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Sareld
26-04-2006, 14:46
Apart from a so far unconfirmed rumor I heard waaay back on another forum anout the guardians gettion the choice between shuriken catapults and lasblasters, I havent heard a thing about the how the guardians will be updated in the 4th edition.

To be honest, I think that the guardians are THE biggest problem with the 3rd edition codex, as they are both horribly unfluffy and next to worthless gamewise.. Wether or not I will start an eldar army when the next codex comes out, or sell the models I already have on eBay all comes down to what GW does to the guardians, yet all they leak out is some more or less confirmed rumors about units I have never considered to use in the first place. Annoying.

Is this a case of GW saving the biggest news for last? Or an indicator that guardians will remain largely unchanged? If so, I really hope that GW gives us the option to avoid guardians completely (perhaps by giving us aspect vehicle crew?), or my money stays in my pocket..

IIRC, Gavin Thorpe himself once said that basic infantry are supposed to offer some of the best point/value ratios in the codex, and yet one of the most important parts of making an eldar armylist today is to avoid any of the horrible vanilla troop choices..

Thing in the Shadows
26-04-2006, 14:56
Worthless... riiight.

No, it is very unlikely that guardians will take the backwards step to using laser weaponry again. It was phased out in the latest version and I don't see it coming back in.

If you really have that big a problem with guardians pick up Codex Craftworld Eldar and play Biel Tan. Guardians ARE the army of the Eldar, aspect warriors are supposed to be rarer than hen's teeth and exarch's doubly so. If any significant changes come out of a new codex expect more restrictions on aspects not less in order to better represent the background. Alternatively play Ulthwe with the restrictions that that army imposes and get your guardians at BS4 like I do. Much snackier.

Thought for the day: If you bemoan the basic troop type of your army, you collect the wrong army. Go find one that has troop choices that you actually respect.

Spell_of_Destruction
26-04-2006, 15:07
Guardians do need some work.

In 3rd ed they were great screening troops (I used to love hiding my army behind a concealed and fortuned guardian horde :evilgrin: ) but this has been completely ruled out in 4th ed.

Initial rumours (for what they are worth) indicate that Guardians will NOT be getting better shuriken catapults. If this is true then I struggle to see what is going to be done to make tem more effective.

They should be able to take special weapons for starters. I would simply get rid of the needless defender/storm distinction.

Sareld
26-04-2006, 15:07
hmm..

I swiched to DE after giving up on CWE, and I am faliliar with the codex: craftworlds. However, even by using the craftworld codex you can hardly avoid guardians completely, as they crew every single vehicle.

But lets not turn this thread into a tactica discussion about guardians, or a thread about how I should not play CWE. If there are rumors on the guardians out there, I really want to hear them.

Wraithbored
26-04-2006, 15:10
Worthless... riiight.

No, it is very unlikely that guardians will take the backwards step to using laser weaponry again. It was phased out in the latest version and I don't see it coming back in.

If you really have that big a problem with guardians pick up Codex Craftworld Eldar and play Biel Tan. Guardians ARE the army of the Eldar, aspect warriors are supposed to be rarer than hen's teeth and exarch's doubly so. If any significant changes come out of a new codex expect more restrictions on aspects not less in order to better represent the background. Alternatively play Ulthwe with the restrictions that that army imposes and get your guardians at BS4 like I do. Much snackier.

Thought for the day: If you bemoan the basic troop type of your army, you collect the wrong army. Go find one that has troop choices that you actually respect.
I couldn't disagree more, the Eldar army is based primarily on Aspects, they ARE rare! But Eldar RARELy go into battle and never in large battles and prolonged wars. They attack eaxactly where and when is needed as was predicted by the Farseers. The Guardians are civilian leevy only mobilised when the **** really hits the fan, or when the craftworld itself is in peril.

I don't think Guardians will get modified much. What I'd hope is a limit in number so no more 20 guardian mobs. I mean if you're a dieing race why are you sending waves of your people to death?:wtf:

Also any talk of what HAS been rumoured about them is prematured, let's just wait for rumours to spring up by themselves, I doubt any true Wrhammer fan like us would withold info.Unless if he was ordered so by GW in which case it's understandable.

Spell_of_Destruction
26-04-2006, 15:12
I mean if you're a dieing race why are you sending waves of your people to death?:wtf:

With short ranged carbines. :wtf:

Wraithbored
26-04-2006, 15:14
With short ranged carbines. :wtf:
And let's not forget piddly armour.

Gupp
26-04-2006, 15:35
I'd like to see eldar get a reroll on their fleet of foot rolls...I'm not saying its happening, but I've always thought it odd that the ELDAR, masters of speed and acrobatics and whatever, could trip over a branch 1/6th of the time.

Some guy (UK)
26-04-2006, 16:23
Erm I thought the rumour section wasn't for asking questions, it's in the F.A.Q.

Later, Some Guy

TWB
26-04-2006, 16:43
Well said Some guy (UK), I'll move this thread to 40K general as it's turned into a discussion about Guardians.

The WarSeer Inquisition

athamas
26-04-2006, 16:46
Not sure if this should be in general...


i think most craftworlds would send a aspect based forced to any engaugemenet, with gardians making up the support weapons. but we will see what happens, IIRC dire avengers are getting 18" S'Catapults which will makethem ery good!

Spell_of_Destruction
26-04-2006, 18:34
IIRC dire avengers are getting 18" S'Catapults which will makethem ery good!

IF this is true (and it is a big if as it is merely a rumour at present) why are only Dire Avengers getting the 18" range?

The Shuriken Catapult's fall from grace would then be complete.

2nd ed: The best basic weapon in the game. :D
3rd ed: A short range but comparatively high rate of fire assault weapon. :)
4th ed: A crappy version of the bolt gun. :(

ionfish
26-04-2006, 21:14
18" Assault 2 is nothing to sneeze at.

Spell_of_Destruction
26-04-2006, 22:12
18" Assault 2 is nothing to sneeze at.

I agree but initial rumours (which could be worth sweet FA) suggest that only Dire Avenger's catapults shall receive the range boost.

If Guardian's catapults got 18" too I think that would do the business.

EDIT: I should probably say that there is not much point in getting into yet another debate about the merits of 18" range on shuriken catapults. A lot of energy has already been wasted in this subject and it should probably be put to rest until we start hearing some more solid rumours concerning the codex.

Inquisitor Konig
26-04-2006, 22:20
The catapult is not an assault weapon per say, but rather a last ditch attempt to stop the assault when the enemy closes in. Personally I don’t think 18” assault 2 is the answer for guardians (dire avengers are a different story). Rather, I think an extra shot or an increased strength would do the job. We all know what happens when the guardians fail to kill the enemy at 12” range the fallowing turn…

Melchiah
26-04-2006, 22:34
I know this is off topic but the reason i stopped playing ECW was: 1. the pyshic seletic compared to that of the SM and nids (yes i know ECW had the best users but i felt the powers werent as strongh) 2. Too many aspects compared to gaurdians ( still cant figure out how to use Shining spears) 3. anything you can do with gaurdians you cna do with dire averangers and then some.
I know some of you may disagree with me but still gaurdians do seam to lack compared to everything else

Spell_of_Destruction
26-04-2006, 22:37
The catapult is not an assault weapon per say, but rather a last ditch attempt to stop the assault when the enemy closes in. Personally I don’t think 18” assault 2 is the answer for guardians (dire avengers are a different story). Rather, I think an extra shot or an increased strength would do the job. We all know what happens when the guardians fail to kill the enemy at 12” range the fallowing turn…

I should know better tan to get into this discussion again, but...

So what are you suggesting? Two different catapults, one for Avengers and one for Guardians? It's novel but I can't see it.

Guardians generally are not going to kill an entire squad with a round of shooting (well, nothing with a decent armour save anyway) regardless so at least the 18" range allows them to stay out of assault range of foot sloggers.

Oh and by assault weapon I meant that it is classified as an assault weapon, like a melta gun.

Orbital
27-04-2006, 01:41
Sareld, I disagree with you on almost every point, and I'm going to write a long reply to explain why that is. I will, however, try very hard to edit it down so I'm not just yammering and will do my level best to try to keep the signal:noise ratio good.


Apart from a so far unconfirmed rumor I heard waaay back on another forum anout the guardians gettion the choice between shuriken catapults and lasblasters.

Lasblasters aren't gonna happen.


[Guardians...] are both horribly unfluffy and next to worthless gamewise.

I'm not saying Guardians are perfect. Let's just make that clear from the outset. I will say, however, that I think people have unrealistic expectations of an 8 point model.

As for being worthless game-wise, that can't possibly be true when people complain not only about how unbeatable min-maxed Guardian squads with platforms are... but about Guardian hordes as well. I've seen it right here on Warseer; people complain as much about how Guardians can be made too powerful as much as they complain about them not being powerful enough. If Guardians were worthless, game-wise, no-one would go for Ulthwe or Ulthwe Strike Force; the two most Guardian-intensive Craftworlds in the game. We know that Ulthwe, at least, is one of the most popular (in fact, I often hear it's *the* most popular, but I don't know if that's true).

Fluff-wise? Guardians make a huge amount of sense. I wrote something about it here (http://eldarcraftworld.blogspot.com/2005/12/guardians.html). In case you don't feel like clicking that, I'll summarize very quickly: There's this strange idea that the Eldar are an Elite-only army. Why would a dying race be killing its civilians? Because the civilians are all they have left. That's what militias are all about; not enough elite fighters, so the common people make up the rank and file. And those common people die.

I seriously think that people have a lot of pipe dreams about what Guardians are supposed to do and be. They're not perfect, but they still do wonders on the table if you rely on tactics instead of stat lines.


Whether or not I will start an eldar army when the next codex comes out, or sell the models I already have on eBay all comes down to what GW does to the guardians, yet all they leak out is some more or less confirmed rumors about units I have never considered to use in the first place. Is this a case of GW saving the biggest news for last?

This is something else that drives me nuts.

Games Workshop does not leak stuff on a schedule. It's not like a waiter bringing you several courses of a meal over an evening, and you wondering whether the dessert is late or not. "Leak" means something escapes where it shouldn't. If it's supposed to be leaking, that's called a "release" or an "announcement". Games Workshop is saving something for last... it's called "The New Eldar Codex".

I would also like to let you know that rumors are just that; they're not promises or official announcements. Everything you have heard to date might be wrong. Also, there might be much more to hear that you haven't yet.

Guardians do need some tweaking, if only to make them a bit more interesting. That having been said, I keep hearing people asking for Guardians to have better armor saves, better guns, better WS/BS... and sometimes I wonder if people who want all that shouldn't just be playing Marines.


Initial rumours (for what they are worth) indicate that Guardians will NOT be getting better shuriken catapults. If this is true then I struggle to see what is going to be done to make them more effective.

One thing which has come up a lot is the possibility of Warlocks added to the Guardian squad having psychic powers that define and shape the unit. Just as Conceal, Enhance and Embolden now make the squad into something it wouldn't be otherwise, more powers could be added to do things like increase range, increase speed or other interesting variables. It would allow Guardians to stay humble and keep their cost down while, at the same time, people who want to power their Guardians up for certain tasks could be able to do so via Warlock powers.


But lets not turn this thread into a tactica discussion about guardians, or a thread about how I should not play CWE. If there are rumors on the guardians out there, I really want to hear them.

If you read the rumor threads, you'll find all the Guardian rumors there are. Remember, however, that rumors aren't the same as confirmation... so even if you read something juicy, don't bet the farm.


I couldn't disagree more, the Eldar army is based primarily on Aspects, they ARE rare!

Where do we get this idea? I've never seen that in the fluff or rules. Biel Tan, sure... but that's a variant, not a core army.

Anyhow, Sareld... you don't like the Seer Council, you don't like Farseers and you don't like Guardians. My suggestion is hang tight until the new codex, buy an Autarch, and play Biel Tan.

Wraithbored
27-04-2006, 01:52
Where do we get this idea? I've never seen that in the fluff or rules. Biel Tan, sure... but that's a variant, not a core army.
True Biel tan IS a variant. And Eldar are a rare sight in the 40k universe from a fluff perpective.

And by a common Eldar being rare the aspect will be even rarer and an Exarch doubly so. But what I was refering to is that the Eldar are all about specialisation and aspects represent that.

And that is why my oppinion about Aspects being the main driving force in the Eldar military comes from. Hope I cleared that up at least a bit.

AgentZero
27-04-2006, 07:27
Apart from a so far unconfirmed rumor I heard waaay back on another forum anout the guardians gettion the choice between shuriken catapults and lasblasters, I havent heard a thing about the how the guardians will be updated in the 4th edition. ..

I still have a ton of those lasblaster Guardians.Metal and plastic.
I might have more then 40 of them critters. I remember being mad when the "new" Guardians came out because I had so many of the laser gunned ones.
I don't think they're coming back though, it wouldn't make sense.
Eldar have their shuriken weapons,lasers aren't needed.

Guardians will get tweaked, not overhauled.
They're not going to be the MEQs all the unfluffy unenlightened people want.

ReDavide
27-04-2006, 08:24
Reliable people seem to be saying that Dire Avengers will be the new staple Troop choice. To my mind that suggests that guardians will be relegated to small heavy weapon squads (which just require a fix to the weapons, not to the guardians), or small falcon-transported objective-grabbers (at which they're fine as-is).

Orbital
27-04-2006, 08:26
Reliable people seem to be saying that Dire Avengers will be the new staple Troop choice.

Where do they say that?

ReDavide
27-04-2006, 08:35
Here :)

http://www.warseer.net/forums/showpost.php?p=610106&postcount=89

Orbital
27-04-2006, 08:41
Maybe you're not looking at the same quote I am. In the link you gave me, Brimstone is saying "I think people will be buying lots of Dire Avengers. Both their rules and models will make them pretty attractive." You're saying that they're now going to be the staple troop choice. You're making a rather broad assumption given that we don't know what changes are going to be made to Guardians and Rangers yet. We don't even know if Dire Avengers will remain a troop choice or will be moved to the Elite slot. Writing off Guardians is a mistake until you actually know there's a reason to write them off.

You gotta read what he's saying, not what you'd like him to be saying.

Brimstone
27-04-2006, 08:44
Reliable people seem to be saying that Dire Avengers will be the new staple Troop choice.

I haven't said that.

Orbital
27-04-2006, 10:14
You know what I'd like to see?
- Guardians reduced to 7 points from 8.
- Warlocks with a much greater range of awesome powers by which to tool up a Guardian squad to be a) better shooters, b) faster, c) able to do "magic" things (like redeploy after the deployment phase is over, a la Eldrad Ulthran), d) greater shooting range, e) other cool things.
- Lots more gubbinz to make the Guardians look individual
- The perennial Guardian "asscrack" fixed.

Things I don't want to see:
- Shuriken Catapults become rapid-fire
- Increased BS, WS or armor save (yeah, that's right... I said it)
- Any weapon that starts with the prefix "las"
- Power fists, weapons, gloves, rubber chickens or anything else

That's just me. I've got my fingers crossed hoping that Guardians will be cheap, simple, and can be tricked out with Warlock powers.

(p.s. This is just my angle on things. No "official" word intended.)

Wraithbored
27-04-2006, 10:44
You know what I'd like to see?
- Guardians reduced to 7 points from 8.
- Warlocks with a much greater range of awesome powers by which to tool up a Guardian squad to be a) better shooters, b) faster, c) able to do "magic" things (like redeploy after the deployment phase is over, a la Eldrad Ulthran), d) greater shooting range, e) other cool things.
- Lots more gubbinz to make the Guardians look individual
- The perennial Guardian "asscrack" fixed.

Things I don't want to see:
- Shuriken Catapults become rapid-fire
- Increased BS, WS or armor save (yeah, that's right... I said it)
- Any weapon that starts with the prefix "las"
- Power fists, weapons, gloves, rubber chickens or anything else

That's just me. I've got my fingers crossed hoping that Guardians will be cheap, simple, and can be tricked out with Warlock powers.

(p.s. This is just my angle on things. No "official" word intended.)
I tottaly agree with you orbital! But what I'd also like to see is a max unit cap of 10 guardians(unwiligness of the eldar to send in civilians to die, the fear of death and all that fluff).

Orbital
27-04-2006, 10:49
I tottaly agree with you orbital! But what I'd also like to see is a max unit cap of 10 guardians(unwiligness of the eldar to send in civilians to die, the fear of death and all that fluff).

I totally, absolutely don't agree with that (though I mean no disrespect or offense).

First of all, I could just take two squads of ten (and an anti-grav support platform in each to boot).

Secondly, I hear complaining about Guardians in hordes, but I hear more complaining about Guardians being min/maxed. I really can't see the big deal about either from a rules perspective, but I'd be more afraid of 4 squads of 5 Guardians with Starcannons than I would be of one big squad of 20.

As far as fluff goes, I wrote something up (if you're interested). Check it out here (http://eldarcraftworld.blogspot.com/2005/12/guardians.html). I realize I keep posting this same thing, but I figure it's better than copy-pasting it to every thread. The summary (if you don't want to click) is that a militia is called in to fight because they have no-one else to do battle with. It's not as if sending in fewer Guardians means that soldiers to make up the difference will magically appear out of thin air.

Know what I mean?

Wraithbored
27-04-2006, 10:58
I totally, absolutely don't agree with that (though I mean no disrespect or offense).

First of all, I could just take two squads of ten (and an anti-grav support platform in each to boot).

Secondly, I hear complaining about Guardians in hordes, but I hear more complaining about Guardians being min/maxed. I really can't see the big deal about either from a rules perspective, but I'd be more afraid of 4 squads of 5 Guardians with Starcannons than I would be of one big squad of 20.

As far as fluff goes, I wrote something up (if you're interested). Check it out here (http://eldarcraftworld.blogspot.com/2005/12/guardians.html). I realize I keep posting this same thing, but I figure it's better than copy-pasting it to every thread. The summary (if you don't want to click) is that a militia is called in to fight because they have no-one else to do battle with. It's not as if sending in fewer Guardians means that soldiers to make up the difference will magically appear out of thin air.

Know what I mean?No offense taken this is a debate after all not name calling. And I understand what you mean about min/maxed squads. But what I mean is Eldar fight only when and where they can turn the tide of battle with a surgical strike(one that won't cost many lives or resources) and will therefore be able to allot the required aspects(My biel-tan organised head is speaking here).

BloodiedSword
27-04-2006, 11:28
There seem to be two ways of making Guardians more like what they should be like from the fluff.

First, give them better gear and armour and up their points cost. I am vehemently against this, simply because they are (as has been said) just a standing civilian force who fight because they have no choice. The Eldar would still save their best stuff for the professional soldiers, and if it's a case of "everyone is responsible for their own wargear" then you can't expect civilians to keep ultra high tech gear at home.. super high tech is as good as it gets for them I'm afraid :p

Secondly, put some kind of cap on the number of Guardians fielded. Either by limiting the squad size, or number of squads that can be taken. I think the second way could work.

Thirdly, have some kind of penalty for taking Guardian casualties. Whether this something like the Necron's Phase Out, except only applying to Guardians (i.e., when 75% of the Guardians in an army are killed, the remaining Guardians only decide they can't afford any more civvy casualties and leg it), or a direct penalty such as not being able to achieve Major victory if half the Guardians die, only being able to draw at best if all the Guardians die, etc.

EDIT: Problem with the last is that, although fluffly, it might prevent people from taking Guardians at all..

Orbital
27-04-2006, 11:39
...put some kind of cap on the number of Guardians fielded. Either by limiting the squad size, or number of squads that can be taken.

To do this would be to hand out an engraved invitation for people to field more min-maxed Guardian forces. I, for one, don't feel like going up against the six squads of 5 Guardians with Starcannons that are all the rage now... and if we start sending the message that smaller Guardian units are better then that's what we'll end up with.

I also believe that creating large Guardian squads is one of the few ways to combat their short range, low toughness and crappy armor save. I mean, come on. Give these guys a chance to survive at least.

I also think it's important to remember that the reason that Guardians get fielded at all is because a battle comes, X number of soldiers are needed, and there aren't X hardened vets... so a militia is called upon to make up the difference. Sometimes X is going to be a big number... and a lot of Guardians will be necessary. Keeping the squads smaller suggests that there are so many veteran warriors that heavy militia involvement isn't needed when, in fact, a lot of militia activity is the very hallmark of a dwindling population at war. Let me repeat that: A lot of militia activity is the very hallmark of a dwindling population at war. That's why the more the Eldar race shrinks, the more Guardians make sense.


Thirdly, have some kind of penalty for taking Guardian casualties.

There's an existing rule in Ulthwe Strike Force called "Tactical Withdrawl", where Guardians who fail morale checks cannot regroup ever, even if they're above half. They just start fleeing for the nearest exit and they keep fleeing until they leave the table (and the opponent gets half victory points for that). If all Guardians worked this way, I think it would be an excellent balance gameplay-wise as well as a fluffy solution to boot.

Ironhand
27-04-2006, 12:41
I pretty much agree with Orbital. However, I would not be surprised to see the Guardian squad minimum raised to 10.

I like the idea of "Tactical Withdrawal" apply to all Guardians as well.

Hlokk
27-04-2006, 12:50
What if you just gave them 4+ armour?

it increases survivability, makes sence for the most ancient race in the galaxy (bar necrons) to have armour that might stand up to a bolt round, and it might stop people complaining.

boogle
27-04-2006, 13:05
Orbital, you said you don't want to see any Eldar weapons with the prefix 'Las', does that mean you want the Swooping Hawks weapon changed?

Orbital
27-04-2006, 13:27
What if you just gave them 4+ armour?

it increases survivability, makes sence for the most ancient race in the galaxy (bar necrons) to have armour that might stand up to a bolt round, and it might stop people complaining.

Here's the thing. If you increase a Guardian's armor save to 4+, then you have to increase his points cost as well. Nothing has a 4+ armor save for less than 10 points, so you make them 10 points. Then, Eldar players start complaining because Tau Fire Warriors are the same cost, but they have better weapons. So then you give Guardians longer-range weapons, say 24". Well, most people would argue that assault 2, s4, 24" range weapons are too strong, so you'd boost their points again again to, say, 11. Well, Sisters of Battle are 11 points and they have a 3+ save, so you have to give Guardians the 3+ save at that point...

Anyhow, the equation gets ridiculous if you continue to follow that angle. Eventually you have to say what they have is good enough in the context of their squad and their army and leave it at that.


Orbital, you said you don't want to see any Eldar weapons with the prefix 'Las', does that mean you want the Swooping Hawks weapon changed?

Yes.

Sareld
27-04-2006, 15:24
Woah... things do move fast around here! There is so many things I want to respond to, but I´ll have to limit myself so that my post wont become TLDR.



I also think it's important to remember that the reason that Guardians get fielded at all is because a battle comes, X number of soldiers are needed, and there aren't X hardened vets... so a militia is called upon to make up the difference. Sometimes X is going to be a big number... and a lot of Guardians will be necessary. Keeping the squads smaller suggests that there are so many veteran warriors that heavy militia involvement isn't needed when, in fact, a lot of militia activity is the very hallmark of a dwindling population at war. Let me repeat that: A lot of militia activity is the very hallmark of a dwindling population at war. That's why the more the Eldar race shrinks, the more Guardians make sense.


Im not saying that I dont want to use guardians at all, only that I wont be using them at all if they are not made better. The eldar are one of the most long lived races in the universe, they have the ability to look forward in time, and yet their basic soldiers always show up for bettle totally unprepared? Seems like the eldar are either dumb, or that they have a deathwish. I know that the number of soldiers needed to perform a task is sometimes the number of avaliable aspect warriors + X, where X is the number of guardians that would have to be drafted, but so does the eldar, and thats why I think that some kind of "black" guardians should be avaliable to all eldar armies, though Ultwhé should have access to more of them than anyone else.



As for being worthless game-wise, that can't possibly be true when people complain not only about how unbeatable min-maxed Guardian squads with platforms are... but about Guardian hordes as well. I've seen it right here on Warseer; people complain as much about how Guardians can be made too powerful as much as they complain about them not being powerful enough. If Guardians were worthless, game-wise, no-one would go for Ulthwe or Ulthwe Strike Force; the two most Guardian-intensive Craftworlds in the game. We know that Ulthwe, at least, is one of the most popular (in fact, I often hear it's *the* most popular, but I don't know if that's true).


First, I dont think of min-maxed guardian squads as anywhere near unbeatable. I play against Ultwhé on a regular basis, and and I have yet to loose a squad to my opponents guardians. In fact, I cant think of any other basic shooty infantry that cant outperform guardians in equal points.. I know that my warriors eat them for breakfast, and I have seen marines, fire warriors, guardsmen, termagaunts(!) and shootaboyz do the same.

However, I actually like black guardians.. especially storm guardians. Black defender guardians still trot around with that horrible shuriken catapult, but if that got fixed I would love them just as well. Personally, I think that people like Ultwhé mainly because their improved guardians is actually worth their eight points.



You know what I'd like to see?
- Guardians reduced to 7 points from 8.
- Warlocks with a much greater range of awesome powers by which to tool up a Guardian squad to be a) better shooters, b) faster, c) able to do "magic" things (like redeploy after the deployment phase is over, a la Eldrad Ulthran), d) greater shooting range, e) other cool things.
- Lots more gubbinz to make the Guardians look individual
- The perennial Guardian "asscrack" fixed.


Please dont take it the wrong way, but I disagree quite a bit with most of what you are saying there. Lowering the point cost of the guardians would make people use them even more like suicide troops, which they shouldnt be at all. If anything, I think that guardians should be given more abilities and raised a point, though I wouldnt like them to become mini-marines. I also dislike the idea of letting the warlock powers work like vet skills, that would feel awfully computer gameish to me. And on the butcrack and gubbinz issue, well, who can disagree with you there? I would like the following to be done to the guardians:

- "Black" guardians avaliable to all craftworlds, but Ultwhe needs to have access to more than everyone else.

- The shuriken catapult needs to be made diffrent from the bolter.. I dont like the way the catapult is overshadowed by the marine weapon now. Im thinking along the lines of:

Range 12", S3, Ap4 or 5*, Assault 3.

* I havent done the math.. Ap4 may be overpowering.

- The defender guardians need access to the same special weapons as the stormies.

- The USF "tactical withdrawl" special rule needs to count for all guardians

- More powers for the warlock, although I wouldnt like "computer game powers".

- The guardians need to be able to fleet while having a platform. Perhaps even be able to fire it while fleeting, but it would require some playtesting to determine wheter or not that is fair.

That would make the guardians as powerful as they should be, and make them more interesting to use. The current guardians are as boring to use as guardsmen with bolter carbines would be.. not very satisfying.



Things I don't want to see:
- Shuriken Catapults become rapid-fire
- Increased BS, WS or armor save (yeah, that's right... I said it)
- Any weapon that starts with the prefix "las"
- Power fists, weapons, gloves, rubber chickens or anything else


With the exeption of the WS/BS part and the rubber chickens, I totally agree. Guardians are light infantry, and they need to remain with a 5+ save.

And on the "las" prefix thing, i also agree. I want all the imperial weapons out of the eldar armoury, and that includes lasweapons. I would also love to see a haywire missile instead of the imperial krak missile, but I can already hear the cries about cheese from here..

Another thing that annoys me about guardians is, that you cant buy a vehicle without guardian crew. Crewing tanks is possibly one of the most important roles on the battlefield, and the eldar leaves it to their hairdressers, bakers and pizza delivery boys...? If there is one job on the battlefield that cries out for an aspect, or at least someone who knows what he is doing, it is exactly that of a tank crew.. Sometimes it is really no wonder to me why the race is dying out.

Adept
27-04-2006, 15:54
Here's the thing. If you increase a Guardian's armor save to 4+, then you have to increase his points cost as well. Nothing has a 4+ armor save for less than 10 points, so you make them 10 points. Then, Eldar players start complaining because Tau Fire Warriors are the same cost, but they have better weapons. So then you give Guardians longer-range weapons, say 24". Well, most people would argue that assault 2, s4, 24" range weapons are too strong, so you'd boost their points again again to, say, 11. Well, Sisters of Battle are 11 points and they have a 3+ save, so you have to give Guardians the 3+ save at that point...

Anyhow, the equation gets ridiculous if you continue to follow that angle. Eventually you have to say what they have is good enough in the context of their squad and their army and leave it at that.

I disagree entirely.

That would be akin to saying that it is imposible to create a new unit, or ever modify an existing one. Which simply isn't true. Giving Guardians a 4+ save and 16" range Assault 2 weapons seems like a good idea to me. Playtesting would reveal the best points cost for them, but I imagine it would be around 12 points, give or take.

Guardians shouldn't be IG equivalent meat-shields. They should be relatively tough, hard to catch, and lethal in their own right in moderate numbers. A weapon with a range greater than 12" (heaven forbid!) would create en interesting dynamic, allowing the Eldar to fire at a unit without ending their turn within assault range of their enemies.

BloodiedSword
27-04-2006, 16:20
Is the 16" range a typo? I can't think of any weapon apart from template weapons, whose range is not a multiple of 6".. I really doubt GW would make an exception for Guardians.

I think giving them the potential to increase their range is a good thing, though I'd prefer to see something like 18" Rapid Fire - enough to defend with but very dangerous to attack with unsupported.

The problem with giving them a 4+ save and a souped up weapon is that you risk sidelining Dire Avengers - units fulfil a similar role to platform-less Guardians, but are the professional soldiers. How do you then represent the difference between the two without either overpricing or misrepresenting the DA?

IMO the Guardians shouldn't be in the thick of it - manning and protecting a support platform what I see most of them doing.

Guardian Storm squads always struck me as a bit of a silly idea.

Adept
27-04-2006, 16:43
Is the 16" range a typo? I can't think of any weapon apart from template weapons, whose range is not a multiple of 6".. I really doubt GW would make an exception for Guardians.

Yeah, but theres no good reason for the rule of six. 18" assault weapons are too much. 12" not enough. Why not use that happy 6" gap between?


The problem with giving them a 4+ save and a souped up weapon is that you risk sidelining Dire Avengers. How do you then represent the difference between the two without either overpricing or misrepresenting the DA?

Better stats for Dire Avengers. Increased BS and LD, would be my vote.


IMO the Guardians shouldn't be in the thick of it - manning and protecting a support platform what I see most of them doing.

Certainly, but I wouldn't want to see Guardians placed on a similar level to Guardsmen, where (barring heavy or special weapons) their only strength is weight of numbers. Eldar, as a rule, should be tricksy. A 4+ save stops them dieing like flies to bolters. A weapon that fires at full effectiveness without having to end your turn in assault range encourages players to move their models about dynamically, engaging in mobile firefights.

ViewFinder
27-04-2006, 17:53
Yeah, but theres no good reason for the rule of six. 18" assault weapons are too much. 12" not enough. Why not use that happy 6" gap between?



Better stats for Dire Avengers. Increased BS and LD, would be my vote.

range of 16" sound good. it`s odd but still sounds good.

And we end having BS5 and Ld10 Avengers?:wtf: Hey! we have new marines!(no, not like this...)


I`d say we`ll keep guardians same as they are now, but mix up Stormies and defenders. It works or it doesn`t work. Thats how GW goes.

Storm Hunters
27-04-2006, 18:37
I think yes to assult weppons deffinatly (flaimer and Fussion gun) and yes to 5+. Assult weapons would allow further developments of tacktics for them other than support weappons. If GW want to make them support troops then they i think they wouldbe best represented by having the option for two YES TWO support weapons, but have a maximum of two units or somthing to stop abbuse and stay fluffy.
If GW want to make them in to short rainge gun fighters (they have assult weapons for a reason) then they should have slightly longer rainge weapons (16" would be a start)(actuly im likeing the 16", as it would mix up many others peoples tactics with the unfermilier number) and acssess to assult weapons to deal with other threats.
However after reading Orbitals post i can also see the logic of the warlock upgrader, however this could lead to combinations becomeing ubictuioius, and does not stop min/maxing. IT would also be hard to ballence having fixed costs for powers, as they can affect squads of 20 or 5, one of which will give vastly better value for money.


so even though i do not have a distinct image for gaudians, i think these idears shuld sute the direction they are taken in. I do think they need to be given a direction though.

Storm Hunters.

Farseer Il`uvatar
27-04-2006, 19:53
Another thing that annoys me about guardians is, that you cant buy a vehicle without guardian crew. Crewing tanks is possibly one of the most important roles on the battlefield, and the eldar leaves it to their hairdressers, bakers and pizza delivery boys...? If there is one job on the battlefield that cries out for an aspect, or at least someone who knows what he is doing, it is exactly that of a tank crew.. Sometimes it is really no wonder to me why the race is dying out.


YES!!! Why the heck are falcons, Vypers, and esp. Fire Prisms manned by untrained lackwits! I think we can all agree that vehicles are probably the best thing going for the eldar; why can't the farseers see that and have trained crew? This is not just a fluff issue either, it is a game balance issue. Eldar are meant to be fast, surgical strike fighters, thus requiring vehicles. The epitomy of this is the Vyper. Lets compare the vyper to the landspeeder tornado. Both are fast skimmers with a total armour of 30. Good. The vyper has, say, a starcannon and a shuriken cannon, compared the the LS with an assault cannon and a heavy bolter. The Vyper costs 85 pts, the LS 80. So those 5 points get you a minus one to BS, one less shot and open-toppedness. Wow, what a bargain! This is simplified, certainly, but in the end, I'd rather have a LS on the table than a vyper!

Orbital
27-04-2006, 20:57
Sorry for the long post, everyone.


Im not saying that I dont want to use guardians at all, only that I wont be using them at all if they are not made better.

That's fair.


The eldar are one of the most long lived races in the universe, they have the ability to look forward in time, and yet their basic soldiers always show up for bettle totally unprepared?

You say "unprepared", but that's sort of a vague qualifier... and I don't understand what it's supposed to mean in fluff or rules.

Look at it like this: The notion that Eldar do surgical strikes is very true but, in the 40k universe, no-one gets to control where and when they get attacked... so they have to do the best they can with what they've got. Sometimes that means fielding a militia who, honestly, aren't as good as a standing army.

It reminds me very much of Helm's Deep from Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. You had Aragorn, you had Eomer, you had King Theoden and a bunch of elves. By and large, however, you saw tons of flunkies picking up pots and pans and pretending to be soldiers because that's what they needed. They simply didn't have all the men they wanted or needed to fill their ranks with real warriors. Luckily for the Eldar, the Guardians are just slightly better than the average one-eyed geezer who shoots arrows when he's not supposed to. :)


I think that some kind of "black" guardians should be avaliable to all eldar armies, though Ultwhé should have access to more of them than anyone else.

I don't personally agree with this, as Black Guardians are a standing army based on fluff that only pertains to Ulthwé. If everyone has Black Guardians then it changes the fluff of every other Craftworld. It changes the balance of the rules as well; Ulthwé have Black Guardians to make up for the paucity of Aspect Warriors. Why, then, would Biel Tan have them?


First, I dont think of min-maxed guardian squads as anywhere near unbeatable.

Neither do I, but for a lot of people it's one of their chief complaints. If I see someone field six minimum troop choices with Starcannons then, yeah, I do sort of think maybe that's an abuse, but I know the min/maxed thing typically makes people scream blue murder.


Please dont take it the wrong way, but I disagree quite a bit with most of what you are saying there. Lowering the point cost of the guardians would make people use them even more like suicide troops, which they shouldnt be at all.

With Tactical Withdrawl they wouldn't be.


I also dislike the idea of letting the warlock powers work like vet skills, that would feel awfully computer gameish to me.

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. Again with the vague qualifiers.


Range 12", S3, Ap4 or 5*, Assault 3.

I actually love this idea. I'd prefer S4 (to make up for the Range and crap AP), but I actually think this works both with rules and fluff. Well done there.


- The defender guardians need access to the same special weapons as the stormies.

I actually like that idea as well. I do love Storm Guardians, but it seems odd to equip them with the special shooting weapons, no?


Another thing that annoys me about guardians is, that you cant buy a vehicle without guardian crew. Crewing tanks is possibly one of the most important roles on the battlefield, and the eldar leaves it to their hairdressers, bakers and pizza delivery boys...?

See, this is where I see people losing a grip on what a militia is. Do you think they do eenie-meenie-miney-moe to pick who runs the Grav Platforms? :) See, when you use a militia it means you'd love to have someone else if you could, but you can't, so you make the best of what you have. Everyone *wants* an Aspect dedicated just to hitting the "fire" button on the heavy weapon, but that's not an option. You make do with what you've got. That's how a dying race has to get through the year 40,000.


That would be akin to saying that it is imposible to create a new unit, or ever modify an existing one. Which simply isn't true.

Actually, I was saying the opposite. When I was proposing the evil cycle of bump/point-increase/bump, it was based on the idea that the Guardians would always be compared to something or some other unit which gets more than they do. I think this is fallacy. So I do agree with you.


Giving Guardians a 4+ save and 16" range Assault 2 weapons seems like a good idea to me. Playtesting would reveal the best points cost for them, but I imagine it would be around 12 points, give or take.

So they become Dire Avengers then? Except for the 16" range thing, which I totally don't get.


Guardians shouldn't be IG equivalent meat-shields. They should be relatively tough, hard to catch, and lethal in their own right in moderate numbers.

If they're equivalent of IG meat shields, that's the player's fault... not the rules. Guardians can move while they have heavy weapons, they can move faster still when they don't, Storm Guardians can move and shoot flamers or fusion guns or assault at as much as WS5/I5 if you're using Ulthwe/USF.


However after reading Orbitals post i can also see the logic of the warlock upgrader, however this could lead to combinations becomeing ubictuioius, and does not stop min/maxing.

Warlock upgrades have nothing to do with stopping someone from min-maxing. That's not what they're for.

I don't understand what you mean about the ubiquitous combinations thing, though. I mean, we have that now; what's the harm of offering more options so we can break out of a rut?

Tarquinn
28-04-2006, 08:40
I like guardians. I have always used tons of them in my 2nd Editon Ulthwé army. The craftworld codex pretty much just confirmed what I was playing already for a long time (kinda weird in retrospective...).

I've switched from playing 2nd to playing 4th Edition only about one month ago and the only thing about the "new" guardians that truly annoys me is the goddamn awful range of the shuriken catapults.* I am slowly learning how to counteract this (transports), but being always in charge range after shooting is very disconcerting.

While I see that many of the proposed changes make sense in the context of the fluff, the only thing I really want is a longer ranged shuriken catapult.



*(Oh, and perhaps that the IG has the same armour save as guardians now. WTF? Just look at the models! ...but I can live with that. :))

Tarquinn
28-04-2006, 08:43
So they become Dire Avengers then?
Well, that's true only if you assume that Dire Avengers will not be changed or upgraded accordingly, which is, IMHO, unlikely.

Guardians (Defenders) have always been the downgraded versions of Dire Avengers, but I don't have to tell you that.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 08:45
Well, that's true only if you assume that Dire Avengers will not be changed or upgraded accordingly, which is, IMHO, unlikely.

You know what I meant. :)

Tarquinn
28-04-2006, 08:57
Most likely, yes. ;)

Adept
28-04-2006, 09:24
So they become Dire Avengers then? Except for the 16" range thing, which I totally don't get.

Only if Dire Avengers are not modified. Basically I'm saying that Shuricats should be Assault 2, 16" range, S4 AP5 or 6.


If they're equivalent of IG meat shields, that's the player's fault... not the rules.

They have the same toughness, similar weapons (I mean really, at least Lasguns can take that 24" shot if they want) the same armour, the same BS, and you want to reduce their price to make them even more of a horde troop. The only way a Guardian squad kills enemies is (bar it's heavy weapon) with massed small arms fire. And to do that it has to end it's turn in assault range of the enemy.

I believe Guardians should have superior armour, and a weapon that can hit it's enemies without having to be in assault range (more than 12"). That would give them the ability to move into range and engage the enemy without placing themselves at risk, which would vastly change the way players would use the squads. Ablative wounds for Starcannons no more! Guardians would become dangerous warriors in their own right, as they should be.

I'd still give Dire Avengers superior stats, which is really all thats needed to demonstrate the difference between full-time soldiers and militia.

Tiberius Frost
28-04-2006, 09:33
I agree with everyone here. Guardians should have plenty of upgraes because at the moment, they're downright hopeless. Unfluffy, overpriced, misrepresented, and underequipped.

I also feel a similar way regarding Space Marines. Space Marines are portrayed as always attacking in surgical strikes, when and where required, to disable the enemy's vital points of operations (it's all in the codex). To achieve the speed and efficiently to properly carry out this stated tactic, the Marines should clearly have skimmer tanks. I mean, it basically goes without saying. The basic marines should also be able to fleet of foot (their power armour increases their strength, why not?). They should also get the jetcycles back like in rogue trader (which was clearly a better game) for the same reasons.

Thank you.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 09:34
(Guardians vs Guardsmen) They have the same toughness, similar weapons (I mean really, at least Lasguns can take that 24" shot if they want) the same armour, the same BS, and you want to reduce their price to make them even more of a horde troop. The only way a Guardian squad kills enemies is (bar it's heavy weapon) with massed small arms fire. And to do that it has to end it's turn in assault range of the enemy.

You just kinda breezed right over what I said. Guardians can move 6" a turn with their heavy weapons. Guardsmen can't. Guardians without heavy weapons can fleet of foot. Guardsmen can't. I know their stats are similar, but it's not as if Guardians don't have significant movement bonuses which get them closer to the enemy than Guardsmen do.

And yeah. I would like to see Guardians' point cost lowered. I think it's a good idea. Keep 'em as they are, lower their point cost, power them up with Warlocks.

Gorbad Ironclaw
28-04-2006, 09:59
And yeah. I would like to see Guardians' point cost lowered. I think it's a good idea. Keep 'em as they are, lower their point cost, power them up with Warlocks.


I couldn't disagree more. Guardians are completly wrong as is, they most certainly shouldn't be cheaper. Ideal, I'd like to see them clock in at around 12 points, with the skills/equipment to match of course.

Should also have a squad size of 5-10. Allowing horde troops is so out of touch with the background I don't understand how it ever happened. It just plain doesn't make sense, or is in any way fitting for the army.

Eldars are a dying race, and every life is precious. They only engage in selective millitary engagements, and then primarely with the aspects, the guardians only being used when they really have to.

Especially on the scale 40k is played on, Guardians should be rare. They would make more of an appearance in Epic, due to it's greater scale.

But even if guardians are a citizen levy formation, they should still be skilled and well equipped. More like DE warriors than Guardsmen. And with a point cost to match.

Ideal, I'd like to see the guardians become WS/BS 4, with possibly a 4+ save, and the catapult become 24" Str 4 ap 5 Assault 1. Mid range mobile firepower, that can actually support the rest of the army, instead of standing around being meat shields for the grav platforms.

Yes, that would mean at least a 50% increase in points. But that would bring the army more in line with the fluff. And yes, Dire Avengers would need a serious upgrade too, but I'm sure that won't be a problem.

Adept
28-04-2006, 10:07
it's not as if Guardians don't have significant movement bonuses which get them closer to the enemy than Guardsmen do.

Granted. But those benefits are largely irrelevant. They still have to end their turn in assault range of the enemy if they want to fire, or they stay out of range and act as ablative wounds for their HW platform. They don't get the option of being maneuverable enough (which really has more to do with the weapon stats than their movement rules) to punish the enemy without putting themselves in assault range. Simply extending the range of the Shuricat would drastically change the way Guardians play. Giving them an armour save versus bolters would compound that change, leaving players able to effecively maneuver their Guardian and Dire Avenger squads in a very different way than they currently do.


And yeah. I would like to see Guardians' point cost lowered. I think it's a good idea. Keep 'em as they are, lower their point cost, power them up with Warlocks.

I think thats a very, very bad idea. It promotes the same images for both guardsmen and eldar citizens. To whit; they are cheap as chips, we don't care if we lose thousands in every engagement, because theirs billions more where they came from.

It's true for cheap, pansy guardsmen. It shouldn't be true for guardians. Eldar should be a relatively expensive, elite force.

Adept
28-04-2006, 10:09
Ideal, I'd like to see the guardians become WS/BS 4, with possibly a 4+ save, and the catapult become 24" Str 4 ap 5 Assault 1. Mid range mobile firepower, that can actually support the rest of the army, instead of standing around being meat shields for the grav platforms.

Neat, I like it.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 10:09
Granted. But those benefits are largely irrelevant.

I have this weird feeling you were going to say that no matter what. I have a sixth sense about these things. :)

Adept
28-04-2006, 10:14
I have this weird feeling you were going to say that no matter what. I have a sixth sense about these things. :)

No, it's just that deep down, you agree with me.

;)

But seriously, while the ability to take heavy weapons with you as you move is nifty, it doesn't translate into guardian squads being significantly more maneuverable. In order to shoot at the bad guys with their shuricats, they still need to move towards the enemy, and stand within assault range. All they can do is get there faster, which doesn't indicate maneuverability to me.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 10:19
No, it's just that deep down, you agree with me.

;)

But seriously, while the ability to take heavy weapons with you as you move is nifty, it doesn't translate into guardian squads being significantly more maneuverable. In order to shoot at the bad guys with their shuricats, they still need to move towards the enemy, and stand within assault range. All they can do is get there faster, which doesn't indicate maneuverability to me.

What you said was: "Guardians shouldn't be IG equivalent meat-shields. They should be relatively tough, hard to catch, and lethal in their own right in moderate numbers."

What I said was: "If they're equivalent of IG meat shields, that's the player's fault... not the rules. Guardians can move while they have heavy weapons, they can move faster still when they don't, Storm Guardians can move and shoot flamers or fusion guns or assault at as much as WS5/I5 if you're using Ulthwe/USF."

You said: "Irrelevant."

My response: "Okeydokey" :)

Adept
28-04-2006, 10:39
What you said was: "Guardians shouldn't be IG equivalent meat-shields. They should be relatively tough, hard to catch, and lethal in their own right in moderate numbers."

What I said was: "If they're equivalent of IG meat shields, that's the player's fault... not the rules. Guardians can move while they have heavy weapons, they can move faster still when they don't, Storm Guardians can move and shoot flamers or fusion guns or assault at as much as WS5/I5 if you're using Ulthwe/USF."

You said: "Irrelevant."

My response: "Okeydokey" :)

But it is irrelevant. Those changes don't significantly distance Guardians from Guardsmen. They don't make them tougher, more maneuverable, or lethal without the backing of mutiple heavy weapons. Both unit types fulfill the same role, of acting as ablative meatshields for the HW platforms.

Orbital
28-04-2006, 10:41
But it is irrelevant. Those changes don't significantly distance Guardians from Guardsmen. They don't make them tougher, more maneuverable, or lethal without the backing of mutiple heavy weapons. Both unit types fulfill the same role, of acting as ablative meatshields for the HW platforms.

Mmm! Peanut butter...

Harky
28-04-2006, 10:47
I have to say that lowering the points from 8 to 7 is a bit much, since the average guardian is still way better than a guardsman and a 1 point difference would make things a little unbalanced.

Lyinar
28-04-2006, 11:53
- Power fists, weapons, gloves, rubber chickens or anything else


POWER CHICKEN! *BGAWWWWK!-SPLAT!*

Sorry... Just had a vision of an Eldar Guardian viciously swinging an armour-ignoring chicken at someone...

As to the "rule of 6-inch", I can think of two good reasons why weapon ranges are only in multiples of six:

The first is that movement is in multiples of six.

The second is that Games Workshop is full of Slaanesh-worshipping heretics.

And neither theory is mutually exclusive to the other.

As to Guardians, the major problem is that everyone agrees they need SOMETHING, but so far no one's been able to figure out exactly what.

I do have to say that Wave Serpents work astoundingly well when stuffed full of Black Guardians, who can unload, have their Warlock blast the enemy with Destructor, and then empty up to 18 Shuricat shots without having taken casualties on the way there. Not to mention the added firepower of the Wave Serpent itself (and the vaguely :cheese:ish, Fish-of-Fury-style, "You can't assault me through my transport, but I can shoot at you from underneath it :p ")

Farseer Il`uvatar
28-04-2006, 15:11
What about the guardians manning tanks? This I feel is at least as large an issue as the shuri cat issue; maybe more so. The tanks are the game winners for Eldar, why doesn't any Craftworld, save a small section of Uthwe, see this, and man their tanks with trained soldiers. Hell, they could just power them with some dead aldar like the Wraithguard and Wraithlord to get a BS 4. Why are eldar tanks a joke when it comes to hitting crap?

Adept
28-04-2006, 19:30
Mmm! Peanut butter...

Ah, an airtight case I see.

Orbital
29-04-2006, 00:03
Ah, an airtight case I see.

Am I in court?

I don't agree with you, and I could choose to lock horns with you for pages and pages about the painfully microscopic trivia of whther Guardians' Fleet of Foot gives them an advantage over Imperial Guard. Instead, I'm just trying to diffuse what seems to be escalating into an argument with a little humor because, seriously, I don't dislike you nearly enough to start a real fight. That's all. :)

Adept
29-04-2006, 03:01
I don't dislike you nearly enough to start a real fight. That's all. :)

Well, I guess I've been slipping lately in the 'abrupt *******' department...

Ravening Wh0re
29-04-2006, 03:12
I agree on almost everything that Orbital has said. It would be nice for guardians to have a few more tricks up their sleeves, perhaps a bit of sting.
The warlocks power idea is a good one and it feels right.
I would also have guardians forms squads of minimum 10.
Overall, more options is good.

I always field a unit of 16 guardians (no hvy weapons) with a warlock with conceal and they do pretty well. They skip from cover to cover until I get them where they are needed and then they unleash a lotta S4 into the enemy.
Of course, to use them that way unsupported is folly, so there is always something nearby to help the firefight or to assault the remnants.
Many here bemoan the range of catapults saying the guardians will be in assault range, but the strength of Eldar is its ability to strike where and when it wants. They can hit hard and leave enemy units decimated.

I'm not so sure if they need to be reduced in points, but it'd might give me enough points for a second unit to support the first! :)

The main problem is that the most popular enemy is Marines(what with that wonderful armour and all), and that most see guardians as slow because they tote hvy weapons

Sareld
29-04-2006, 11:33
Hmm... Perhaps what we need is a clearer line between the defender and the storm class? Defenders could be those 7 point meatshields that trot around with a platform, while storm guardians could get some extra power, representing their past as aspect warriors, and thereby veterans over a hundred battles. Imagine if the defender guardians were kept as they are now, but with a minimum size of ten man/unit, and the storm guardians got the following changes:

+1WS and BS: The storm guardians have studied his/her shrines martial techniques to a degree where they become instinct rather than just skills that can be forgotten again.

Relics from the past: When an eldar leaves an aspect shrine after having showed courage and skill beyond the call of duty, he or she might be given his/her old weapon to keep in the future. 0-4 of the storm guardians can be given a power weapon, a fusion gun, or a set of mandiblasters for X points. Any number of the squad can replace his/her shuriken pistol and CCW for a shuriken catapult for free.

Squad size: 5-15.

Increased point cost: The point cost of the storm guardians are 9/model.

Vehicle crew: Storm guardians can be assigned to crew vehicles, at a cost of +15 points per weapon on the vehicle with an S of 5 or more.

Tactical withdrawl: The storm guardians are extremely valuable to their craftworld, and is therefor subject to the tactical withdrawl special rule.

I like the idea, because it doesent make the guardians look like mini-avengers, and because it seems so fluffy to me. On the side note, I should perhaps say that only defenders should count as "black" guardians for Ultwhé.

Gorbad Ironclaw
29-04-2006, 11:38
meatshields


Again, not a word that should be used to describe anything in the Eldar Codex. So designing a unit in such a way seems to go completly against the background and fell of the eldar army.

No meatshields. It's not a horde army that can throw countless life away to get an objective done.

Sareld
29-04-2006, 11:46
Again, not a word that should be used to describe anything in the Eldar Codex. So designing a unit in such a way seems to go completly against the background and fell of the eldar army.

No meatshields. It's not a horde army that can throw countless life away to get an objective done.

I personally agree, but guardians have always been just meatshields, and that seems to be what around half of the players want. That is why I proposed the new and improved storm guardian class, so players who like their eldar to be a fragile elite non-horde army can take them, while the players who want to play their eldar army as desperate fractions, who throw what they have on the battlefield can do that. Both choices are equally fluffy, but I personally wouldnt like to play the latter.

Orbital
29-04-2006, 18:11
I personally agree, but guardians have always been just meatshields, and that seems to be what around half of the players want.

I seriously don't know where you get this stuff.

Sareld
29-04-2006, 21:18
I seriously don't know where you get this stuff.


Read this thread.. It is full of people who dont want guardians to perform any better than they do now, but wants their price lowered to match their current abilities instead.. such as yourself. I know that it is not your intention to have guardians remain in the sad role that they have gotten in many peoples armies, but making them cheaper would only encourage people to use them as starcannon wounds even more than they do now.

Spell_of_Destruction
29-04-2006, 23:16
I will actually admit that whenever I use Guardians it has been for highly unglamorous battlefield duties. In 3rd ed: screening aspect warriors (ie. meatshields) but at least then they had better firepower than most other basic troops. Now I use them as "fly tape"; Goad the opponent into assaulting a massive Guardian squad (fearless if the Avatar is present) and then coutner attack with aspects.

I can't find many better uses for them and I absolutely refuse to min/max.

Given that with 4th ed Guardians lost their edge over most other basic troops (none of whom went up in cost points wise) I think that their abilities could be enhanced a little without altering their points cost.

Their current points cost is based on the 3rd ed rules system, as with much of the codex.

Lyinar
29-04-2006, 23:50
Well, right before they announced that "Eldar will be one of the next few Codices to be re-released", I was planning an Ulthwé Mecha-Speed-Serpents-of-Fury! list with everything either in Wave Serpents, one Falcon for my minimalist Seer Council, or able to move hella-fast on their own.

One of the things that inspired me to do that force (which I hope to do in the new Codex) is an observation on one Eldar Tactica that I've since forgotten the location to that the Shuriken Catapult wasn't a rifle, but was instead a submachinegun. A squad of Black Guardians with a Warlock in a Wave Serpent is worth much more than a number of guardians (even providing ablative shielding for a Starcannon) equal to the same points value. Being able to deploy within firing range with a Wave Serpent providing cover from enemy fire from the direction opposite it, extra firepower, and depending on how cheezy you want to get, the whole "NEENER NEENER! YOU CAN'T ASSAULT MY GUARDIANS BUT THEY CAN SHOOT YOU!!!! :p" thing, is MUCH more valuable (and indeed more fluffy) than sitting back and soaking up bullets headed toward your heavy weapon crews, and more valuable (and again more fluffy) than sending a charging, screaming horde of Guardians toward whatever you want to tie up in CC for a couple of rounds.