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View Full Version : Why does the Iron Hands have so few dreadnoughts and terminator armours?



Deus Mechanicus
07-03-2012, 19:24
The chapter has 8 dreadnoughts and it seems that terminator armour is sparse so that tactical sargeants sometimes wear them. How come?

Inquisitor Aaron
07-03-2012, 19:27
Its because they lost much of their elite troops(The morlocks) which were encased in the holy suits at the dropsite massacre. The same goes with their dreadnoughts.

Deus Mechanicus
07-03-2012, 19:30
Then the question becomes why havent they been able to resupply in 10k years when newly founded chapters etc seem to have no problem fielding terminators and dreadnoughts?

Galvatron1701
07-03-2012, 19:36
Its because they lost much of their elite troops(The morlocks) which were encased in the holy suits at the dropsite massacre. The same goes with their dreadnoughts.

You'd think that after thousands of years, and given their relationship with the mechanicum, they'd have managed to get themselves a decent amount. Afterall it only took the Ultras a few centuries to rebuild their first company (i get they lost thousand at Istvaan but in codex terms gathering a hundred suits can't be that hard)

Kijamon
07-03-2012, 19:43
AFAIK terminator armour and dreadnoughts can not be made post heresy, the ability is lost. I guess they had a lot more to worry about with the heresy first and foremost and then getting back to full fighting strength after their losses.

Though they must be repairable, as heroes are still interred in them and I doubt they just throw a broken set of terminator armour in the bin when someone dies inside it.

Theocracity
07-03-2012, 19:43
Maybe they keep low numbers as a tribute to those who fell.

Or maybe they're just poorly fleshed out, with their few old army list differentiations justified by linking them to the only major galactic event that they're known for participating in.

Then again, I'm cynical :P.

Lothlanathorian
07-03-2012, 19:51
The ability to make Terminator Armour hasn't been lost, it's just a very long, very slow process.

Theocracity
07-03-2012, 19:56
The ability to make Terminator Armour hasn't been lost, it's just a very long, very slow process.

That's fair, but how do you have 20+ Foundings worth of successor chapters, each with their own sets of 1st Company Terminator armor, and have a Mechanicus-friendly 1st Founding chapter get the short end of the stick?

Hendarion
07-03-2012, 19:59
Easy explanation here: Because.
It is a fluff-decision to make the chapter have a story. That's all. Period.
It doesn't have to have a logical and serious explanation and there actually is none.

Theocracity
07-03-2012, 20:04
Easy explanation here: Because.
It is a fluff-decision to make the chapter have a story. That's all. Period.
It doesn't have to have a logical and serious explanation and there actually is none.

Basically, yeah.

Until some GW, FW or BL writer takes an interest in them beyond "we need a chapter to show up and have a fight," they're going to stay a chapter that's defined by its quirks, not by any logical backstory.

Harwammer
07-03-2012, 20:12
That's fair, but how do you have 20+ Foundings worth of successor chapters, each with their own sets of 1st Company Terminator armor, and have a Mechanicus-friendly 1st Founding chapter get the short end of the stick? To be fair most 1st companies don't have a full set of tactical dreadnought armour.

Perhaps the chapter got used to fighting without Termi armour and as such never saw the need to resupply?

Inquisitor Aaron
07-03-2012, 20:13
Afterall it only took the Ultras a few centuries to rebuild their first company

Well sir those are the ultrasmurfs for ya, the emperors favorites! :shifty:

But honestly for the ultramarines you're probably not losing whole suits and dreadnought chassis' seeing how the nids as far as I know go for the squishies within. You can recover the suit and the dreads its just their minus the occupant.

Now on istvaan you not only losing the occupants but your losing the suits and the dreads as well. But yes in the 10 thousand years between the heresy you would think the Iron hands would get some new suits and maybe some new dreads, but you have to think about the demands of the now split up legions and the chapters they transformed into. I believe its just the mechanicus having a hard time not only keeping up with demand but these designs themselves aren't easy to reproduce.

Just my 2 cents. :D

Lupe
07-03-2012, 20:31
The chapter has 8 dreadnoughts and it seems that terminator armour is sparse so that tactical sargeants sometimes wear them. How come?

I'm sorry, am I the only one who notices something wrong with this statement? I mean, if it was so sparse, it'd be restricted to the Chapter Master's close retinue (maybe a couple of Bodyguards, and a Chaplain or Librarian) and maybe a couple of company captains, not handed out to sergeants as if it was nothing more than an old T-Shirt.

As for the 8 dreadnoughts, I find that hard to believe, considering that at they are particularly revered members of the Chapter council...

Wyrmwood
07-03-2012, 20:58
Well, the Iron Hands are a very... Paranoid chapter. Perhaps they don't trust the mechanisms of anything fresh out of the forge, and view tactical dreadnought armour as a holy tribute instead of a practicality. A similar story with dreadnoughts, they're essentially an apotheosis for the Iron Hand, not simply a means to survive longer. Essentially, it's to do with the philosophy and cult mentality, coloured by their past.

Lupe, the Iron Hands lack a master; instead, they rely on a council of representatives from the clan-companies. Each clan-company also possesses its own mobile crawler, so the companies have an autonomy resembling the Raven Guard: each is responsible for their own recruitment, wargear, support etc. Only in times of crisis or necessity does the council come together. Ergo, they can essentially allocate wargear as they see fit, to particularly worthy heroes.

Spetulhu
07-03-2012, 21:02
They have good relations with the AdMech, true - but that relationship is still only worth so much in gear every year. I guess they spend much more time, money and influence on getting their cybernetic replacement parts than on rebuilding the armory.

All Cing Eye
07-03-2012, 22:07
A good way to justify it in the current timeline, could be due to the schism that led to the forming of the Sons of Medusa, perhaps they took a large chunk of dreadnaughts and terminator armor with them.

Chem-Dog
07-03-2012, 22:23
That's fair, but how do you have 20+ Foundings worth of successor chapters, each with their own sets of 1st Company Terminator armor, and have a Mechanicus-friendly 1st Founding chapter get the short end of the stick?

This, of course, follows the assumption that upon founding a Chapter you get given a shiny new Codex approved starter kit with a full complement of all the things codex chapters have, the available Terminator suits would trickle down to those Chapters who are fortunate enough to be well positioned and in the good graces of the powers that be.


You'd think that after thousands of years, and given their relationship with the mechanicum, they'd have managed to get themselves a decent amount. Afterall it only took the Ultras a few centuries to rebuild their first company (i get they lost thousand at Istvaan but in codex terms gathering a hundred suits can't be that hard)

Iron Hands LEGION lost something like 5-10 thousand warriors AND their Primarch on the black plains of Istvaan V.
The Ultramarines CHAPTER lost 100 men on their home turf fighting off an invasion.

The Iron Hands had no opportunity to rescue their Terminator suits from the site of the Dropsite Massacre and you can bet every salvageable component was nabbed by the traitors. The Ultramarines just had to hose their stuff down.

And it's not necessarily that hard to accumulate more, but working from scratch means those suits you do get will be used more intensively, and wear our (or get utterly destroyed) more frequently. Attrition is bad enough when you've got a decent set you can rotate through, much worse when you haven't.

Even then, the Ultramarines "rebuilding" their first company was an issue of personnel, not materiel.

DietDolphin
08-03-2012, 01:05
Maybe they keep low numbers as a tribute to those who fell.

This makes the most sense and is quite cool. I like the idea of the Iron hands do this to respect their fallen and their primarch. Only 3 primarchs died during the Heresy and Sanguinius and Horus get so much attention and their deaths have such massive influence, it's nice that Ferrus Manus gets some kind of remembrance and it's just completely forgotten.

I mean weren't the whole Salamander and Raven Guard legions present and slaughtered on Istvaan? (correct me if wrong...) They don't seem to have much trouble fielding terminators.

TheMav80
08-03-2012, 01:15
They actually probably COULD field a 100 guys in squads with Terminators, they just don't. The Iron Hands are not composed like the other chapters and may not even have a 1st Company.

They are divided into several clans, who each have their own leader and there is no central leader (like a Chapter Master) as in other Chapters. So instead of having a whole first company of Terminators, the armour is divided up among the clans, who then hand them out to the leaders of their Tactical Squads and/or other higher ranking members.

Hendarion
08-03-2012, 11:50
They actually probably COULD field a 100 guys in squads with Terminators, they just don't. The Iron Hands are not composed like the other chapters and may not even have a 1st Company.

They are divided into several clans, who each have their own leader and there is no central leader (like a Chapter Master) as in other Chapters. So instead of having a whole first company of Terminators, the armour is divided up among the clans, who then hand them out to the leaders of their Tactical Squads and/or other higher ranking members.
Hmmm. I smell heresy. ;) The Codex Astartes just isn't that respected anymore as it had been it seems.

Gimp
08-03-2012, 14:12
Raven Guard have the same reason for not fielding many Tanks because they lost most of them at the Dropsite Massacre

Galvatron1701
08-03-2012, 15:38
Iron Hands LEGION lost something like 5-10 thousand warriors AND their Primarch on the black plains of Istvaan V.
The Ultramarines CHAPTER lost 100 men on their home turf fighting off an invasion.

The Iron Hands had no opportunity to rescue their Terminator suits from the site of the Dropsite Massacre and you can bet every salvageable component was nabbed by the traitors. The Ultramarines just had to hose their stuff down.



Is it perhaps possible that Istvaan gets blown out of proportion? It was ten thousand years ago in the fluff, if it were only a matter of centuries then i'd appreciate the argument but surely thousands of years is enough time to build up a respectable amount of termy armour?

And are you honestly expecting me to believe that the tyranids killed all those veterans without their armour being too badly damaged? We're talking a murderous fight to the death here, not the kind of fight that leaves whole suits lying around in need of just a bit of paint and filler!

I also don't appreciate the CAPS.

Denny
08-03-2012, 15:42
1st Company= 100 marines. We don’t know how many Terminator suits that actually boils down to (100 veterans does not necessarily mean 100 terminators) but it give us a maximum of about 100 (though probably quite a few less).

Iron Hands have their own unique structure of 10 Clan Companies that are roughly the equivalent of Battle companies. Each therefore would have roughly 100 marines, which means roughly 10 veteran sergeants who are ‘often’ equipped with Terminator armour. This gives a maximum of 100 suits of terminator armour (though probably quite a few less).

. . . Do they really have a significant shortage of terminator armour?

Gorbad Ironclaw
08-03-2012, 16:10
Raven Guard have the same reason for not fielding many Tanks because they lost most of them at the Dropsite Massacre

I think a better reason would have been for GW to just say "Because" than passing it off as the Dropsite Massacre. It's 10.000 years ago, anything that happened there to equipment should have been irrelevant a very, very long time ago. But then GW treats time the same way they treat other numbers. Pretty things to fill out the page and look cool/impressive and then not thought about at all.

Theocracity
08-03-2012, 16:39
1st Company= 100 marines. We don’t know how many Terminator suits that actually boils down to (100 veterans does not necessarily mean 100 terminators) but it give us a maximum of about 100 (though probably quite a few less).

Iron Hands have their own unique structure of 10 Clan Companies that are roughly the equivalent of Battle companies. Each therefore would have roughly 100 marines, which means roughly 10 veteran sergeants who are ‘often’ equipped with Terminator armour. This gives a maximum of 100 suits of terminator armour (though probably quite a few less).

. . . Do they really have a significant shortage of terminator armour?

I will point out that just because a First Founding Chapter only has 100 members of the 1st Company doesn't mean that their Chapter armory only has 100 max suits of Terminator armor. I'm sure they'd have some kept in reserve - for repair, emergencies, casualties, or just plain backup. After all, they used to be much larger as Legions, and they need something to give the successor chapters.

Iron Hands may have lost a lot of their stock, and therefor might be stingier about giving it out.

Though as you point out, it could also be due to their decentralized nature.

jareddm3
08-03-2012, 16:50
I can think of two possibilities for why it seems they have so few dreadnoughts, and they kinda intertwine.

The first is that it's not that they have few dreadnought chassis, but few marines that they feel are worthy of being entombed. The second is that the Iron Hands have better methods of fixing up marines. For most chapters, if a marine was a well respected brother of the chapter and he wouldn't be able to survive otherwise, he gets put into a dreadnought. For the Iron Hands, their mastery of advanced bionics and replacement limbs means a grievously injured marine whose been sliced in half at the waist and had both hearts riddled with bullets will be up and running on a pair of bionic legs and a mechanical heart in no time, whereas he would've been entombed had he been in another chapter. Loss of body parts is no excuse for being put in a dread. Only those who have mastered the path of metal and steel the Iron Hands set for themselves and have removed themselves from the flesh in mind, body, and soul are deserving of being entombed.

Recent artwork that's come out for the Iron Hands has shown that being entombed is something that must be earned through a slow and steady replacement of flesh with steel. And the Iron Hands aren't going to compromise that even if it means having a few dreadnoughts empty.

Twisted Ferret
08-03-2012, 17:26
I like to think that it's not that they have an abnormally small amount terminator armor, but that they utilize it differently. If they revere it and consider it something like one step below being united with a dreadnought, then it would make sense if they distribute it to various worthy champions rather than keeping it all in one place. It's almost like a promotion in that sense. Their apparently decentralized nature would also contribute to this.

I feel like they should have more dreadnoughts than other chapters, though. I see no reason why a First Founding legion, with a devotion to machinery and excellent relations with the AdMech, should suffer a lack of dreadnoughts due to events 10,000 years in the "past"... quite the opposite, in fact.

It'd fit in well with the character of their legion to be dreadnought-heavy - a good way to differentiate the Iron Hands in gameplay terms.

Lupe
08-03-2012, 18:28
I see no reason why a First Founding legion, with a devotion to machinery and excellent relations with the AdMech, should suffer a lack of dreadnoughts due to events 10,000 years in the "past"... quite the opposite, in fact.

It'd fit in well with the character of their legion to be dreadnought-heavy - a good way to differentiate the Iron Hands in gameplay terms.

Okay, I just had a moment of fridge brilliance here. Dreadnought armor was invented to preserve a severely crippled Astartes. Much more than that, it actually *requires* the pilot's body to be, for lack of a better term, alive.

Now, consider the Iron Hands resort to bionics replacements even without sustaining injuries. One of their veterans should already be more machine than human, before even factoring in the bionics that are actually needed to patch up wounds. So, when an Iron Hands marine suffers crippling injury, there might not be enough organic tissue left to pilot the dreadnought.

Fluxeor
08-03-2012, 23:54
More Machine than Man!

Slightly amended since it can be read above, But Lupe pretty much covers my thinking behind them having less Termis and Dreads. I don't believe they have less suits or chassis, but I'm more inclined to believe that thier extensive use of Bionics hinders thier ability to actually utilize what resources they have to full effect.

Twisted Ferret
09-03-2012, 03:40
Fridge brilliance indeed. :D That's actually not a bad explanation! However, I can't think of many better ways to differentiate Iron Hands game-wise than to have them have lots of Terminator suits and dreadnoughts; that fits in with their fluff and flavor... well, except for the part where it doesn't fit in with the "they lost their dreadnoughts in the Massacre" fluff, if that is indeed official.

Probably written by McNeill if so. /pet hatred

Sai-Lauren
09-03-2012, 08:38
The first is that it's not that they have few dreadnought chassis, but few marines that they feel are worthy of being entombed. The second is that the Iron Hands have better methods of fixing up marines. For most chapters, if a marine was a well respected brother of the chapter and he wouldn't be able to survive otherwise, he gets put into a dreadnought. For the Iron Hands, their mastery of advanced bionics and replacement limbs means a grievously injured marine whose been sliced in half at the waist and had both hearts riddled with bullets will be up and running on a pair of bionic legs and a mechanical heart in no time, whereas he would've been entombed had he been in another chapter. Loss of body parts is no excuse for being put in a dread. Only those who have mastered the path of metal and steel the Iron Hands set for themselves and have removed themselves from the flesh in mind, body, and soul are deserving of being entombed.

Could even be that the damaged body parts have already been replaced with mechanical replacements, so it's just a case of swapping out the damaged parts for new ones.

I like Lupe's idea that there's simply not enough left to run a Dreadnought as well.

El_Machinae
09-03-2012, 12:41
That requires a bit more shoe-horning for the Terminators, suggesting that they cannot interface the terminators with bionics effectively. That just doesn't follow, because it's a classic meme of a borg adding even more mechanics to the body when they're going to do heavy combat.

Do their special rules allow them to take bionic upgrades that make them roughly equivalent to a terminator?

Sai-Lauren
09-03-2012, 15:01
Regarding making armour - that's probably more the Salamanders shtick.

Iron Hands are very closely allied with the AM and are technophiles, but that doesn't necessarily mean they can make or procure all the equipment they want, or even that they want to (if they're that heavily indoctrinated into the Machine Cult, they could be waiting for it's secrets to be fully revealed to them, and anything they do in the meantime that's not been sanctified by the AM themselves could potentially offend the Machine God).

Plus their tech priest equivalents could be taking more time in what in other chapters would normally be chaplain or officer decisions, or simply making bionics, leaving them with less time to manufacture the more time-intensive equipment like Terminator Armour, meaning that they can just about replace normal levels of loss.

Twisted Ferret
09-03-2012, 18:23
^ A good point. That might explain why they don't have more Terminator armor than other chapters*, however, but not why they can't at least have a "normal" amount!

My objection doesn't really lie with the lack of a plausible background explanation, though, so much as with the concept that the Iron Hands would have fewer Terminator suits or dreadnoughts than other chapters in the first place. It just runs counter to their other background and general feel: they're technophiles and a highly mechanized chapter... what better way to show this than extra Terminators or dreadnoughts? Some extra tanks and heavy weapons is about all we can do, otherwise, but that's also not suitable - they're all about replacing the flesh with machinery, and dreadnoughts are pretty much the apotheosis of that idea. Tanks are machines you drive. Dreadnoughts are you becoming the machine.

*Although other chapters are apparently able to acquire enough [Equipment X] to differentiate themselves...


[transhumanism signature]
Best signature I've ever seen. :) Using knowledge to improve our lives is the most noble pursuit of all, and I'm glad to see someone spreading awareness about the possibilities our exponentially accelerating technological abilities give us. The Omnissiah's blessings upon you, sah!

jareddm3
09-03-2012, 18:58
- they're all about replacing the flesh with machinery, and dreadnoughts are pretty much the apotheosis of that idea. Tanks are machines you drive. Dreadnoughts are you becoming the machine.

Are they? Dreads are slow and lumbering, not to mention easy targets. Sure they have a ton of armor, but their form is not the divine astartes form. The Iron Hands bionics are most likely far more sophisticated than a dread, maintaining the majority of their mobility as well as staying true to astartes form. Plus whatever bonus features the devices offer them. I still feel that Iron Hands don't have a lot of dreads because they don't need them. The Salamanders may craft amazing pieces of armor or weaponry, but the Iron Hands would have access to all the other technological advances the AM have. Things like advanced sensors, more efficient heavy weapon's mounts, or stronger/flexible alloys. Stuff the AM usually horde for themselves.

Do I think they have as many dreads as a normal chapter? Yes. Do I think those dreads get filled as frequently? No.

The Terminator armor issue is still a bit weird for me.

TheMav80
09-03-2012, 19:13
Fridge brilliance indeed. :D That's actually not a bad explanation! However, I can't think of many better ways to differentiate Iron Hands game-wise than to have them have lots of Terminator suits and dreadnoughts; that fits in with their fluff and flavor... well, except for the part where it doesn't fit in with the "they lost their dreadnoughts in the Massacre" fluff, if that is indeed official.

Probably written by McNeill if so. /pet hatred

Well they can be differentiated by having squad leaders wear Terminator Armour (which sadly can only be done with Space Wolves) and having Iron Fathers as a unit entry, which no book has.

Lothlanathorian
09-03-2012, 20:03
And are you honestly expecting me to believe that the tyranids killed all those veterans without their armour being too badly damaged? We're talking a murderous fight to the death here, not the kind of fight that leaves whole suits lying around in need of just a bit of paint and filler!


Yes. Since Terminator Armour is so damn hard to destroy, it wouldn't be as if all of the suits were cut up into tiny pieces, it would be more like one, good hole in each suit where a bio-weapon (snail-shooting gun, diamond hard fingernails, etc.) managed to penetrate the armour and mortally wound the wearer. Also, since Sgts. don't wear helmets, I would expect all of their armour was intact and only the heads were missing :p

Drongol
10-03-2012, 03:12
Remember, even though Marines are supposedly able to adapt to new ideas, they remain in fact extremely hidebound, ideologically. As such, it's entirely possible that the Iron Hands developed their tactics during a time in which they had very little suits of Terminator armor and Dreadnoughts and things haven't been brought up to speed in the thousands of years since.

Same for the Raven Guard, only moreso. Although, I admit, I'm biased here: I think Space Marines should remain a terror force and not have tanks at all, but rely on drop pods and the like. So I'm very willing to accept a low-vehicle Marine army.

El_Machinae
10-03-2012, 11:35
Do their special rules allow them to take bionic upgrades that make them roughly equivalent to a terminator?


Best signature I've ever seen. :) Using knowledge to improve our lives is the most noble pursuit of all, and I'm glad to see someone spreading awareness about the possibilities our exponentially accelerating technological abilities give us. The Omnissiah's blessings upon you, sah!

Thanks. I figure the average 40k enthusiast has transhumanist leanings. I want to remind people that how we each spend our time, money, and nonrenewables will affect the rate that humanity progresses, the time in which we'll cure aging, and when (and if) we ever become spaceborne. Some companies take your consumer spending, and turn it into luxury vacations for their execs. Some companies accept your money, and turn it into R&D. Soda pop companies are willing to sell you diabetes while you watch a sitcom, so how you spend your productive and leisure time affects who gets paid to do what they do.

madd0ct0r
11-03-2012, 14:56
I think this thread has pretty much nailed everything down:

100 suits of termie armour spread between 10 clans gives you ten sargents each with the armour. Presumably they sometimes fight together as a retinue, but the independance trait of the chapter would make them more likely to lead their own squads.

If other chapters have more then 100 suits (to account for swapinng parts out, repairs ect) then the same would apply to the Iron Hands, with the spares also split equally between clans (and kpet as spares still)

and as for the dreads, I like all of the explanations.

1) Usual number are shared amongst the clans
2) being entombed in a dread is the philisophical goal of an Iron Hand, not a quick hospital visit
3) likewise, with wounds that other chapters would need to resort to a dread to keep going, the Iron Hand marine simply 'upgrades' a little more, or never recieved the wounds due to previous upgrades to start with.
4) It's extremely rare for a marine to have accomplished the spiritual journey, have just the right sort of wound AND still be enough in one piece for entombment.
5) The Iron hands are not going to be flexible about this.

Hawkkf
12-03-2012, 04:12
Remember, even though Marines are supposedly able to adapt to new ideas, they remain in fact extremely hidebound, ideologically. As such, it's entirely possible that the Iron Hands developed their tactics during a time in which they had very little suits of Terminator armor and Dreadnoughts and things haven't been brought up to speed in the thousands of years since.

Same for the Raven Guard, only moreso. Although, I admit, I'm biased here: I think Space Marines should remain a terror force and not have tanks at all, but rely on drop pods and the like. So I'm very willing to accept a low-vehicle Marine army.


I think this is correct. After the massacre, they had fewer terminator and dreadnought armors. They probably disseminated the remaining termninator suits and replacements among the commanders. Meanwhile only the greatest marines were considered worthy of the remaining dreadnought armors. While marines do adapt very well, they are even more devoted to the ideals set down while thier primarchs still walked among them. By the time they were able to return to full strength, the new tactics and fighting style had already become a part of who they are.

Brother Fenix
27-05-2012, 07:14
Hope this thread isn't too old...

What's interesting about this whole discussion, is in the previous addition of Codex Space Marines (the one that had chapter traits) the Iron Hands went in a very different direction as far as Dreadnoughts.

There two traits were:

1) Scions of Mars (Which allowed for a Techmarine HQ, essentially the "Master of the Forge"
2) Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients (Which allowed them to have MORE Dreadnoughts, not less)

Seems kind of contradictory to some of the fluff, which actually for the most part isn't very recent, that indicated there being only 8 dreadnoughts (not sure where this came from, Index Astartes?). If there were only 8 and you could field 6 in a small skirmish, I would argue that they probably have lots of dreadnoughts.

Also people talk about the Drop-Site Massacre destroying Iron Hands Terminators AND Dreadnoughts. However, my reading of the Horus Heresy series indicates that the Morlocks were made up of mostly Terminators, I don't recall it saying tons of Dreadnoughts. In addition the Iron Hands that fought with Ferrus Manus at the Massacre were only a small percentage of the Legion, unlike the Salamanders and Raven Guard, so it would seem like although they may be low on Terminators after loosing the Morlocks, Dreadnoughts would still be more plentiful.

ehlijen
27-05-2012, 08:43
I have to counter that with: most chapters only have a 100 veterans and you get to field 60 in one list. That doesn't mean chapters have veterans to throw into every meatgrinder they find. The Iron hands revere their dreadnaughts more. They don't actually have that few less than other chapters; few chapters have more than a dozen.

They were given that trait mostly because it removed the limit on venerable dreadnaughts as well. The Iron hands keep their dreadnaughts safer than other chapters and as a result have more venerable ones.

As for termie armour, the Iron hands were said to be a stubborn and steadfast chapter. If it took them a thousand years to replenish their terminator suit stock then they've had a thousand years to develop tactics around terminator sergeants leading power armour squads to become dogmatic about. It could literally be that no living non-dreadnaught Iron hand remembers terminator squad tactical doctrine first hand and thus there's just no training program.

Harwammer
27-05-2012, 11:37
You could fluff away the 'Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients' rule against the alleged 'only 8 dreads' piece with battlefield tactics; perhaps when Ironhands deem it neccessary to deploy a dread they generally deem it neccessary to deploy most/all of them? Or perhaps they deploy these fallen heroes in a squad formation! ...okay, maybe not :p

jareddm3
27-05-2012, 12:57
The new book Wrath of Iron disproves the only 8 dreads bit and the fact that they're low on Terminator armour.

Brother Fenix
27-05-2012, 17:27
The new book Wrath of Iron disproves the only 8 dreads bit and the fact that they're low on Terminator armour.

Hopefully providing an explanation to perceptions, or perhaps just altering the fluff altogether.

Col. Tartleton
28-05-2012, 17:25
I think people confuse hating the sins of the flesh and a cult of purity and stoicism with the slightly different although compatible Cult of the Machine. The Iron Hands despise human weakness and seek to purify themselves in the machine. The Adeptus Mechanicus seeks transcendence in the machine. The Iron Hands loathe their weakness and excise it.

Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Such is the doctrine of the Iron Hands. The Flesh is weak. That's not just a description of the flesh as weak, it's the equivalence of the two words. Flesh and blood men are synonymous with failure in the eyes of the Iron Hands, and failure is not an option. It is better to cut off the hand or foot than to let the body become corrupted by sin. In it's place blessed iron and holy steel. Unyielding in the purpose of righteousness. Only the most pure shall be exalted in the eternal life of the machine. The Dreadnought is the ultimate manifestation of the Omnissiah. As the Emperor became a God through the Apotheosis of the Throne, so too shall the sinful mortals be exalted as his Angels. They shall be called Dreadnought, for They Shall Know No Fear.

MajorWesJanson
28-05-2012, 19:02
The new book Wrath of Iron disproves the only 8 dreads bit and the fact that they're low on Terminator armour.

Can't wait to read it, especially having an Iron Hands successor as my own chapter.

the old fluff came from the book Iron Hands, I think Jonathan Green?, which while pretty good, is from Generation 1/1.5 Black Library, as opposed to the current roughly generation 3.

madd0ct0r
30-05-2012, 15:03
I think people confuse hating the sins of the flesh and a cult of purity and stoicism with the slightly different although compatible Cult of the Machine. The Iron Hands despise human weakness and seek to purify themselves in the machine. The Adeptus Mechanicus seeks transcendence in the machine. The Iron Hands loathe their weakness and excise it.

Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Such is the doctrine of the Iron Hands. The Flesh is weak. That's not just a description of the flesh as weak, it's the equivalence of the two words. Flesh and blood men are synonymous with failure in the eyes of the Iron Hands, and failure is not an option. It is better to cut off the hand or foot than to let the body become corrupted by sin. In it's place blessed iron and holy steel. Unyielding in the purpose of righteousness. Only the most pure shall be exalted in the eternal life of the machine. The Dreadnought is the ultimate manifestation of the Omnissiah. As the Emperor became a God through the Apotheosis of the Throne, so too shall the sinful mortals be exalted as his Angels. They shall be called Dreadnought, for They Shall Know No Fear.

Very nicely put, although i did have a fleeting image of dreadnoughts with big wings and trumpets.

Veteran Sergeant
30-05-2012, 17:47
That's fair, but how do you have 20+ Foundings worth of successor chapters, each with their own sets of 1st Company Terminator armor, and have a Mechanicus-friendly 1st Founding chapter get the short end of the stick?
Because GW sells Terminator models to people who have DIY chapters too, lol.

It's more fluff inconsistency, that's all.

Sir_Turalyon
31-05-2012, 22:34
Where did the idea of Iron Hands being short of Terminator suits come from, anyway? Last I checked their background, they were issuing the suits to seregants because of their inspirational qualities. Being technophiles with all that flesh is weak doctrine, Iron Hands marines are more impressed by a leader in hulking, durable armour than one waving back banner. As previously stated, number of seregants in a standard size chapter more or less equals size of 1st company.

Lord Damocles
02-06-2012, 20:13
Where did the idea of Iron Hands being short of Terminator suits come from, anyway?
Lexicanum attributes it to the Index Astartes article ('Terminators and Veteran Sergeants After the events of the battle of Istvaan V the Iron Hands lost most of their veteran forces. Therefore, suits of Terminator armour are even more rare than is normally the case. Due to this, the deployment of full Terminator Squads is rare. However sergeants are often equipped with suits of Terminator armour as the inspirational value they provide to their squads is invaluable' (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_Hands)).

However, the part about why Sergeants wear Terminator armour is plain wrong, and the claim that the Iron Hands have any more of a lack of suits than other Chapters isn't supported by the source in question.

'The Iron Hands revere the limited number of Terminator suits and Dreadnoughts that they possess, and treat them with the utmost respect and devotion. Entire squads of Terminators are rare, however, for the inspiration they create amoungst the ranks is better served when they act as leaders of individual squads.'
'Index Astartes: Hand of Justice' , in White Dwarf 262, pg.68

...Beacuse [I]all Chapters have limited numbers of Terminator suits and Dreadnoughts.

Brother Fenix
03-06-2012, 01:53
'The Iron Hands revere the limited number of Terminator suits and Dreadnoughts that they possess, and treat them with the utmost respect and devotion. Entire squads of Terminators are rare, however, for the inspiration they create amoungst the ranks is better served when they act as leaders of individual squads.'
'Index Astartes: Hand of Justice' , in White Dwarf 262, pg.68

...Beacuse [I]all Chapters have limited numbers of Terminator suits and Dreadnoughts.

Very true, I agree with your last point, but to help make my point from above, you could also read the quote this way:

'The Iron Hands revere the limited number of Terminator suits and Dreadnoughts

And separate limited numbers of terminator suits, which they revere, but they also revere their dreadnoughts... Maybe a bit of a stretch, but still Heed the Wisdom of the Ancients.

Sqallum
03-06-2012, 16:59
Hmmm. I smell heresy. ;) The Codex Astartes just isn't that respected anymore as it had been it seems.

I like to think this, as I do not like the idea of THE IRON HANDS, the chapters who are closest to the Mechanicum (who produce Terminator armour, funnily enough :D) having tiny amounts of Terminator armour :mad:

Sqallum
03-06-2012, 17:01
They actually probably COULD field a 100 guys in squads with Terminators, they just don't. The Iron Hands are not composed like the other chapters and may not even have a 1st Company.

They are divided into several clans, who each have their own leader and there is no central leader (like a Chapter Master) as in other Chapters. So instead of having a whole first company of Terminators, the armour is divided up among the clans, who then hand them out to the leaders of their Tactical Squads and/or other higher ranking members.


I like to think this, as I do not like the idea of THE IRON HANDS, the chapters who are closest to the Mechanicum (who produce Terminator armour, funnily enough :D) having tiny amounts of Terminator armour :mad:

Brother Fenix
01-07-2012, 22:22
Just finished "Wrath of Iron" and...

Not that this is the be all end all in Iron Hands fluff, but the organizational chart in the book would seem to indicate that an Iron Hands Clan (Company) has maybe 7-8 suits of terminator armor and 7 or so dreadnaughts.

MajorWesJanson
02-07-2012, 04:04
Just finished "Wrath of Iron" and...

Not that this is the be all end all in Iron Hands fluff, but the organizational chart in the book would seem to indicate that an Iron Hands Clan (Company) has maybe 7-8 suits of terminator armor and 7 or so dreadnaughts.

Which fits with high numbers of dreadnoughts and average or low suits of terminator armor. We do see terminator armor grouped for command squads/retinue though.

Lord Damocles
02-07-2012, 17:27
7-8 suits of Tactical Dreadnought Armour is pretty average compared to the numbers seen elsewhere.

eg.:
The Ultramarines have 74 in the 1st Company in the 3rd ed. Codex: Space Marines
The Blood Angels board Sin Of Damnation with ~80 Terminators

Which looks like yet another nail in the coffin for the 'lack of Terminator Armour' claim(s).

Zombiecrackers
02-07-2012, 18:24
The ability to make Terminator Armour hasn't been lost, it's just a very long, very slow process.

Yep the Mechanicus take their time with things and even when its made it takes them awhile to give it up, just like titans take tons of time to make and the Mechanicus hate lending them out unless the situation really needs them because they dont want them being destroyed or being tainted.

Beast GTS
18-07-2012, 10:28
Long time lurker, first time poster here: I think there is a bit of fluff inconsistency, but also time-scale and point-of-view issues. The Iron Hands Novel was set during the 13th Black Crusade (999.M41) whereas Wrath of Iron is during the Purging of Contqual (812.M41) so it's possible they've lost some in the ~200 years between. And it's Gdolkin who says there are no more than 8 dreadnoughts (and they've all got power fists) but since he wants to be one it's possible he's understating their number to increase their importance.

From a gaming angle I've seen players use Dreadknights count-as Dreadnoughts, and I'm building some heavy cyborg marines & techmarines to count-as Terminators (dual bolters as stormbolters, servo-arms as power fists, etc.). I'm more annoyed that Black Templars get BS4 servitors while everyone else only has BS3...

williamsond
18-07-2012, 11:17
because the iron hands think dreanougts are for quitters :)