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laribold
07-03-2012, 21:17
Right then, all of the armies in WH have their strengths and weaknesses and I was wondering which one people thought came out on top for sheer staying power.

Which army can take the most punishment and still come back for more?

The floor is open for your general thoughts and ramblings...

Rosstifer
07-03-2012, 21:38
I think Warriors can be.
My Warrior list I'm currently using has a block of Knights, 2 blocks of Warriors, 2 Warshrines and Characters. Everything is at least Toughness 4 with a 4+ Armour and a 6+ Ward. High stats across the board add resilience towards uberspells. Once the Shrines get going, the Knights often have a 3++ Ward, and 3++ Ward, 1+ Armour Save is about as resilient as it gets!

So yeah, if we ignore Marauders (and even they can be tough with MOT, HW/S) I think Warriors are probably the toughest army, model for model.

Dwarves and especially Lizardmen deserve a mention too. As do Bretonians, with the universal 2+ Save and effectively a 5+ Ward they are very hard to kill.

Gav2k
07-03-2012, 22:43
The initial thought goes right to Warriors, but Ogres'll have chunky staying power too.

Andy p
07-03-2012, 23:04
Warriors without a doubt.

Ogres can soak up damage, but that's going to turn against them pretty quickly.

Gloryseeker
07-03-2012, 23:05
Which army can take the most punishment and still come back for more?


VC they just keep comming back. Average of 11 zombies back a turn is pretty good.

Tayrod
07-03-2012, 23:06
On a model per model basis? Warriors of Chaos hands down. On a army basis, Im thinking Vampire counts with lots of necromancers. They really do come back for more. Litteraly.

Phazael
07-03-2012, 23:09
Warriors, hands down. Their high statline makes them pretty much impervious to most of the major kill spells in the game and hard as nails in close combat. With the Chosenstar, Standard of Ecstacy, and Stubborn Crown, they can essentially put three unbreakable blocks on the table, if they want.

Lizardmen backed by a Light Slaan would be a close second.

Lord Inquisitor
07-03-2012, 23:32
I'm not sure I'd vote Warriors unless you consider the 3+ ward shenanigans as a staple. Dwarfs and Chaos Dwarfs are capable of equally tough if not tougher infantry. Bull Centaurs are phenomenally tough.

Phazael
08-03-2012, 00:12
Lets say you disregard the chosenstar tactic, that still leaves you with the Standard and the Crown, on units with extremely strong statlines and armor saves. Dwarves also have the issue of low initiative making them fodder for a variety of spells.

Jind_Singh
08-03-2012, 03:10
I vote for the my Goblins - we take a beating each and every game and I'll be down to a handful of models - but their resiliance is such I can beat right back!

It's never game over for them - they will force you to roll dice to the bitter end - my Empire is not even close!

Why
08-03-2012, 03:25
WOOD ELVES! Obviously. No just kidding.

Probably Warriors because of the OP statline, I would put skaven as second because not many armies can cause 600 wounds :p

m1acca1551
08-03-2012, 04:04
Woc easily after that id say vc and skaven purely for the raising of new minis and skavens sheer numbers make them extremley resilient to all but the most concentrated artillery and magic.

swiftshadow14
08-03-2012, 05:14
Lizards with a Life Slann by far. The can regrow, are overall pretty tough, can get tougher with spells and get regen. This is army can take sooo much abuse.
PS just won a GT with a life slann lizard list because no one could kill my units.

Duke Ramulots
08-03-2012, 05:33
While warriors are durable, when you can have army wide 2+/5++ saves with life magic to back you up that's nothing to laugh at. Right after that I would go with Life Slaan. Then a really far third Warriors, while tough, most of the army is without wards and they have no way to replenish numbers.

Manling
08-03-2012, 07:12
Bretonnians!!11!!!1ONE!
2+ armr no reduction in movement and a garunteed Ward save against all attacks and gets better the higher the strength
PLenty of cheap horde units and access to 3 great lores to regrow and toughen and boost attacks.
Most durable and Mobile amy in the game

thesheriff
08-03-2012, 07:39
Vampires maxed out on T5, 5++ (4++ with a Mortis Engine) and horde zombies. At 2k, you can get 26 Crypt horrors. Coupled with your killer magic phase and it has to be easily the best army for durability. Honorable mention goes to saurus heavy Lizards with Life Slaan.

thesheriff

Jerry
08-03-2012, 08:18
Bretonnians are hands down the most durable army out there. You can have 20 point knights as a core choice, now you might say sure, so do empire but the difference is you get a ward save on every knight. Chaos warriors are 15pts each and T4 but at max durability can have a 3+ armour save and a 5+ parry, 6+ ward. You can't count on eye of the gods from shrine dropping 3+ wards on everything but there is no luck in getting 2+ armour saves, 6+ ward save and 5+ ward against everything S5 and above, which these days is a lot more than you would think considering all the great-weapon hordes out there. Not to mention Bretonnian knights will get into combat a lot faster than chaos warriors.
With 2 warshrines chances are a chaos warrior army will probably be the most durable army out there but relying on an expensive unit buffer than will auto-die to dwellers, purple sun, pit of shades, etc. isn't my cup of tea.
^Bias opinion from a Bretonnian player.

Rosstifer
08-03-2012, 08:44
With 2 warshrines chances are a chaos warrior army will probably be the most durable army out there but relying on an expensive unit buffer than will auto-die to dwellers, purple sun, pit of shades, etc. isn't my cup of tea.
^Bias opinion from a Bretonnian player.

How would they auto die? Dwellers - Warshrines are S4, Purple Sun and Pit - They have I5. They are in fact one of the most resilient units in the game.

But I agree Brets are very tough. Pity about the T3 though.

knightime98
08-03-2012, 09:14
With question as been said, WoC..

What everyone has failed to mention is DoC. The built in 5+ Ward is nothing to Scoff at...

DoC just took 1st place at the local tourney with 20-0 victories in all 3 games.. Perhaps there may have been a 18-2 or such but for the most part, he tabled all 3 opponents.

WoC needs to be hit with a nerf bat, especially to the foot marauders (4 pts, seriously???) that can have Great Weapons for 5pts. Empire gets charged twice that, for the difference of a 4+ armor save (which is negated against a GW from marauders to a 6+.. what deal for the Empire, right? )

It is my opinion that the best Ward Save through the entire game should be a 4+. The only exception is if a character has a magic item that has a ward save specific to one type of attack,spell and so on. For instance, if you have a cloak that grants a 2+ Ward vs flaming attacks. Once again, this would only apply to the character and not his unit.

The WoC banner of I'll never break no matter what needs to go. I wouldn't mind if it were only on doubles.. However, if you roll a single 1 in the batch they stick too. It leads to about a 70% overall standing (even if they are rolling on snake eyes with a reroll). Beyond a bit much...

Yes, sticking around goes to WoC - First Place..

Morkash
08-03-2012, 09:36
Problem with Daemons is that their Core units are mostly T3. So you're looking at a T3 model with a 5+ Ward. For 12 points. They aren't weak, in terms of power Bloodletters are ace, no doubt, but they lack staying power. The Great Unclean One adds a certain resilience, just because he won't ever die unless eating 3 cannon balls per turn.
Lore of Life definately helps Daemons, but nevertheless they are not that resilient an army. They just kill everything in sight and thus survive, but they do not excel in sticking around on their own.

My vote goes to Nurgle and/or Tzeentch WoC as well. High armour saves, plus the bonus of a Mark, plus Knights, resilient heroes, good stats...yeah, Warriors tend to stick around. In addition, they can even win a round of close combat, 2 WS5 S4 attacks per head is nothing to sniff at.

The Legion of Azgorh can also achieve similar resilience, but as Dwarves they are slower than WoC and are more vulnerable to initiative based spells. On the other hand, they have a devilish arsenal of warmachines as well...and the K'daii Destroyer is one of the most resilient units in the game. Only strength 4? Pah, try another day, peasant!

Snake1311
08-03-2012, 09:57
Lol @ two people suggesting Ogres :) they pay a minimum of 10 points per T4 wound; thats worse resilience than pretty much everything else bar high elves (I'd say even dryads are tougher because of the conditional ward save).

My vote goes to Brets. High armour all round, scaling ward save, inbuilt MR, and cavalry - which of course means less of getting run down after a lost combat.

Gazak Blacktoof
08-03-2012, 11:38
I've not faced or used a warriors of chaos army in a long time, so my vote has to go for Brets for the same reasons as Snake.


My vote goes to Brets. High armour all round, scaling ward save, inbuilt MR, and cavalry - which of course means less of getting run down after a lost combat.

Weapon skill 4 where it counts and cheap infantry that can also benefit from a ward save, flying cavalry and a ward save for monstrous mounts also help to make them ridiculously tough. I've had units of executioners and greatswords ground out or fight bitterly for a win against knights of the realm on more than one occasion.

Andy p
08-03-2012, 13:34
With question as been said, WoC..

WoC needs to be hit with a nerf bat, especially to the foot marauders (4 pts, seriously???) that can have Great Weapons for ..

I forgot about that. Hah common goblins, (ironically rare on the tabletop), cost 4 points if you give them a shield and spear. I mean that's just hilarious.

Although I imagine the other upgrades are more expensive for the marauders.

Actually brets are another good one, I recently faced a bret army at my local club and the entire game boiled down to me trying to grind away his last KOTR unit with all my remaining ogres piling in....unfortunately he held out.

Corvus Corone
08-03-2012, 13:57
With muliple invocations and casters, you can raise 30+ models in a turn without too much hassle. A caster in range of three zombie units getting the spell off will raise 6D6+3xCasterLvl per casting, which is pretty decent. Of course, that's optimal, but with a most casts you will usually be hitting at least two units. Other units will raise fewer models, sure, but those models will be better than zombies, and more resilient.

I'd say VCs.

T10
08-03-2012, 14:40
Lizards with a Life Slann by far. The can regrow, are overall pretty tough, can get tougher with spells and get regen. This is army can take sooo much abuse.
PS just won a GT with a life slann lizard list because no one could kill my units.

Agreed: Lizardmen not only have high toughness/high armour save infantry but they have access to magic that can keep them alive even longer.

-T10

Djekar
09-03-2012, 09:49
I think the reason that WoC wins out over Lizards is that the Warriors of Chaos troops have the statline to shrug off (for the most part) many of the save or die spells getting thrown around, while the Lizards have that poor, poor initiative... genetically altered super-soldiers my butt.

Morkash
09-03-2012, 10:28
With muliple invocations and casters, you can raise 30+ models in a turn without too much hassle. A caster in range of three zombie units getting the spell off will raise 6D6+3xCasterLvl per casting, which is pretty decent. Of course, that's optimal, but with a most casts you will usually be hitting at least two units. Other units will raise fewer models, sure, but those models will be better than zombies, and more resilient.

I'd say VCs.

The raising is a fair point for sure, but on the other hand these models also tend to die horribly fast as well. I faced them a few days ago and he rose massive amounts of models (3000 points per side, 2 Necros + Lord + a Vampire), but they just die so easily. 6 Maneaters charged around 50 Zombies, and even with Nehek(s) in his turn the Maneaters just killed to many. That said, Maneaters with Poison and Add. HW may be one the best units in the game to smash Zombies, but there are other units achieving similar damage as well. The 6 Maneaters killed almost 20 Zombies on the charge, the same amount crumbled, and after the next turn the unit (+ Wraith) crumbled away.

But true, I did not manage to finish the army off on my own. The generals' death (both Necros) took care of that. Nevertheless it's mind blowing how much you can summon with the new book. We agreed that he should use dice to indicate how many bonus models he had, because it were so many!

DeathlessDraich
09-03-2012, 15:35
I am tempted to answer this because coincidentally I have worked it out but ... not now sorry, I don't want to give too much away. Answers so far provided are only partially correct, I'm afraid.
:)
In 2 months time or thereabouts, shortly after the new Empire release and as soon as I've made all the necessary Empire updates, my Tactica will be ready and contain answers to questions like this.

It will be an ebook and has a price - very cheap! More info in the Rumours forum next month.
:)