PDA

View Full Version : Next FAQ-? What do you want to see??



TsukeFox
07-03-2012, 04:47
Of course whether or not vamp lore magic can heal characters.

Ammendment - increase the cost of Miasma or better yet switching it with Shadow steed making shadow steed the signature spell and make miasma a spell one has to roll for.

Ammendment- Skillrazer increases to cast 20-22+

Ammendment-Lore attritbutes for Lore of Ruin, Plague, & whatever Beastman magic is-after all they were the last books updated in 7th so we should not expect a new book anytime this editon.

Clarification on the 1 inch rule.
Clarification on lore of shadow lore attribute.

Most of all clarification on whether or not "open ground" is terrain in terms of Curse of Anrehier & does it effect night goblin fanatics

decker_cky
07-03-2012, 05:00
I want them to reverse the standard of discipline FAQ to not raise the general's Ld bubble.

Clarifying curse of anraheir would be nice too.

Rosstifer
07-03-2012, 05:01
Amendment - Dreaded 13th Spell 3d6 models instead of 4d6.

Amendment - Mindrazor's strength only applies when rolling to wound, so doesn't affect Armour Saves.

Both will never happen but would be very good for the game.

I agree with the Open Ground one, that needs to be sorted. Though it does clearly say in the BRB it is terrain.

TsukeFox
07-03-2012, 05:21
I want them to reverse the standard of discipline FAQ to not raise the general's Ld bubble.

Clarifying curse of anraheir would be nice too.

Oh yeah forgot about the stupid banner-ya that thing can get raised up to 30+ points.
Stubborn crown-50 points.

TsukeFox
07-03-2012, 05:24
Amendment - Dreaded 13th Spell 3d6 models instead of 4d6.

Amendment - Mindrazor's strength only applies when rolling to wound, so doesn't affect Armour Saves.

Both will never happen but would be very good for the game.

I agree with the Open Ground one, that needs to be sorted. Though it does clearly say in the BRB it is terrain.

Right it clearly says it- had a dude tell me terrain was only the pieces the player puts down.

But if open ground is terrain night goblin fanatics must be able to pass through it, Ammendment or FAQ must address it.

Ratbeast
07-03-2012, 05:31
I want them to reverse the standard of discipline FAQ to not raise the general's Ld bubble.

Clarifying curse of anraheir would be nice too.

page of FAQ its on?

Maoriboy007
07-03-2012, 06:09
Oh yeah forgot about the stupid banner-ya that thing can get raised up to 30+ points.
Stubborn crown-50 points.
Agree on the crown
VC lore attribte, heal one sound on any model in range incl. any characters. Generally this is already indicated by separating the attribute and raising warriors rules, but clarification is nice.
Raising dead warriors rule clarify should heal only a single wound on vampire , ethereal models or units.
Warshrines grant bonus' lasts until next chaos shooting phase
Gateway 11+ causes 2d6+6 str 10 hits
Doom spells allow ward saves and cause d6 wounds
Tk : undead can march in 6" of king or prince, all flying models can march. Remove single wound restriction for healing constructs per turn, Amend ebts to allow charge on a hit with scatter
Ogres : no deathfist. Hellheart 55 points.
All Large monsters should get scaly skin save

Djekar
07-03-2012, 06:14
Biggest thing I'd like to see is the Standard of Discipline reversal ruling. I've been sore about that one since it came out.

A change in Mindrazor to be what it says in the book would be cheery - that is, no affecting armor saves.

I'd also like clarification on the Curse of Anraheir and the Mark of Khorne on Chaos Knights/Chariots as well.

As for what I expect to see: another change on the Mark of Nurgle. Seriously, we're on incarnation what, 8, by now?

someone2040
07-03-2012, 07:14
So most of these aren't really FAQ or Errata... just balance change.

I'd like to see:
Clarification about Curse of Anraheir open ground. It should, and rulebook supports it, but just clarify to make sure.
Clarification around spells in old books and targetting restrictions. My point of view is they should be bound by the normal targetting restrictions unless otherwise specified. Dreaded 13th into combat wasn't intended in 7th ed by the 7th ed rules, so why should it happen in 8th ed.
Wouldn't mind seeing a reversal on discipline or rather, inspiring presence should be unmodified leadership instead. Put leading back into the fighty character rather than taking wizards and buffing him up to decent leadership.

Kudzu
07-03-2012, 07:25
Actual FAQ questions:
Can characters join Skrox now that they are considered unique units (also applies to other unique units)? The wording on P.97 could go either way.
Curse ruled on. Should be "yes" for open ground but it would be nice to have conformation.

Balancing:
BSB equipment options fixed for older books.

Corvus Corone
07-03-2012, 08:00
Which camp is right on the VC scream attacks, those who say it can target units in combat if the user is not in that combat or those who say it can't?

With IoN, which camp is right, those who use the model interpretation tos ay you can raise 4 (or more) blood knights or those who say you can't?

Clarification on the VC general choosing (is it the highest LD wizard using lore of vampires or is that your highest LD character who is a wizard must be the general and therefore take lore of vampries?).

There's more from the VC book but those are the big three.

jtrowell
07-03-2012, 08:59
If we're talking about erratas, the VC has finally realized/confirmed that the spear + shield combo is no more powerful on chaff that HW+shield and should cost the same.

Good for Vampire counts armies, but it would be good if Tomb king skeletons could get the same and not have to pay 1 full point to replace their HW with shields.

Tiomat
07-03-2012, 12:16
I'd like a faq on how the Skaven Plague Furnace special attacks works in a challenge (Wrecker and Fog).

Moses
07-03-2012, 12:37
I would also like ward saves on doom spells, or at least magic resistance saves.

I also want a clarification on how the Ogre's Hellheart interacts with Cupped Hands of the Old Ones and other such items. That's the most important ruling for me.

Gazak Blacktoof
07-03-2012, 12:40
Most of the above are great suggestions. I'd also like to this the following:



Cannons. In the rulebook, replace the first paragraph of the “Choose Target” section with the following


“Nominate a model visible to the war machine as the intended target of the cannon shot. Now nominate an aiming spot visible to the cannon, somewhere between it and the intended target. The aiming spot must either be an enemy model or point on the ground and must be within the cannon’s maximum range. Remember that war machines are allowed to pivot in the Shooting phase, the better to bring your chosen target into the weapon’s line of sight.”

LegioIgnatum
07-03-2012, 13:24
DE,LM,HE,TK player here

General
-Standard of discipline 25pt, does not affect inspiring presence
-Crown of command 55pts
-Hatred must pursue fleeing enemy (not overrun though)
-Mind razor doesnt affect armor saves (modified by original strength)
-Curse of Anrahir includes open ground like the TK spell
-Random movement can only charge frontal arc (will curb down Abom and doomwheel) but can move any direction (might be bad for spawn and/or squig hoppers but who uses these anyway)
- Fleeing units give %25 percent of points in the end
- Watchtower, who holds it gains extra 500/1000pts (not sure) at the end of the game.

Ogres
- Hellheart 55pts
- Iron fist not an armor (retarted 2+ save 5w caster lords is lame)

TK
- Constructs heal 1 W per spell not per turn.
- Lore attribute affected by the movement spell even if in combat
- Constructs 4+ save (all including the necro knights)

VC
- Lore attribute doesn't affect characters

Empire
- Lore of life doesnt affect steam tank
- Steam tank can always generate 1 steam point safely

Lizardmen
- Cupped hands rolled before miscast is determined
- Cupped hands 55pts
- Salamander/Razordon if missfire with no handlers must do monster reaction check
- Razordon can always Stand and Shoot
- Razordon can stand and shoot with other dice even in 1 result is missfire

DE
- Non elves not affected by hatred (for you mr hydra)
- Hydra 200pts
- Pendant 55pts
- Dagger if roll 1 on extra dice then sorcerrer gets 1 wound (saves allowed) but still adds the 1

Beastmen
- All rares 240pts (shouldn't over do it before testing)
- Ghorgon KB attack like the TK sphinx (nominate 1 attack if kills heal D3 wounds)

Wood Elves
- Not affected by bad effects of forests
- Bows on BSBs automatically

WOC
- Puppet either 1 use only OR only affects enemy models friendly models

DOC
- Gifts are magic weapons (cannot be duplicated)
- Specific line saying Keeper Doesnt regain wounds through Tstomp (makes her unkillable basically)


This are the things I can see immidiately. There obviously might be many more.

Paladin21
07-03-2012, 14:13
All I want to see are either spell types added to the old army book spells (Skaven, et al), or clarification of the spell targeting rules for spells without types. It was bad enough with just the old spells, but then they went and FAQ'd some of the new ones to not have a type as well....

theunwantedbeing
07-03-2012, 14:27
I'de like to see the word regardless get removed from High Elves Speed of Asuryan rule.
Similarly, a reinstatement of the final sentence in the Dark Elves Eternal Hatred rule.

It would of course be nice to see the Armybook lores get given spell types as well as being told whether or not typless spells follow the same basic casting restrictions as spells with a type.

tmarichards
07-03-2012, 14:27
Destroyer able to wounded on a 6 regardless of strength. Anything else is retarded.

ihavetoomuchminis
07-03-2012, 14:32
Agree on the crown
VC lore attribte, heal one sound on any model in range incl. any characters. Generally this is already indicated by separating the attribute and raising warriors rules, but clarification is nice.
Raising dead warriors rule clarify should heal only a single wound on vampire , ethereal models or units.
Warshrines grant bonus' lasts until next chaos shooting phase
Gateway 11+ causes 2d6+6 str 10 hits
Doom spells allow ward saves and cause d6 wounds
Tk : undead can march in 6" of king or prince, all flying models can march. Remove single wound restriction for healing constructs per turn, Amend ebts to allow charge on a hit with scatter
Ogres : no deathfist. Hellheart 55 points.
All Large monsters should get scaly skin save

I love all your suggestions.

I'd like to add:

Clarification on spell types for the old books.

Standard of discipline not affecting the Inspiring presence Leadership.

BSB equipment options fixed for older books.

The first rank doesn't count for Steadfast.

Characters must move as soon as possible to the first rank of their units.

And these, quoted or modified from LegioIgnatum

Watchtower, who holds it gains a 25% of the points of the Battle (at 2000 points battle, the watchtower grants 500 points, p. ex.)

WOC
- Puppet 1 use only

DOC
- Gifts are magic weapons (cannot be duplicated)
- Specific line saying Keeper Doesnt regain wounds through Tstomp (makes her unkillable basically)

DE
- Non elves not affected by hatred (for you mr hydra)
- Hydra 200pts
- Pendant: Only on foot models. roll under the Strenght (instead of equal or under). Can't be combined with armour.

Beastmen:
-Rare monsters 200 points, all of them.
-Ghorgon KB attack is just one of its attacks, and has HKB. Ghorgon 240 points.


TK
- Constructs heal 1 W per spell not per turn.
- Lore attribute affected by the movement spell even if in combat

DaemonReign
07-03-2012, 14:40
Well 9 out of 10 things brought up in this thread are either already covered by the rules very clearly (like everybody knows Open Ground is Terrain and yet people ask for FAQ I don't get it), and then there's loads of these quite unprecedented 'balance-suggestions' which just seem off topic to be honest..
but of course one or two 'actual' candidates that would be good in the Errata/FAQ pop up too.

Being a Daemon Player I'm just gonna comment on the following:



DOC
- Gifts are magic weapons (cannot be duplicated)
- Specific line saying Keeper Doesnt regain wounds through Tstomp (makes her unkillable basically)


Right..
With regards to Gifts becoming 'Magic Weapons' (0-1 Choices) I assume the implicit consequence of your suggestion here is that Daemons also get access to BrB Items.
If 'No' = *facepalm* (well you came to the right place..)
If 'Yes' = There are tons of Magic Items that would be quite problematic if Daemons had access to them. I'm not sure you've thought this one through to be honest.

With regards to Spirit Swallower it absolutely does not 'interact' with ThunderStomp. This is already covered by the present Errata/FAQ.
Daemonic Gifts are Special Rules.
Special Rules never interact with Stomp.

So that one you can cross off your list. :)

Makaber
07-03-2012, 14:51
Have they ever changed the points cost for something in a FAQ/errata, though? Most of these are, in my eyes, far beyond the scope of a PDF document.

The big ones for me are Curse of Anraheir and open ground f(rankly I'm surprised it hasn't been looked at already) and The Standard of Discipline and the General's leadership. The Crown of Command I actually think is fairly okay. Steadfast is already very good, and I fear making the Crown prohibitively expensive would lead to an armsrace where units just got deeper and deeper. Rather like a furthening of the existing Skaven Slaves problem. The Crown allows you to field a small and relatively expensive regiment of mid-tier troops that you'd normally wouldn't take. For example, Bestigors would make no sense if all they'd play against were monstrously deep Steadfast regiments which they couldn't break, or Chaos Warrior analogues they'd have no chance of winning against. The Crown fixes that.

The bearded one
07-03-2012, 15:01
The crown of command doesn't help 'expensive regiments of mid-tier troops' to break steadfast units.

The Low King
07-03-2012, 16:17
Seems to me that what a few people here want is a rules overhaul rather than an FAQ

What i want answered is:

Do scouts count towards the +1 for deploying first?

And an Amendment removing Gyro partials, it being the only thing in the game that as them

decker_cky
07-03-2012, 16:25
Have they ever changed the points cost for something in a FAQ/errata, though? Most of these are, in my eyes, far beyond the scope of a PDF document.

Nothing recent, but there were a number of units completely rewritten (skaven war machines were significantly rewritten, steam tank essentially completely rewritten, flame cannon rewritten, ring of hotek was rewritten, power scroll was rewritten, etc..). Obvious balance issues for armybooks that won't be replaced within 6 months or so should definitely be within the scope of an FAQ, which seems like most of the listed balance issues are addressing.

Not too many wording issues left to be addressed aside from recent books. I think an 8.5 rebalance FAQ would add a lot to the game.

One more thing I don't think I've seen mentioned: Cannons should only hit one part of a multipart model. Pinball cannons really isn't needed for anything, and dragon riders already got balanced by 1 use breath weapons, steadfast, marching flying, etc...

Challenge rules should be fixed to allow all parts of a multipart model to attack/stomp too, allowing you to reasonably cause some overkill with a 500+ point character.

decker_cky
07-03-2012, 16:26
Do scouts count towards the +1 for deploying first?

Good one.


And an Amendment removing Gyro partials, it being the only thing in the game that as them

Some giants fall down and a few other things have partials still. This is no different than any of the other rebalance questions IMO.

BorderKing
07-03-2012, 16:36
I like how people are trying to make Hellheart changes but aren't trying to change the OK suck ass magic weapons. Maybe GW should try and make magic items that are unusable viable before making the ones people do use useless.

AlphariusOmegon20
07-03-2012, 16:45
Have they ever changed the points cost for something in a FAQ/errata, though? Most of these are, in my eyes, far beyond the scope of a PDF document.



They did in 40K for the DA and BT to bring their equipment more in line with other Space marines. Can't think of a time that they've done it in WFB though.

decker_cky
07-03-2012, 16:47
I like how people are trying to make Hellheart changes but aren't trying to change the OK suck ass magic weapons. Maybe GW should try and make magic items that are unusable viable before making the ones people do use useless.

Most important changes are to tone down things that are overpowered and unbalance games (which hellheart can do), and to fix things that are debilitatingly bad (something like beastmen monsters, which are essentially unusable). Every army has some bad magic items, but with common items, it's not even like ogres don't have a great selection of magic items. If you boost the bottom 5-10% and tone down the top 5-10%, you fix all the significant issues with the game.

One change that hasn't been mentioned but I think is worth adding: Skavenslaves do not count as core selections. Force skaven players to use some stormvermin or clanrats (both of which are still very good value).

edit: Also, I think the 6th ed DE errata is the last major fantasy change including points cost. Changed warrior and hydra costs among other things.

Malorian
07-03-2012, 16:51
I want to see things straight up changed as to fix them, like what they did with Thorek.

I want them to straight up change the 4+ ward/stubborn option from the EotG chart to something else, I want them to makes spells like dwellers allow a look out sir roll, and I want disrupting ranks to take away steadfast.

This is what GW really should be doing with their updates, not wasting their time with small RAI loopholes that 98% of gamers play correctly anyway.

The Low King
07-03-2012, 17:38
Some giants fall down and a few other things have partials still. This is no different than any of the other rebalance questions IMO.

Sorry, more what i meant was: A firm yes or no as to whether they actually intend Gyrocopters to keep partials.

RAW they have them but everywhere i go everyone just thinks im silly when i try to say they do.....i actually got a full 'what are you on' look from a Store manager once.



The problem with rules updates is that they require a lot of thought....the FAQ team atm seems to be one guy and his goldfish, if they tried to adjust the hellheart rules and pulled another flame cannon people would be even more unhappy.

TsukeFox
07-03-2012, 17:43
Amen doomsday spells should offer look out sir & dare I say instead of killing outright just do D3 wounds & D6 for powered up versions.
Skillrazer to allow armour saves not to be effected by new strength bonus (normal strength modifiers apply-I like this Ammendment as mentioned in early post.)

The bearded one
07-03-2012, 17:51
the FAQ team atm seems to be one guy and his goldfish

the goldfish at the moment appears to be giving most of the imput * glances at flamecannon errata *



Skillrazer to allow armour saves not to be effected by new strength bonus (normal strength modifiers apply-I like this Ammendment as mentioned in early post.)

sounds like it'd become flaming sword of rhuin on steroids, minus the flaming.

Ghremdal
07-03-2012, 17:55
Wait, I thought Mindrazor's boost to strength didn't affect armor saves...and looking through the errata I don't see anything that would change that. I mean its very clear from the description that S=LD applies only when rolling to wound.

The bearded one
07-03-2012, 18:16
Isn't the description just "unit uses ld as it's strength" ? That simply means the strength stat for all intents and purposes is equal to their ld.


wouldn't it be fun if the spell swaps your str and ld around? So if you manage to lose the round while mindrazored, or you're panicked or whatever, you are gonna have to test on ld3-4 :D

shakedown47
07-03-2012, 18:31
I've seen several people mention Standard of Discipline now, as well as the 1" rule. In regards to the Standard, people seem to want a "reversal" of the FAQ, which I don't get; RAW there is only one way the Standard of Discipline works, it's silly that it was ever a Frequently Asked Question (I'm surprised is was asked even once!) If people don't like the cheap increased Ld bubble that's one thing, but the only way to remedy that would be through an errata; an FAQ should only be able to currently address in the way it already has. As far as "clarification" on the 1" rule, I'm confused about that also. What is unclear?

The two big things I would like to see is a clarification on Curse of Anreheir and lore attributes for older books. We currently play Curse of Anraheir RAW and get along happily enough, but it seems when we play out-of-towners or at tournaments it causes a big scene, and as already mentioned it does have a point of contention when you consider the case of fanatics. Lore attributes for older books are a must IMO, and on a lesser scale I don't see the major harm in adjusting casting costs to reflect the new magic system (Pandaemonium on 8+ and Remains in Play should probably be moved to 10+ for one round or 12+ Remains in Play, for example.)

shakedown47
07-03-2012, 18:39
Correct. I guess I can understand the confusion with people that haven't fully absorbed the spell description and just took the short version away from it that Ld=Str, but it seems to me that should a dispute arise a cursory reading of Okkam's would clear up any doubt. Armor saves taken against wounds caused by Okkam's-augmented troops will only have a negative modifier if they would have normally (i.e. base Str of attacking models plus whatever Str bonuses their weapons may give.) So armor saves against Okkam's-augmented Dark Elf warriors are taken at a -0 armor modifier, unless they for some reason had the armor piercing banner.

Edit: Sorry this should have included a quote from Ghremdal's last post.

Lord Shadowheart
07-03-2012, 18:45
Isn't the description just "unit uses ld as it's strength" ? That simply means the strength stat for all intents and purposes is equal to their ld.


wouldn't it be fun if the spell swaps your str and ld around? So if you manage to lose the round while mindrazored, or you're panicked or whatever, you are gonna have to test on ld3-4 :D


God would I love that :D

Ironcurse Icon to work against skaven weapons teams/ doomrocket, etc.

Do something about stubborn ld10 skavenslaves, maybe something like not allowing them to use general's ld.

Gazak Blacktoof
07-03-2012, 18:47
sounds like it'd become flaming sword of rhuin on steroids, minus the flaming.

A better option might be to have mindrazor count strength as leadership, but also wound against the target's leadership. Armour saves would then be modified by the leadership value used as strength.

It then becomes something different to flaming sword and is worse than its current rules depending on the circumstances.

Kudzu
07-03-2012, 18:52
A better option might be to have mindrazor count strength as leadership, but also wound against the target's leadership. Armour saves would then be modified by the leadership value used as strength.

It then becomes something different to flaming sword and is worse than its current rules depending on the circumstances.

LD vs Ld, no armor saves but MR can be used-- make it more like a psychic attack that the fluff implies.

Harwammer
07-03-2012, 20:12
Remove the equipment restrictions for BSBs in older books.

That's the big one for me.

Edit: and change Favour of the Gods so it can't be used to move the dice roll to a result that would have to be rerolled.

decker_cky
07-03-2012, 20:25
I've seen several people mention Standard of Discipline now, as well as the 1" rule. In regards to the Standard, people seem to want a "reversal" of the FAQ, which I don't get; RAW there is only one way the Standard of Discipline works, it's silly that it was ever a Frequently Asked Question (I'm surprised is was asked even once!) If people don't like the cheap increased Ld bubble that's one thing, but the only way to remedy that would be through an errata; an FAQ should only be able to currently address in the way it already has. As far as "clarification" on the 1" rule, I'm confused about that also. What is unclear?

The two big things I would like to see is a clarification on Curse of Anreheir and lore attributes for older books. We currently play Curse of Anraheir RAW and get along happily enough, but it seems when we play out-of-towners or at tournaments it causes a big scene, and as already mentioned it does have a point of contention when you consider the case of fanatics. Lore attributes for older books are a must IMO, and on a lesser scale I don't see the major harm in adjusting casting costs to reflect the new magic system (Pandaemonium on 8+ and Remains in Play should probably be moved to 10+ for one round or 12+ Remains in Play, for example.)

Standard of discipline is, and was clear. It's terrible for the balance between lord choices, and provides a 50+ point benefit in most cases.

DareX2
07-03-2012, 20:27
I want magic resistance to always offer protection when a spell is forcing a model to take a wound/being removed from play/etc.

decker_cky
07-03-2012, 20:33
I want magic resistance to always offer protection when a spell is forcing a model to take a wound/being removed from play/etc.

I like the idea that MR is added for stat tests you take as well as the protection it currently offers.

shakedown47
07-03-2012, 21:24
Honestly, the thing I would really like to see in a new FAQ is for it to be just that: a party-line answer to the questions we have that just can't be worked out with the RAW, or that function under RAW but just don't seem to make logical sense. The trend has been to use the FAQ as a sort of lazy-man's errata, because sometimes the rulings go directly against the clear and defined and unambiguous wording of a rule. That's what erratas are for; if you want to change the way a rule or item works, it's nearly always going to be necessary to change the wording as well.

But we, the playerbase, aren't totally off the hook here. If many of the questions that are addressed in the FAQs really are submitted by us, our average IQ is much less than I gave us credit for. The standard of discipline is a good case, as I mentioned in an earlier post. The rules for it are very clear in the magic items section, and the rules for highest leadership in a unit and for inspiring presence are also very clear in the BRB. After 8th premiered it took a week or two for someone to put 2 and 2 together and post the combo to the interwebz but the idea of needing to ask GW whether or not it would work is ludicruos! Everything you need to decide for yourself is right in front of you, just look it up and move on.

A good example of the kind of thing I'm talking about can be found several times in the WoC FAQ (the one with which I'm most familiar.) Just three questions in, you've got a case of some ****** trying to get something for nothing by asking if a character has to be the one to inflict the final wound on a large target to earn a roll on the eye of the gods. Of course it does! What in the Eye of the Gods rule led you to believe otherwise? Just four questions later there is yet another idiot question, about whether killing a champion in a challenge earns you a roll on the Eye of the Gods table. Well, pick up the WoC book and read the relevant entry, and you'll quite handily be able to answer your own question without any mental handouts from a GW keyboard jockey. That's just two, and of course there are loads of others and god knows how many more sprinkled through the other FAQs.

I know that was a bit of a rant but it gets on my nerves to no end. Both local players and, it seems, the internet hordes as a whole rabidly await the release of FAQs and while some issues are legitimate, many questions can just be answered with a basic level of literacy and a modicum of common sense. So shame on us for being lazy and shame on GW and us both for confusing the terms "FAQ" and "errata." Items and rules don't get to work other than as described just because you want them to, you know.

Maoriboy007
07-03-2012, 21:38
-Mind razor doesnt affect armor saves (modified by original strength)Another suggestion I've heard is that it only affects a single attack per model at STR 6


--Curse of Anrahir includes open ground like the TK spellDoesn't it already?
.


-Ogres
- Hellheart 55pts
- Iron fist not an armor (retarted 2+ save 5w caster lords is lame)While I hesitate at nerfing an item out of hand, the Hellheart does stand out as stupidly good in its current incarnation. Unfortunately OK players do have a point when they say that the rest of thier items are fairly terrible but still, thats not really a great excuse for it. Its not like Ogres suffer being a lousy army for it.



-TK
- Constructs heal 1 W per spell not per turn.
- Lore attribute affected by the movement spell even if in combat
- Constructs 4+ save (all including the necro knights)Yeah, although I would say that the marching restrictions and inability to heal characters stand out as the greater idiocies of the book. Necroknights are probably fine at a 3+ armour save, otherwise they would need a price drop as well.



-VC
- Lore attribute doesn't affect charactersAs a TK and VC player myself, I generally get the feeling that this a bit of a backlash that TKs don't get to do it themselves as well as leftover anst from 7th Ed' undead haters. Instability being what it is in 8th and the loss of the best items in the book would make me say there isn't anything wrong with the attribute healing characters.At the beginning of 8th TK players complained that VC shouldn't be able to regen or ward save instability instead of asking that TKs should also get the same ability. Both armies got lumped with standard instability and IMO TKs ended up suffering more for it, which is thier own fault really as the Book was written with general complaints of indead in mind without thought to thier weakness'


-Empire
- Lore of life doesnt affect steam tank
- Steam tank can always generate 1 steam point safely If it couldn't benefit from lore of life , it should be equally resistant to other beneficial and harmful spells IMO. Sure it seems silly to "heal" it , but no less that being able to weaken it.
Agree with the steam point, either that or alway generate some steam points regardless of the "misfire/disaster" event. The steamtank isn't that much worse than a dragon in any cases, and has its own share of drawbacks.


-Lizardmen
- Cupped hands rolled before miscast is determined
- Cupped hands 55ptsI'm not sure of the current cost , but really the first change would be the most important.

-

-DE
- Non elves not affected by hatred (for you mr hydra)
-- Dagger if roll 1 on extra dice then sorcerrer gets 1 wound (saves allowed) but still adds the 1Agree with both, athough I think you meen the Sorceress TAKES a wound of damage.



-Beastmen
- All rares 240pts (shouldn't over do it before testing)
- Ghorgon KB attack like the TK sphinx (nominate 1 attack if kills heal D3 wounds)If 240 points is a price drop then probably (although a general scaly skin save would probably be just as good).
As long as the KB isn't still on a 4+ then maybe ok.



-Wood Elves
- Not affected by bad effects of forests
- Bows on BSBs automaticallyAren't they already?



-WOC
- Puppet either 1 use only OR only affects enemy models friendly models Either that or the item is exhasted on a 1 or 2, possibly both. and or a price hike. The item is pretty stupid ATM.

Lord Inquisitor
07-03-2012, 21:55
Doesn't it already?
Technically... but a FAQ would be very nice.
.

While I hesitate at nerfing an item out of hand, the Hellheart does stand out as stupidly good in its current incarnation. Unfortunately OK players do have a point when they say that the rest of thier items are fairly terrible but still, thats not really a great excuse for it. Its not like Ogres suffer being a lousy army for it.
The problem with the hellheart is that it's ogres only real defence against certain spells that they're extremely vulnerable to. Purple sun, for example, or mindrazor. Without it, I certainly wouldn't consider ogres very competitive because they can get raked over the coals by one IF. Now, they aren't the only low-initiative army out there but they are singularly vulnerable to spells like Psun (easy to hit a lot of wounds-worth of models with a single sun). It's also very unpredictable - for every time it has a 30" range there's another where it has a 5" range and typically does nothing for 50 points. I completely get why people don't like it, but simply removing it leaves a gaping hole in the defences of the ogres.


Aren't they already? [Wood elves immune to damage from woods]
They're immune from dangerous terrain but not if the wood decides to give them a wedgie and run off giggling.

Moses
08-03-2012, 06:11
DE,LM,HE,TK player here
Ogres
- Hellheart 55pts
- Iron fist not an armor (retarted 2+ save 5w caster lords is lame)


I think it would make more sense to errata it to remove the Ironfist option from Butchers and Slaughtermasters, rather than ruling it that shields don't count as armour. As an Ogre player I would support removing the option, it would make more sense.

LegioIgnatum
08-03-2012, 11:44
Lets put the point suggestions I have given aside lets look at the other items.

Standard of Discipline - This item alone destroys all combat lords in the game. Everyone complains about combat lords being inneficient in killing etc but the major benefit of the combat lords is the extra pip of LD. This item totally removes that element (which allows combat lords to barely compete with lord level wizards).

Curse of Anrehir - I know open terrain is terrain and I play it that way, however "(treats open ground as terrain)" will immidiately ruin any chances of a db arguing about it, and yes there are still a lot of people who doesn't accept this.

Super Spells - Should definately give lookout to characters. 13th,Dwellers, Gateway would still ruin a deathstars day but none of thse should have the chance of realistically ending the game turn 1, which they do now. If this would affect the game too badly make it so these spells deal D6 wounds to characters rather than instant death so at least lords have 1/3 chance of surviving while heroes would have 1/6 chance of surviving (or D3 wounds but this will make the MI heroes much more survivable so not sure).

Crown of Command - Dunno maybe you guys are right and heroes should be able to take it, but at least make it a talisman so that it cannot be stacked with wardsaves. Heck when I think about it actually this makes more sense as it will eliminate the unkillable char blocking half the army while killing all the characters one by one trick.

Mind Razor - S6 might be a little low, I mean this is the uber spell of shadow and it should be capable of destroying certain units. It is just that it destroys all kind of units is the problem. By allowing armor saves (modified by original strength + weapons) you can counter it with cavalry (1 stone 2 birds more uses for cavalry yay!!!) but monsters and low/medium AS units will still get deleted by it. By allowing armor save it will also increase the survivability of characters against it as well (think of the LOS that most agree should be implemented for Dwellers,13th,Gateway etc.). It is still better than flaming sword as S3 Ld7 (empire,beastmen) wounds T5 or T6 on 2+/3+ rather than 5+ or S3 Ld 8 (DE,HE) wounds T4 on 2+ rather than 4+ etc.

XXX Strider; Unit does not have to take dangerous terrain tests,can always march thorough them and are not affected by negative effects of XXXs. As it stands now you can take out the strider rule and the game will not change one bit.

OGRES
I am not trying to destroy the hellheart, and I am all for Ogres having a defence against purple sun/pit, all I am trying to do is make it so that only lords can take it. Didn't any of you guys face the suicide butcher.
-Lvl 1 Butcher + Hellheart
-Turn 1 march
-Turn 2 Leave unit march towards wizards
- Pop Hellheart
- ??
- Profit.
Heck make it 51pts I don't care but an Ogre player should think whether putting their lord in charge range/danger is worth shutting down a magic phase + chance of killing enemy wizards + ruining units with S10/6 templates.

OR why not let it affect 1 wizard? This way you can shut down the dreaded purple sun user (who is the most powerful enemy mage most of the time) while not destroying multiple casters and units as well as shutting down a whole magic phase with a 50pts item. And please don't say it is random, you are already 24inches up the board on turn 2. Anything but a 1 will catch the wizard you are targeting almost all the time.

Lizardmen
Cupped Hands- Same thing with the Hellheart, the item is extremely powerful, 7 dice dwellers kills half a unit (maybe some charachters), check if the miscast is bad, if it is, bounce it to the enemy lvl4 to double dip. By making it activate before miscast roll makes the LM player think more (what if I roll a 5-6 or 8-9 which is nothing).

WoC
Puppet - I am sure you guys are seeing a trend here. Miscasts are powerful (as the should be), however miscast shennenigans items should not be so cheap, or easy to use. This item is worse than hellheart, cupped hands. It basically eliminates chance of friendly wizards losing levels or cascading, at the same time it almost guarantees that enemy wizards will get either cascaded or become retarted.

If neccesary make the miscast table even more brutal (eg. wizard suffers D3 wounds rather than one on 5-6-7) but don't allow some armies to modify them without taking risks/thinking while others can do nothing about it.

VC and TK
As a TK player I wouldn't want my heroes/lords to gain wounds as they are tough as nails. 5T and 4W for lords and 5T 3W for heroes is already kick ass (though armor is another matter). Vamps already have the hunger and with vampire making a bajillon attacks already guarantees a heal hence already making them tough as nails (please correct me if I am wrong but he rolls a D6 for each wound he inflicts and gets a wound back if any of them are 6 right?).

Non-march is okay, though it is kinda stupid restriction as crumble is a huge handicap by itself but TK has always been a red-headed child and TK players know it.

Only thing TK needs is the lift of "one W per phase" on constructs and desert wind not affecting units in combat. Having a lore attribute that only affects 2 spells %90 of the time is a bit meh (same problem with heaven and metal). Most of the time you can cast a max of 2 spells anyway. If you are getting through all 3 augements a turn than it means the game is over already.

The 4+. Ogre sized snake having a better save than a mountain of stone is a bit retarted. Rulewise the 4+ would curb the NecroKnights a little (best unit in the book) while buffing Necro Sphinx (meh) and Ushabti (double meh) just a little bit making them a little more viable.

Wood Elves
Unfortunately although they disregard dangerous terrain tests they are still affected by the negative affects of the forests. Actually the strider rule should be FAQ'ed (please look above).

Making the forest spirit save a straight up ward save will also help the hippies a lot as well.
Heck make all their bows S4 at short range and now they become scary (not OP though).

DOC
Gifts are magic items. Please enlighten me (no sarcasm) but as far as I know no one duplicates items other than siren song, loremaster, dispell scroll anyway. So why is making Gifts magic items so horribly wrong that it requires a facepalm. I honestly would like to know this so I can have a better understanding.

I know that T-stomp doesn't regain wounds but there are a lot of people still arguing that it does, as FAQ doesn't specifically mention Demonic Gifts. Please direct me to the FAQ or AB page that says Demonic Gifts = Special rules (once again no witty sarcasm here just don't know where to look).

To be honest I have no symphaty for DoC as they single handedly broke a whole addition but the changes I propose do not nerf them to hell at all. If I was subjective I would propose that DoC crumble like the undead (though they should :) God I hate deamons so much).



FINAL WORDs
BTW although there have not been point changes in FAQ's as far as I can remember, but there have been many major rules overhauls and complete unit re-writes before as mentioned before. So above changes are all possible if GW wants it.

Far2Casual
08-03-2012, 12:24
As an Ogre general, I have to say that the suggestion of making the Hellheart a 55pts item makes perfect sense for the reasons mentionned above. It's still our only defense against T1/T2 losses against Purple Sun, so removing it because it destroys Vampires isn't fair.

TsukeFox
08-03-2012, 12:28
Where I see the reasons for the Hellheart I also see this scenerio:
Ogres vs Undead

By ogre turn 3 an ogre player can be 36 inches into the battle field-pop goes the heart.
All vamps get a slap, blow chunks in their units, or explode into the warp. (shame one cannot buy the Mage lvl separately )
Lvl4 earthing rod wearers breath easy-maybe. Non earthing rod wearers pee themselves.
Now it is just two armies, but the ability to Nuke an army for less than 100 points is a tad OP.

If the heart could not give the dimensional cascade result I think everyone would be happy.
Of course next turn opponent STill drops initiative test bomb-dunno
Just a thought of course.

Moses
08-03-2012, 14:13
I am strongly in favour of a nerf to Hellheart in a world where Purple Sun, Pit of Shades and such are also nerfed. Hellheart doesn't need to be as potentially powerful as it is in a world where half your army can get wiped out by one spell, which is what Hellheart is there as defence against

LegioIgnatum
08-03-2012, 15:13
What if Hellheart affected only one mage?

Isn't this enough defense against the purple sun? Direct it against that mage either it dies, loses levels with a chance of losing purple sun or at a minimum shuts that phase down.

I don't get people who say
- Well yeah an item 50pts is our only defense against purple sun.
- Or "Our lords are T3 so we need pendant"
- Or "We need cupped hands otherwise half my temple guard dies"
- Or "We need puppet or enemy magic destroys us"
- Or "We need book of hoeth because all HE infantry have T3"

Well
-that 50pts item not only protects you against purple sun but also kills/retards 2-3 mages or destroys units with S6/S10 templates AND shut downs a magic phase with 0 risk to you
-that 35pts item when combined with the other retarted 35pts item not only allows your lord to survive but to charge any unit you want and hold it up for the entire game while killing the heroes inside it with 0 risk to you
-that 45pts item does not only protects your temple guard but kills/retards opponent's mage or destroys a unit when you want with 0 risk to you
-that XXpts item does not only gimps your enemies magic phase (for the entire game) but also is the best protection against miscast for your own mages (for the entire game once again) with 0 risk
-that 100pts item allows you to buff your units but also guarantees deletion of a unit/half a unit per turn with minimal risk

No you don't need these they are all cruthes that players use, and other then Book of Hoeth they are all retartedly undercosted. They would be ok if
- Target 1 mage (still protects you against the sun)
- Below S of attack (still gives you 3+ against Str 5)
- Activate before miscast roll (still protects the temple guard)
- 1 use only or offensive only (still cascades a mage that miscasts or makes him/her become retarted hence providing magic defense)
- Must reach casting level without mage lvl bonus for irresistable(still allows you to cast 2/3 guaranteed spells but not the skillrazor/skillers below with %100 guarantee )

Far2Casual
08-03-2012, 15:21
@Tsukefox.

I know that. That's a TON of "if's". "If" I play a Vampire player, "If" he has many casters, "If" they are all close to my Hellheart, "If" I get a 6 on the roll, "If" the guy roll Cascades, ... If it seems problematic for you then ok, but then I could also ask the lore of shadows and the lore of death to be removed from the game, because I play Ogre. Lizardmen players could ask the removal of lore of life (they still have light ...) from the game because you know, losing your 500 pts Slann (700+ VP) to a single cast of Dwellers is also broken. Empire players could ask to remove the Brass Orb because it owns their tank, and Brets could ask the removal of lore of metal.

It's all sad, but we all have bad matchups. Live with it.

TsukeFox
08-03-2012, 15:26
@far2casual
Hey did not one guy have an entire army of gnoblars?

Anywho it was just a thought. Not a this must be done-!!
Just a thought....

In any event what I reaaly want is for all the scrolls past 25 points to dispell as well.
**ducks for cover**

N810
08-03-2012, 15:26
-that 45pts item does not only protects your temple guard but kills/retards opponent's mage or destroys a unit when you want with 0 risk to you

That 45 point one use only item that has a 5/6 chance of working and only passes most of a miscast result depending on the roll and only if the other mage is a valad taget at the time.

yea that's completely risk free. :p

Far2Casual
08-03-2012, 15:34
Now that I have said that, I would like GW to address the issues most of us have with imba spells, the same way they did with the Power Scroll. A Pit (of Shade) swallowing a Sphinx that is three times bigger than the template is ridiculous, imo.

Banville
08-03-2012, 15:54
I'd like mindrazor to work by swapping the Ld and S characteristics so that you might be S8 but you're now Leadership 3 for one round.

The bearded one
08-03-2012, 16:01
Lizardmen
Cupped Hands- Same thing with the Hellheart, the item is extremely powerful, 7 dice dwellers kills half a unit (maybe some charachters), check if the miscast is bad, if it is, bounce it to the enemy lvl4 to double dip. By making it activate before miscast roll makes the LM player think more (what if I roll a 5-6 or 8-9 which is nothing).

ha, I've been playing it like that (don't roll myself, but bounce it away and let the opponent roll) :D Now I can use it more effectively so I can preserve it if the miscast result is neglegible!

DaemonReign
08-03-2012, 16:05
I am strongly in favour of a nerf to Hellheart in a world where Purple Sun, Pit of Shades and such are also nerfed.

Yeah people are advocating that we pry open the Pandora's box. There's no bottom once you tread down that path.
Dwellers, Pit of Shades, Purple Sun. All bring excellent 'spice' to the game. Their impact is exaggerated in the extreme as well. Changing the way they work would be quite a shame, and set the ball in motion prompting further edits that would inevitably water down the whole game.
Oh well..

LegioIgnatum
08-03-2012, 16:16
N810 I am also a LM player yet it is redicilous to say cupped hands is not too good for its cost.

1- the best on a dice roll is 5/6. So yeah I think it is risk free as it can be in Warhammer.
2- not once have I ever failed to bounce it because a wizard was out of LOS. Where are you casting the 7 dice spell? The fast cav on the right most flank?
3- Most of a miscast result means either %50 chance of death, D3 level loss or a large Str10 pie plate.

Maybe I should put it this way "Where is the risk in using the Cupped Hands vs not using it?" I don't see it.

With my suggestion
risk is what if I opponent rolls 5-6,5,8-9 which are relatively harmless hence waste of the item. Small template doesnt cover much when centred on the slann, one S6 hit is meh etc.
I don't know about you but I only bounce it on 1-4 and 11-10 which either kills the enemy highest level wizard half the time or makes him lose D3 levels.

TBO now I feel sad that I have created another 7 dice dweller double dip monster. The shame.... THE SHAAAAMEEEEE :P

Jind_Singh
08-03-2012, 16:21
Dear Gamesworkshop....

Please define spells from pre-8th ed books as vortex, direct damage, etc, to clarify gameplay please!!!

PLEASE!!!!

- If the only model in BASE CONTACT is the Unit champion, does this mean that attacks can only be directed at the champion, therefore excess wounds do NOT carry over to the rank & file.....

LegioIgnatum
08-03-2012, 16:31
Each to his own I guess. But it cannot be denied that some items/units/spells are over the top.

Just take a look at the lists posted on these very forums.
How many DE list have you seen without Pendant?
How many LM list have you seen without Cupped Hands?
How many OG list have you seen without Hellheart?
How many WOC list have you seen without Puppet?
or etc.

Heck how many lists have you seen without a lvl 4?

New books in 8th are heading on the right direction as there have been only a couple of must have items
-OK(Hellheart)
-VC(Red Fury)
-O&G(Shrunken head maybe??? though it is much softer than the other two)
-TK (none as far as I know)

Same with the uber spells, there are none in 8th ed books

Heck even units are pretty cool other than 1 2 units (incidentilay these are always the new kits. Gee I wonder why :P)
-TK(Warsphinx,Necro Knights)
-VC(Mortis Engine, Crypt Horrors)
-OK(Mournfangs)
-O&G(Savage Orcs)

So the game is heading to a pretty good direction. Lets hope there are no more DOC cases. But GW should not be ashamed of admitting to their mistakes and releasing a major FAQ on a bi-annual/annual basis to bring rules upto date (Warmachine,FOW,Kings of War etc does it all the time). But obviously this will reduce the sales as forcing a Breton or a WE player to buy a new army until their book comes out compared to keeping these armies playable through annual updates will generate more revenues and allow GW to handle their cash flow better. Same with perfecting an edition through updates rather than swinging the power scale from north to south forcing people to buy more models with a new edition every 4 years (called sales boom). (5th heroes->6th monsters->7th cavalry->8th infantry)

As I said I play 2 extremely powerful armies (DE,LM), 1 so-so army (HE) and 1 weak ass army (TK) and I have all the possible models x2 for each of these armies so edition changes do not affect me too much (can jump from army to army or cavalry heavy to inf heavy when I want to win tournies or leagues). But I rather have a more equal playing field where the game is not a forgone conclusion as soon as the armies are set-up.

N810
08-03-2012, 16:39
I am just saying that the risk reduces the cost, as it is not a sure thing,
unlike something like the book of Hoteth that works every time and evey turn.

Lord Inquisitor
08-03-2012, 16:41
I think it would make more sense to errata it to remove the Ironfist option from Butchers and Slaughtermasters, rather than ruling it that shields don't count as armour. As an Ogre player I would support removing the option, it would make more sense.
Or they could have just errata'd that they can't have magic armour instead of a FAQ that says you can do it but you should feel bad.

Actually what they SHOULD do is simply LIST what kinds of magic items a character can have!

Slaughtermaster: may select up to 100 points of choices from the following categories: Magic Weapon, Enchanted Item, Arcane Item, Talisman.
Bruiser: may select up to 50 points of choices from the following categories: Magic Weapon, Enchanted Item, Magic Armour, Talisman, Big Name. A BSB may instead select a Magic Banner with no points limit but may not select any other Magic Items.

See? Simple and doesn't cause any confusion.


Standard of Discipline - This item alone destroys all combat lords in the game. Everyone complains about combat lords being inneficient in killing etc but the major benefit of the combat lords is the extra pip of LD. This item totally removes that element (which allows combat lords to barely compete with lord level wizards).
It's not the item to be fair but the FAQ. Just say that a unit with the banner cannot use the +1 for Inspiring Presence.


Super Spells - Should definately give lookout to characters. 13th,Dwellers, Gateway would still ruin a deathstars day but none of thse should have the chance of realistically ending the game turn 1, which they do now. If this would affect the game too badly make it so these spells deal D6 wounds to characters rather than instant death so at least lords have 1/3 chance of surviving while heroes would have 1/6 chance of surviving (or D3 wounds but this will make the MI heroes much more survivable so not sure).
I think they need more than this. Really, Purple Sun and Pit are WAY cheaper and more powerful than the equivalent spells in the new army book lores. Many of the rulebook spells are badly costed or overpowered. Compare Flesh to Stone with basic Toothcracker. Clearly the army book lores are more balanced.


Crown of Command - Dunno maybe you guys are right and heroes should be able to take it, but at least make it a talisman so that it cannot be stacked with wardsaves. Heck when I think about it actually this makes more sense as it will eliminate the unkillable char blocking half the army while killing all the characters one by one trick.
The Beastmen book have an upgrade that makes the character stubborn and that's costed at 70 points. I think that seems about right. Still awesome but very hard to fit in.


XXX Strider; Unit does not have to take dangerous terrain tests,can always march thorough them and are not affected by negative effects of XXXs. As it stands now you can take out the strider rule and the game will not change one bit.
It's very useful for some units like cav.


OGRES
I am not trying to destroy the hellheart, and I am all for Ogres having a defence against purple sun/pit, all I am trying to do is make it so that only lords can take it. Didn't any of you guys face the suicide butcher.
-Lvl 1 Butcher + Hellheart
-Turn 1 march
-Turn 2 Leave unit march towards wizards
- Pop Hellheart
- ??
- Profit.
.... No?

Sacrificing a 150 point model for a few miscasts seems dumb. Or I could leave him inside a unit and ram the unit down your throat and not sacrifice the butcher?

The only thing making it 55 points will do is put the final nail in the coffin of the tyrant. I'll still take it, I'll just shuffle items around so the slaughtermaster carries it instead of a butcher. Unfortunately, it'll make fitting both a tyrant and a slaughtermaster from difficult to impossible.


Lizardmen
Cupped Hands- Same thing with the Hellheart, the item is extremely powerful, 7 dice dwellers kills half a unit (maybe some charachters), check if the miscast is bad, if it is, bounce it to the enemy lvl4 to double dip. By making it activate before miscast roll makes the LM player think more (what if I roll a 5-6 or 8-9 which is nothing).
Wait, can you choose not to use the Cupped Hands? It just says "If the bearer miscasts, roll a D6" - nothing about choosing to activate it. I believe it has to be used on the first miscast.


VC and TK
As a TK player I wouldn't want my heroes/lords to gain wounds as they are tough as nails. 5T and 4W for lords and 5T 3W for heroes is already kick ass (though armor is another matter). Vamps already have the hunger and with vampire making a bajillon attacks already guarantees a heal hence already making them tough as nails (please correct me if I am wrong but he rolls a D6 for each wound he inflicts and gets a wound back if any of them are 6 right?).
No, it is a single roll, not one per attack.


As an Ogre general, I have to say that the suggestion of making the Hellheart a 55pts item makes perfect sense for the reasons mentionned above. It's still our only defense against T1/T2 losses against Purple Sun, so removing it because it destroys Vampires isn't fair.
As I said above, I don't see how that changes anything apart from making Tyrants finally too difficult to take.


Where I see the reasons for the Hellheart I also see this scenerio:
Ogres vs Undead

By ogre turn 3 an ogre player can be 36 inches into the battle field-pop goes the heart.
All vamps get a slap, blow chunks in their units, or explode into the warp. (shame one cannot buy the Mage lvl separately )
Lvl4 earthing rod wearers breath easy-maybe. Non earthing rod wearers pee themselves.
Now it is just two armies, but the ability to Nuke an army for less than 100 points is a tad OP.

If the heart could not give the dimensional cascade result I think everyone would be happy.
Of course next turn opponent STill drops initiative test bomb-dunno
Just a thought of course.
Actually, against undead and beastmen dimensional cascades aren't usually that bad. What you really don't want to do is roll an 8-9 result on two wizards. Every wizard takes two S6 hits. BOOM BOOM BOOM. Bad news for 2W wizards with no save.

Off topic but I got some Hellheart karma at the last tournament I went to with my ogres. I went up against another ogre player, he got his hellheart off first - both my butcher and slaughtermaster rolled dimensional cascades :cries:

Hellheart is a wonky item. There's a distinct need for ogres to have something like this but it's so random and unpredictable. It's typically not that good, often outright useless but potentially devastating.



I don't get people who say
- Well yeah an item 50pts is our only defense against purple sun.
- Or "Our lords are T3 so we need pendant"
- Or "We need cupped hands otherwise half my temple guard dies"
- Or "We need puppet or enemy magic destroys us"
- Or "We need book of hoeth because all HE infantry have T3"
Well, all of these have a grain of truth to them. Ogres do need a defence against purple sun. Slaan are absurdly vulnerable to miscasts in a way other wizards are not. Elves need something to edge out their heroes and expensive elite infantry being so easy to kill.

That doesn't mean that we need absurdly undercosted items like the pendant, mind, nor does it justify these items as they are. But Slaan need some kind of miscast protection, Ogres need some kind of Psun defence, etc.


Now that I have said that, I would like GW to address the issues most of us have with imba spells, the same way they did with the Power Scroll. A Pit (of Shade) swallowing a Sphinx that is three times bigger than the template is ridiculous, imo.
I agree. Given the extensive errata they have already applied, they could look at addressing the most problematic spells in the rulebook.

Lord Inquisitor
08-03-2012, 16:50
Yeah people are advocating that we pry open the Pandora's box. There's no bottom once you tread down that path.
Dwellers, Pit of Shades, Purple Sun. All bring excellent 'spice' to the game. Their impact is exaggerated in the extreme as well. Changing the way they work would be quite a shame, and set the ball in motion prompting further edits that would inevitably water down the whole game.
Oh well..

What "spice" is that? Totalling units (or armies?). It's pretty clear from the 5 Lores that have been published since the release of 8th edition that this "spice" is lacking from their Lores.

I don't think the horror stories of purple sun have been exaggerated. I've seen an ogre army at the ard boyz final (with the old book, how awesome is that?) get totalled by a single purple sun. He lost 2/3 of his 3000 point army to it. It's crap when a general able to fight it through to the finals with bloody old book ogres can lose a game to someone who simply rolled two sixes and a decent range. That's not "spice" that's rubbish.

Having played more than a few games with ogres, I can tell you playing a game where someone 6-dices purple sun every turn isn't "spicy". I don't see why purple sun can't be more like Curse of da bad Moon and pit of shades can't be more like The Maw. Considering very similar casting values, same amount of "spice", yet no-one is complaining about them.

LegioIgnatum
08-03-2012, 17:02
Quote Originally Posted by LegioIgnatum View Post
I don't get people who say
- Well yeah an item 50pts is our only defense against purple sun.
- Or "Our lords are T3 so we need pendant"
- Or "We need cupped hands otherwise half my temple guard dies"
- Or "We need puppet or enemy magic destroys us"
- Or "We need book of hoeth because all HE infantry have T3"
Well, all of these have a grain of truth to them. Ogres do need a defence against purple sun. Slaan are absurdly vulnerable to miscasts in a way other wizards are not. Elves need something to edge out their heroes and expensive elite infantry being so easy to kill.

That doesn't mean that we need absurdly undercosted items like the pendant, mind, nor does it justify these items as they are. But Slaan need some kind of miscast protection, Ogres need some kind of Psun defence, etc.

And the things I have mentioned before still allows miscast protection for slann, sun protection for OK etc.

- Target 1 mage (still protects you against the sun)
- Below S of attack (still gives you 3+ against Str 5)
- Activate before miscast roll (still protects the temple guard)
- 1 use only or offensive only (still cascades a mage that miscasts or makes him/her become retarted hence providing magic defense)
- Must reach casting level without mage lvl bonus for irresistable(still allows you to cast 2/3 guaranteed spells but not the skillrazor/skillers below with %100 guarantee )




Sorry no idea how to quote.

hamsterwheel
08-03-2012, 17:13
Everyone's opinions on what is over powered or not depends upon what armies they play and who their opponents are. The fact that the casket of souls has no consequences to a miscast is annoying. So is the fact that an empire player can take a level 4, an arch-lector and a warrior priest and have a static 3 dispel dice but still have a +4 to dispel on. Every army tends to have some cheesy combination of things, if they start to remove these, expect every army to lose something then.

Lord Inquisitor
08-03-2012, 17:18
Oooh, that's true. There should be some kind of consequence to miscasting with an innate power. An automatic S10 hit or something. That bugs me. Six dicing with a war altar because there's no consequence to miscasting is rather annoying.

theunwantedbeing
08-03-2012, 17:19
Oooh, that's true. There should be some kind of consequence to miscasting with an innate power. An automatic S10 hit or something. That bugs me. Six dicing with a war altar because there's no consequence to miscasting is rather annoying.

I thought bound spells were rubbish and were incapable of doing anything good?

LegioIgnatum
08-03-2012, 17:22
Unless it is the enemy's bound items. Then they are imba as hell :shifty:.

Lord Inquisitor
08-03-2012, 17:40
I thought bound spells were rubbish and were incapable of doing anything good?

Says who? But it's specifically innate bounds that are cheesy. Particularly ones with access to a whole lore. All the benefits of IF and none of the disadvantages. Regular bound items do have a significant downside to IF - they get destroyed. I've long been of the opinion that should happen to the war altar too. :evilgrin:

DaemonReign
08-03-2012, 17:43
What "spice" is that? Totalling units (or armies?). It's pretty clear from the 5 Lores that have been published since the release of 8th edition that this "spice" is lacking from their Lores.

I don't think the horror stories of purple sun have been exaggerated. I've seen an ogre army at the ard boyz final (with the old book, how awesome is that?) get totalled by a single purple sun. He lost 2/3 of his 3000 point army to it. It's crap when a general able to fight it through to the finals with bloody old book ogres can lose a game to someone who simply rolled two sixes and a decent range. That's not "spice" that's rubbish.

Having played more than a few games with ogres, I can tell you playing a game where someone 6-dices purple sun every turn isn't "spicy". I don't see why purple sun can't be more like Curse of da bad Moon and pit of shades can't be more like The Maw. Considering very similar casting values, same amount of "spice", yet no-one is complaining about them.

Look I really just like this Game pretty much the way it is. I like the chaos. That you can't control it. I like not knowing what'll happen. I like grand cataclysmic things happening.

Ogres got some strengths and some weaknesses. Sure. I've played alot against Dwarves. Won against them with the Purple Nuke, and also lost against them while still managing to Purple Nuke them. We've all seen "this or that" happening in games, I'm sure. My overall impression though, is still that it's exaggerated.¨

As with most of these complaints. Aside of more often than not simply missing the 'essence' of the game (oh you might scoff at the notion, but it's what made this game great balance-fascist tournament-players can grind their teeth all the want) it's mostly exaggeration.

Pendant is awesome - thus the added sweetness whenever you manage to still bash that elven lord's head in. And so on. Changing the P-scroll was a giant cop-out. Taking cheap-shots at whatever Army List you happen to have problems with just adds to bad attitudes floating around, compounded like nowhere else right Here on Warseer for some reason.

So yeah.. I respectfully disagree.

Moonstone_Fellblade
08-03-2012, 17:58
Dear Gamesworkshop....

Please define spells from pre-8th ed books as vortex, direct damage, etc, to clarify gameplay please!!!

PLEASE!!!!

- If the only model in BASE CONTACT is the Unit champion, does this mean that attacks can only be directed at the champion, therefore excess wounds do NOT carry over to the rank & file.....

This.
I take it you've had trouble with Brets as well Jind?

Lord Inquisitor
08-03-2012, 18:07
- If the only model in BASE CONTACT is the Unit champion, does this mean that attacks can only be directed at the champion, therefore excess wounds do NOT carry over to the rank & file.....
Is this even up for debate? The rulebook clearly states you have to allocate against enemies with different profiles and that wounds allocated against the champion do not spill over...


So yeah.. I respectfully disagree.
Fair enough. I feel that there has to be a discord between the rulebook lores and the army book lores. The comparison between, say, Pit and Maw are laughable. Either the rulebook lores are too good, too spicy, or the armybook lores suck in comparison, not spicy enough.

DaemonReign
08-03-2012, 18:34
[COLOR="#EE82EE"]Fair enough. I feel that there has to be a discord between the rulebook lores and the army book lores. The comparison between, say, Pit and Maw are laughable. Either the rulebook lores are too good, too spicy, or the armybook lores suck in comparison, not spicy enough.

I think it's background-related actually. Orcs, Goblins, Ogres, well let's face it, they're 'knuckleheads' compared to the more refined cultures amongst races in Warhammer. I sincerely believe that's a big part of it. At least as big a part as, say, GW Design going 'holy moly, whatever we do no more no-saves-of-any-kind spell!' I think it makes perfect sense that their wizardry just isn't as good as some of the BrB Lores (let alone Daemons, WoC, High Elves, Lizardmen etcetera). The strength of these races (hopefully) reside elsewhere - be it numbers, brute force, whatever.

There's a pretty neat symbology in the fact that two 'big' über-spells are found in the diametrically opposed Lores of Life and Death. I'm sure you see what I am getting at. Sure, LoShadows don't allow saves either but other parts of its mechanics makes it just a tad less grand compared to Dwellers/P-Sun.

Well just my two cents on that. I don't think we've got enough books for 8th to know just yet whether those 'imba' spells will even be completely unique to the BrB Lores. I think they will be, though, and again: Not because GW thinks they were a mistake, but because of the whole "Life and Death" thing I mentioned earlier.

Von Wibble
08-03-2012, 21:47
Is this even up for debate? The rulebook clearly states you have to allocate against enemies with different profiles and that wounds allocated against the champion do not spill over...


Fair enough. I feel that there has to be a discord between the rulebook lores and the army book lores. The comparison between, say, Pit and Maw are laughable. Either the rulebook lores are too good, too spicy, or the armybook lores suck in comparison, not spicy enough.

I think they are learning to an extent - they saw the rulebook lores were too good and at least aren't repeating this with the army books.

My preferred FAQ issues / erratas

1) Clarify spell types and targetting allowed for older spells.

2) Allow skirmishers their rank bonus in combat. The only unit that actually benefits from this much is Dryads but it would give wood elves a chance long term to be able to keep skirmish without being punished for it.

3) Another vote on banner of discipline, though I would also be happy to see it just go up to 60 points.

4) Reverse ruling on flame cannon.

5) Allow all bsbs full access to equipment (older books don't have this currently)



Daemonreign - I'd accept that pont about life and death if it were restricted more. But given that most armies, including the primitive ogres, have access to one or the other, I can't see that logic. Also, the fluff would surely indicate dark magic is the easiest route to power so this should have killer spells. Do you really think these should be more powerful than the rulebook lores?

GrimmHammer
08-03-2012, 21:52
as always fix the salamanders.

The bearded one
08-03-2012, 22:51
Off topic but I got some Hellheart karma at the last tournament I went to with my ogres. I went up against another ogre player, he got his hellheart off first - both my butcher and slaughtermaster rolled dimensional cascades :cries:

I had that at a doubles tournament recently; the ogre obviously carrying the hellheart was approaching, my and my teammate fled off with our skink priests and managed to get 25 inches away from him. Then the ogre rolled a 5 for distance, my and my teammate both rolled dimensional cascades and my priest died.


Slaan are absurdly vulnerable to miscasts in a way other wizards are not.

..

But Slaan need some kind of miscast protection,

Slann damnit, Slann


3) Another vote on banner of discipline, though I would also be happy to see it just go up to 60 points.

Wow, 60 points? Really? At least make it 50 so that it'll fit on unitstandards, but merely be really expensive.


4) Reverse ruling on flame cannon.

yes please.

theunwantedbeing
08-03-2012, 23:33
I had that at a doubles tournament recently; the ogre obviously carrying the hellheart was approaching, my and my teammate fled off with our skink priests and managed to get 25 inches away from him. Then the ogre rolled a 5 for distance, my and my teammate both rolled dimensional cascades and my priest died.

So...if you get stupidly unlucky with an item the enemy has, it is broken as hell and needs nerfing to buggery.
However...
If an item is unlucky itself and does nothing then that is to be ignored utterly.

Or are we all just hating on the Hellheart now seeing as GW ruined the Ring of Hotek so we haven't got anything to whinge about because apparently anything Tzeentch is fine?

The Low King
08-03-2012, 23:39
Hellheart is good if you take 2 wizards (or maybe one, but the chances of getting a good miscast arnt that great)
Its broken if you have more than two wizards
A magicless army or one where the dispel caddy hides at the back or something and the hellheart replaces whatever useful item you could be taking.

The bearded one
09-03-2012, 00:02
So...if you get stupidly unlucky with an item the enemy has, it is broken as hell and needs nerfing to buggery.
However...
If an item is unlucky itself and does nothing then that is to be ignored utterly.

I was just sharing an anecdote.. :( :( :(

TsukeFox
09-03-2012, 02:21
Well warriors are being redone by the end of the year-so says the "rumors." let us hope an 8th edition book fixes it.
Further I think the general census is:

Toning down the doomsdays spells to allow LoS, d3/D6 wounds as oppose to "die", & Skillrazer to allow armour saves vs new strength.

An FAQ statement saying curse of Anrehier working like the TK curse as we all know it should but since the BRB does not say so it is up for debate.

Increase price on standard of discipline & stubborn crown(Beastman have it for 70 points...?)

Dwarf errata should fix itself if they come out this year and with luck they will be as powerful as their chaos brothers

Waiting on vamp FAQ
TK constructs reaaly should be able to be healed more than once a phase.

Spell classification for pre8th edition spells, maybe even lore atrributes
Wood elves not to be effected by mysterious woods
Pre8th edition BSBs to carry equipment like everyone else

Now figuring out how to deal with the Hellheart & cupped hands
Oh and stabby dagger should be before one rolls actual spell dice not stab, roll, stab again, roll or however it works now

DivineVisitor
09-03-2012, 02:24
I'd like to see them amend the point values for certain units that need either an increase or decrease here and there.

The bearded one
09-03-2012, 02:24
stubborn crown(Beastman have it for 70 points...?)

Dwarfs have it for 100. Sometimes the costing of an item is simply bogus.

Kudzu
09-03-2012, 02:59
Dwarfs have it for 100. Sometimes the costing of an item is simply bogus.

Three books from different editions, three different costs. Sounds about right.

Bodysnatcher
09-03-2012, 06:55
I'm not quite sure why there's such a clamour for Mindrazor to allow armour saves at the original strength value. I must admit it would then become a spell I would hardly ever bother to cast - it would have almost exactly the same effect as withering, which is cheaper AND remains in play. It seems to me that the intent was to make a 'can-opener' spell from the get go.
An alternative would be to use the unit's Ld against the target's unmodified Ld to wound and allowing no armour saves.

Rosstifer
09-03-2012, 07:56
That could work. The problem is that at the moment it's just plain and simple too good. Razored Corsairs delete anything short of a 3++ Chosen horde with ease, and if it takes something that broken to even come close to surviving it, you know it's wrong. Of course, limiting Dark Elves back too 6 power dice max would also help. I've had someone throw 11 Dice at Skillrazor before, and it was just wrong.

DaemonReign
09-03-2012, 14:14
Daemonreign - I'd accept that pont about life and death if it were restricted more. But given that most armies, including the primitive ogres, have access to one or the other, I can't see that logic. Also, the fluff would surely indicate dark magic is the easiest route to power so this should have killer spells. Do you really think these should be more powerful than the rulebook lores?

Granted. It can be argued both ways. It's a bit illogical, admittedly. Basically, you'd have to assert that the Ogre Lore is a bit weaker because Ogres themselves are 'knuckleheads' as it were, but they on the other hand have such an innate penchant for destruction that they 'can learn' LoFire/LoDeath.
Letting them have access to LoDeath might also have been to balance their otherwise mediocre performance - a sweet irony imo, as a missfired P-Sun can really put the hurt on them..

Not sure which Lores you mean in your last (question) sentence there.. I am basically fine with the BRB Lores being unique with having massdestruction spells that allow no saves of any kind. I wouldn't even suggest such a mechanic for the "new" version of Infernal Gateway or the "new" version of Tzeentch Firestorm.

In terms of general utility, however, I think there are a handfull of Lores that should at least be on par with the BRB Lores though. Most notably whatever Magic High Elves use, and the Daemon Lore of Tzeentch (possible the WoC-version too).

And not to goof around, but yes LoShadow [edit: Dark Magic! sorry] is described as the fast route to power.. But being fast and easy doesn't necessarily mean it's where you reach the furthest heights, no?:p

The bearded one
09-03-2012, 14:19
And not to goof around, but yes LoShadow is described as the fast route to power..

Lore of shadow? Not dark magic?

TsukeFox
09-03-2012, 15:00
I'm not quite sure why there's such a clamour for Mindrazor to allow armour saves at the original strength value. I must admit it would then become a spell I would hardly ever bother to cast - it would have almost exactly the same effect as withering, which is cheaper AND remains in play. It seems to me that the intent was to make a 'can-opener' spell from the get go.
An alternative would be to use the unit's Ld against the target's unmodified Ld to wound and allowing no armour saves.
LD vs LD would not work-
Average Leadership is 7. Average elite unit leadership is 8.
In a high elf shadow vs dark elf shadow no one would bother with Skillrazer

So what is wrong with allowing Armour saves-? Only Brets (almos army wide 2+ &+3), heavy calv, ironbrakers, snake surfers, warriors with shields realy have high armour saves.

Chunk in enough attacks you are going to wound, easily with strength 8+-. More often than not most people only have 5+ or +4.

Most monsters do not have high armour saves but high toughness.
Allowing armour saves vs the new strengh would not be so bad.

DaemonReign
09-03-2012, 15:05
Lore of shadow? Not dark magic?

Damn it. I thought I'd make it back here fast enough to edit the post before 'the damage was done'.
Of course I meant Dark Magic. You're right. :)

TsukeFox
09-03-2012, 15:08
LD vs LD would not work-
Average Leadership is 7. Average elite unit leadership is 8.
In a high elf shadow vs dark elf shadow no one would bother with Skillrazer

So what is wrong with allowing Armour saves-? Only Brets (almos army wide 2+ &+3), heavy calv, ironbrakers, snake surfers, warriors with shields realy have high armour saves.

Chunk in enough attacks you are going to wound, easily with strength 8+-. More often than not most people only have 5+ or +4.

Most monsters do not have high armour saves but high toughness.
Allowing armour saves vs the new strengh would not be so bad.

Further mind razor like this would perhaps stop Shadow from being the auto include choice.

tmarichards
09-03-2012, 15:10
Changing Mindrazor to not allow it to interact with any other special rules would help a lot to depower Dark Elves (but might also hurt Beasts too much)- for example, Mindrazor not stacking with Hatred/Frenzy/Warrior Elite/Cauldron buffs would mean it would still be an awesome spell, but the main army that abuses it wouldn't be able to abuse it quite so much.

DaemonReign
09-03-2012, 15:13
Of course, limiting Dark Elves back too 6 power dice max would also help.

That's naturally what'll be 'fixed' rather than turning Mindrazor into a 'too expensive' version of the Withering just 'cause its synergy with one Army is a little OTT. I'd say.
Again: Not a matter of an FAQ but something that will most definately apeace players with a new DE book. Their 6+ dice castings is just as wrong for 8th Ed as if Pink Horrors had been allowed to keep their dice-generation. It's a transitional problem. In the meantime, I'll thouroughly enjoy the 'extra' challange of trying to counter the pale pointy-eared sobs!

decker_cky
09-03-2012, 16:50
I'm not quite sure why there's such a clamour for Mindrazor to allow armour saves at the original strength value. I must admit it would then become a spell I would hardly ever bother to cast - it would have almost exactly the same effect as withering, which is cheaper AND remains in play. It seems to me that the intent was to make a 'can-opener' spell from the get go.
An alternative would be to use the unit's Ld against the target's unmodified Ld to wound and allowing no armour saves.

Remains in play is both a strength and a weakness. In the case of mindrazor, remains in play would weaken it since it would remove the guaranteed 2 rounds you have with it. Yes, it would lower the magic coming against the casting army, but I find it's the second round of mindrazor that makes it better than the other #6 spells.

Lord Inquisitor
09-03-2012, 17:11
Granted. It can be argued both ways. It's a bit illogical, admittedly. Basically, you'd have to assert that the Ogre Lore is a bit weaker because Ogres themselves are 'knuckleheads' as it were, but they on the other hand have such an innate penchant for destruction that they 'can learn' LoFire/LoDeath.
Letting them have access to LoDeath might also have been to balance their otherwise mediocre performance - a sweet irony imo, as a missfired P-Sun can really put the hurt on them..

Not sure which Lores you mean in your last (question) sentence there.. I am basically fine with the BRB Lores being unique with having massdestruction spells that allow no saves of any kind. I wouldn't even suggest such a mechanic for the "new" version of Infernal Gateway or the "new" version of Tzeentch Firestorm.

In terms of general utility, however, I think there are a handfull of Lores that should at least be on par with the BRB Lores though. Most notably whatever Magic High Elves use, and the Daemon Lore of Tzeentch (possible the WoC-version too).

And not to goof around, but yes LoShadow [edit: Dark Magic! sorry] is described as the fast route to power.. But being fast and easy doesn't necessarily mean it's where you reach the furthest heights, no?:p

I'm sorry but all of this just seems like making stories to try and fit the balances of power. You could certainly argue that Fire or Beasts should be the most destructive Lores, harnessing pure, unfettered power.

Seems to me these are just justifications for the variance in game balance. I would be most surprised if the 8 Lores in the rulebook weren't designed to be as equal as possible and it is only with stress-testing in the hands of the players that discrepancies became apparent. Likewise, it seems very clear (to me, at least) that the designers learned a lot after the initial release of 8th and responded by making the subsequent army book Lores more balanced.

It does not strike me as credible that the designers deliberately make certain Lores more powerful for lower casting values as a basis of fluff. Aside from anything else I disagree with your analysis. Life and Death are not the most used lores. Life and Shadow are. Purple Sun is a desperately wonky spell but Shadow has more uses overall.

If we're running on the principle of easy to learn, one would assume many, absurdly low casting value spells (easy for a low level wizard to cast). A difficult to learn lore would have many, high casting value spells. I don't think we see that at all. One would have expected Life and Death by your logic to be very hard to use, with extremely high casting values. Fire and Beasts might have brokenly low casting values for their spells.

As for Ogres, Death's a pretty sub-par Lore for them. Deathfisting aside, it doesn't balance anything out. It is rarely taken (again, deathfisting aside) particularly since the requirement to take a Gut caster limits it. But it should be noted also the Ogres have access to Heavens. Surely that's not a savage, bestial Lore? As for Gut, the fact remains - if Ogres had access to Life, no-one would ever, ever, ever take Gut. There's plenty of potential justification for Life, perhaps more than Heavens - Ogres are vital creatures, their magic has always revolved around healing and making units tougher or regenerating. Even the Dwellers and Maw are fairly equivalent, representing a creature that appears under the enemy and drags them below. Life makes perfect sense for Ogres, frankly even as an Ogre player they could have just given them Life and not needed a whole new Lore. Certainly, it makes more sense than Heavens, the Lore of the "predictive power of astrology."

Shadowsinner
09-03-2012, 17:44
lores need more balance. fire should allow special fireball spells to be cast into combat. beast spells should be cheaper. metal should have the option of replacing the hits with s4 if enemies dont have armor. heavens should just be better all around. change mindrazor to half WS against enemies and double strength with saves allowed at normal penalty. dwellers needs a template.

skirmishers should be able to break supporting attack restrictions. (wardancers get 2+ supporting attacks each for example)

cupped hands should only work on a 4+ at a small point reduction. salamanders should be cheaper and have s2 templates. upgrade champ to have s3 shot

sabretusks need to be ld 6. gnoblars should be s3

Undead rule should follow demon instability rule with exception of zombies. TK should get the same benefits of marching and LD control as VC. constructs should be able to be healed more than once per spell. undead should be able to stand and shoot if possible.

Abomb needs to be not so stupidly overpowered... slaves should be 3 points a model and have stupidity and cannot reference general for check

chaos warriors should be I4

errata Matt Ward

Von Wibble
09-03-2012, 18:14
lores need more balance. fire should allow special fireball spells to be cast into combat. beast spells should be cheaper. metal should have the option of replacing the hits with s4 if enemies dont have armor. heavens should just be better all around. change mindrazor to half WS against enemies and double strength with saves allowed at normal penalty. dwellers needs a template.



Additionaly to this imo you should be able to cast spells in challenges against opponents. Is a wizard really going to try to hit someone with his staff with a knob on the end if he can just blast him with lightning? I think not.

Like the skirmisher idea. Cupped hands was also what I had in mind.

Undead - imo undead should actually get a bonus equivalent to steadfast. Something like "if an undead unnit has more ranks than the enemy but loses combat, halve the number of additional wounds caused to the unit (rounding up). This should apply before modifiers (eg bsb). That said, if the rumour about empire troops going up in cost is true, maybe undead will become dirt cheap in general so not need this.

Errata Matt Ward - do you mean genetically modify him somehow?!

Duke Ramulots
09-03-2012, 20:41
The knee-jerk emotional reactions that seem to have fueled most of these post are why I'm glad GW doesn't listen to most of us. Im not trying to bash anyone but c'mon man, 3 points and stupid for slaves? That takes them from annoyingly overpowered to the most worthless unit in the game.

A-bombs are only overpowered if you limit yourself to taking a bunch of blocks of infantry for them to munch on. Who goes to battle without flaming, HKB, or magic?

The bearded one
09-03-2012, 21:07
LD vs LD would not work-
Average Leadership is 7. Average elite unit leadership is 8.
In a high elf shadow vs dark elf shadow no one would bother with Skillrazer

So what is wrong with allowing Armour saves-? Only Brets (almos army wide 2+ &+3), heavy calv, ironbrakers, snake surfers, warriors with shields realy have high armour saves.

Chunk in enough attacks you are going to wound, easily with strength 8+-. More often than not most people only have 5+ or +4.

I would find regular strength 5 far more scary than str3 that's mindrazor'd because str5 deprives my saurs and templeguard of the majority of their save. Mindrazor on a unit like spearelves or corsairs would become one of those spells that takes a lot of dice and I could let go through on a whim because my saurus would be able to deal with it decently enough with 4+/6++.


Damn it. I thought I'd make it back here fast enough to edit the post before 'the damage was done'.
Of course I meant Dark Magic. You're right. :)

I enjoy doing damage to daemonplayers :p


A-bombs are only overpowered if you limit yourself to taking a bunch of blocks of infantry for them to munch on. Who goes to battle without flaming, HKB, or magic?

I haven't had that many encounters with the hellpit yet, but one of the first times was with my lizardmen. I managed to charge 24 saurus and a scar veteran with the burning blade of chotec into the flank of a hellpit, and when the combat was over the hellpit was dead, and I had a scar vet with 1 wound left ( I have visual proof somewhere in my blog!)The other time I casually trundled my own hellpit into the flank of the saurus of my opponent and killed ~12 in one round.

hamsterwheel
09-03-2012, 21:12
The knee-jerk emotional reactions that seem to have fueled most of these post are why I'm glad GW doesn't listen to most of us. Im not trying to bash anyone but c'mon man, 3 points and stupid for slaves? That takes them from annoyingly overpowered to the most worthless unit in the game.

A-bombs are only overpowered if you limit yourself to taking a bunch of blocks of infantry for them to munch on. Who goes to battle without flaming, HKB, or magic?

I agree, this thread has turned from a suggestion about logical things to address in the FAQ to a "what I want them to change in the next addition because these are the things my opponents bring that I don't like"

Shadowsinner
09-03-2012, 21:16
The knee-jerk emotional reactions that seem to have fueled most of these post are why I'm glad GW doesn't listen to most of us. Im not trying to bash anyone but c'mon man, 3 points and stupid for slaves? That takes them from annoyingly overpowered to the most worthless unit in the game.

A-bombs are only overpowered if you limit yourself to taking a bunch of blocks of infantry for them to munch on. Who goes to battle without flaming, HKB, or magic?

considering they are slaves they should have to be disoriented by the battlefield, considering theyre not trained fighters and theyd be terrified of death. it makes no sense for them to have the tactical superiority of benefiting from LD 10 checks because the general is near. and im sure the extra .5 pt per model is hyperinflation. a unit of 50 would be 150 points and should assist with adding rank bonuses to combat while fighting beside an actual fighty unit. its total crap that now they can tarpit elite units for theyre cheap cost with NO setback whatsoever. They should be a crappy utility unit and notihng more.

and no A-bombs are Op period. unless if i play elves or chaos, the bomb will strike before any other unit, and will chew infantry, as well as monstrous inf, and monsters apart before they get a chance to strike . most armies only get one fire unit should they take it, and 95 percent of the game doesnt have access to hkb, so while it's not impossible to kill, it outperforms every other monster in the game. my recommendations for the monster is thus...

m6 with front arc (no more random direction) ws3 s6 t6 w6 I3 A5+ special ld7- 250 points

model rolls d6 and confirms a chart which may grant extra attacks (no more than 6) a s3 template strike, a special s2 breath attack, and HKB attacks seperate from his profile.

extra rules are regen, stubborn, frenzy and reanimate (on death rolls d6. on 1-4 dead, on 5-6 regains d3 wounds) still pretty powerful for 250 points but more reasonable

Duke Ramulots
09-03-2012, 21:34
considering they are slaves they should have to be disoriented by the battlefield, considering theyre not trained fighters and theyd be terrified of death. it makes no sense for them to have the tactical superiority of benefiting from LD 10 checks because the general is near. and im sure the extra .5 pt per model is hyperinflation. a unit of 50 would be 150 points and should assist with adding rank bonuses to combat while fighting beside an actual fighty unit. its total crap that now they can tarpit elite units for theyre cheap cost with NO setback whatsoever. They should be a crappy utility unit and notihng more. 2 to 3 points is a 50% increase all while saying they need to have stupid is much more a defecit than you seem to realize. yes they can tarpit an elite unit "NEWS FLASH, THEY ARE A TARPIT UNIT", that's like complaining that cavalry are fast. Heres somthing you may not have considered, dont let that huge slow block of slaves tie up your unit of Chosen(or whatever elite you might have).


and no A-bombs are Op period. unless if i play elves or chaos, the bomb will strike before any other unit, and will chew infantry, as well as monstrous inf, and monsters apart before they get a chance to strike . most armies only get one fire unit should they take it, and 95 percent of the game doesnt have access to hkb, so while it's not impossible to kill, it outperforms every other monster in the game. my recommendations for the monster is thus...

m6 with front arc (no more random direction) ws3 s6 t6 w6 I3 A5+ special ld7- 250 points

model rolls d6 and confirms a chart which may grant extra attacks (no more than 6) a s3 template strike, a special s2 breath attack, and HKB attacks seperate from his profile.

extra rules are regen, stubborn, frenzy and reanimate (on death rolls d6. on 1-4 dead, on 5-6 regains d3 wounds) still pretty powerful for 250 points but more reasonable

Saying it's overpowered doesn't make it so. Also responding to a post saying dont be dumb enough to throw infantry blocks at it with "ZOMG, it kills my infantry", is a bit sad.

TsukeFox
09-03-2012, 21:46
Okay-! So what if mind razed just doubled the targets unmodified strengh?

DaemonReign
09-03-2012, 23:05
I agree, this thread has turned from a suggestion about logical things to address in the FAQ to a "what I want them to change in the next addition because these are the things my opponents bring that I don't like"

Look that was really where this thread started. There was no turning point. It was like that right from the first get-go. *lol*

theunwantedbeing
09-03-2012, 23:19
Okay-! So what if mind razed just doubled the targets unmodified strengh?

Not sure it really makes a difference.
You'de need a 3+ save before you actually got a save and they'de still wound virtually everything on a 2+ anyway.

Turning it into a Remains in play spell would be the simplest and most suitable alteration to power the spell down.

T10
10-03-2012, 11:51
The Standard of Discipline appears to want to allow the player the opportunity to field a higher-than-normal Ld unit that can operate away from the core of the army. The clause about not being able to use the General's Inspiring Presence rule is pretty mich an ecouragement to move out on the flanks or something: it's obvious you need a good Ld unit out there, and since they don't get any further boost by hanging near the General then the best place to put them is out there, fighting the good fight.

However, putting the General into the unit allows you to effectively use that bonus again and again for multiple units within the General's Ld range. It such a good combination that it would be downright stupid not to make use of it!

I would prefer a slightly different wording to the standard: "The unit with the Standard of Discipline and each model in it have a +1 bonus to their Leadership tests. The unit cannot use the General's Inspiring Presence rule."

Von Wibble
10-03-2012, 12:24
So the key difference is ld tests not ld, thus removing the inspriring presence problem? Sounds good to me.

The Low King
10-03-2012, 14:54
2 to 3 points is a 50% increase all while saying they need to have stupid is much more a defecit than you seem to realize. yes they can tarpit an elite unit "NEWS FLASH, THEY ARE A TARPIT UNIT", that's like complaining that cavalry are fast. Heres somthing you may not have considered, dont let that huge slow block of slaves tie up your unit of Chosen(or whatever elite you might have).

There is such a thing as being too good for their cost. Cavalry with M20 would be too good. A cannon that autowounded and hit would be too good.



Saying it's overpowered doesn't make it so. Also responding to a post saying dont be dumb enough to throw infantry blocks at it with "ZOMG, it kills my infantry", is a bit sad.

And if it throws itself at my infantry blocks? should i just flee them all away from it. Something is OP is too powerful for its cost, not that its impossible to deal with.


Saying 'dont let it get in combat with infantry' or 'take the banner of eternal flame' or 'dont fight it with elite units' is all very well but in reality a game doesnt work like that. If my opponant has two A-Bombs and i have one unit of cav with flaming attacks and lots of infantry what do i do? i cant get the cav in combat with both and i cant spend the game avoiding them with my infantry.

zak
10-03-2012, 15:27
I'm not sure why we are talking about slaves or the A'bomb - both of these will hopefully be fixed by a new book. I'm also not really sure why anyone is trying to defend either from entry into the broken club.

Mindrazor would be top of my list - although I always thought that the strength also modified the armour save. Even so the spell as it stands is just too good.

vinush
10-03-2012, 16:28
Clarification on the VC general choosing (is it the highest LD wizard using lore of vampires or is that your highest LD character who is a wizard must be the general and therefore take lore of vampries?)

There's confusion about this? The rule states that your general must be a magic user who must select Lore of Vampires if they have the ability to do so. The rules for selecting a general for any army is the character with the highest leadership [who is eligible to be the general].

The square brackets are for incidences whereby your highest leadership character has been given the BSB upgrade or is otherwise exempt due to special rules for the model/army.

THE \/ince

DaemonReign
10-03-2012, 18:11
Even so the spell as it stands is just too good.

*sigh* Well it's the 'hotam spirit of Warhammer man!
(Said in the spirit of general friendliness!! B'leave-me!)
Mindrazor is just too good. Birona's just too good. Teclis is just too good. P-Sun is just too good. Dwellers is just too good. 3++ Chosen is just too good. A-bamb, Hydra, Stank, Manglers, SoA, Cauldron, Master Rune of Balance, Van Horstmans Speculum, Hellheart, Kairos, Cuped Hands.. yada-yada-yada..
And furthermore: The Horde Rule, Steadfast, Hold Your Ground, Stubborn Crown ... Into infinity.

I enjoy this thread as much as the next guy. Not so much as "The Thread" about needed FAQ-clarifications but rather as a thread about what represents an 'extra challange' in your local games. It's interesting, but the entire premise of the thread seems off-topic compared to its actual contents. Sorry. I just call 'em as I see 'em.

Lord Inquisitor
10-03-2012, 20:01
Yes, this thread has been a wish list from the start. However, that okay, it's been fun. For a more serious thread about actual unanswered rules issues see this (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?332812-FAQ-Wishlist-4-0) one by AMWOOD.

TsukeFox
11-03-2012, 23:20
Oh that Is formal anp thought out

Maoriboy007
12-03-2012, 23:33
i'd like warmachines to have to pass a BS test to cause D6 wounds, otherwise they cause D3 instead.
Im with Linquisitor on the whole doom spells thing, GW seem to have realised that they were fairly stupid as seems reflected in the newest army books. They don't really destroy true deathstars either. What they do destroy is selected armies and units , units over 20 strong most monsters, characters, innocent bystanders passing flocks of birds and small bunny rabbits.

Da_White_Orc
13-03-2012, 18:19
Dwarfs - NO DUPLICATE RUNES. NONE! It`s absurd. No one else gets duplicate magic items, and neither do you, you beardy git!

VC - The new wraith cavalry can ONLY do their special attack, and can`t attack normally. and the black coach can only have ONE upgrade at a time. let's be serious here, you can't have it both (or all) ways at once!

Orcs and Goblins - give us back our crossbows and halberds. those were the days. and regular orcs need the option to take heavy armour or they will remain unused in competitve lists.

and clearly something has to be done about cannon. they are over-powered to an absurd level in this edition because even if you get in position to charge them, they just grape shot you. here's an idea? how about dwarfs can strap a grenade launched or maybe a mini-gun on the top of their cannon for anti infantry? i mean, no one should be able to take out your cannon ever, right? RIGHT?

The bearded one
13-03-2012, 18:42
Dwarfs - NO DUPLICATE RUNES. NONE! It`s absurd. No one else gets duplicate magic items, and neither do you, you beardy git!

That's not a FAQ request but 'zomg-it's unfair' wishlisting. This is tearing at the basic foundation of the system. Runes are not a magic item each, the idea is that you are building a magic item from various different effects which you can buy for a pointcost and incorporate into the item.

besides, "no one else gets duplicate items" (except daemons) but we don't get acces to common items either so we're not like everybody else anyway.


and clearly something has to be done about cannon. they are over-powered to an absurd level in this edition because even if you get in position to charge them, they just grape shot you. here's an idea? how about dwarfs can strap a grenade launched or maybe a mini-gun on the top of their cannon for anti infantry? i mean, no one should be able to take out your cannon ever, right? RIGHT?

You do know grrapeshot requires you to hit on your ballistic skill, right? Against your standard bs3 cannoncrew if you're 6.1 inches or more away, they hit on 5's. Even a roll of 10 shots would be a mere 3 hits.

The Low King
13-03-2012, 18:51
Dwarfs - NO DUPLICATE RUNES. NONE! It`s absurd. No one else gets duplicate magic items, and neither do you, you beardy git!

VC - The new wraith cavalry can ONLY do their special attack, and can`t attack normally. and the black coach can only have ONE upgrade at a time. let's be serious here, you can't have it both (or all) ways at once!

Orcs and Goblins - give us back our crossbows and halberds. those were the days. and regular orcs need the option to take heavy armour or they will remain unused in competitve lists.

and clearly something has to be done about cannon. they are over-powered to an absurd level in this edition because even if you get in position to charge them, they just grape shot you. here's an idea? how about dwarfs can strap a grenade launched or maybe a mini-gun on the top of their cannon for anti infantry? i mean, no one should be able to take out your cannon ever, right? RIGHT?

Oh lol, rofl. Thats brilliant....

Wait....you were joking right?

Da_White_Orc
13-03-2012, 19:25
Oh lol, rofl. Thats brilliant....

Wait....you were joking right?

it was a little tongue in cheek, naturally.

but i do really think duplicate runes of forging is straight up broken. why not just have dwarf war machines get to re-roll everything by default and cost a bit more?


This is tearing at the basic foundation of the system. Runes are not a magic item each, the idea is that you are building a magic item from various different effects which you can buy for a pointcost and incorporate into the item.

i agree that's how it was intended when it was written. but i've yet to meet a dwarf who actually adheres to that mission statement. it's just rune of forging rune of forging rune of forging and then whatever they need to add to make it 'legal'

and don't get me started on the rune of challenge. that's right up with cursed 13 imo. dice rolls should have to happen for everything imo. none of this 'oh it just DOES that automatically' you should have to roll at least ONE dice imo

Lord Inquisitor
13-03-2012, 19:58
Yikes, no one tell him about Siren Song then. Same cost as the Rune of Challenge except you can have multiples and it works on ItP units... :cheese:

Da_White_Orc
13-03-2012, 20:02
and to be fair above, you're absolutely right, i misread the thread title, didn't realize you were talking about little changes.

i don't see the point in little tweaks when we're still about 6 books shy of a full line-up anyway. why make FAQs when the next army books will break all the rules, anyway?

The Low King
13-03-2012, 20:18
it was a little tongue in cheek, naturally.

Phew...thats lucky


but i do really think duplicate runes of forging is straight up broken. why not just have dwarf war machines get to re-roll everything by default and cost a bit more?

For 70 points i can get an almost identical effect from a master engineer for any one warmachine within 3". You would have to come up with a whole new ability for him then


i agree that's how it was intended when it was written. but i've yet to meet a dwarf who actually adheres to that mission statement. it's just rune of forging rune of forging rune of forging and then whatever they need to add to make it 'legal'

It only taken on cannons (There are better combos on grudge throwers) and two cannons is usually the max, with 3 being the most they can physically take.

You are also of course ignoring every rune except the engineering runes in that statement....


and don't get me started on the rune of challenge. that's right up with cursed 13 imo. dice rolls should have to happen for everything imo. none of this 'oh it just DOES that automatically' you should have to roll at least ONE dice imo

1) Its a master rune so cant be Dublicated (and usually means you have to take a seperate character to take it)
2) its one use only
3) It doesnt work on ITP units
4) the target has to be able to charge

What exactly is wrong with it? it can pull one enemy unit into a bad position? and try unsing it against Daemons, Undead, Forest spirits etc

You do realise that every army has at least one 'automatic effect' ability/item right?

Da_White_Orc
13-03-2012, 20:57
Phew...thats lucky



For 70 points i can get an almost identical effect from a master engineer for any one warmachine within 3". You would have to come up with a whole new ability for him then



It only taken on cannons (There are better combos on grudge throwers) and two cannons is usually the max, with 3 being the most they can physically take.

You are also of course ignoring every rune except the engineering runes in that statement....



1) Its a master rune so cant be Dublicated (and usually means you have to take a seperate character to take it)
2) its one use only
3) It doesnt work on ITP units
4) the target has to be able to charge

What exactly is wrong with it? it can pull one enemy unit into a bad position? and try unsing it against Daemons, Undead, Forest spirits etc

You do realise that every army has at least one 'automatic effect' ability/item right?

Some people think the Book of Hoeth is cheesy, I think the duplicate misfire and bounce rerolls are cheesy...

i'm sure there's some orc and goblin rule that I feel is completely valid that you think is overpowered.

honestly i think running a gun line on the back table edge is straight disrespectful to the other person who took time out of their schedule to come down to the store and give you a game. and then to add insult to injury you don't even let them declare their own charges.

but i don't want to get into a big thing here

Lord Inquisitor
13-03-2012, 21:07
Launching fanatics from the back of a goblin unit so they go through the parent unit. By placing the goblin unit behind another unit (e.g. orcs) in front, you can with a bit of careful placement ensure that a unit charging the orcs will automatically take 6D6 hits no matter the roll on the dice. Now, the gobbos and the orcs will both take 3D6 hits each to make this work but it's a small price to pay to obliterate a killer enemy unit. It's a rude trick and I'd like to see some kind of FAQ as to whether you are allowed to launch fanatics in such a way that they go through the parent unit.

Da_White_Orc
13-03-2012, 21:17
Launching fanatics from the back of a goblin unit so they go through the parent unit. By placing the goblin unit behind another unit (e.g. orcs) in front, you can with a bit of careful placement ensure that a unit charging the orcs will automatically take 6D6 hits no matter the roll on the dice. Now, the gobbos and the orcs will both take 3D6 hits each to make this work but it's a small price to pay to obliterate a killer enemy unit. It's a rude trick and I'd like to see some kind of FAQ as to whether you are allowed to launch fanatics in such a way that they go through the parent unit.

i'd slap myself if i pulled that move

no argument here

Balerion
13-03-2012, 21:18
My fix for the Hellheart would be to keep it the exact same except for stating that the auto-miscast only happens if and when the affected Wizard(s) choose to cast a spell. It still lets the Ogre player ruin an entire magic phase, and with the starting distance between two deployed armies (and an optional dispel scroll) it still gives you ample, multi-turn protection from something like Purple Sun.

Although to be honest I don't see why you need an item to protect you from such a highly-specific threat... not every opponent can/will use the Lore of Death, and of those who do some will fail to roll Purple Sun. Plus, what's the point of giving an army an Achilles Heel if you also let them buy a cheap pair of iron shoes?




Do something about stubborn ld10 skavenslaves, maybe something like not allowing them to use general's ld.
You might as well take them out of the game at that point, since there's literally no purpose for a Ld 5 unit with that statline.

The bearded one
13-03-2012, 21:25
Launching fanatics from the back of a goblin unit so they go through the parent unit. By placing the goblin unit behind another unit (e.g. orcs) in front, you can with a bit of careful placement ensure that a unit charging the orcs will automatically take 6D6 hits no matter the roll on the dice. Now, the gobbos and the orcs will both take 3D6 hits each to make this work but it's a small price to pay to obliterate a killer enemy unit. It's a rude trick and I'd like to see some kind of FAQ as to whether you are allowed to launch fanatics in such a way that they go through the parent unit.

I taught that move to a new player once :D

Lord Inquisitor
13-03-2012, 21:26
I taught that move to a new player once :D
So it's your fault, is it? I'll blame you next time I see it... :p

The bearded one
13-03-2012, 21:38
I didn't let him launch fanatics from the back of the unit, but I did have him place the fanatic holding unit behind another unit of goblins which was about to be charged by a bretonnian lance. Fanatics pop out, bump through the unit in front and then either go through the bretonnians, or fall short and then get stepped on by the bretonnians for 2D6. So I guess it's slightly less meaner than launching the fanatics from the back of the unit as that'd increase the odds of the fanatics falling short, which is what you want for double fanatic hits.

The Low King
13-03-2012, 21:45
Some people think the Book of Hoeth is cheesy, I think the duplicate misfire and bounce rerolls are cheesy...

1) The ability to get off 2+ IF spells a turn with few dice, something that usually happens 26% of the time on 6 dice.
2) The ability to Reroll misfire result on either artilery dice on a cannon.

How is there even a comparison?


i'm sure there's some orc and goblin rule that I feel is completely valid that you think is overpowered.

Nope. There are a few things in each book i think are probably a bit too good for their cost, maybe a couple in total that are really good for their cost. There are a few things in total i think are strait Broken, none of them in the O&G book. Those items i think are broken are generally impossible to deal with using a balanced list.

How does Rune of Forging make something too good? what it is is giving the dwarf players the ability to:

1) Make their cannons better than empire ones
2) ensure that a key componant of their army, usually the main weapon against monsters, doesnt suddenly blow up.

At what point is that making them too good? (especially when the cannon starts going up in price significantly?


honestly i think running a gun line on the back table edge is straight disrespectful to the other person who took time out of their schedule to come down to the store and give you a game. and then to add insult to injury you don't even let them declare their own charges.

What do gunlines have to do with it?

Also, ONE unit is forced into an unfavourable charge on ONE turn. You then also need to have a unit to kill the unit you just forced into a charge.


but i don't want to get into a big thing here

Neither do i. However, i want to know your reasons for feeling this way and will inevitably do my best to convince you otherwise.

Harwammer
15-03-2012, 12:09
Dwarfs - NO DUPLICATE RUNES. NONE! It`s absurd. No one else gets duplicate magic items, and neither do you, you beardy git! Individual runes do not equal magic items. An equitable thing would be no duplicate rune items (a rule that already exists).

Removing duplicate runes would be tantamount to removing the following common items:
Giant blade
Sword of bloodshed
Ogre blade
Sword of strife
Sword of anti heroes (?)
Armour of destiny
Trickster's helm
Armour of fortune
Helm of discord
Spell shield
Gambler's armour
Dragonhelm
Obsidian lodestone
Talisman of endurance
Obsidian amulet
Lichebone pennant
Book of ashur(?)
Terrifying mask of eee!

DaemonReign
15-03-2012, 14:01
Removing duplicate runes would be tantamount to removing the following common items:
Giant blade
Sword of bloodshed
Ogre blade
Sword of strife
Sword of anti heroes (?)
Armour of destiny
Trickster's helm
Armour of fortune
Helm of discord
Spell shield
Gambler's armour
Dragonhelm
Obsidian lodestone
Talisman of endurance
Obsidian amulet
Lichebone pennant
Book of ashur(?)
Terrifying mask of eee!

Perfect! I think it'd be totally worth it so that we can make Daemons/Dwarves a bit more bland and maybe turn some players who love those armies away from the hobby all together! Somebody should write a request -email to GW right now! :p

Lord Inquisitor
15-03-2012, 19:26
Personally - and I know it won't be popular with the stunties - I'd just give them access to the common items and just give them a list of pre-made runic items in their book, with perhaps a few unit specific runic upgrades. Once upon a time, the Dwarfs had magic items just like everyone else, items like the Fiery Ring of Thori or the Golden Septre of Nogrim and indeed, had access to the common magic items. After all, most of the magic items in the Old World were made by Dwarfs it seems. Your Sword of Swift Slaying is probably pretty similar to an Axe with the Master Rune of Swiftness.

With all this wonderful customisability, I see the same runic combinations. What's the point then? Just give them 8-10 pre-made runic magic items like everyone else, plus a sprinkling of runic upgrades (e.g. for war machines, unit banners, etc.) within the army list itself. It brings Dwarfs in line with the other 8th ed book, it becomes a manageable list to playtest and for everyone else to get a handle on. Best of all, the Dwarfs will really hate it, it'll give them something to complain about or reminisce about the good old days for years. Possibly for ever (judging by the Squats :shifty:)! Nobody is as happy as a Dwarf with a grudge. Everybody wins!

Maoriboy007
15-03-2012, 21:13
Perfect! I think it'd be totally worth it so that we can make Daemons/Dwarves a bit more bland and maybe turn some players who love those armies away from the hobby all together! Somebody should write a request -email to GW right now! :pWell OnG , Tomb Kings Ogres and VC have all gone through it, and it was particularly rough on the first two, no particular reason Dwarves and Demons need to be exempt. GW seem to be learning so far , hopefully they'll get extra flavour as well.

The bearded one
15-03-2012, 22:31
Well OnG , Tomb Kings Ogres and VC have all gone through it, and it was particularly rough on the first two, no particular reason Dwarves and Demons need to be exempt. GW seem to be learning so far , hopefully they'll get extra flavour as well.

I think daemons and dwarfs are fairly balanced in their current magic item selection, because where other 7th/6th edition books now have 3-4 pages of magic items AND acces to the 5 pages from the BRB, daemons and dwarfs only have the 4 pages from their own books, but no common items. In their cases it wouldn't really be a "rough transition" as much as moving from their own items to the BRB items.

DaemonReign
16-03-2012, 17:13
@ Lord Inquisitor:The 'problem' of the same runic combos popping up all over the place can be remedied to a large extent with better internal balance. Those runes for making WMs more reliable are simply good, while there are other runes which mechanics appear in later books at like half the cost. It's a dated book. That doesn't impede the value of having a unique background driven selection of 'upgrades'. I think you are overlooking the 'soft' value of players being emotionally invested in their armies. At least I know if I was a Dwarf-player I would be quite turned off by what you're suggesting, and hence I wouldn't wish it on them either. The player is being given a 'choice', that in itself has value, even if your suggestion wouldn't rob Dwarves of any 'advantages' or 'strengths' they'd still be be robbed of the pleasure of sitting there tinkering back and forth with all these little runic comboes.

@Maoriboy007:
Vampire counts still have Vampiric Powers. Ogres still have Big Names. If you are suggesting that the Runic System and Daemonic Gifts will be more or less 'revamped' as far as Details go, then sure - of course it will. We might get more choices, we might get less choices, the internal balance may be better or worse. That's all depending on the Designer's whims and passion for the Army, I'd say.
Straight removal? There's no precedence what-so-ever for that. Sure it might happen, but as someone I trust in these matters so eloquently put it in another thread: GW would have lost the plot.

@The Bearded One:
Exactly right. If anything, both the Runes and the Gifts should be expanded in number/variety. Not that I am having high hopes of that happening. Just that it's what should happen.

Duke Ramulots
16-03-2012, 20:36
If runes and gifts are removed, how long until virtues, spites, and the like are taken out? do people really want the game to become-
Random player- "i'm using pointy eared empire",
Player two- "Im using short bearded empire"

The game will have lost its apeal to me at that point.

Lord Inquisitor
16-03-2012, 21:01
The "slippery slope" argument is a classic fallacy.

Make-your-own-magic-items is not the definition of dwarvishness to me. Seems to me you can achieve the same effect as most of the runic items with generic items. There's no real fluff requirement nor mechanical need for them. Besides, clearly powers like big names and vampire powers are here to stay.

The Low King
16-03-2012, 21:34
Seems to me you can achieve the same effect as most of the runic items with generic items. There's no real fluff requirement nor mechanical need for them..

'Goes through dwarf weapon rune list'....most of those effects CANT be got through common items, let alone the combinations possible using them


Besides, clearly powers like big names and vampire powers are here to stay.

They why wouldnt runes be?

TsukeFox
16-03-2012, 22:15
If runes and gifts are removed, how long until virtues, spites, and the like are taken out? do people really want the game to become-
Random player- "i'm using pointy eared empire",
Player two- "Im using short bearded empire"

The game will have lost its apeal to me at that point.

Amen- were I want a new Skaven book just for a lore attribute and powered up spells, I do not want to give up my awesome selection of magic items- I say awesome cause 8 items suck ( albeit the vamps seemed to have nothing bad in there list compared to others .)


"I have been listening to the blues since I have been in my fathers sack..."

Lord Inquisitor
16-03-2012, 22:49
'Goes through dwarf weapon rune list'....most of those effects CANT be got through common items, let alone the combinations possible using them
What, like ASF, +1, +2, +3 S or A? Improved WS or I? +1 to hit? Ignore armour saves?

Seems to me there are not that many that are really unique. The dwarfish customisation - if this is really something that makes the dwarfs dwarfish, and I'm not convinced - could be satisfied simply by lifting the "one per category" limitation, possibly at some premium. Then you could have your axe of +1 attack and +1to hit and +1 strength by buying three magic weapons from the rule book items.


They why wouldnt runes be?


Amen- were I want a new Skaven book just for a lore attribute and powered up spells, I do not want to give up my awesome selection of magic items- I say awesome cause 8 items suck ( albeit the vamps seemed to have nothing bad in there list compared to others .)


"I have been listening to the blues since I have been in my fathers sack..."

The bearded one
16-03-2012, 23:12
What, like ASF, +1, +2, +3 S or A? Improved WS or I? +1 to hit? Ignore armour saves?

Seems to me there are not that many that are really unique. The dwarfish customisation - if this is really something that makes the dwarfs dwarfish, and I'm not convinced - could be satisfied simply by lifting the "one per category" limitation, possibly at some premium. Then you could have your axe of +1 attack and +1to hit and +1 strength by buying three magic weapons from the rule book items.


Quite a couple of runes are unique

Master rune of skalf blackhammer
Master rune of smiting
Master rune of breaking
Master rune of flight (this one is pretty darn unique. Flying hammers, weeeee!)
Rune of might (one of my favourites and a real 'trick up my sleeve' type of rune. Along with other runes this one can be made to be a true monsterslaughterer, like this rune (double strenght vs t5+ models) along with the mrosmiting (D6 wounds) generally is like a giant hand with a giant newspaper smashing the arachnerok spider to a pulp)
Master rune of kragg the grim (though this one is more of an oddity to fix a quirk with runes and great weapons)
grudge rune
rune of fire (seriously :p )

Master rune of steel
Rune of fortitude
Master rune of adamant
Master rune of gromril (but silvered steel is an equivalent though, although you'd expect a lot from runed armour from a race of mastersmiths)
Rune of shielding
Rune of preservation

Master rune of valaya
Master rune of Stromni redbeard
Master rune of fear (it's pathetic, and the terror banner in the BRB is cheaper though)
Strollaz's rune
Master rune of grungni (absolute favourite)
Rune of slowness (can be combined with the master rune of challenge for absolutely hilarious results, which can be exploited even more if the unit can stand&shoot. I once put it in a unit of longbeard rangers with throwing axes, so that'd be forcing the enemy to charge, followed by 20 str5 throwing axes, and then reducing their charge distance by D6", and then moving forward in my turn and throwing another 20 axes, and finally another 20 axes in the next turn)
Rune of courage
Rune of guarding
Rune of determination (me likey!)
ryne of sanctuary (only "unique" insofar that it can be stacked on the banner, but who wants magic resistance anyway?)
Ancestor rune (The gleaming pendant is semi-fairly-tiny'ish similar)

Master rune of balance
Spelleater rune
Rune of fate
Master rune of challenge
Master rune of dismay
Rune of brotherhood
Rune of luck

Master rune of defence
Rune of forging
Master rune of disguise
rune of immolation
master rune of skewering
Rune of accuracy
Rune of fortune
Rune of penetrating
Valiant rune
Stalwart rune
flakkson's rune of seeking
rune of reloading
rune of burning

Athlan na Dyr
17-03-2012, 00:21
Thats... quite a lot of unique runes. More than I thought it would be (though the obvious counter would be how many of those do you use :shifty: )

As for Errata/FAQ

-Mortis Engine - Does its regen stack with itself? (i.e. if I have 2 engines, and both affect a unit with it's bubble regen, does the unit have a 5+ regen save or only a 6+)

-Standard of Discipline - Which ***** made it sync with Inspiring presence?

-The Miscast Table - All the problems with pit, mindrazor, gateway, Psun, Dwellers, etc. can be fixed in three ways. The first is to nerf the spells. The second is to revert to the two 1's = miscast and two 6's = IF. The third is to make the miscast table universally feared. Make it so that if you try for a six dice casting, you had better expect to lose your caster, or not have very much left of them. Lots of wounds inflicted, or Levels lost or enemies being able to cast spells. Basically make it **** your s**t up.
- How I'd do it was make it D6 + dice used for the spell, with the lower results being mediocre and the higher results (8+) being really bad.

Thats all I've got at the present.

The bearded one
17-03-2012, 00:41
Thats... quite a lot of unique runes. More than I thought it would be (though the obvious counter would be how many of those do you use :shifty: ).

I'm glad you ask. I'll colour those that I use. orange is 'sometimes' , green is 'often'.


Quite a couple of runes are unique

Master rune of skalf blackhammer
Master rune of smiting
Master rune of breaking
Master rune of flight (this one is pretty darn unique. Flying hammers, weeeee!)
Rune of might (one of my favourites and a real 'trick up my sleeve' type of rune. Along with other runes this one can be made to be a true monsterslaughterer, like this rune (double strenght vs t5+ models) along with the mrosmiting (D6 wounds) generally is like a giant hand with a giant newspaper smashing the arachnerok spider to a pulp)
Master rune of kragg the grim (though this one is more of an oddity to fix a quirk with runes and great weapons)
grudge rune
rune of fire (seriously :p )

Master rune of steel
Rune of fortitude
Master rune of adamant
Master rune of gromril (but silvered steel is an equivalent though, although you'd expect a lot from runed armour from a race of mastersmiths)
Rune of shielding
Rune of preservation

Master rune of valaya
Master rune of Stromni redbeard
Master rune of fear (it's pathetic, and the terror banner in the BRB is cheaper though)
Strollaz's rune
Master rune of grungni (absolute favourite)
Rune of slowness (can be combined with the master rune of challenge for absolutely hilarious results, which can be exploited even more if the unit can stand&shoot. I once put it in a unit of longbeard rangers with throwing axes, so that'd be forcing the enemy to charge, followed by 20 str5 throwing axes, and then reducing their charge distance by D6", and then moving forward in my turn and throwing another 20 axes, and finally another 20 axes in the next turn)
Rune of courage
Rune of guarding
Rune of determination (me likey!)
ryne of sanctuary (only "unique" insofar that it can be stacked on the banner, but who wants magic resistance anyway?)
Ancestor rune (The gleaming pendant is semi-fairly-tiny'ish similar)

Master rune of balance
Spelleater rune
Rune of fate
Master rune of challenge
Master rune of dismay
Rune of brotherhood
Rune of luck

Master rune of defence
Rune of forging
Master rune of disguise
rune of immolation
master rune of skewering
Rune of accuracy
Rune of fortune
Rune of penetrating
Valiant rune
Stalwart rune
flakkson's rune of seeking
rune of reloading
rune of burning

Kudzu
17-03-2012, 02:50
Another couple of questions for the FAQ:

Can characters join units with the "unique" unit type?
Does having scouts when your opponent does not make you automatically lose the +1 for the first turn?

Lord Inquisitor
17-03-2012, 03:08
Quite a couple of runes are unique
Okay then...

Master rune of skalf blackhammer Not duplicated by generic items, sure, but it does sort of copy the dwarf slayer ability (albeit better)
Master rune of smiting - Yeah, it'd be nice if this were a generic item, wouldn't it?
Master rune of breaking - There are several army-specific items with similar rules but yep.
Master rune of flight (this one is pretty darn unique. Flying hammers, weeeee!) (Flying hammers are unique?) Yep, one of the true unique items and definitely a candidate for an archetypical dwarf item/rune.
Rune of might (one of my favourites and a real 'trick up my sleeve' type of rune. Along with other runes this one can be made to be a true monsterslaughterer, like this rune (double strenght vs t5+ models) along with the mrosmiting (D6 wounds) generally is like a giant hand with a giant newspaper smashing the arachnerok spider to a pulp) - Unique, mechanically, but reasonably similar to the Sword of Anti-Heroes.
Master rune of kragg the grim (though this one is more of an oddity to fix a quirk with runes and great weapons) - Yeah it's not really a magical ability
grudge rune Yep, cool dwarf rune.
rune of fire (seriously :p ) Why don't we have a generic item with this ability? :cries: But the banner of eternal flame does the job of fire-weapons for the rest of us.

So that's 7 / 15 unique runes with no real equivalent in the rulebook items. Of these how many are really archetypical? Breaking, Flight and Grudge.

Master rune of steel - Yeah, this thing is a pest and I'd like to see it buried but okay.
Rune of fortitude
Master rune of adamant - These two runes give stat boosts to make a dwarf tougher. The Trickster's Helm does kind of fulfil the same role.
Master rune of gromril (but silvered steel is an equivalent though, although you'd expect a lot from runed armour from a race of mastersmiths) Yeah. Most armies have a 1+ that seems to be gone in favour of silvered steel.
Rune of shielding - Shield of Ptolos fulfils the same role. (Although I'd rather have the rune of shielding too ;))
Rune of preservation - Another case of "why don't we have a generic item that does this?"
So... lets say 4 / 9. Preservation is the only one with a really unique role. Steel too, I suppose, although that thing needs to die, far too easy to abuse.

Master rune of valaya - same role as the lichebone pennant but obviously much better
Master rune of Stromni redbeard a souped-up war banner
Master rune of fear (it's pathetic, and the terror banner in the BRB is cheaper though) yep, wailing banner
Strollaz's rune - unique. Not exactly dwarfish.
Master rune of grungni (absolute favourite) - very unique
Rune of slowness (can be combined with the master rune of challenge for absolutely hilarious results, which can be exploited even more if the unit can stand&shoot. I once put it in a unit of longbeard rangers with throwing axes, so that'd be forcing the enemy to charge, followed by 20 str5 throwing axes, and then reducing their charge distance by D6", and then moving forward in my turn and throwing another 20 axes, and finally another 20 axes in the next turn) - yep
Rune of courage - wailing banner again
Rune of guarding - grungni lite?
Rune of determination (me likey!) - bet you do
ryne of sanctuary (only "unique" insofar that it can be stacked on the banner, but who wants magic resistance anyway?) - right. plus you can achieve MR3 in other means.
Ancestor rune (The gleaming pendant is semi-fairly-tiny'ish similar) - Yep
Overall dwarfs have a lot of unique banners. Thats... 7 / 13? Valaya, grungni and determination seem to be the most dwarfish.

Master rune of balance - yep
Spelleater rune - another candidate for a common item, but yep
Rune of fate - Charmed shield
Master rune of challenge - yep
Master rune of dismay - yep
Rune of brotherhood - kind of a mundane upgrade really
Rune of luck - bit like a luckstone?
So here 4 / 13 with Balance, Challenge and Dismay being dwarfish.

Master rune of defence - unit upgrade
Rune of forging - unit upgrade
Master rune of disguise - unit upgrade
rune of immolation - unit upgrade
master rune of skewering - unit upgrade
Rune of accuracy - unit upgrade
Rune of fortune - unit upgrade
Rune of penetrating - unit upgrade
Valiant rune - unit upgrade
Stalwart rune - unit upgrade
flakkson's rune of seeking - unit upgrade
rune of reloading - unit upgrade
rune of burning - unit upgrade
0 / 13 - I don't think Dwarfs need this many upgrades to their war machine, but that's what they are, like Skulls of the Foe or the Chaos Dwarf ammo upgrade. None of these need be magic items.

So, roughly speaking there are 22 / 63 unique mechanics (assuming I've counted correctly, no promises) that don't have a counterpart in the generic items, either exactly or in general role, and this includes some that I think are unnecessary. I didn't discount those that really SHOULD be generic items, like a flaming sword for 5 points, or an amulet that makes you immune to killing blow or poison because I doubt they're adding more items to the generic list. Some of those counted could be incorporated as runic items held by special characters (e.g. The tomb blade was cut from the generic VC armoury but it's still in the book - Kemmler has it) and others I discounted could be counted as simple upgrades (the Flag of Blood Keep became an upgrade for Blood Knights).

Of the really dwarfish upgrades there are:

Breaking, Flight and Grudge, Preservation, Valaya, grungni and determination, Balance, Challenge and Dismay.

Oh look! 10 magic items! Seems like an 8th edition list to me...

I'm not out to destroy the book for dwarfs or cut out the fun. It's not like I have the ears of the developers either. But it seems that really there's not much reason why the runic system needs to exist at all. Runic items are just magic items after all.

The bearded one
17-03-2012, 03:27
Rune of might (one of my favourites and a real 'trick up my sleeve' type of rune. Along with other runes this one can be made to be a true monsterslaughterer, like this rune (double strenght vs t5+ models) along with the mrosmiting (D6 wounds) generally is like a giant hand with a giant newspaper smashing the arachnerok spider to a pulp) - Unique, mechanically, but reasonably similar to the Sword of Anti-Heroes.

It seems a bit farfetched to compare the rune of might to the sword of anti-heroes. The rune of might is an anti-monster weapon, and it allows you to effectively deal with monsters in close combat, thereby needing those pesky cannons less that everybody is always pissed off about. Slap a rune of fire on there and you're hitting hydra's in the face(s) with barely controlled glee.


Master rune of valaya - same role as the lichebone pennant but obviously much better

I wouldn't equate a banner giving the army a +2 to dispel bonus and automatically dispelling R.I.P. spells within 12" to magic resistance 1. Apart from the gigantic leap in effectiveness also the fact that the lichebone pennant protects (pha, barely!) while the Master rune of valaya dispels.


Rune of guarding - grungni lite?

It grants a 5+ wardsave to the BSB in case he carries a magical standard, to at least provide a modicum of protection. T5 and a 4+ armoursave actually don't get you all that far.


0 / 13 - I don't think Dwarfs need this many upgrades to their war machine, but that's what they are, like Skulls of the Foe or the Chaos Dwarf ammo upgrade. None of these need be magic items.

making it easy for ourselves by cutting out the section from which the most commonly used runes come, eh? :p But I wouldn't be adverse to such upgrades becoming available or already built into the warmachines themselves. They're supposed to be superior to shoddy artillery like that of the empire, after all, not identical except for the crew.

Lord Inquisitor
17-03-2012, 03:36
Well, all I was saying was that it's a "magic defence standard" but I'd agree that that's where the similarity stops. Note that I counted that rune as both not duplicated by generic items and counted is one of my 10 particularly dwarfish items.

The point is that you can achieve almost the same plethora of abilities with generics, 10 army specific options and a bunch of unit upgrades or special character items.

The Low King
17-03-2012, 03:51
LI: you just went through the runes and removed any you thought were possibly anything like one in the BRB or that you think should be in the BRB.....that means absolutely nothing. Also, removing all the engineering runes? why? because you want to try and prove a point?

The bearded one
17-03-2012, 03:52
The point is that you can achieve almost the same plethora of abilities with generics, 10 army specific options and a bunch of unit upgrades or special character items.

You could, but only after taking a really significant chunk out of this list and turning it into unit upgrades, like all those engineering runes.

But seeing as VC got to keep vampiric powers and in total they have a list of 30ish items/powers, I think there is a good chance we get to keep runes. They want to (at least I hope so) make the army appealing so I don't think there is much sense in removing the source of customisation in an army without worthwhile movement phase, no magic phase, where all units are infantry and look enormously alike (missileweapon, shield or great weapon, WS4/str3 or WS5/str4. These are the greatest differences between the 8 infantry units) and 4/5 warmachines are the same as the BRB archetype (bolt thrower, stone thrower, firethrower * spit * , cannon).

Jerry
17-03-2012, 03:59
Clarify whether models who are immune to killing blow/heroic killing blow still get armour saves to those attacks. Change war machines auto-failing characteristic tests to using the characteristics of the crew.
Clarify exactly what is and isn't an auto fail ie a roll of 1 to hit is always a fail but you can wound on a 1...

Lord Inquisitor
17-03-2012, 04:05
LI: you just went through the runes and removed any you thought were possibly anything like one in the BRB or that you think should be in the BRB.....that means absolutely nothing. Also, removing all the engineering runes? why? because you want to try and prove a point?

The engineering runes aren't magic items. They're upgrades to war machines like Skulls of the Foe are. What difference does it make if they're unit upgrades (many unnecessary it make engineers secondary too for that matter)?

This is the sort of thing I don't get. Trim down the engineering runes and make them upgrades for artillery and you get upset. Why? They're not really magic items! You can't give your Lord a rune of forging after all. And you're not losing them, we're just talking about reclassifying them! But the reclassification would be part of bringing dwarfs in line with other 8th ed armies.

Edit: and yes, I went through and took out all the items that were similar to rule book ones. That was the point! That's happened to all the 8th ed armies and I don't see why dwarfs should be exempt.

Lord Inquisitor
17-03-2012, 04:09
You could, but only after taking a really significant chunk out of this list and turning it into unit upgrades, like all those engineering runes.

But seeing as VC got to keep vampiric powers and in total they have a list of 30ish items/powers, I think there is a good chance we get to keep runes. They want to (at least I hope so) make the army appealing so I don't think there is much sense in removing the source of customisation in an army without worthwhile movement phase, no magic phase, where all units are infantry and look enormously alike (missileweapon, shield or great weapon, WS4/str3 or WS5/str4. These are the greatest differences between the 8 infantry units) and 4/5 warmachines are the same as the BRB archetype (bolt thrower, stone thrower, firethrower * spit * , cannon).

I think you'll keep the runes. But I suspect you'll wish I was right. I imagine you'll get roughly similar number of items/runes as VC but vastly less than you have now and you won't get access to common items, leaving dwarfs with one of the smallest number of upgrades and combos.

The bearded one
17-03-2012, 04:13
This is the sort of thing I don't get. Trim down the engineering runes and make them upgrades for artillery and you get upset. Why? They're not really magic items! You can't give your Lord a rune of forging after all.

I can't give him the master rune of grungni either.


I think you'll keep the runes. But I suspect you'll wish I were right. I imagine you'll get roughly similar number of items/runes as VC but vastly less than you have now and you won't get access to common items, leaving dwarfs with one of the smallest number of upgrades and combos.

* fingers in ears, swaying back and forth in the corner *


we can never win can we? Even with armybook design we're the punchingbag!

The Low King
17-03-2012, 04:57
The engineering runes aren't magic items. They're upgrades to war machines like Skulls of the Foe are. What difference does it make if they're unit upgrades (many unnecessary it make engineers secondary too for that matter)?

This is the sort of thing I don't get. Trim down the engineering runes and make them upgrades for artillery and you get upset. Why? They're not really magic items! You can't give your Lord a rune of forging after all. And you're not losing them, we're just talking about reclassifying them! But the reclassification would be part of bringing dwarfs in line with other 8th ed armies..

So...rather than having the runic items you give dwarfs unit upgrades that do exactly the same things. In other words, you rename it.....how does that change anything? Whether they are called Engineering runes or Pink Balloons of awesomeness it makes no difference, its the effects we are talking about.


Edit: and yes, I went through and took out all the items that were similar to rule book ones. That was the point! That's happened to all the 8th ed armies and I don't see why dwarfs should be exempt.

Amd you completely missed my point. You didnt just go through the runes and pick out those that had the same effects as BRB ones, you went through and found runes that have remotely similar effects/descriptions/names/numbers of letters as magic items and claimed on that basis that the rune could be removed.

For example:

Master rune of valaya - same role as the lichebone pennant but obviously much better Comparing +2 to dispell and Auto dispell all remains in play spells within 12" to magic resistance 1.

and Stromni redbeard to the Warbanner
and Courage to the wailing banner

And my favorite of all time was comparing the Rune of Might to the Sword of anti-heroes.....i mean...what? how do you even make that connection?



What GW arnt going to do is go through books like the lizardmen book and go 'Blade of realities? oh, thats kind of like Heroic killing blow, lets remove it'

Lord Inquisitor
17-03-2012, 06:28
Your point is what? That these runes are important or distinctive?

I'm sorry, a banner that makes you immune to fear and terror is very different to the wailing banner, which makes you immune to fear and terror is it? Yes you get the added bonus of actually causing it yourself with the wailing banner, but I don't see it as that different.

No army book gets its items ported wholesale. So a much more interesting question is not necessarily just which items are word for word identical to the BRB items, but which items are substantially different and unique from all rule book items. Sure, a 2+ ward against first wound suffered isn't exactly the same as the charmed shield but it isn't exactly very different either.

I think all of the examples you've quoted above bar the wailing banner were just observations on my part and were included as "unique" items not duplicates of rulebook items anyway. So you're making mountains out of molehills there. I was just saying many of the "unique" items follow the same themes as rule book items.

decker_cky
17-03-2012, 06:43
And my favorite of all time was comparing the Rune of Might to the Sword of anti-heroes.....i mean...what? how do you even make that connection?

I actually think rune of might + D6 wounds sounds like a perfect 75-100 pt weapon for 8th edition books.

Harwammer
17-03-2012, 12:32
Isn't MRoValaya more like upgrading your army to a Lvl 4 dispeller than a MR banner? It's roughly equivalent in points to lvl2->lvl 4 (but obviously you don't get the casting benefits).

PS Wow this thread has got off topic.

The bearded one
17-03-2012, 18:06
Isn't MRoValaya more like upgrading your army to a Lvl 4 dispeller than a MR banner? It's roughly equivalent in points to lvl2->lvl 4 (but obviously you don't get the casting benefits).

it indeed is quite similar to that, definately not similar to the magic resistance banner.


PS Wow this thread has got off topic.

maybe we should move this to the dwarf armybook thread.

Moses
19-03-2012, 02:08
Thats... quite a lot of unique runes. More than I thought it would be (though the obvious counter would be how many of those do you use :shifty: )

As for Errata/FAQ

-Mortis Engine - Does its regen stack with itself? (i.e. if I have 2 engines, and both affect a unit with it's bubble regen, does the unit have a 5+ regen save or only a 6+)

-Standard of Discipline - Which ***** made it sync with Inspiring presence?

-The Miscast Table - All the problems with pit, mindrazor, gateway, Psun, Dwellers, etc. can be fixed in three ways. The first is to nerf the spells. The second is to revert to the two 1's = miscast and two 6's = IF. The third is to make the miscast table universally feared. Make it so that if you try for a six dice casting, you had better expect to lose your caster, or not have very much left of them. Lots of wounds inflicted, or Levels lost or enemies being able to cast spells. Basically make it **** your s**t up.
- How I'd do it was make it D6 + dice used for the spell, with the lower results being mediocre and the higher results (8+) being really bad.

Thats all I've got at the present.

By the way the Standard of Discipline is written, it should work with Inspiring Presence. It just needs to be errata'd. I heard a good suggestion to make it "counts Leadership as +1 when taking Leadership tests.

One thing that you need to be careful of when increasing the miscast table is potential interactions with Hellheart. If it becomes too nasty, then Hellheart's power level goes up

Maoriboy007
19-03-2012, 02:59
One thing that you need to be careful of when increasing the miscast table is potential interactions with Hellheart. If it becomes too nasty, then Hellheart's power level goes upThe other thing about making miscasts more frequent/brutal is that anyone using the mild lores such as TK or OnG are pretty much unfairly penalised. The problem is the 5 or so spells that are redunculous - fix the problem where it needs fixing and start at the spells. Psun would still wreck things if it allowed ward saves and did multiple wounds, but you might mitigate some of the damage somehow.

Von Wibble
19-03-2012, 22:22
Absolutely right. Allowing ward saves for spells like this, dwellers, etc means mr has an effect also. I'd do that and have them cause 1 wound not more.

Miscasts would imo be better represented by being more brutal the more dice were used in the casting attempt. A 2 dicer should just drain power and possibly cause a wound, nothing more. A 6 dicer should be devastating, and serve you right for trying to grab so much power!

The bearded one
19-03-2012, 22:32
What I think should be the most important change concerning the 'megaspells' is allowing magic resistance wardsaves to be used against them. It makes magic resistance actually useful, as well as limiting the impact of the megaspells. Perhaps they should be allowed to be taken as in-combat wardsaves (that don't stack with other ones though, like parry) against mindrazor.

But that's just me. Magic resistance seems so pathetic right now.


Miscasts would imo be better represented by being more brutal the more dice were used in the casting attempt. A 2 dicer should just drain power and possibly cause a wound, nothing more. A 6 dicer should be devastating, and serve you right for trying to grab so much power!

Totally agree. I don't want to fear risking a dozen templeguard and my slann over some miserable 2-dice fireball, even with cupped hands as miscastprotection.

dementian
19-03-2012, 22:59
For all those that want the damage from miscasts to be increased for using more dice. I should hope you would then also decrease casting cost of d13th.

theunwantedbeing
19-03-2012, 23:20
For all those that want the damage from miscasts to be increased for using more dice. I should hope you would then also decrease casting cost of d13th.

An increase for the casting cost of Purple Sun would make more sense, given that one actually has a power level far beyond it's casting cost.

Altering the miscast chart is just pointless wishlisting, we all know it won't happen.

Athlan na Dyr
19-03-2012, 23:25
@ dementian
Why? The whole idea of the mechanic is to make smaller spells (with a low reward) safer (= lower risk) whilst the omega death spells with a power level of over 9000 (such as the d13th) are exceedingly dangerous to cast.
As such, rather than just chucking as many dice as you can at one uber spell you have to THINK about whether or not thats really the best thing. This goes for all the huge spells, why are you wanting to single out the d13th?

@ theunwantedbeing
A man can dream, can't he:rolleyes:

Maoriboy007
20-03-2012, 02:55
Absolutely right. Allowing ward saves for spells like this, dwellers, etc means mr has an effect also. I'd do that and have them cause 1 wound not more. The problem I have with single wounds is that Large monsters, Monstrous infantry, chariots etc wouldn't find the spell threatening at all. I want to unbreak the spell not neuter it. Doing D3 wounds to infantry and 2D3 to larger models means it still worries things like big model mosters without rediculously dropping them into oblivion wholesale.

Balerion
20-03-2012, 06:10
@ dementian
Why? The whole idea of the mechanic is to make smaller spells (with a low reward) safer (= lower risk) whilst the omega death spells with a power level of over 9000 (such as the d13th) are exceedingly dangerous to cast.
As such, rather than just chucking as many dice as you can at one uber spell you have to THINK about whether or not thats really the best thing. This goes for all the huge spells, why are you wanting to single out the d13th?
I'm assuming it's because D13th only comes in a single form, which necessarily requires the use of many dice (with a casting value of 25 it's not even possible to cast it non-IF with anything less than five power dice) whereas the other power spells can still be cast in their default, still-very-effective forms since they have casting values of 15 to 20 or thereabouts.

Duke Ramulots
20-03-2012, 07:24
It's possible to cast on 4 dice(6+5+5+5+lvl4) without IF, it's just really unlikely.

TsukeFox
20-03-2012, 20:02
What if-
The requirement of total powering was that one needed a 3/4 majority, out the total dice rolled, to be 6s?
No IF on two dice.

Lord Inquisitor
20-03-2012, 20:09
What I think should be the most important change concerning the 'megaspells' is allowing magic resistance wardsaves to be used against them. It makes magic resistance actually useful, as well as limiting the impact of the megaspells. Perhaps they should be allowed to be taken as in-combat wardsaves (that don't stack with other ones though, like parry) against mindrazor.

But that's just me. Magic resistance seems so pathetic right now.
It isn't just you. It would massively help the metagame. If magic resistance 3 gave you a 4+ ward against any of the insta-glib spells, we'd see a lot more people taking it and it would drop the effective power of these spells too. It's also conceivably possible - the Powerscroll got amended based on negative feedback, perhaps magic resistance could be too? Wishlisting, sure, but something that's within the realms of possibility - a simple one-line errata would do the job. Certainly more realistic than expecting the miscast table to be rewritten, for example.

Maoriboy007
21-03-2012, 00:26
It isn't just you. It would massively help the metagame. If magic resistance 3 gave you a 4+ ward against any of the insta-glib spells, we'd see a lot more people taking it and it would drop the effective power of these spells too. It's also conceivably possible - the Powerscroll got amended based on negative feedback, perhaps magic resistance could be too? Wishlisting, sure, but something that's within the realms of possibility - a simple one-line errata would do the job. Certainly more realistic than expecting the miscast table to be rewritten, for example. +1 to this

Please amend the FaQ that the Warshrines blessings only last until the Chaos players next turn.

Rhellion
21-03-2012, 13:48
So instead of a real FAQ thread, this is a thread about people whining that they think certain things are broken and want the game to completely change? Not going to happen. If you want such large changes, play ETC hammer or wait for 9th Edition. :)

Mr_Foulscumm
21-03-2012, 15:17
Tomb Kings FAQ.

All constructs are immune to poison.

Please.

The Low King
21-03-2012, 15:20
Tomb Kings FAQ.

All constructs are immune to poison.

Please.

That would be a massive nerf to poison and paticularly lizardmen who rely in skinks to take out monsters

theunwantedbeing
21-03-2012, 15:27
That would be a massive nerf to poison and paticularly lizardmen who rely in skinks to take out monsters

I'de agree, I hate it when I face off against [Empire/Bretonnians/High elves/Dark elves/Wood elves/Dwarves/Vampire Counts/Lizardmen/Ogre Kingdoms/Chaos Warriors/Chaos Daemons] with my lizardmen and my poisoned skinks don't work because the enemy army is entirely made up of tomb king constructs, this rule would make it impossible for me to win ever.

TsukeFox
21-03-2012, 16:06
That would be a massive nerf to poison and paticularly lizardmen who rely in skinks to take out monsters

Well the constructs are made out of um STONE.
But then again how are undead troops affected by poison too-?
It must be powerful anti undead killing poison

Duke Ramulots
21-03-2012, 16:17
Everything with the undead rule should be immune to poison.

TsukeFox
21-03-2012, 16:31
Everything with the undead rule should be immune to poison.

Truth.

In world of warcracK undead race is subjected to breathing & poison.

It just shows how laZy game designers are.

Balerion
21-03-2012, 16:40
Bah, stop being so literal. Poison can be corrosive or magical. There's no game-balance reason to hand out widespread immunity (all Daemons, all Undead, all Pestilens Skaven, Nurgle-themed WoC, all forest spirits, etc.) so why render a huge segment of poison-equipped units useless with an unnecessary change that doesn't even ultimately have a convincing fluff justification.

TsukeFox
21-03-2012, 16:46
Bah, stop being so literal. Poison can be corrosive or magical. There's no game-balance reason to hand out widespread immunity (all Daemons, all Undead, all Pestilens Skaven, Nurgle-themed WoC, all forest spirits, etc.) so why render a huge segment of poison-equipped units useless with an unnecessary change that doesn't even ultimately have a convincing fluff justification.

Fair enough-
However it is "corrosive" poison then why does regen work against it?

So when should we expect the next FAQ?
After or before the next army book?

Duke Ramulots
21-03-2012, 16:47
Acid is corrosive, poison either works on blood or nerves, of which undead wouldnt need so shouldn't be effected. Now that you mention it though, yes Deamons and Forrest spirits should also be immune to poison.

The bearded one
21-03-2012, 16:56
why?

Daemons certainly don't need the immunity and I'm pretty sure you can poison a tree.

N810
21-03-2012, 16:59
Holy Water and Round-up mate. :evilgrin:

The Low King
21-03-2012, 17:00
Acid is corrosive, poison either works on blood or nerves, of which undead wouldnt need so shouldn't be effected. Now that you mention it though, yes Deamons and Forrest spirits should also be immune to poison.

Magical chemicals then. The 'Poison' disrupts the magic holding the undead/construct/daemon together.

Balerion
21-03-2012, 17:09
Acid is corrosive, poison either works on blood or nerves, of which undead wouldnt need so shouldn't be effected. Now that you mention it though, yes Deamons and Forrest spirits should also be immune to poison.
It's just a catch-all term for a rule, dude. Not a medical treatise.

The Weeping Blade is probably the most iconic "poisoned" weapon in WFB, and it features a corrosive effect.

Lord Inquisitor
21-03-2012, 17:13
Yeah come on. If we were just going by fluff then ogre butchers would be immune to poison too.

... Oh, wait...

Duke Ramulots
21-03-2012, 17:27
Magical chemicals then. The 'Poison' disrupts the magic holding the undead/construct/daemon together.

If it were magical then it should be so rare that only one model could have it per army. Ive just always thought the poison rules were a bit wonky.

The Low King
21-03-2012, 17:37
If it were magical then it should be so rare that only one model could have it per army. Ive just always thought the poison rules were a bit wonky.

Why? we are in a world where the very air is magical, surely the jungles of Lustria would be filled with magical plants?

Balerion
21-03-2012, 17:47
Yeah, that makes no sense. Surely magical weapons are equally rare, yet somehow every one of my Grave Guard managed to retain an enchanted blade through the forgotten centuries of idle decay.

Lord Inquisitor
21-03-2012, 17:48
Why? we are in a world where the very air is magical, surely the jungles of Lustria would be filled with magical plants?Let me get this straight. The snakes of lustria that make up jungle swarms live in magical environments or eat magical plants, so their venom is sufficiently magical to "poison" skeletons and disrupt the magical forces holding them together but not magical enough to poison etherial troops and disrupt the magical forces holding them together?

It's simply a case of whether you want things to be balanced or fluffy. It becomes a bit of a rock-paper-scissors situation with poison being super effective against certain enemies and negated by others. Poison is already a bit wonky as it is as it negates the T stat, which some units pay a lot for, thereby making poison disproportionately effective against certain enemies (sphinxes, greater daemons, etc.). Give entire armies immunity to poison wholesale and you're going to have balance issues similar to etherials - amazing against certain armies, rubbish against others.

DaemonReign
21-03-2012, 17:55
why?

Daemons certainly don't need the immunity and I'm pretty sure you can poison a tree.

In keeping of the spirit of this thread I'll submit that I want the next Errata/FAQ to state that all Daemons are immune to non-magical attacks.
It's the only way of fixing how the Daemon Prince is overcosted.
Really. Guys. This thread is just permanently off-topic.

Lord Inquisitor
21-03-2012, 18:01
Just stop worrying and enjoy where the thread takes us. There are other threads for compilation of serious FAQ questions.

TsukeFox
21-03-2012, 18:41
Just stop worrying and enjoy where the thread takes us. There are other threads for compilation of serious FAQ questions.

Ya the one you thread you shared the link to was very will organized.

And daemons should totally lose there ward save when hit with magical weapons. Save for greater daemons-Ammendment.

Lord Inquisitor
21-03-2012, 18:50
I remember the days when daemons lost their ward saves to magical attacks. Those were the days that daemons were so incredibly underpowered a pure-daemon army was just asking to be used like a punching bag. It wasn't just that, of course, but it'd be nice if we could get daemons to the point of being balanced. I've played them when they were absurdly underpowered and I've played them when they were stupidly overpowered. Balanced would be nice.

The bearded one
21-03-2012, 19:01
Yeah come on. If we were just going by fluff then ogre butchers would be immune to poison too.

... Oh, wait...

I... I don't get it.. :p Are ogre butchers immune to poison?

Texhnolyze
22-03-2012, 03:09
I... I don't get it.. :p Are ogre butchers immune to poison?

Yep, you bet they are!

The bearded one
22-03-2012, 03:27
Yep, you bet they are!

I must've missed that! 0.o

Moses
22-03-2012, 07:20
Just stop worrying and enjoy where the thread takes us. There are other threads for compilation of serious FAQ questions.

I enjoyed that comment