though, I typically see 30% of generic magic items in actual use. Many of the, frankly boring repetitive items (+1, +2, +3 attacks and strength, MR 1, 2, 3, ward saves of 6+ and 5+) just aren't fielded and it's a shame we don't have more interesting items in their place.

The army book items likewise need to be balanced and interesting. The Ogres got a bigger selection than the Orcs and Tomb Kings but all of the big names are pretty much worthless and very uninteresting. Their two magic weapons are so overpriced as to be ludicrous. What were they thinking about the Siegebreaker?

So in principle the design philosophy is sound. Make a decent selection of rulebook items and a small but cool list of items in each book. But they need to be playtested properly!

nurgle5
06-03-2012, 17:07
Common magic items are great. No need for the same (or stupidly similar) items to put into every armybook under slightly different names just so everyone gets their 4++. At the heart of it, magic items are a character buff system; and if fluff was so important you wouldn't get people complaining about the power level of the items.


I like the new common magic items , but reducing the armybooks magic items from 4 pages to 1 is just insane, I don't get it!

Is there really a need for 4 pages of character buffs per armybook?


id rather not have every player know every possible combo my chaos lord could have thank you very much

Your opponent certainly shouldn't know the exact setup, but should have a good idea of his abilities.


i want gifts that are on par with the daemon ones thank you very much

Given that more than quite a few of the Daemonic gifts in that book are intended for Daemon Princes and Greater Daemons, I think that'd be way OTT on a mortal.


and if they remove the daemon sword i will personally just quit the game as alot of the generic items are over costed

That's a little extreme don't you think? Does a character buff system really mean that much to you?


I love generic Magic Items. And my Stubborn, 3++ Ward Save Tzeentch Chaos Disk Lord loves them too.
:eek: ...Time to acquire some Tzeentch units methinks :D

mindrazor
06-03-2012, 17:26
personally, i hate common magic items, its not fun when everything the same just 1 up, i mean that you can choose from 6++ to 4++save, or 1+ str to 3+ str, and 1+ atack to 3+ atack.

yabbadabba
06-03-2012, 17:40
Old days - a mix of common and army specific items, with more common than army specific.

New days - a mix of common and army specific items, with more common than army specific.

Sir_Turalyon
06-03-2012, 17:42
I like the new common magic items, and the fact that most of the magic item list for any army now resides in rulebook rather than armybooks. Removing the redundant magic items is one thing, improving balance by not having to check how 10+ long item lists is other... but the main perk is, it makes the system transparent. Whether I know opponents setup from the start or not, it is good to know what effect the items have without having to learn multiple long item lists. There is much less room for confusion and outright cheating, for either believing the opponent on his word that his items work as he says or for flipping his book just to make sure. If the opponent does not know his items, catching and calling his errors is much easier. It's much harder to call opponents error out of confusion ("Ok, your HE version of +1 save really helmet gives you immunity to fire like you said ... I was sure it was Empire one that did it"). All in all, it improves flow of the game.

@ Lord Inquisitor : I believe all item lists ended up with most of items never being used. It's not a flow of common magic items, it's a general magic item problem they didn't fix when making this list.

Stonewyrm
06-03-2012, 18:01
I like the added ability to customise given by the generic magic items. The possibilities are not endless, my opponent will always have a good idea of what I can have but never will know what I will have.
Even now after more than 1 1/2 years there are still new combos that are being found out. Helped of course by the items/abilities in the new books like, glittering scales + Zombie Dragon.
Who would have thought that glittering scales would become so popular or that Dragons would even be playable again??
Some items are just bad, I agree, but some are just waiting for a change in the local Meta to be useful again. For Example:

As more people take Ward saves then more will take other tricksters to counter it. Then people might switch to Regen+Dragonhelm, +1 T, better AS or -1 to hit.
All of these also have their counters so the cycle starts again. This cycle of counter and counter-counter made possible by the generics is cool and adds a lot to keep the game fresh.

What I would change is some of the point costs to make more options viable. +1 T is too expensive, Seed of Rebirth should have a 5+ version, Glittering should have a HvArmour version ect.

Lord Inquisitor
06-03-2012, 18:07
@ Lord Inquisitor : I believe all item lists ended up with most of items never being used. It's not a flow of common magic items, it's a general magic item problem they didn't fix when making this list.
Maybe... but most weren't quite as boring as the generic items. Plus even so, it doesn't make it okay that the 8th ed items are quite so full of boring and underused options.


Who would have thought that glittering scales would become so popular?
I blame Twilight.

Spiney Norman
06-03-2012, 18:13
So in principle the design philosophy is sound. Make a decent selection of rulebook items and a small but cool list of items in each book. But they need to be playtested properly!

I don't dispute that the philosophy is sound, but the execution hasn't lived up to the promise. Ok so in the 7th edition books we maybe used around 15-20% of the items it contains, therefore if we reduce the number of items by 80% only the ones people use will be left. It would be great if it actually worked that way, unfortunately they haven't got any better at designing magic items, so we only use around 15% of the ones they design, which means, unfortunately, we now only have on average one or two usable magic items per army book instead of the 6-8 we had last edition. In the o&g book only the lucky shrunken head is really worth taking, and then only if you have a decent sized unit of savage orcs. The only other item I've used from the o&g book is the battle axe, and that was more for kicks to see what would happen, there's no way it's really worth 100pts.

When it comes to book designed by GW more magic items is better because you can guarantee they will be at least 80% dross

I think tomb kings got a worse deal with nothing really outstanding (by which I mean in almost every case I'd much rather take something from the common items list), the mighty scroll would be awesome if you didn't have to put it on a wizard with a crappy spell selection that you have to keep alive at all costs, but hey.

Ogres got the hell heart which is a pretty good item, nothing else really worth mentioning, and I can't really comment on the VC item list because I've not really had a chance to go through it in detail.

I still think a predominantly common MI list works best, that way all armies broadly have access to the same items and anything that is overtly broken can be fixed for all armies in one shot (eg power scroll).

DivineVisitor
06-03-2012, 18:24
Gotta agree with what i see most people have said in that they like the change. Though i'd like to see the common magic item list expanded more to perhaps double its current size.

Lorcryst
06-03-2012, 18:52
Rage poll is raging !

Seriously, as an O&G player, specifically a Night Goblin player, I've seen and been hurt by the reduction of army specific items like almost all greenskin generals ... I still take the Bad Moon Banner on my Night(!) Goblin BSB tough, for the fluff and the potential ...

But the Common Item are a GORKSEND I tellz ya, lub dem.

ashc
06-03-2012, 18:58
In other words there is more of a problem with poorly designed army-unique items than the common item pool itself. The VC book did very well at it.

ihavetoomuchminis
06-03-2012, 19:08
Overall, I am very much in favour of the current system. Make a balanced set of generic items and then add 8 or so unique items. Great. I don't miss many items from the old books. It makes it easy to balance and playtest. Fantastic philosophy. So no, I don't think the commn magic items are Bad.

Where the items really fall down in the rulebook is that many are redundant, most are never taken. This goes double for the items in the army books - only 8 items is a great philosophy, but make them 8 useful items.

With the rulebook items, a large number are very similar (4+ ward, armour of 4+ ward, 5+ ward, armour of 5+ ward, 6+ ward, armour of 6+ ward) and many are never taken. Who takes the shield of 1+ vs shooting? NOt at 25 points. Make it 5 or 10 and we'll talk. Conversely fire wards are pretty good for their points. Many are also very equivalent to generic items. Why would I take +2 strength sword when I can have a great weapon for a fifth of the points? +1 attack or an additional hand weapon, hmm? Now someone always comes along to say "I totally use the sword of battle!" but often the less-seen weapons have uses only in very specific builds. There was a lack of imagination, as well as some very obvious things missing. How about a sword that causes killing blow? Or poisoned attacks? Or flaming attacks?

The weapons I see used are: Fencer's blades, Sword of Anti-heroes, Sword of Swift Slaying, Sword of Striking, Warrior Bane (cheapest anti-etherial weapon). 5/19
Armour:Armour of Destiny, Armour of Silvered Steel, Glittering Scales, Dragonhelm, Enchanted & Charmed Shields. 6/12
Talismans: Talisman of Preservation, Dawnstone, Dragonbane gem. 3/12
Standards: Razor standard, Standard of Discipline, Banner of Eternal Flame. 3/11
Arcane Items: Earthing rod, Dispel scroll, Channeling staff. 3/14
Enchanted Items: Crown of Command, Ruby ring of ruin, Potion of Strength, Other Trickster's Shard, Ironcurse Icon 5/14

Now, this doesn't include some specific builds. Firebellies like the Potion of Speed. Chosen like the Wailing Banner. Brets seem to like the Rampager's Standard. Folding Fortress has some abusive builds.

Overall, though, I typically see 30% of generic magic items in actual use. Many of the, frankly boring repetitive items (+1, +2, +3 attacks and strength, MR 1, 2, 3, ward saves of 6+ and 5+) just aren't fielded and it's a shame we don't have more interesting items in their place.

The army book items likewise need to be balanced and interesting. The Ogres got a bigger selection than the Orcs and Tomb Kings but all of the big names are pretty much worthless and very uninteresting. Their two magic weapons are so overpriced as to be ludicrous. What were they thinking about the Siegebreaker?

So in principle the design philosophy is sound. Make a decent selection of rulebook items and a small but cool list of items in each book. But they need to be playtested properly!

COuldn't agree more with this post.

gdsora
06-03-2012, 19:15
I like the idea of common items and I have enjoyed them.

I understand that the creation of the large common items and the reduction of the army book items.

BUT BUT BUT

If you are going to only put a few army book items, make them worth it. Very few of the new army book items seem worth taking

Petey
06-03-2012, 20:12
Overall, I am very much in favour of the current system. Make a balanced set of generic items and then add 8 or so unique items. Great. I don't miss many items from the old books. It makes it easy to balance and playtest. Fantastic philosophy. So no, I don't think the commn magic items are Bad.

Where the items really fall down in the rulebook is that many are redundant, most are never taken. This goes double for the items in the army books - only 8 items is a great philosophy, but make them 8 useful items.

With the rulebook items, a large number are very similar (4+ ward, armour of 4+ ward, 5+ ward, armour of 5+ ward, 6+ ward, armour of 6+ ward) and many are never taken. Who takes the shield of 1+ vs shooting? NOt at 25 points. Make it 5 or 10 and we'll talk. Conversely fire wards are pretty good for their points. Many are also very equivalent to generic items. Why would I take +2 strength sword when I can have a great weapon for a fifth of the points? +1 attack or an additional hand weapon, hmm? Now someone always comes along to say "I totally use the sword of battle!" but often the less-seen weapons have uses only in very specific builds. There was a lack of imagination, as well as some very obvious things missing. How about a sword that causes killing blow? Or poisoned attacks? Or flaming attacks?

The weapons I see used are: Fencer's blades, Sword of Anti-heroes, Sword of Swift Slaying, Sword of Striking, Warrior Bane (cheapest anti-etherial weapon). 5/19
Armour:Armour of Destiny, Armour of Silvered Steel, Glittering Scales, Dragonhelm, Enchanted & Charmed Shields. 6/12
Talismans: Talisman of Preservation, Dawnstone, Dragonbane gem. 3/12
Standards: Razor standard, Standard of Discipline, Banner of Eternal Flame. 3/11
Arcane Items: Earthing rod, Dispel scroll, Channeling staff. 3/14
Enchanted Items: Crown of Command, Ruby ring of ruin, Potion of Strength, Other Trickster's Shard, Ironcurse Icon 5/14

Now, this doesn't include some specific builds. Firebellies like the Potion of Speed. Chosen like the Wailing Banner. Brets seem to like the Rampager's Standard. Folding Fortress has some abusive builds.

Overall, though, I typically see 30% of generic magic items in actual use. Many of the, frankly boring repetitive items (+1, +2, +3 attacks and strength, MR 1, 2, 3, ward saves of 6+ and 5+) just aren't fielded and it's a shame we don't have more interesting items in their place.

The army book items likewise need to be balanced and interesting. The Ogres got a bigger selection than the Orcs and Tomb Kings but all of the big names are pretty much worthless and very uninteresting. Their two magic weapons are so overpriced as to be ludicrous. What were they thinking about the Siegebreaker?

So in principle the design philosophy is sound. Make a decent selection of rulebook items and a small but cool list of items in each book. But they need to be playtested properly!

I don't always agree with Pink Inquisitor, but when I do, it's totally.

Like in this case.

Petey
06-03-2012, 20:14
Also, I would have liked it if they included a cost in the item itself to make it Paired, Great Weapon, or Halberd

And I'm disappointed also at no generic missles of any kind in the weapons

Shimmergloom
06-03-2012, 20:35
It helps balance but hamper uniqueness. It was fun to create characters with distinctly green items rather than common ones but the new system is more balanced.

VC have twice as many items plus powers than O&G do. How is that balanced?

In a few more books, armies will have a full complement of magic items and we'll be right back to where we were before, unless you are O&G or TK and stuck with a page of almost universally useless army book items.

Not Balanced. GW have to stop screwing over a couple of armies every single edition.

Askari
06-03-2012, 20:37
Also, I would have liked it if they included a cost in the item itself to make it Paired, Great Weapon, or Halberd



No, no, that makes far too much sense to happen. :P (in other words, that's a fantastic idea...)

Von Wibble
06-03-2012, 20:37
same here. I don't understand how it's a ploy to make money... unless you want to argue that GW is trying to force you to actually buy the rulebook :p

How dare they!!

In general I am in favour of the bank of common items. The only think is that all magic items in army books should imo have very interesting effects. The Vampire book does this in general very well (though bloodlines are a bit dull, as are big names in the ogre book), and the other books are showing some kind of effort. I think the idea is that if you just want a stat increase, great save or ward you use the brb, if you want something to build a character concept around use an army book item.

Assuming all books go to the same standard as the vc list of items all I'd ask for is an increase to 12 items rather than 8-10. And better balancing of magic weapon points costs. Skabscrath is OK but the ogre weapons are pure points wastage.

Von Wibble
06-03-2012, 20:47
I think the point is that broken common items are far less of a concern because there is nothing to stop everyone taking it in their army if they want to, if you really think the crown of command is that good, then I guess you'll take it in every army list you write, if it really is that good I imagine it'll be in every army list you end up fighting against as well, hey presto: balance!

I can agree with this to a point. Some armies benefit more from broken items than others.

For example, the stubborn crown. If the character wearing this is easy to kill, leading a unit that benefits from steadfast most of the time anyway, this is not much good. If the army is undead its useless. Otoh dark elves love the item because of the ability to make a long lasting roadblock dreadlord, and I can see WoC doing pretty well too.

The ld banner was a mistake, or rather shouldn't have allowed characters in the unit to benefit from the bonus. Removing an incentive for combat lords over mage lords was a bad idea.

Also anything too powerful doesn't help dwarfs or daemons but they do have to face it (I never thought I'd try to defend these 2 armies interests but there you go!)

Kayosiv
06-03-2012, 20:59
They're great. Let's face it, most of the 'unique' items in the books were just renamed versions of the same thing anyway.

This is blatantly untrue. Each 6th and 7th edition book has at least a dozen items that are useful and nothing like the new common magic item list.

Phazael
06-03-2012, 21:03
Anyone with half a brain knew that they were not going to stick to the trend they tried to establish with the Orc book. I mean, O&G got screwed last time out with the infamous "overprice the cavalry" trend that never materialized in a subsequent book, after all. So, orks got one situational weapon and a wardsave for savage orks that a mage has to carry; two semi useful things and six outright unpolished turds. Tomb Kings got the completely broken in a double L4 build but useless otherwise scroll and the Destroyer of Eternities; the rest of their list may as well not exist. Ogres saw some improvement, with Greedyfist, Hellheart, and Rockeye seeing play, plus Giantbreaker seeing some use; oh boy one tenth of it is useful! Then VC came along and now its back to business as usual, with a bunch of powers and items of which at least half are pretty competitive. Dwarves will have to break the mold, unless they toss the rune system all together. Empire is around the corner and they always get a long christmas list of toys that do wierd and annoying things.

It was a good idea, but they fumbled the implementation by not makeing the basic choices more useful and by not keeping things even between books. I mean, VC characters are already a major cut above Orc ones and they have a much more fleshed out selection of gear than the Orcs, which points back to Lord Inquisitor's point about playtesting.

Petey
06-03-2012, 21:08
Anyone with half a brain knew that they were not going to stick to the trend they tried to establish with the Orc book. I mean, O&G got screwed last time out with the infamous "overprice the cavalry" trend that never materialized in a subsequent book, after all. So, orks got one situational weapon and a wardsave for savage orks that a mage has to carry; two semi useful things and six outright unpolished turds. Tomb Kings got the completely broken in a double L4 build but useless otherwise scroll and the Destroyer of Eternities; the rest of their list may as well not exist. Ogres saw some improvement, with Greedyfist, Hellheart, and Rockeye seeing play, plus Giantbreaker seeing some use; oh boy one tenth of it is useful! Then VC came along and now its back to business as usual, with a bunch of powers and items of which at least half are pretty competitive. Dwarves will have to break the mold, unless they toss the rune system all together. Empire is around the corner and they always get a long christmas list of toys that do wierd and annoying things.

It was a good idea, but they fumbled the implementation by not makeing the basic choices more useful and by not keeping things even between books. I mean, VC characters are already a major cut above Orc ones and they have a much more fleshed out selection of gear than the Orcs, which points back to Lord Inquisitor's point about playtesting.

Actually, I've been rethinking the orc and goblin magic items.

For a long time, I was in your camp, but recently I've come up with some builds and designs that have made a lot of good use from their list of stuff. My favorite of which is the Goblin warboss on giant spider with battle axe of the last waaagh. He s a surprising killing machine (so long as you keep him away from enemy characters).

Leogun_91
06-03-2012, 21:56
Anyone with half a brain knew that they were not going to stick to the trend they tried to establish with the Orc book. I mean, O&G got screwed last time out with the infamous "overprice the cavalry" trend that never materialized in a subsequent book, after all. So, orks got one situational weapon and a wardsave for savage orks that a mage has to carry; two semi useful things and six outright unpolished turds. Tomb Kings got the completely broken in a double L4 build but useless otherwise scroll and the Destroyer of Eternities; the rest of their list may as well not exist. Ogres saw some improvement, with Greedyfist, Hellheart, and Rockeye seeing play, plus Giantbreaker seeing some use; oh boy one tenth of it is useful! Then VC came along and now its back to business as usual, with a bunch of powers and items of which at least half are pretty competitive. Dwarves will have to break the mold, unless they toss the rune system all together. Empire is around the corner and they always get a long christmas list of toys that do wierd and annoying things.I find the Mork's Warbanner effective, protects general and BSB as long as they stay together, if my enemy challenges my general I accept and he has no toys, if he just wishes to direct attacks against my BSB a fair amount of high strength ASF attacks from my general usually proves a problem for him as he still don't get magic items. If people always direct attacks with the troops it's harder but in my experience such things are easily forgotten (and sometimes chosen against in order to get easier kills) and an orc boss is still tough unless I fight elites.

AlphariusOmegon20
06-03-2012, 22:52
I've yet to read anyone pointing out WHY the Common List of Magic items exists and why the army specific lists got pared down so much.

GW was repeating themselves in a lot of the magic items in regards to other Special rules.

What's the difference between the Bretonnian Valorous Standard does and the Lizardman special rule Cold Blooded? Absolutely nothing, they both do the exact same thing. The only difference is that the Bretonnians can lose theirs, because it's a banner. The Lizardmen can't, because it's an innate ability.

GW was also writing a 4+ ward save for several different armies, so why NOT make available for everyone as a common magic item? It saves room in the army book for something truly unique.

When you look at the situation from this perspective, it starts to make sense why they're doing what they're doing.

The bearded one
06-03-2012, 22:54
Tomb Kings got the completely broken in a double L4 build but useless otherwise scroll and the Destroyer of Eternities; the rest of their list may as well not exist.

Actually I think the wound regenerating blade is very handy, while the deathmask sees use quite often and the banner of the undying legion is decent as well.

theunwantedbeing
06-03-2012, 23:11
It saves room in the army book for something truly unique.

Erm, sorry for asking about the elephant in the room but why do we need to save room in the armybooks?

Spiney Norman
06-03-2012, 23:19
Actually I think the wound regenerating blade is very handy, while the deathmask sees use quite often and the banner of the undying legion is decent as well.

The problem I have with the TK list is that just about every item that looks like it should be good has a major downside to it that creeps up on you unexpectedly.

The mighty scroll sounds awesome until you realise that to actually make proper use of it you have to buy a second L4 high priest which puts up the cost considerably. The death mask is probably quite a good deal for 60pts, but giving it to a king means you have to sacrifice the chance to give him a decent ward or magic weapon, which is a bit of a waste. I've run the death mask king several times and I've never found it to work better than the king with the sword of bloodshed instead.

The banner of the undying legion is ok, a little overpriced for a bound spell IMHO but the problem with it is that every tomb king list already has a bound spell in it (the casket) and bound spells are, by and large, a waste of casting dice because they're so easy for enemy wizards to dispel (having a +4 advantage to dispel). The other pain in the neck with the banner is the fact that you can't easily get it into a construct unit (Ushabti or necro knights) which is where it really needs to be in order to shine.

I can't believe people actually think the DoE is worth taking, it was pretty bad last edition then it lost half it's auto-hits and went up by 5 pts, not to mention the fact that it prevents you taking even the most basic defensive gear to save your beloved kings neck. It would maybe be the worst value magic weapon in the game if runefangs were substantially cheaper.

The blade of getting wounds back is about the only TK magic item that Isn't outright garbage or has a sting in the tail, it looks pretty good on a prince, but really can't compete with the sword of bloodshed on a king.

And fewer army specific items isn't about saving room in army books, it's about reducing the risk of broken items overpowering certain armies for entire editions, aka the book of hoeth.

Sheena Easton
06-03-2012, 23:59
Common Magic Items are fine. Though some people will only use / face the same ones which is also fine as others will play about with unusual (and what net wisdom deems "bad") items / combinations. The only problem I think the common items have are some rather generic names but there is nothing stopping anyone using a bit of imagination and renaming an item (eg Fencers Blades in the hands of a Savage Orc could easily be dubbed "Gorks Best Choppaz" while on a Wood Elf the could be the Blades Of Winter).

Magic Items aren't what makes an army unique - the army itself does.

hashrat
07-03-2012, 00:00
Don't like it myself, tired of seeing the same items in every army.

AlphariusOmegon20
07-03-2012, 00:10
Erm, sorry for asking about the elephant in the room but why do we need to save room in the armybooks?

Adding in 4 pages of magic items means that 4 pages of something else gets cut, like concise rules or good fluff. It also keeps down the repeating of magic item properties in the books themselves, like I said before.

Lance Tankmen
07-03-2012, 00:12
i dont mind it, but once my new book comes out(im sure it will one day: brets) ill lose my really cool items, such as gromil great helm + dawnstone in the same list...

arthurfallz
07-03-2012, 00:27
No more so than I get tired of seeing rare, one-of-a-kind artifacts out of an army book appear in every army from that army book. It's a game, and there are limits to what can be done and keep balance. The common magic item list creates a common repitoire of magical-item effects for us to talk about and take.

Phazael
07-03-2012, 01:31
I can't believe people actually think the DoE is worth taking, it was pretty bad last edition then it lost half it's auto-hits and went up by 5 pts, not to mention the fact that it prevents you taking even the most basic defensive gear to save your beloved kings neck. It would maybe be the worst value magic weapon in the game if runefangs were substantially cheaper.

I didn't say it was great, merely useable. The price hike, despite the sweep nerf, is because its now a one handed weapon instead of a great weapon. Charmed/Enchanted Shield/Dragon Helm/Dragonbane Gem plus initiative potion or Other Tricksters Shard makes for a pretty survivable lord, when he has 4 wounds, especially if comboed with lore of light. And the DoE and Runefang have nothing on the 100 point **** the Beastmen and Ogres get. But, basically, TK get a really raw deal, about as bad as O&G.

Lord Inquisitor
07-03-2012, 02:06
I don't dispute that the philosophy is sound, but the execution hasn't lived up to the promise. Ok so in the 7th edition books we maybe used around 15-20% of the items it contains, therefore if we reduce the number of items by 80% only the ones people use will be left. It would be great if it actually worked that way, unfortunately they haven't got any better at designing magic items, so we only use around 15% of the ones they design, which means, unfortunately, we now only have on average one or two usable magic items per army book instead of the 6-8 we had last edition. In the o&g book only the lucky shrunken head is really worth taking, and then only if you have a decent sized unit of savage orcs. The only other item I've used from the o&g book is the battle axe, and that was more for kicks to see what would happen, there's no way it's really worth 100pts.

When it comes to book designed by GW more magic items is better because you can guarantee they will be at least 80% dross

I think tomb kings got a worse deal with nothing really outstanding (by which I mean in almost every case I'd much rather take something from the common items list), the mighty scroll would be awesome if you didn't have to put it on a wizard with a crappy spell selection that you have to keep alive at all costs, but hey.

Ogres got the hell heart which is a pretty good item, nothing else really worth mentioning, and I can't really comment on the VC item list because I've not really had a chance to go through it in detail.

I still think a predominantly common MI list works best, that way all armies broadly have access to the same items and anything that is overtly broken can be fixed for all armies in one shot (eg power scroll).
Well, I don't disagree with you entirely, but I don't think things are that bleak. For example, the Tomb Kings items aren't that bad. Destroyer of Eternities is expensive but worth the point (HKB is a terrific problem solver). Blade of Antarhak seems reasonable, if not totally phenomenal. Golden Death Mask is amazing and I don't know why people don't make use of it more. Cloak of the Dunes is meh because TK can't march. Scrolls of Mighty Incantations is potentially extremely powerful. Kanopi is difficult to use and somewhat dependent on opponents but occasionally can be extremely powerful. The two standards are somewhat overcosted, I'll give you that. Still, that's at least 50% decent items with 3 pretty good ones.


VC have twice as many items plus powers than O&G do. How is that balanced?
It should also be noted that there are quite a few "stealth" items and powers in the VC book. Several powers and items became mundane upgrades like the Flag of Blood Keep.

Then again, vampires have always had the absolute best selection of items and powers in the game. I was surprised their powers had a separate allowance while ogres still paid for theirs out of their magic allowance. Actually I was pretty surprised ogres kept big names to be honest. And given the treatment they received, I'd in some ways rather they hadn't bothered with them.


In a few more books, armies will have a full complement of magic items and we'll be right back to where we were before, unless you are O&G or TK and stuck with a page of almost universally useless army book items.
The Empire book will be a telling example I think. We'll see if the additional upgrades Ogres and Vamps have is a trend or just specific to these races.



For example, the stubborn crown. If the character wearing this is easy to kill, leading a unit that benefits from steadfast most of the time anyway, this is not much good. If the army is undead its useless. Otoh dark elves love the item because of the ability to make a long lasting roadblock dreadlord, and I can see WoC doing pretty well too.
It's probably the most utilised item in the rulebook list, very much an "auto include" item for most armies other than undead. Now the powerscroll has been errata'd, by far the most "broken" item (which is to say, underpriced and game altering).


The ld banner was a mistake, or rather shouldn't have allowed characters in the unit to benefit from the bonus. Removing an incentive for combat lords over mage lords was a bad idea.
To be fair, that was a weird FAQ. I doubt that was the intention of the item. I agree that it shouldn't have been ruled that way, RAW or not.


The mighty scroll sounds awesome until you realise that to actually make proper use of it you have to buy a second L4 high priest which puts up the cost considerably. The death mask is probably quite a good deal for 60pts, but giving it to a king means you have to sacrifice the chance to give him a decent ward or magic weapon, which is a bit of a waste. I've run the death mask king several times and I've never found it to work better than the king with the sword of bloodshed instead.

The banner of the undying legion is ok, a little overpriced for a bound spell IMHO but the problem with it is that every tomb king list already has a bound spell in it (the casket) and bound spells are, by and large, a waste of casting dice because they're so easy for enemy wizards to dispel (having a +4 advantage to dispel). The other pain in the neck with the banner is the fact that you can't easily get it into a construct unit (Ushabti or necro knights) which is where it really needs to be in order to shine.

I can't believe people actually think the DoE is worth taking, it was pretty bad last edition then it lost half it's auto-hits and went up by 5 pts, not to mention the fact that it prevents you taking even the most basic defensive gear to save your beloved kings neck. It would maybe be the worst value magic weapon in the game if runefangs were substantially cheaper.

The blade of getting wounds back is about the only TK magic item that Isn't outright garbage or has a sting in the tail, it looks pretty good on a prince, but really can't compete with the sword of bloodshed on a king.
The point is that these items are not necessarily that they are amazing bargains but they are worth taking. Tomb Kings have a decent selection of items that are at least workable, unlike Ogres or Orcs where some of the items are just worthless. Destroyer of Eternities isn't bad at all. Not cheap, but it allows you a great swiss-army-knife weapon that will affect most things. Steam Tanks, abombs, nasty MI, so on. While it doesn't leave you a lot of points, it does leave you enough for a dragonhelm and a potion of initiative - and since it's one handed you can use a shield. Respectable and I know several competitive TK players that use it. And if you think it's outright garbage I suggest you look to the Ogre magic weapons. Siegebreaker takes the biscuit for most useless magic item ever I think.

Battleworthy Arts
07-03-2012, 05:12
Several of the changes in 8th were disheartening, but I like the changes to magic items. The 8 or so in each army book are enough to provide uniqueness, I think.

someone2040
07-03-2012, 07:40
My oppinions on the subject are as follows:
Lots of common items, less race specific items, a good idea overall.
Could they have done stuff better? Definitely.
For starters, going from 40 to 8-12 specific is a lot of cutting down. There is a lot of room for race specific items, so I think they could've fit in a few more to add a bit of spice.
Are there lots of common items that "Aren't worth it". Sure. But some of these issues come down to not necessarily the item itself, but other parts of the game. Magic resistance talismans, are they bad because they're expensive or bad because Magic Resistance overall isn't worth a lot in the current game (Where it basically only works on magic missiles and a few direct damage that don't ignore all saves).
Magic weapons that give strength/attacks, well, at the very least they allow you to use a shield in the other hand (as opposed to a GW/Halberd/AHW). They are magical weapons as well, that's worth something. But is it potentially an issue with Great Weapons becoming common place, especially on low initiative armies or cheap characters (Should goblins really be taking magic items that cost more than themself).

In addition. I'm sure some would get used more as you go up in points. We're all thinking about tournament armies, 2400 maybe 3k being max. Well, what if the game was 5k? Would you start investing in some of those 5+ ward saves or a few cheap magic weapons to keep ethereal protection across the entire board (Magic can't reach all sides of the board).
Do the magic scrolls become more useful when you have more mages to spread the magic item allowance around on. At 2k/3k, you gotta spend every point efficiently on those mage characters to make your magic count. But at 5k, maybe you can afford a small level 1 guy whose only job is to turn an enemy problem wizard into a frog.

So that's my thoughts. I think there are a lot more useful magic items in the common section once you look past the best buy 4+ ward saves, dispel scrolls and sword of antiheroes.
Could some of them be priced better? Sure. Are some of them pretty useless (6+ talis looking at you), probably. But there are a whole lot that are just plain 'alright' as well, and they don't necessarily need to be cut because one or two armies may find that item really useful, and at least it's nice to have options.

Dreadlordpaul
07-03-2012, 07:47
Why not? If they have your book they'll know what's in it. There's nothing to hide in the army book.
Don't rely on confusing your opponent to beat them. That's bad generalship.

considering i am not the best general and i don't win often because i cant write my lists for my WoC properly then yes i do like to shock my opponent with a combo out of my own book, plus around here alot of people make their lists to exploit my armys weaknesses so what can i do

yabbadabba
07-03-2012, 08:22
considering i am not the best general and i don't win often because i cant write my lists for my WoC properly then yes i do like to shock my opponent with a combo out of my own book, plus around here alot of people make their lists to exploit my armys weaknesses so what can i do Its something that is at the core of all wargaming (balancing strengths and weaknesses), and is a key part of the argument about the behaviours behind how people play (list tailoring).
There are different answers to your dilemma but the key point is that this is how WFB works now and a part of the gaming learnign curve (which should be the fun bit!) is learning how to adapt. The more you play its likely that you will become a better player.

The bearded one
07-03-2012, 08:31
considering i am not the best general and i don't win often because i cant write my lists for my WoC properly then yes i do like to shock my opponent with a combo out of my own book, plus around here alot of people make their lists to exploit my armys weaknesses so what can i do

I can probably shock people with a combo of less-used items from the BRB. I have the chaos book, I know the lesser used items from that book about as well as the lesser used items from the BRB.

What kind of stuff are you deploying and what weaknesses are being exploited?

Askari
07-03-2012, 08:43
considering i am not the best general and i don't win often because i cant write my lists for my WoC properly then yes i do like to shock my opponent with a combo out of my own book, plus around here alot of people make their lists to exploit my armys weaknesses so what can i do

Learn to use them better, I mean seriously what if you come up against an opponent, such as like myself, who just reads every army book because he can. You can't surprise him, so you'll have to rely on tactics and outplaying to win. You're just setting yourself up for a fall, rather than losing and learning from it.


This is blatantly untrue. Each 6th and 7th edition book has at least a dozen items that are useful and nothing like the new common magic item list.

Thank you for proving my point, only a dozen or so out of 50-80ish items were in any way unique and useful. Hence the purpose of the common magic items list, to hold those that aren't unique, but possibly useful. Go look through the Empire army book and find what items you can recreate with the common items now, it's a LOT- ASF Sword, +2S Sword, Sword that wounds on x, 5+ Ward, 4+ Ward, MR1, Good armour that cannot be improved, re-roll armour saves, Shield of ignore first hit, etc.

Kayosiv
07-03-2012, 11:21
At least a dozen =/= a dozen or so. Only a dozen or so out of the common magic items are in any way useful. The problem is that when there's only a dozen items total in an armybook they all need to be worth taking, but GW is still making terrible items. Even when they don't have to balance 100 of them and can focus on 10-20, the vast majority are still bad.

The idea of a dozen unique items per army and a host of 50+ common magic items to defeat redundancy is great. It's not happening in practice though!

Just flipping through the lizardmen book, I counted 20 items that I would consider useful and priced fairly enough to use in competitive builds. This isn't even counting banners or Slann Disciplines.

Stuff is being lost. Cool, flavorful, and tactical stuff. The Orc's and goblins 7th edition book had some wonderfully useful and flavorful items in it that nothing in the BsB has a reproduction of.

While I agree that most armies do not "need" more than a dozen items or so, they ones that are in the books better range from decent to amazing. As long as this continues to happen, I can't say I think a common magic item list is a good idea.

theunwantedbeing
07-03-2012, 11:33
Don't like it myself, tired of seeing the same items in every army.
How can this be an issue when everyone takes the same common items anyway?


Adding in 4 pages of magic items means that 4 pages of something else gets cut, like concise rules or good fluff. It also keeps down the repeating of magic item properties in the books themselves, like I said before.
But the books are bigger now....and we saved some space by moving the common items to the rulebook.

There is no excuse for less magical items beyond GW couldn't be bothered to write more items.

Moses
07-03-2012, 12:33
I very much like the idea of heaps of common magic items and much less race specific items. I'd rather know what my opponent can take (and for him to know what I can take) than to be completely confused. But I feel it's the execution that has let GW down. If there are only going to be a few race specific items I want most of them to be worth taking.

Enigmatik1
07-03-2012, 14:30
I very much like the idea of heaps of common magic items and much less race specific items. I'd rather know what my opponent can take (and for him to know what I can take) than to be completely confused. But I feel it's the execution that has let GW down. If there are only going to be a few race specific items I want most of them to be worth taking.

I'm with Moses on this one. There are three items in the TK book that I personally consider "worth fielding" : The Golden Death Mask of Kharnut, Enkhil's Kanopi and the Blade of Antarhak. Now let's look at what I used to consider taking:

Spear of Antarhak
Flail of Skulls
Scorpion Armor
Armor of the Ages
Collar of Shapesh
Crown of Kings
Chariot of Fire
Vambraces of the Sun
Staff of Ravening
Enkhil's Kanopi
Cloak of the Dunes
Staff of Ravening
Neferra's Plaques of Mighty Incantations
Mirage Standard
Standard of the Cursing Word
Icon of Rakaph

The previous item system simply provided a wider variety of options but it is definitely worth mentioning that I did not have access to any of the dirt cheap/stupidly overpowered items of 7th edition books.

DareX2
07-03-2012, 15:05
I think the common magic items make common sense. They provide players with a wealth of simple but effective options, many of which were already found scattered across multiple army books. If every book has an item that gives just a 5++ save, why not consolidate that into the main book rather than repeating it in every army book? I also don't understand why everything in every army always has to be 100% unique.

I like that each army book gets a set of specialty items. These items add features beyond simple stat additions, saves, etc. Where common items are simple, army book items are extravagant, and I like that presentation. I do wish they were consistently better across the board, though.


its just a ploy to make more money because they wanted to boost sales.

Could you explain how consolidating magic items into a book you had to buy anyway is a means of boosting sales?

BigbyWolf
07-03-2012, 15:25
VC have twice as many items plus powers than O&G do. How is that balanced?

In a few more books, armies will have a full complement of magic items and we'll be right back to where we were before, unless you are O&G or TK and stuck with a page of almost universally useless army book items.

Not Balanced. GW have to stop screwing over a couple of armies every single edition.

Surely you can't be serious? Screwing over? OnG & TK are far better in this edition than they were in the previous one. They may have had a sparkly list of magic items in 7th, but the army was awful. If you want to go back to that, more power to you.

Although if memory serves, you were equally depressed with the Greenskins in 7th edition.

EDIT- And for the record, I like the ones in the new OnG book, and use them quite often, with t he exception of 1 or 2.

Phazael
07-03-2012, 15:33
TK are still pretty horrendous. The only thing they really gained was the Golden Mask thing, Sphinxes, and Snake Riders. Of those three, only the Snake Riders tend to be an auto include for most people.

Charistoph
07-03-2012, 15:56
The Common Magic Item list, in and of itself, is a great idea.

The implementation AFTER that is what is broken. They did not regulate the pricing of classic Common Items across the army books, so older books still may have to pay more for those. They started gutting the Unique Army Magic Item List. Those two things are bad, but have little bearing on the Poll's question, and can easily be reversed.

Feefait
07-03-2012, 16:00
Lighten up. The game began with a list of common magic itemace spsciific items but there it nrs and it was great. Then a lot of them became 'race specific'. I like race specific items, sure but there is no reason to think Empire and Lizardmen couldn't have similar functioning items. deal with it.

Bigman
07-03-2012, 16:40
The original poll is asking the wrong question. I don't think the majority of players mind having a list of common items.

The real poll ( that someone should put up, then have it emailed to GW, is as follows:

Q:- do you feel the army specific magic items in 8th edition lack real play testing and the quality is poor throughout?


I feel that question would get a lot more yes votes, as it is the real
Issue.

Empire out soon, I can see what items will go, but what will replace them
Fills Me with dread. I don't want 100 point magic weapons. I don't mind 80 point ones...

The bearded one
07-03-2012, 17:06
The vampire powers and items are quite decent, useful and generally sensibly priced. Ogres not that much, though counting all the bignames and items they have about twice as many as TK and OG, but with only a handful of good ones. There might be 1 or 2 useful bignames, and a couple of items that have already achieved a status as broken (hellheart, greedy fist). Tk and OG appear to be the victims of a new design philosophy (bringing the number down to 8) which failed to produce really useful items while miscosting them horrendously. It seems like GW wanted the items to be less gamebreaking and more pricey in general, and they might have manged to make this a common fact if they hadn't just written a nice list of 80+ items that generally are properly costed.

yabbadabba
07-03-2012, 17:28
The original poll is asking the wrong question. I don't think the majority of players mind having a list of common items.
The real poll ( that someone should put up, then have it emailed to GW, is as follows:
Q:- do you feel the army specific magic items in 8th edition lack real play testing and the quality is poor throughout?
I feel that question would get a lot more yes votes, as it is the real
Issue. On Warseer I think that can be classed as a leading question.

Bigman
07-03-2012, 17:57
On Warseer I think that can be classed as a leading question.

Not my intention at all, so please remove original post if needs be.

I simply felt the point many are discussing is common vs army book MI's, instead of whether we should have common lists at all.

I think it's an interesting debate on this thread, but a little over half the people have voted No.

Having read the posts, many express annoyance at the way GW have handled the army book items.

So my idea was to generate a discussion on the real issue many are raising.

Apologies if it was taken a different way.

Harwammer
07-03-2012, 18:13
I voted No. Part of my reason is different common magic items are better for different armies. Furthermore I always thought it silly how most armies received a 5+ ward. I've used all the 8th books except ogres and I don't think the magic item lists have been a problem for me.

yabbadabba
07-03-2012, 18:20
Not my intention at all, so please remove original post if needs be. It was a tongue in cheek observation.


I simply felt the point many are discussing is common vs army book MI's, instead of whether we should have common lists at all. It is a good point but Warseer is representative of the slightly more extreme ends of the WFB crowd, so that question is likely to polarise more than open debate.

I think it's an interesting debate on this thread, but a little over half the people have voted No. You're not a politician are you? 69% is more than "a little over half"!

Having read the posts, many express annoyance at the way GW have handled the army book items.
So my idea was to generate a discussion on the real issue many are raising. I think you will get that in any thread about GW. If GW gave toy soldiers away free people would complain that GW were trying to break the market and devalue people's collections. There is no pleasing people mate. But saying that, maybe start a poll of your own about it?

Apologies if it was taken a different way. None needed.

The Low King
07-03-2012, 19:04
really, when counting the votes you should put aside the 'neutral' ones.




I simply felt the point many are discussing is common vs army book MI's, instead of whether we should have common lists at all.



I like having the common items. It makes sense that a lot of similar magic weapons exist, whether they are the Axe of Khorne or the Sword of the sands. Only very rarely is an entirely unique magic item going to be forged.

quietus1986
07-03-2012, 19:10
The new system of magic items in BRB has a opening for a magic item expetion book ( with would bring in more money ) and this book could also have army specific items.
For O&G book i mostly use the goblin bos with spider banner and make him join a arrer boys unit of 30 And a small unit night goblin a short bows and a night goblin shaman and hoping in the gift of the spider-god.
bows with poisen on 5+ juist move them and let them schot half the time you auto wound all your hits :D. so yes and mostly a goblin some wear with axe of stunty smaching. I think the O&G magic items allow allot of weird combo's that can hurt. ( goblin hero joins at the side bdw like in the BRB for other footrprint.)
For the vampire counts still thinking of nice combo's.

Spiney Norman
07-03-2012, 22:25
really, when counting the votes you should put aside the 'neutral' ones.

yep, that always bugs me too, I never include a neutral option in a poll I create as it only messes up the stats, if people are genuinely indifferent to the question they can always just not vote. Of course that doesn't bug me as much as the fourth option, which is entirely pointless.

Interesting your point about unique magic items, would you be happy with, for example dwarfs getting access to the common list with a sword of bloodshed representing a runic weapon with 3 runes of +1 attack on it for example?

Lord Inquisitor
07-03-2012, 22:31
No, it seems reasonable. If you're indifferent I'd rather you said so, rather than wondering if any of the positives or negatives are people who feel forced to pick one or the other. It's relevant too, I think, to look at which proportion aren't too bothered by this change one way or another.

Harwammer
08-03-2012, 00:08
I agree with Lord Pinkuisitor. It's important to have options for 1) people with no strong opinion and 2) a strong opinion that differs to the options otherwise presented.

Data data data, can't build bricks without clay innit tho!

Maoriboy007
08-03-2012, 00:25
Tk and OG appear to be the victims of a new design philosophy (bringing the number down to 8) which failed to produce really useful items while miscosting them horrendously.... +1 to this.

Ghremdal
08-03-2012, 00:29
Just to chime in on the OnG items.

1(shrunken head) is good, 3(armor, battleaxe, wand) are ok-ish, and the rest range from bad to just why??

The worst offenders are the banners. They have to be taken on BSBs, meaning that your very very important BSB cannot take any protective gear. The goblin ones can be even replicated easily by spells.

I don't mind the common magic item list, in fact think its great (with a few balance issues). What irks me is that the racial magic items are poorly thought out, and are just not taken, they are easily the worst part of 8th edition.

Manling
08-03-2012, 07:01
Well im seeing two different opinions on this subject seem to break down like:

I love the new common items because that sves me time learning about other armies equipment or i love it because its easier than using the army specific items because it gets confusing\

And the real problem is the crappy items they stick us with in the new books because they are just a steaming pile of untested and useless crap.

As a longtime Empire player i am dreading the new book because of the reduction of great items that are just usefull like Armor of Meteoric Iron, Armor of Tarnus, Van Horstman's speculum. I honestly think the new book will take the Empire down a peg and most likely ill get it for the fluff and stick with Brettonnia.

Cant wait till they screw over Dwarfs with the common magic items

Scythe
08-03-2012, 09:06
I love the new common items because that sves me time learning about other armies equipment or i love it because its easier than using the army specific items because it gets confusing\

Quote please? I've yet to see something that comes close to this reasoning in the 6 pages of this thread. Meanwhile, numerous people have given valid other opinions about why a list of common magic items is a good idea, and the poll indicates most people disagree with your original question. Sticking your head in the sand and making up some arguments doesn't make everything go away.

BigbyWolf
08-03-2012, 12:53
Well im seeing two different opinions on this subject seem to break down like:

I love the new common items because that sves me time learning about other armies equipment or i love it because its easier than using the army specific items because it gets confusing\

And the real problem is the crappy items they stick us with in the new books because they are just a steaming pile of untested and useless crap.

As a longtime Empire player i am dreading the new book because of the reduction of great items that are just usefull like Armor of Meteoric Iron, Armor of Tarnus, Van Horstman's speculum. I honestly think the new book will take the Empire down a peg and most likely ill get it for the fluff and stick with Brettonnia.

Cant wait till they screw over Dwarfs with the common magic items

Chin up, it's the way the game is going. No need to get all teary-eyed over it. Personally, I play 3 of the 4 new books (this edition and previous editions), and although it's a shame they don't have a few more items in each book, it's not the end of the world. The armies themselves are actually so well done, that missing a few itty bitty items doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

If you are relying on a list of magic items to make your army unique, then I would say that you "blow" at this game, not that the game "blows".

Also, please remember that this is a family forum and try to post accordingly and in adult fashion.

DareX2
08-03-2012, 14:00
Well im seeing two different opinions on this subject seem to break down like:

I love the new common items because that sves me time learning about other armies equipment or i love it because its easier than using the army specific items because it gets confusing\

No one said this. If you're interpreting this from the posts in this thread, it's because you're attempting to insert the answers you wanted to hear rather than the answers you were given.


And the real problem is the crappy items they stick us with in the new books because they are just a steaming pile of untested and useless crap.

Somewhat. Some have said that, some have argued that they use some of the supposedly useless items. It's mostly that with only eight items showing in the new books, you would expect them all to offer up new, interesting, fun combos and options.


As a longtime Empire player i am dreading the new book because of the reduction of great items that are just usefull like Armor of Meteoric Iron, Armor of Tarnus, Van Horstman's speculum. I honestly think the new book will take the Empire down a peg and most likely ill get it for the fluff and stick with Brettonnia.

With all the rumours we're hearing about Empire - Wizardmobile, inclusion of more deities, potential war wagon or demi-gryph knights, etc. - you're worried, not excited, and over magic items no less? Most of the items in the Empire book aren't typically worth taking. Armour of Meteoric Iron is because it's cheaper than the BRB version. Armour of Tarnus is negligible. Van Horstmann's Speculum is considered "mandatory" in many Empire player's minds, and I'm a firm believer that no magic item should be an auto-buy. But that's neither here or nor there because we simply don't know what changes will be made to the magic items.


Cant wait till they screw over Dwarfs with the common magic items

Some Dwarf players think they were already screwed over with their inability to take common magic items while everyone else can.

Moses
08-03-2012, 14:03
Chin up, it's the way the game is going. No need to get all teary-eyed over it. Personally, I play 3 of the 4 new books (this edition and previous editions), and although it's a shame they don't have a few more items in each book, it's not the end of the world. The armies themselves are actually so well done, that missing a few itty bitty items doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.

If you are relying on a list of magic items to make your army unique, then I would say that you "blow" at this game, not that the game "blows".

Also, please remember that this is a family forum and try to post accordingly and in adult fashion.

I've got to agree about the quality of the new books. As an Ogre player, I would much rather play with the new book than the old. I miss some of the old magic items, though I always felt dirty about the number of items originally they got compared to other armies

IcedCrow
08-03-2012, 14:47
If one is dependent on magic item combos to win games, one needs to find a new game or learn how to adapt and find other ways to win games. Sorry.

Malorian
08-03-2012, 14:56
I'm just hoping that this common list of magic items also leads to a common list of mounts :D

(My orcs want to ride dragons dang it!)

IcedCrow
08-03-2012, 15:11
I'm just hoping that this common list of magic items also leads to a common list of mounts :D

(My orcs want to ride dragons dang it!)

ah the good old days of 5th edition lol

The bearded one
08-03-2012, 15:21
* imagines a dwarf character on horse *

* immediaely discards the idea *

yabbadabba
08-03-2012, 15:25
* imagines a dwarf character on horse *
* immediaely discards the idea * Skaven Warlock on a Harpy

Corvus Corone
08-03-2012, 15:35
* imagines a dwarf character on horse *

* immediaely discards the idea *

They could have fiersome war-donkeys or something.

Or Dwarvern Shetland cavalry.

Sorry, this is OT.

Dreadlordpaul
08-03-2012, 15:39
I'm just hoping that this common list of magic items also leads to a common list of mounts :D

(My orcs want to ride dragons dang it!)

*imagines chaos lord on a unicorn*

Gorbad Ironclaw
08-03-2012, 16:12
(My orcs want to ride dragons dang it!)

A White Dragon? :D (And make it a Night Goblin)

decker_cky
08-03-2012, 16:13
Doombull on elven steed!

Lord Inquisitor
08-03-2012, 17:08
And the real problem is the crappy items they stick us with in the new books because they are just a steaming pile of untested and useless crap.
Odd, considering most competitive players seem to consider them better balanced than ever before. They seem to be erring on the side of overcosting magic items and special characters but other than that, the internal and external balance is considerably better than any previous edition of warhammer. Particularly 7th.


As a longtime Empire player i am dreading the new book because of the reduction of great items that are just usefull like Armor of Meteoric Iron, Armor of Tarnus, Van Horstman's speculum.
Armour of Meteoric Iron is hideously undercosted. Really is it that different than Armour of Silvered Steel? Other than being better and cheaper of course. Armour of Tarnus? Ooh, wizards can take light armour, stop the press. Obviously Van Horstmann's Speculum is going to be in the new book.

Really, these are the Empire items I see:
- Mace of Helsturm
- Sword of Justice
- Armour of Meteoric Iron
- Rod of Power
- Aldred's Casket of Sorcery (rarely)
- Van Horstmann's Speculum
- Steel Standard (rarely)
- Griffon Standard

That's 8. Runefangs are pretty iconic, although they can actually become an Equipment item rather than a Magic Item, because they're pretty much default for Elector Counts and no-one else should really have them.



* imagines a dwarf character on horse *

* immediaely discards the idea *
Dwarfs on badgers.


Doombull on elven steed!
I got one! Ogre Tyrant on a Mournfang!

... Wait, that would make sense.

yabbadabba
08-03-2012, 17:42
Ogre Tyrant onna Harpy.

Model that one!

Ghremdal
08-03-2012, 17:55
You use the same Tyrant model as before, just do a little bit of brown/red freehand on the base.

Spiney Norman
08-03-2012, 18:43
I'm just hoping that this common list of magic items also leads to a common list of mounts :D

(My orcs want to ride dragons dang it!)

Ahhh yes, I could finally have that Saurus lord on a unicorn that I've always wanted...

Sorry but that is a terrible idea, I'm all for broadening the scope of mount options (for example I'd really like some more hero level characters to get the option to ride monsters), but letting everyone have access to everything would not be good, besides wyverns are nearly dragons.

yabbadabba
08-03-2012, 19:03
Ahhh yes, I could finally have that Saurus lord on a unicorn that I've always wanted...

Sorry but that is a terrible idea, I'm all for broadening the scope of mount options (for example I'd really like some more hero level characters to get the option to ride monsters), but letting everyone have access to everything would not be good, besides wyverns are nearly dragons. Why wouldn't it be a good idea to have a generalised Bestiary with a selection (but not all) mounts?

Enigmatik1
08-03-2012, 19:24
*imagines chaos lord on a unicorn*

I just spit chili all over my monitor and keyboard laughing at a mental picture of this...thanks Paul! :rolleyes: :D

sulla
08-03-2012, 20:19
Why wouldn't it be a good idea to have a generalised Bestiary with a selection (but not all) mounts?Probably for the same reason every army doesn't get cannons.

Dreadlordpaul
08-03-2012, 20:27
I just spit chili all over my monitor and keyboard laughing at a mental picture of this...thanks Paul! :rolleyes: :D

haha your welcome i actually want to make a chaos lord on unicorn now

yabbadabba
08-03-2012, 20:40
Probably for the same reason every army doesn't get cannons. There used to be a general use Bestiary and yet cannons were restricted. So I don't buy that one.

Malorian
08-03-2012, 20:54
Ahhh yes, I could finally have that Saurus lord on a unicorn that I've always wanted...

Sorry but that is a terrible idea, I'm all for broadening the scope of mount options (for example I'd really like some more hero level characters to get the option to ride monsters), but letting everyone have access to everything would not be good, besides wyverns are nearly dragons.

In the play testing I've done it works just fine. (What I've found is that it should be limited to lords.)

Monsters are weak in 8th, and putting your characters on them is overly risky in many situations, so mainly people will do it for fun. Why not let them?


And secondly, comparing the wyvern to a dragon is like comparing an eagle to a varghulf...

The bearded one
08-03-2012, 21:16
Treeman ancient on a squig!

A bouncing tree!



A wyvern is fairly close to a sun dragon by the way.

Von Wibble
08-03-2012, 21:59
You use the same Tyrant model as before, just do a little bit of brown/red freehand on the base.

Or have him holding a drumstick and some parts of wings sticking out of his mouth...

Actually, it isn't even that long since every army counld field a cannon. 6th edition using generic dogs of war as rares iirc?

edit - Centaur on a horse! That's the equivalent of an bretonnian general riding piggy back on a guy with coconuts.

Malorian
08-03-2012, 22:44
A wyvern is fairly close to a sun dragon by the way.

Yes, apart from one less attack, and completely lacking a breath weapon, a wyvern is like the weakest dragon.


Got say though, my warboss loves the stonehorn I put together for him :D

Leogun_91
08-03-2012, 22:55
And secondly, comparing the wyvern to a dragon is like comparing an eagle to a varghulf...Yep, in both cases we have two flying reptiles, one of which is a vampire.

Yes, apart from one less attack, and completely lacking a breath weapon, a wyvern is like the weakest dragon.Poison, or more likely my luck with using wyvern poison, more than makes up for the lost attack though.

Malorian
08-03-2012, 23:09
Poison, or more likely my luck with using wyvern poison, more than makes up for the lost attack though.

Hardly. And what about the 2D6 str 4 breath weapon hits?


My warboss wants a dragon damn it! :D

theunwantedbeing
08-03-2012, 23:14
Hardly. And what about the 2D6 str 4 breath weapon hits?

Strength 4 from a sun dragon?

The bearded one
09-03-2012, 00:09
Strength 4 from a sun dragon?

Their breathweapon is str2, right?

I said he was close to a sundragon, not that he was equal ;)

Manling
09-03-2012, 00:18
No one said this. If you're interpreting this from the posts in this thread, it's because you're attempting to insert the answers you wanted to hear rather than the answers you were given.



Somewhat. Some have said that, some have argued that they use some of the supposedly useless items. It's mostly that with only eight items showing in the new books, you would expect them all to offer up new, interesting, fun combos and options.



With all the rumours we're hearing about Empire - Wizardmobile, inclusion of more deities, potential war wagon or demi-gryph knights, etc. - you're worried, not excited, and over magic items no less? Most of the items in the Empire book aren't typically worth taking. Armour of Meteoric Iron is because it's cheaper than the BRB version. Armour of Tarnus is negligible. Van Horstmann's Speculum is considered "mandatory" in many Empire player's minds, and I'm a firm believer that no magic item should be an auto-buy. But that's neither here or nor there because we simply don't know what changes will be made to the magic items.



Some Dwarf players think they were already screwed over with their inability to take common magic items while everyone else can.

Demigryph knights sound terrible, I already have a Stank so why would need a war wagon? Dieties meh. not really excited because Ulric and Sigmar is all we really need to be flavorful Wizardmobile sounds bad keep our sigmarmobile.

Armor of Tarnus Is amazing consideing i give my wizard a 4+ armor save and durability to use Von Horstmanns. you say no magic item should be an auto buy and yet thats clearly not how the game works. there are items that blow and really Glittering scales with Fencers blades seem to be the auto-take on characters.

Also the point of this thread was to voice an opnion and get feedback while i appreciate your comments i also disagree. And because i question making my charcters survivable and usefull in Close combat doesnt ean i "blow" at he game it just means i know how to get the best bang for my buck which i havent found to usefull in the common magic items. Like dispell items that are being tossed out. I dont like losing my character who has a ward save to dwellers or pit of shades .

Also Dwarf Deamon Slayer on a Unicorn FTW

The bearded one
09-03-2012, 00:47
Demigryph knights sound terrible, I already have a Stank so why would need a war wagon? Dieties meh. not really excited because Ulric and Sigmar is all we really need to be flavorful Wizardmobile sounds bad keep our sigmarmobile.

What is wrong with new flavourful options based on preexisting background? The war wagon is an old empire options from earlier editions. Ulric is pretty poorly represented in the current empire book. You've got the knights of the white wolf and there might be 2-3 magic items referring to Ulric in their description, but apart from that Sigmar pretty much has a monopoly throughout the book.


Like dispell items that are being tossed out. I dont like losing my character who has a ward save to dwellers or pit of shades.

What dispel items are being tossed out? If anything there are a lot more now in the BRB, where the scroll still is. And if a scroll won't work against a casting of dwellers or pit of shades (btw, pit of shades uses a template, and according to the FAQ you get a look out sir against that), then it's probably an IF'ed casting so you couldn't do anything anyway.

DareX2
09-03-2012, 00:54
Glittering scales with Fencers blades seem to be the auto-take on characters.


havent found to usefull in the common magic items.

Just pointing out that you used a magic item combo from the common items that you consider a common "must." I find there are plenty of extremely useful items in the common magic items for many armies, such as the ASF sword, Potion of Strength, Crown of Command, Standard of Discipline, The Other Trickster's Shard, etc. I'm truly surprised you're not a fan of them.

Geep
09-03-2012, 01:19
I find the concept of a large generic item list fine, and the execution isn't bad. It's missing a few things, like the complete lack of ranged magic weapons (I'm curious to see how this will affect the next Wood Elves book). If it's a choice of the current style but relatively balanced vs. the old style where balance was often questionable then I like the current style.

I do think that 8 or so army-unique items is too few, especially since so many 'classic' items disappeared (or at least it seems that way to me for O&Gs). I'm especially disappointed that two of the O&G banners are just two of their spells in magic item form.

I also dislike how this reduces an army's magic item themes- for example, Orcs and Goblins can now get a good save easily. It used to be that the magic weapon section for this army was extensive, but magic armour had only two fairly average entries. Play-wise I like the added armour options, but the theme was good and characterful. This is similar for Wood Elves where a generic ward save was hard to come by- they always had a 'catch' (and until updated their army book items still do). I always found the idea of a 'catch' to their powers very appropriate for the sneaky, child-stealing fey.

Edit:
I also used to really like the generic monsters list that every one could choose from. It led to silly and sometimes painfully broken things, but it was still fun to watch all types of beasts battle it out. I like this aspect of Storm of Magic, but it misses the swarms.

SanDiegoSurrealist
09-03-2012, 01:27
I mean really we are pushing little army men around on a grass matted tabletop; I find it funny to stop the imagination train at with both armies having flaming swords.

It is said somewhere in the book that the common magic items are just meant to represent similar items that are found in the armory of every race. Therefore, I find it perfectly acceptable that all races have a flaming sword, a magic talisman of protection, and a magic suit of armor that makes them harder to hit.

It also saves all the game time that is lost asking your opponent “Can I take a look at your book so I read the item for myself and make sure you are not forgetting to tell me I get a save against it.”

just my $.02

The Low King
09-03-2012, 02:21
I had an Alter kindred Woodelf charcter recently who had the Obsidian blade, Glittering scales and Fibulwinter shard.

He became the 'Lord of Winter' armed with Armour of ice, 'Winters Kiss' and the Essence of Winter. I had just finished reading one of the Game of Thrones series books at the time. :D

DareX2
09-03-2012, 02:47
I had an Alter kindred Woodelf charcter recently who had the Obsidian blade, Glittering scales and Fibulwinter shard.

He became the 'Lord of Winter' armed with Armour of ice, 'Winters Kiss' and the Essence of Winter. I had just finished reading one of the Game of Thrones series books at the time. :D

And it's this kind of thing that makes Warhammer so awesome!

Manling
09-03-2012, 07:24
What is wrong with new flavourful options based on preexisting background? The war wagon is an old empire options from earlier editions. Ulric is pretty poorly represented in the current empire book. You've got the knights of the white wolf and there might be 2-3 magic items referring to Ulric in their description, but apart from that Sigmar pretty much has a monopoly throughout the book.



What dispel items are being tossed out? If anything there are a lot more now in the BRB, where the scroll still is. And if a scroll won't work against a casting of dwellers or pit of shades (btw, pit of shades uses a template, and according to the FAQ you get a look out sir against that), then it's probably an IF'ed casting so you couldn't do anything anyway.

there's only really one dispell item and ironicly its calld a dispell Scroll :P
All the other scrolls work AFTER the spell resolves and therefore not dispell items. Again only one Dispell item where as in my current book i get the scroll and a scroll that has the potential to mindwipe the spell from the wizard. IF has always been well poop you get your spell.

Also what's the point of a ward save or magic resist if there are no Saves of any kind allowed spells. they are few but still i dont like how you cant get a save.

Athlan na Dyr
09-03-2012, 07:41
Also Dwarf Deamon Slayer on a Unicorn FTW

Demon Slayer on a Juggernaut

BigbyWolf
09-03-2012, 14:23
Also what's the point of a ward save or magic resist if there are no Saves of any kind allowed spells.

I'm not 100% sure, but I think there are a few things to worry about in Warhammer apart from "spells that don't allow saves". Don't quote me on this, but I think you can hurt people in close combat, I heard a rumour that you can also do it with missle weapons and war machines in the shooting phase. And apparently there are also a lot of spells that you can save against with MR or wards.

As far as I can remember anyway, but it has been a whole two days since I read my book.

Manling
10-03-2012, 02:58
I'm not 100% sure, but I think there are a few things to worry about in Warhammer apart from "spells that don't allow saves". Don't quote me on this, but I think you can hurt people in close combat, I heard a rumour that you can also do it with missle weapons and war machines in the shooting phase. And apparently there are also a lot of spells that you can save against with MR or wards.

As far as I can remember anyway, but it has been a whole two days since I read my book.

I read my books everday good sir and i can tell you that Combat is very biased towards the winner. I believe in a warhammer where everyone has the chance to wound a T10 model even if my model is S1. I even demand the ability to poison a Steamtank. because everyone remebers in WW2 how we poisend the enemy tanks during the invasion of normandy.

also the point being that in combat i get my armor saves and ward saves. But don t quote me on this. ive only been playing since 6th edition so my facts might be wrong

BigbyWolf
10-03-2012, 10:46
I read my books everday good sir and i can tell you that Combat is very biased towards the winner. I believe in a warhammer where everyone has the chance to wound a T10 model even if my model is S1. I even demand the ability to poison a Steamtank. because everyone remebers in WW2 how we poisend the enemy tanks during the invasion of normandy.

also the point being that in combat i get my armor saves and ward saves. But don t quote me on this. ive only been playing since 6th edition so my facts might be wrong

Some good points, to be sure. But very little in relation to anything really being discussed here. You asked what point there was to ward saves and magic resistance. I didn't mention anything about tanks. :confused:

Lorcryst
10-03-2012, 10:59
<snip> I believe in a warhammer where everyone has the chance to wound a T10 model even if my model is S1.<snip>

Errr, you know that in 8th ed, you can always wound on 6, even with St1 vs To10 ?

Also, WW2 has nothing to do in Warhammer FANTASY Battles ...

Manling
11-03-2012, 08:48
Errr, you know that in 8th ed, you can always wound on 6, even with St1 vs To10 ?

Also, WW2 has nothing to do in Warhammer FANTASY Battles ...

Sarcastic points are sarcastic.
I am also merely suggesting that if Magic resist is supposed to make you RESIST magic whats the point if there are spells that No save for you, or your unit?
this gets me because there are items that grant a decent ward towards magic and if the Lore of life has a no save of anykind spell what was the point in spending the 45 points or so to protect my character.

My Dissatisfaction from the common magic items are that What im paying for is inferior to what i would get were my book not being ruined in a month.
Why would i want the Armor of Silvered steel when i get Armor of meteoric iron for 10pts less.
Again the common items are a good idea but just implemeted at the cost of Racial or even army specific items and i feel they dretract from the feel of being a distinct army.

Bigman
11-03-2012, 11:39
My Dissatisfaction from the common magic items are that What im paying for is inferior to what i would get were my book not being ruined in a month.
Why would i want the Armor of Silvered steel when i get Armor of meteoric iron for 10pts less.
Again the common items are a good idea but just implemeted at the cost of Racial or even army specific items and i feel they dretract from the feel of being a distinct army.

1. I feel that every army should have SOME racial specific items

2. These specific items SHOULD NOT replicate any item in the BRB.


You said it yourself, they're racial specific. It has already been said that the common list is meant to represent the items that EVERY RACE has access to. So that would mean the racial specific items are special not only because they are only available to one race, but because their properties are unique and can't be found elsewhere in any other item.

Eg - armour of Gork. I will hazard a guess that this will be the only armour with the rule set of increasing toughness by D3 and granting D6 impact hits.

As for your point about meteoric iron, it has the same or similar rules as Silvered Steel, so you can still have it, just at more expensive and realistic cost. If the cost bothers you, take full plate and enchanted shield. Works fine on mine.

You are totally allowed your opinion, but I think in a world where the game system is trying to balance magic items for all races which is a good thing to stop Pendant of Khaleth man running around , your expectations aren't really feasible.

Is it annoying that we lose items? - yes

Does the BRB gives us some items that are similar at a more BALANCED cost? - yes

Will we keep our most iconic items in a new empire book? - who knows! Let's wait for the book!


Additionally, it's 20 points more expensive.

Von Wibble
11-03-2012, 11:44
@Manling

I agree with your point on MR but not much else. This comes back to the fact that imo for MR the rules should be that a wizard has to beat the MR of a unit on a d6 in order for any spell he casts (including augments) to affect the unit. The spell does still count as cast.

Example, enemy casts nasty fiery flamy stabby death death (tm) which causes S5 hits on all enemies within 12". The dispel roll is failed. There are 2 enemy units in range. One has MR2. The enemy without MR is hit. The enemy with MR is hit on a 3+.

Onto the stuff I disagree with.

The armour of silvered steel vs AomI thing simply highlights that AoMI is just too good for the points. This, coming from an empire player. AoSS is a fair price considering you get a good armour save and probable great weapon cheaply, and smoe armies get access to saves they otherwise would not have (TK, WE, OK). Giving Empire a 20pts cheaper and better version comes form the fact that it was considered correct in the previous edition and now GW have seen sense.

As to the comment about your book being ruined in a month, does this mean you have previews of all of the rules included and have played a few games to know this to be true? Because I'd say the empirical evidence based on the last few army books released shows empire will become a well balanced army about equal in power to the other 8th edition forces.

Finally, distinct army. If you look at the empire book for magic items you see we can have the sword of power for +2 strength. So, if this item were to go, all we'd have to do is take the ogre blade on a character, call it the sword of power and tell the opponent it counts as a sword of power. Plenty of other items that won't be missed in there too. Apart from runefang (which is pretty terrible anyway), mace of helstrum, hammer of judgement and dragon bow, every weapon has a similar equivalent, and only the mace imo is worth taking out of the rest. Also we have armour of tarnus, for that 6+ save my wizard always wanted, sigil of sigmar, jade amulet, white cloak, holy relic, shroud of magnus, grey wand, wizards staff, AoMI, bronze shield - all can be duplicated from rulebook (and with the exception of AomI, at pretty much the same price). As to magic standards, the steel standard is worth it and thats about it.

Imo, an empire army can get by great with the following items in addition to comon items

Runefang (with a suitable points reduction or changed to equipment for generals only)
Mace of Helstrum
Helm of the ratslayer (improved a bit)
Crimson Amulet
Rod of Power (and a probable points rise is fair)
Laurels of Victory
Aldred's Casket
Silver Horn
Van Horstmann's Speculum
Orb of Thunder
Crystal Ball

We will lose some items, which is why in an earlier post I did say that it wuold be better to have 12 items per book not 8. I listed 11 above and think even some of these are superfluous.

Furball
11-03-2012, 11:54
There are only so many ways a weapon, or piece of armour, can affect the game before you start having to come up with poor rules. Take a weapon, it can make it easier to hit, make you hit harder, add more wounds or remove saves. Yes, you could do a combination and add other rules - but in simple terms there is a limited pool. Personally, I think it is better to have these common ideas in the rulebook and make the few that are in the armybooks actually special and different to everyone else. That way, the game is easier to balance and all armies have a few personal sprinkles. If a sword is a +2 strength - does it matter if it is called the Sword of Justice, the Orge Blade or the Sharpened Stick of Doom!

logan054
11-03-2012, 14:47
i agree with you tbh the only new common magic item i use is the talisman of presevation. I mean as a WoC player why use the asf sword when i can get a enchanted item at the same cost which also gives me asf and enables me to take a magic weapon as well. For that same reason why would i take the wizarding hat which will take all of my lords magic item points when i can take the book of secrets. Also why take the +3 attacks or +3 strength sword when i can take the demon sword

Sword of swift slaying is fine on WoC characters, sure you can't combine it with a halberd but then again you can combine it with a shield, you already have strength 5 and don't suffer from stupidity, I would be tempted to use a wizards hat on a Khorne lord just becaue it silly, I wouldn't use the book of secrets, can't channel and if you miscast its always going to be one of the worse results, I would never use a daemon sword, your just going to end up killing you own 400pts character.

I don't see the issue with the common magic items, as others have said, it saves you reprinting the same item over and over again trying to think up new fluffy names for basically the same item, I don't think the game should be around magic items being unique, it should be about the units, characters and special rules separating the armies.


@Manling

I agree with your point on MR but not much else. This comes back to the fact that imo for MR the rules should be that a wizard has to beat the MR of a unit on a d6 in order for any spell he casts (including augments) to affect the unit. The spell does still count as cast.

I actually think the previous MR rules would have been a lot better this edition

yabbadabba
11-03-2012, 14:50
Its definitely a return to the old magic item system. Maybe in comparison this version has proved the less cumbersome?

Von Wibble
11-03-2012, 19:28
I actually think the previous MR rules would have been a lot better this edition

My problem with 7th ed MR can be summed up with an analogy that its a bit like suncream. If I go into the sun wearing suncream but my friends put on cooking oil, they will burn and I won't. My suncream does not protect them. And in warhammer, 1 unit with MR should not protect all of the army from an AOE spell.

That said, I'd rather have that problem with MR than the current one (ie its virtually useless), so yes, I agree with you.