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View Full Version : Magic-heavy Armies, Part II: Which to Choose / Advice, Bitte!



Twisted Ferret
07-03-2012, 02:38
[Thanks to everyone who debated and posted in my last thread about this. We have some extraordinarily knowledgeable folks here. :)] So I've narrowed down the armies I want to play to the following list; the deciding factors will simply be:


a.) Which two of the following armies could have the most effective magic phase? (Emphasis on offensive magic, especially.)

By "could have", I mean if the army list is built around making it as effective as possible in the magic phase (i.e., if Army A usually has better magic than Army B, but Army B could have a stronger magic phase if someone were to build the right list, I'd want to go for Army B)... it's not a reference to the kindness (or lack thereof) of the dice!

b.) Which two of the following armies could have the most powerful single caster, not including special characters?

I'm thinking, for example, of Warriors of Chaos versus Skaven: the Skaven might (or might not) have a better time of it in the magic phase as a whole, but a Chaos Sorcerer Lord is probably more mighty than any individual caster the Skaven can field. I'm also thinking in terms of sheer casting ability, rather than CC ability or anything like that, though survivability is important.


Armies:

Vampire Counts
Empire
Warriors of Chaos
Tomb Kings
Skaven


I also have to take sulla's advice here and consider which (two) of the five armies listed has (have) the most interesting magic phase. I hear Warriors (and Skaven?) nearly always do the exact same thing in their magic phase, to get the most use out of it... so not much opportunity for tactical skullduggery there. Opinions on this?

Feel free to rank all five armies, of course. :D

***

(If I want magic, why no Elves or Lizardmen, you ask? They did emerge as the clear winners in my last thread. Well, the answer is that I'm deciding between DE and HE, due to that thread... but I want to play a human - or once-human - force too, 'cause I'm a Human Supremacist :chrome:, and I intended to collect at least two armies anyway. So why do I have Skaven here? ...'cause I like their war machines, dammit! :p)

Warrior of Chaos
07-03-2012, 03:47
1. Warriors of Chaos / Skaven
2. Empire
3. Vampire Counts / Tomb Kings


a.) Which two of the following armies could have the most effective magic phase? (Emphasis on offensive magic, especially.)

b.) Which two of the following armies could have the most powerful single caster, not including special characters?

a. WoC, Skaven and Empire I think would have the best offensive magic phase.
b. WoC and Vampires could have probably the single most powerful caster (tooled out vamp) - honorable mention to the Grey Seer of the Skaven though.

I think you would get good survivability with Vamps (vamps not necromancers) and WoC. My perception are that the other armies listed tend to have caster's that are a bit squishy. There are a lot of people who play WoC the same way over and over again, so you hear about these boring magic phases (cough...cough....Tzeench/Gateway). You have access to a bunch of great lores with WoC + the chaos god specific lores. I think they are quite versatile. If you choose to play them the same boring way....that is the player's fault not the army (this goes for Skaven too...Seer/13th spam).

Tayrod
07-03-2012, 08:57
The reason I think the WOC magic phase is percieved as bland is because a flying disc and a 3+ ward on your caster lord is great - and the only way to get the 3+ ward is to equip your charachter with the lmark of tzeentch - thus forcing him to take the lore of tzeentch. Sure the lore is good, but using the same lore all the time can be a bit boring. However, if you throw the Third eye of Tzeentch on him, he can steal the opponents spells, so this will bring in ALOT of flexibility.

Also: The chaos arcane items are wonderful, puppet twice so.

Akkaryn
07-03-2012, 12:26
I agree a tzeentch lord in my eyes is the greatest of all casters.

Hard to kill still packs a punch in combat. Potential to fly around. Low casting spells that can cause havoc. 50/50 chance to get treason off on 1 dice is crazy.

Arcane items available are fantastic too. I personally prefer blood to the puppet.

sulla
07-03-2012, 18:51
If, like me, you might get bored with playing the same thing every week, Empire or Skaven would be the best options IMO. Both have armies with a huge variety of units that can support your magic-heavy list and change your playstyle slightly each week. Empire also has a huge variety of lores to choose from, while skaven have a huge variety of spells for the grey seer meaning no two weeks need give you similar spells.

WoC if you don't mind similarity each phase and week. Very powerful but quite straightforward as an army based on different colours of kill.

If I were looking for a powerful magic-based army, I probably wouldn't look at the undead. As my longtime undead playing friend says, most of your magic goes towards making your army as good as your opponents, reducing the amount of magic you have for doing the things other magic-heavy armies might do.

w7west
07-03-2012, 21:03
You missed the biggest magic hitters in the game:

Lizardmen (#1)
Dark Elves (#2)

A slaan with rumination and a dark elf lvl 4 with sac dagger are completely over the top in the magic phase. Also both of these armies have infantry that benefit greatly from heavy magic (light for lizards/shadow for dark elves).

DragonArmy
07-03-2012, 22:47
You missed the biggest magic hitters in the game:

Lizardmen (#1)
Dark Elves (#2)

A slaan with rumination and a dark elf lvl 4 with sac dagger are completely over the top in the magic phase. Also both of these armies have infantry that benefit greatly from heavy magic (light for lizards/shadow for dark elves).

you didn't read the full thread:)

bluemage
07-03-2012, 23:07
Skaven and WoC would be the top two. However skaven would have the sneakiness you're looking for and have more variety in what to cast that you'd be looking for. WoC are also rumored to be getting a new book some time this year so that might sway your opinion one way or the other.

enygma7
07-03-2012, 23:24
Not responding to your questions as such. I posted in your previous thread and advised against skaven on the grounds their magic phase is a bit... dull. Part of this is that I don't find plague to be a very good lore most of the time because of its super short ranged spells - which makes it unattractive on a grey seer who I generally have lurking behind the lines in a unit of slaves. If you do decide to go with them you can liven things up with a vermin lord. He may not be the most competetive choice (very vulnerable to war machines - storm banner and supporting gutter runners a must) but he does make an ideal candidate for lore of plague because he can use his very fast movement and ability to move free of a unit to really get the most out of all the spells - which can actually be a fairly interesting lore once the range problem is overcome and the lesser spells seem less situational than lore of ruin.

Having said that, I'd still recommend either empire, WoC or vampires from your list for the variety of lores they offer. Vampires are also interesting because their army is based off magic which plays a vital supporting role as well as an offensive one (doesn't necessarily make them most powerful though).

Twisted Ferret
08-03-2012, 19:11
Thanks again for all the responses, y'all. :) Extremely helpful. A++, would ask again.

So it's looking like Tomb Kings are out for sure; I'm also turning against Empire, because it appears that everyone who has mentioned them ranks either Skaven or VC as being just as interesting, plus WoC and Skaven as being more powerful MP-wise. On the other hand, we have a few people disagreeing as to the variety of spell options for Skaven and WoC, and the fact that VC base their entire strategy around the best kind of magic (necromancy) (even if they're not quite as good with magic offense) is really tempting for me.

So... three-way tie between WoC, Skaven, and VC at the moment. :p While I'm falling in love with the VC theme (reanimation! necromancy! skeletons and zombies! RISE UP, MY CHILDREN!), their total lack of artillery and other ranged options (right?) plus their consistent last-place magic powah ranking in this thread is turning me against them too... I might have to forget about the elves entirely and just pick two armies from this thread, come to think of it. My heart's not really in the pointy-ears background, though the shooty and magic-y style of High Elves is so, so tempting in gameplay terms.

I think it will probably come down to which army looks coolest in terms of models, between Skaven and WoC. :) To Google!

Balerion
08-03-2012, 20:09
I think Vampires could potentially have the most interesting magic phase, given that they combine the same stuff everyone else does (offensive magic, buffs and debuffs) with the unique mechanic of raising models. However, there's a potential trap to fall into there, because with the right army build your magic phase can become all about spamming Invocation (your model-regenerating spell) and turn your magic phase from one of the most-varied to one of the least.

edit: I also find my Skaven magic phases interesting because of the Bell and Skitterleaping hijinks, although once again it comes down to the having the willpower not to just cast Wither and D13th over and over.

sulla
08-03-2012, 20:28
So... three-way tie between WoC, Skaven, and VC at the moment. :p While I'm falling in love with the VC theme (reanimation! necromancy! skeletons and zombies! RISE UP, MY CHILDREN!), their total lack of artillery and other ranged options (right?) plus their consistent last-place magic powah ranking in this thread is turning me against them too... I might have to forget about the elves entirely and just pick two armies from this thread, come to think of it. My heart's not really in the pointy-ears background, though the shooty and magic-y style of High Elves is so, so tempting in gameplay terms.

I think it will probably come down to which army looks coolest in terms of models, between Skaven and WoC. :) To Google!VC don't have 'wholesale slaughter' shooting, but they do have some very good point elimination stuff in the form of terrorgeists and general minor damage in the form of banshees and mortis engines, plus they have a very versatile armylist;one of the best of the 8th edition books for variety.

WoC do have that massed destruction shooting in the form of double hellcannons, as do Skaven with their fire throwers.

At the end of the day, with no clear winner in sight for you, I would definately go for the army with the most appealing models to you. And the good news is, all 3 have a great range of models right now. Have fun!

Personally, I think if you want a really powerful magic-heavy army, you need to pick on that doesn't need magic at all to win, and that sums up your last 2 choices very well; you could build a magic lite army and do just fine with either, where it's a far more uphill battle with, say elves, to do the same. I think you'll do just fine with any of the armies on your shortlist.

(Oh, also check out Storm of Magic; an even more magically thmed way of playing warhammer. :) )

kargie
08-03-2012, 20:33
Tomb Kings can actually have a quite effective magic phase. They have one of the strongest spellcasters in the game (Arkhan--he's level 5. And if you go that route he's the only way to have a non-nehekaran hierophant, so you can leave those spells to lv 2's etc).

With casket and hierotitan, the spells have a pretty good chance of going off.

Are they as reliable as they were before the new book? No, and the lore of nehekara doesn't pack as much of a punch as the vampires, but overall I find that I get more spells off with TK than with my Daemon or Empire armies, and to greater effect, especially since if you have the casket your opponent will often save their dispell dice for it.

Manling
09-03-2012, 00:41
Wait unitl the new Empire book comes out to better appraise your options but Empire has a better total package when it comes to warmachines. Also our warmachines are reliable when compared to skaven.

if you want warmachines and great magic that shut out the opponent Dwarfs are also viable but our offensive magic happens in the shooting phase so they cant dispell your effects