PDA

View Full Version : Powerfists need a change?



Oppressor
08-03-2012, 21:03
Hello everyone!


I was wondering if anyone else thinks that powerfists (and their kind from other armies) need to be changed to be able to have one attack at initiative using WS (if appliccable) in exchange for any more attacks if the player wishes.

I know fluff and real life are not supposed to be reflected in make believe land. My reasoning is that they are already really expensive and that they also already reduce the number of close combat attacks the model carring them can make if they aren't taken as a pair. They're also already only usable in close combat anyway.

I admit this idea is not exactly original, I still can't stop thinking of a superhuman that can wield all these other crazy weapons with ease and precision would not pull way back for a gigantic haymaker when running into or being charged in close combat with a giant powerfist.




Edit: Tried to be more clear.

Theocracity
08-03-2012, 21:19
Which point are you trying to make? You say that they already have plenty of drawbacks, why would you make them statistically abysmal? It makes no sense.


I still can't stop thinking of a superhuman that can wield all these other crazy weapons with ease and precision would not pull way back for a gigantic haymaker when running into or being charged in close combat with a giant powerfist.

So you can imagine a superhero using weapons properly, but then think that means they would do the stupidest punch imaginable?

Oppressor
08-03-2012, 21:28
@Theocracity:
I don't know what you read but, the option is to allow powerfists the option to forgo any number of possible attacks for one attack at initiative IF the player wishes to.

I just think having to wait until initiative 1 to make any number of attacks is rediculous.



Edit: misspelled your name, sorry!

loveless
08-03-2012, 21:32
I wouldn't mind getting the extra attack for ACCW with them without the pairing. They look ridiculous paired (yeah, Calgar, I said it!) and are typically too expensive to pair anyway. Of course, then you might have the issue of sergeants running in and gimping half of a unit on their own, so maybe that's too effective...

Meh, I probably wouldn't mind a change, but I definitely don't want fewer attacks with my punches.

Oppressor
08-03-2012, 21:34
I wouldn't mind getting the extra attack for ACCW with them without the pairing. They look ridiculous paired (yeah, Calgar, I said it!) and are typically too expensive to pair anyway. Of course, then you might have the issue of sergeants running in and gimping half of a unit on their own, so maybe that's too effective...

Meh, I probably wouldn't mind a change, but I definitely don't want fewer attacks with my punches.

You would not give up any attacks if you chose not to attack once at initiative.

ihavetoomuchminis
08-03-2012, 21:39
The only thing i would change about powerfists is that they should be in BtB with a model to hit it, and could be targeted by IC's and MC's in BtB.

Oppressor
08-03-2012, 21:40
How do I change the poll wording? It has a restriction on 100 characters and I tried my best but I think people are reading it wrong?

Theocracity
08-03-2012, 21:40
@Theocracity:
I don't know what you read but, the option is to allow powerfists the option to forgo any number of possible attacks for one attack at initiative IF the player wishes to.

I just think having to wait until initiative 1 to make any number of attacks is rediculous.



Edit: misspelled your name, sorry!

You're right, I missed the 'at initiative' part. That substantially changes it.

I still don't really agree with the change though - I think it's cleaner rules-wise for them to have a defined role. It also would be a huge buff for models without that many attacks to begin with.

ColShaw
08-03-2012, 21:52
I think they're fine as is. I like the idea of a big, cumbersome, hard-hitting weapon. It's got good points and tradeoffs. The fact that almost every Space Marine Sergeant carries one shows that most players think they're worth using, but striking last can cost them.

Leave 'em alone, says me.

loveless
08-03-2012, 21:57
You would not give up any attacks if you chose not to attack once at initiative.

Understood, I just don't see when that would be overly useful - I suppose models with 1 attack base who aren't charging. Otherwise I think I'd rather wait and smack 2+ enemies instead of 1, letting the rest of the squad take the blows where possible. Characters are likely to have some protective gimmick which further prevents their need to rush with a powerfist (or they have better weapon options to begin with).

Kevlar
08-03-2012, 23:29
The only thing i would change about powerfists is that they should be in BtB with a model to hit it, and could be targeted by IC's and MC's in BtB.

You mean like in 3ed where fists were worthless and ICs were unstoppable?

theunwantedbeing
08-03-2012, 23:46
I guess something to make everyone quit taking them all the time on unhurtable sargents would be quite nice.

KingDeath
09-03-2012, 00:02
I guess something to make everyone quit taking them all the time on unhurtable sargents would be quite nice.

Powerfists are ok as they are. They already are often a suboptimal choice on most champions/sargents thanks to their high cost and their limited utility in mechanised armies
(why would a squad that idealy never leaves it's rhino ever take a powerfist?)

big squig
09-03-2012, 00:31
I think they should grant you one attack at x2S, normal I, and should be the same cost as power weapons. You would still be able to use the rest of your attacks, they just wouldn't be PF attacks.

MajorWesJanson
09-03-2012, 02:44
Powerfists are fine. If any weaponsneed a change to rebalance them/ make them worth taking, it is plasma pistols. And maybe single lightning claws.

Battleworthy Arts
09-03-2012, 02:47
With the trade off of Initiative 1, I'm not sure why they are more expensive than power weapons... GW has a habit of overcompensating. Either striking at I1 OR paying more points would balance it, so naturally they choose BOTH.

Chapters Unwritten
09-03-2012, 03:56
What is in more need of a change is a thunder hammer. Currently, it really doesn't do anything. It's benefit over a fist is so minor that most people don't even bother to record/pay attention to it at my club.

Laughingmonk
09-03-2012, 04:15
I personally think there should be a point in having a character role with a chainsword.

big squig
09-03-2012, 06:10
What bothers me more, and this is just a pet peeve, is how lightning claws are mounted on powerfists, but aren't power fists. And thunder hammers are a hammer, but aren't power weapons.

If anything, lightning claws should be powerfists with some anti-infantry bonus, and thunder hammers should be power weapons with some anti-tank bonus. Then the weapons would actually reflect what they look like.

MajorWesJanson
09-03-2012, 07:10
What bothers me more, and this is just a pet peeve, is how lightning claws are mounted on powerfists, but aren't power fists. And thunder hammers are a hammer, but aren't power weapons.

If anything, lightning claws should be powerfists with some anti-infantry bonus, and thunder hammers should be power weapons with some anti-tank bonus. Then the weapons would actually reflect what they look like.

Powerfists and Thunderhammers are both slow because their attacks take time to deliver- a long swing or need to grab and tear. The Hammer has a strength boost because of the weight and swing, the fist due to the grab and crush. Lightning claws are mounted on a powerfist, but do damage by slashing with a bunch of parallel blades.

If I changed them, I'd make the Thunder Hammer do +1 on the damage chart for vehicles, but take away the stunned aspect. Lightning claws I'd allow the choice between rerolling hits as a power weapon, or use as a normal power fist.

Symrivven
09-03-2012, 08:14
Power fists are fine, being able to put a couple of str 8 power attacks in your unit that are virtually untouchable is good enough. The initiative reduction isn't that bad as the model will generally be able to strike anyway. The ability to threaten monstrous creatures, characters and vehicles makes them worth it and the only thing said characters and monsters can do to get rid of the fist is killing the whole damn unit, seems more than fine to me.

xxRavenxx
09-03-2012, 08:31
With the trade off of Initiative 1, I'm not sure why they are more expensive than power weapons... GW has a habit of overcompensating. Either striking at I1 OR paying more points would balance it, so naturally they choose BOTH.

Do you not think its because even at 10pts more, it is universally taken over a powerweapon on spacemarine sergeants?

I think powerfists are mostly fine. I do think powerweapons need to get strictly better to compete though. At 15 points, I think that a bonus attack or str would not go amiss.

Beppo1234
09-03-2012, 09:41
I wouldn't mind the I1 being removed from terminators, as they are kind of designed to do heavier stuff (ie. like how they don't suffer from move or fire with heavy weapons). But everything else is fine.

Bunnahabhain
09-03-2012, 10:48
Without wider changes, they're fine as they are. They're a bit ubiquitous though, mainly due to failing in other weapons.

However, I'd like to see big changes around instant death. In an ideal world, I'd have them as a powerful, slowish weapon, but leaving game space for things like thunder hammers to be more powerful.

Bubble Ghost
09-03-2012, 12:58
Instant death, and wound allocation. Abuse of wound allocation is a big part of what makes power fists so much better than power weapons for unit leaders. 2 power fist wounds kill 2 guys; 3 power weapon wounds kill 1 guy, if the rest of your squad is halfway competent. It just makes me want to scream.

As for the initiative 1 thing, that makes perfect sense. If I had a boxing glove and I was fighting against someone with a baseball bat, I'd kind of expect to have to get past the bat if I wanted to hit him. And this goes double if I was running towards him for 20-30 yards beforehand, not knowing whether he had a gun or not, whilst winding up for a "gigantic haymaker". So yeah, power fists aren't slow, they're just small.

IcedCrow
09-03-2012, 13:30
No. They don't need to be attacking at initiative. If a power fist or thunder hammer struck on initiative there would be little reason to not take them.

For mankind
09-03-2012, 13:52
As I voted that Powerfists should change in a diffrent way, my idea would be the following:

Powefist wouldn't doubel the Strength, but instead give a fixed bonus, say +2 and at the same time reduce the initative by -2, so a regular space marine would fight with a strength 6 Ini 2 power weapon.
another exampel: if you put powerfists on models with high initavite, a slaneesh Space Marine General could swing his powerfist at Ini 4, making it a more usefull option for indipendent charackters.
And it would also leave more room to define the role of the other weapons of the "powerfist"-familiy.
A chainfist would still have the 2 D6 armourpenetration to become way more defined as the dedicated anti Tank close combat weapon, and the Thunderhammer could become the "big-Brother" of the Powerfist, giving +3 Stregnth and -3 Initative, or +4 /-4.

So that would be my idea.

Vipoid
09-03-2012, 14:22
The only thing i would change about powerfists is that they should be in BtB with a model to hit it, and could be targeted by IC's and MC's in BtB.

I wouldn't mind something along these lines.

Basically, I don't think a sargeant should be allowed to single out an IC, but the IC isn't allowed to single out the sargeant.

Yes, he looks exactly like the other marines... except for the enormous fist he's wielding. SOme might call it a bit of a giveaway. :wtf:

And before people say "that's how it used to be and it made sargeants useless...", I'll point out that I'm just as happy for ICs *not* to be able to single out sargeants. However, in that case, those same sargeants shouldn't be able to single out ICs.


Aside from that, I think power fists should stay as they are. In fact, I'd say it's regular power weapons that need looking at. How often do you see sargeants armed with power weapons, as opposed to either power fists, or nothing at all? I mean, take IG - their sargeants/commissars etc. pay just 5pts more for a power fist, over a power weapon. Considering that their power weapons are S3, and probably going to be striking last anyway (Weee - I3), what's the incentive to use them?

Even SM sargeants don't gain a great deal - I4 is mediocre these days, and a few attacks at S4 isn't exactly anything to shout about. Now, most units that assault a tactical squad are going to beat it (otherwise they probably wouldn't be assaulting it in the first place), and a few power weapon attacks aren't going to change that. On the other hand, whilst a PF probably won't turn combat around, it can still chip a wound off a MC, damage a dreadnaught/sentinal or similar vehicle, potentially snipe an IC, or possibly kill another multi-wound model, such as a nob or paladin. Essentially, a PF is more likely to do *something*, and is effective against far more targets than a power weapon. The only real advantage of the power weapon is cost, but if you don't want to spend points on a PF, you'd save more points by skipping the power weapon too.

So, yeah, I think PFs are fine, but power weapons need something to make them a reasonably attractive choice.

IcedCrow
09-03-2012, 15:21
When the exceptional becomes the standard, that is the problem.

ColShaw
09-03-2012, 15:30
Aside from that, I think power fists should stay as they are. In fact, I'd say it's regular power weapons that need looking at. How often do you see sargeants armed with power weapons, as opposed to either power fists, or nothing at all? I mean, take IG - their sargeants/commissars etc. pay just 5pts more for a power fist, over a power weapon. Considering that their power weapons are S3, and probably going to be striking last anyway (Weee - I3), what's the incentive to use them?

Well, ordinary Infantry Squad Sergeants and Commissars actually can't take Powerfists. They're restricted to Sergeants in Veteran squads, Commissars in PCSs, and Platoon Commanders and higher ranks.

But the point is taken nonetheless; Guardsmen who can take Power Fists generally won't take Power Weapons.

Latro_
09-03-2012, 16:05
I'd be in favor of changing it so the model had a 'weapon' and then bought skills that made said weapon like a fist or power weapon etc... PFs are so entrenched as a no brainer on assault units you dont often see cool powerswords etc which is a shame purely from a look and feel modelleing viewpoint.

this will never happen ofc as the codex's are to entrenched with buying specific weapons.

Actually thinking about this you could mitigate this issue by instead of changing stuff, just add in a new weapon 'Custom' and you can configure it with several buffs at a pts cost. That would be hella cool and detract from PF spam. e.g. pay some pts it mimics a PF, pay some more it could have rending, etc etc

Bleekeboy
09-03-2012, 17:40
I think the power fist should strike for the half I instead of 1.
Becase The faster you reacht the faster you able to swing your fist.
I m not a power fist user, But i like the idea.

magnum12
09-03-2012, 18:01
Its not the power fist that's overpowered. Rather, the problem is that power weapons are underpowered. Cut the cost of power weapons and plasma pistols to 10 points (which incidentally enough is where they're costed for IG and IIRC Eldar.)

Vipoid
09-03-2012, 18:03
Cut the cost of power weapons and plasma pistols to 10 points (which incidentally enough is where they're costed for IG and IIRC Eldar.)

They still won't be taken.

IcedCrow
09-03-2012, 18:50
That's not true. They will be taken, just not by people who live and die by the math (which is a lot of people)

When vet sergeant-type models could be targeted, no one would take fists because they would get hit and killed before they could swing.

Now that vet sergeants can't be hit, it's mathematically superior to take a fist because S8 with no armor save means wounding on anything but a 1 normally, able to damage vehicles, able to damage monstrous creatures... versus a power weapon that wounds half or so the time, cannot damage vehicles, and has a hard time damaging monstrous creatures.

The utility of a power fist right now is just so mathematically superior in every way that it doesn't matter if power weapons cost 5 points or even free, people are going to take the fist because its utility and statistics are vastly superior. Even with hokey rules on power weapons, it still won't make up for the universal utility advantages just having the fist gives you.

Even striking at Init 1, the fist is by the numbers the superior option nearly always. The only time it's not is when you are up against fast models who can guarantee kill you before you get to use it. Those scenarios surely exist, but they are not common enough to sweat it.

Bringing power fists to +2Strength -2Init wouldn't be *bad*. It would put marines (the standard 40k comparison point) to S6. Strong enough to hurt Armor 12 vehicles, strong enough to potentially wing a monstrous creature, and able to kill most normal things on anything but a 1... though at that point I still think that for its points it would need to come up in value just a little more to be "balanced" against a power weapon that only negates armor saves but can't really hurt MCs or vehicles (the difference in utility between the fist and a normal power weapon is night & day and its points should reflect this)

Vipoid
09-03-2012, 19:08
Now that vet sergeants can't be hit, it's mathematically superior to take a fist because S8 with no armor save means wounding on anything but a 1 normally, able to damage vehicles, able to damage monstrous creatures... versus a power weapon that wounds half or so the time, cannot damage vehicles, and has a hard time damaging monstrous creatures.

The utility of a power fist right now is just so mathematically superior in every way that it doesn't matter if power weapons cost 5 points or even free, people are going to take the fist because its utility and statistics are vastly superior. Even with hokey rules on power weapons, it still won't make up for the universal utility advantages just having the fist gives you.

Even striking at Init 1, the fist is by the numbers the superior option nearly always. The only time it's not is when you are up against fast models who can guarantee kill you before you get to use it. Those scenarios surely exist, but they are not common enough to sweat it.

Agreed. The fist's only weakness is low initiative but a) I4 isn't especially impressive, and a lot of CC units will be striking before it anyway (the less said about power weapons on guardsmen and SoB, the better...) and b) since sargeants can't be singled out, the only way to stop the fist striking is to kill the entire squad.

The only time I could possibly see a power weapon being taken over a fist would be in something like a BA army, where a squad can have furious charge, since 4 S5 attacks at I5 isn't bad. However, even then, there are good reasons to take the fist.

Stonerhino
09-03-2012, 19:43
So you want Warscythes now???

Vipoid
09-03-2012, 19:49
So you want Warscythes now???

Are asking me or Icedcrow?

His last post seems more relevant to your query, but the fact that you posted after mine with no quote implies that you're asking me.


If you are asking me, then no; I've no desire to make PFs more like warscythes.

Stonerhino
09-03-2012, 20:12
Both, he made a statement and you agreed.

Sounds a lot like you want a weapon that wounds most things on a 2+, doubles out anything except MEQs and tougher and strikes at I>1. Ergo Warscythe.

Edit:
Not only that but would not change it for some of it's users. A GEQ "I" will still trike at I1 and will not hit as hard.

IcedCrow
09-03-2012, 20:54
My statement is not really geared toward what I want, just stating why I think people most often take fists over power weapons and one possible alternate that could drop them a peg (assuming one feels they need dropped a peg)

Personally what I want is a wargear limitation on armies, where things like fists come out of that pool of available items.

Oppressor
09-03-2012, 21:24
Personally what I want is a wargear limitation on armies, where things like fists come out of that pool of available items.

Aren't there already limitations though? Like who can take powerfists to begin with and their points cost? I know you mean from a seperate pool, and am not trying to split hairs with you, but is a seperate pool really necessary?


As for powerfists needing a change:
I was actually thinking about HQs when I made this thread, and then the idea sorta trickled down to anyone that cantake a powerfist. I just never liked the idea that you have to relly on having enough meatbags around you to block incomming attacks and die before you finally figure out how to throw a punch or try to kill the enemy. That's why I thought about allowing the player the ability to choose between one attack at initiative using WS if applicable (Babe Ruth swingin for the fences every time) or sit back and calculate your retaliation with all your attacks.

Stonerhino
09-03-2012, 21:33
Powerfist, are only used so often because they are effectively power weapons that can also fill other roles. A S4 power weapon is meaningless to a Wrathlord. But it can be hurt by a Powerfist. If you limit the number of availible powerfist to an army. You might limit their ability to deal with high armor vehicles and MCs.

Powerfist are about right as they are.

Edit:
HQs are normally ICs and can't have a bunch of meatbags protecting them before they swing. Another limit for using a powerfist.

Oppressor
09-03-2012, 21:44
PEdit:
HQs are normally ICs and can't have a bunch of meatbags protecting them before they swing. Another limit for using a powerfist.

Yeah, sorry, that's what I was supposed to be talking about, I originally was thinking of HQs and why would you ever take a powerfist on them even even with their invulnerable saves because they can always be singled out in close combat and never swing before dying. Then I thought about how much the powerfist costs to begin with and you don't get an extra attack with only one and then you should try and take a stormshield if you could to make sure you live to swing and it kinda snowballed from there.

Stonerhino
09-03-2012, 22:06
Think about it like this.

You have two MEQ ICs fighting each other in melee. One is equiped with a power sword and the other with a powerfist. The one with the power sword has to kill to the other before he swings. Because if the other swings and he fails whatever save he has. It will instant death him.

If they are equal then the power sword needs 4 attacks per wound to kill other, 4 swings, 2 hits, 1 wound. But has the potential to kill him before he even swings. But the powerfist only needs 2.41 attacks to ID the other, 2.4 swings, 1.2 hits, 1 ID wound. So he has more damage potential but has the chance of dieing before he gets to swing.

If the powerfist can swing at "I" even with only one attack. He has the same potential to ID the other IC with a slightly above average roll. Without the down side of potentially dieing before he swings.

madival
09-03-2012, 22:34
You know what I like? Options like the warscythe. Take your power fist. I will take a slight variation and strike at I2 but S7 as a power weapon. You honestly need more power weapon variations Over power fists changing. Although necron lords using the same variation of a relic blade is iffy.

Oppressor
09-03-2012, 22:36
Think about it like this.

You have two MEQ ICs fighting each other in melee. One is equiped with a power sword and the other with a powerfist. The one with the power sword has to kill to the other before he swings. Because if the other swings and he fails whatever save he has. It will instant death him. Right, the player that paid the points for the power fist has the option of forgoing any number of attacks at init 1 for one attack at init at 2xstr and ignores armor. The player that paid the lower points cost for a power weapon gets all his attacks at init and ignores armor.


If they are equal then the power sword needs 4 attacks per wound to kill other, 4 swings, 2 hits, 1 wound. But has the potential to kill him before he even swings. But the powerfist only needs 2.41 attacks to ID the other, 2.4 swings, 1.2 hits, 1 ID wound. So he has more damage potential but has the chance of dieing before he gets to swing.They are equal in that both meq ICs have the same base stats. The wargear you spent points on is what makes them not equal. It's not the powerfist's fault that the person that only bought a powersword decided to take a powersword.


If the powerfist can swing at "I" even with only one attack. He has the same potential to ID the other IC with a slightly above average roll. Without the down side of potentially dieing before he swings.Which is a tactical gamble based on only getting one attack, using WS, at init and having an invuln save failed. And the powersword is still making attacks as well anyway, even if statiscally it's only going to be one wound, it's not exactly going down before doing anything, like a powerfist currently does.

.5(equal ws) to hit x .8333(2+) to wound x .5(4+invuln) to ID = .2083333 to hit a home run, for 25 points if the player chooses to.

IcedCrow
10-03-2012, 04:45
Aren't there already limitations though? Like who can take powerfists to begin with and their points cost? I know you mean from a seperate pool, and am not trying to split hairs with you, but is a seperate pool really necessary?


I would like to see it implemented because when you read 40k novels, the veteran sergeants and the characters are all primarily armed with chainswords, etc... and power weapons of any kind are rare.

In 14 years of playing 40k the only veteran sergeants I ever see with chainswords lead devastator squads...

MajorWesJanson
10-03-2012, 05:41
Its not the power fist that's overpowered. Rather, the problem is that power weapons are underpowered. Cut the cost of power weapons and plasma pistols to 10 points (which incidentally enough is where they're costed for IG and IIRC Eldar.)

I agree. 5 is too cheap, 15 is too high. 10 is the Goldilocks standard for them.

Stonerhino
10-03-2012, 07:45
Which is a tactical gamble based on only getting one attack, using WS, at init and having an invuln save failed. And the powersword is still making attacks as well anyway, even if statiscally it's only going to be one wound, it's not exactly going down before doing anything, like a powerfist currently does.

.5(equal ws) to hit x .8333(2+) to wound x .5(4+invuln) to ID = .2083333 to hit a home run, for 25 points if the player chooses to.I kind of wanted you to make this argument.

Now because ICs are not the only ones who can use powerfist. This buff to powerfist you can take, say a Grey Hunter (A1) and removes every penalty for using a powerfist. And gives that Grey Hunter the ability to potentially kill a multi wound IC with a powerfist before that enemy strikes. Or forces that enemy to give up his multi-attacks and be limited to 1 attack. Or face a 50/50 chance of dieing before he can strike, not all ICs have a 4++.

That's not a buff for ICs using powerfist. It buffs everyone else that can use a powerfist against ICs.

big squig
10-03-2012, 07:49
I'm not keen on the idea of making power weapons better to make powerfists look worse. That's a very GW-ish philosophy that leads to things like codex creep. It's just an endless cycle of one-ups-man-ship.

Instead, PFs should be brought down to PW levels. They shouldn't be better, just different. AND should then be the same cost...which would unfortunately require either new codexes or errata/faqs.

Stonerhino
10-03-2012, 07:53
How about removing the "Ignores armor" part of the rules and have it strike at "I".

A powerfist would still have it's utility against vehicles.

The Red Pilgrim
10-03-2012, 08:00
Lightning claws I'd allow the choice between rerolling hits as a power weapon, or use as a normal power fist.

You may just have something here.

Norngahl
10-03-2012, 10:23
I think the rules for the weapons are fine as they are, but I'd think about the point costs.

Back then, 15 points for a PF were way to cheap, any noobseargent carried one for that point cost.. Now, 25 points is way to high IMO. I think it should be:

Power Weapon: 10 points / 5 points on non ICs..
Lightning Claw: 15 points
Power Fist: 20 Points
Thunderhummer: 25 points

Bunnahabhain
10-03-2012, 10:42
Would giving them two modes help?

i) Acts as normal power weapon
ii) Doubles strength- NOT power weapon
No need to make them I1 then, or have special rules on the bonus attack.

It allows taking a pair of them to grant both bonuses- you'd pay through the nose, but would get S6,8 or 10, power weapons, striking at I.
It also opens up game space for chain fists and thunder hammers to be clearly better than a 'mere' fist

KingDeath
10-03-2012, 12:17
How about removing the "Ignores armor" part of the rules and have it strike at "I".

A powerfist would still have it's utility against vehicles.

No it wouldn't. Powerfists already are fairely useless on non marines when it comes to fighting vehicles.
Even on a marine a powerfist isn't that great when you want to destroy vehicles, unless the vehicle is stationary.
Against walkers they are equaly meh ( only a 25% chance per attack to cause any damage at all against your average dread ).
Most of the time buying a combimelter is imo the better idea.

Oppressor
10-03-2012, 15:37
I kind of wanted you to make this argument.

Now because ICs are not the only ones who can use powerfist. This buff to powerfist you can take, say a Grey Hunter (A1) and removes every penalty for using a powerfist.
I don't see how, you're giving up all other possible attacks for one at init.


And gives that Grey Hunter the ability to potentially kill a multi wound IC with a powerfist before that enemy strikes.
Only if the IC has an init lower than 4, and only if the one hit connects.


Or forces that enemy to give up his multi-attacks and be limited to 1 attack.
I do not know where you got this idea from, I did not suggest this.


Or face a 50/50 chance of dieing before he can strike, not all ICs have a 4++.
It's not a 50/50 chance, it would be a .5 chance to have the one hit connect if their WSs are equal, the wound must still be rolled for as well. If we assume for the sake of argument that their WSs are egual, and that the str8 attack wounds on a 2+, that's still only a (.5 x .83333) .4166 chance to cause a str8 wound.


That's not a buff for ICs using powerfist. It buffs everyone else that can use a powerfist against ICs.
based on the above, I don't see how.



I'm really liking all the feedback and ideas, lots of good points are being made.

Vipoid
10-03-2012, 16:16
I don't see how, you're giving up all other possible attacks for one at init.

What other attacks?

A Grey Hunter has 1 attack.

With your rule, it would get a PF attack at normal initiative, and lose out on nothing. It doesn't lose any attacks, because it only has 1 to begin with.

logan054
10-03-2012, 16:32
I think the problem with power weapons (well power swords) was the lose of the parry rule, back in 2nd is actually had a reasonable advantage over (forcing rerolls), now its abit meh, I don't know if anything could be implemented effectively, I guess you have two options you either give PW a 2 handed and one handed option or you nerf powerfists, something like as now with +1 I one handed, +1/2strength -1 Initiative 2 handed, its that or take fists down to +2 strength (I would have this effect dreadnought CC weapons as well). reduces the amount of instant death weapons in CC, it also adds a little power to dreadnoughts in CC (being one of the few things that can ID models).

Oppressor
10-03-2012, 16:41
What other attacks?

A Grey Hunter has 1 attack.

With your rule, it would get a PF attack at normal initiative, and lose out on nothing. It doesn't lose any attacks, because it only has 1 to begin with.

You would not get an extra attack for charging or counter attack. And you would lose out on 25pts, and all the other attacks you could have made if you chose not to make the one attack at init.


I understand that my idea might not be the best solution, if one is even necessary, just defending it is all, a bit of devil's advocate i guess? Not trying to anger people.

Baaltor
10-03-2012, 19:48
I'm not keen on the idea of making power weapons better to make powerfists look worse. That's a very GW-ish philosophy that leads to things like codex creep. It's just an endless cycle of one-ups-man-ship.

I agree with your goal here, but I don't think that you're right in that we're improving power weapons to make Fists look better. Power weapons are actually pretty lame as it is, on top of the point decrease we're talking about, I'd probably add on +1S like they used to have (sort of, they struck at S5) so that they're useful against more than just marines.


How about removing the "Ignores armor" part of the rules and have it strike at "I".

A powerfist would still have it's utility against vehicles.

I was thinking about something like that a while back, but someone already posted what I thought would be the best solution:


Would giving them two modes help?

i) Acts as normal power weapon
ii) Doubles strength- NOT power weapon
No need to make them I1 then, or have special rules on the bonus attack.

It allows taking a pair of them to grant both bonuses- you'd pay through the nose, but would get S6,8 or 10, power weapons, striking at I.
It also opens up game space for chain fists and thunder hammers to be clearly better than a 'mere' fist

I didn't think of the pair thing though, I like that. Fluff wise I imagine only being able to use the power part by swinging the fist like a weapon, or the hydraulic part by getting a grip and crushing the opponent. Having both means you can pin someone with one, and perform a devastating blow with the other.

I'd personally have thunderhammers have the S, and the powerweapon status, AND keep high I, but increase the price hugely. Actually, that would make them the same as two fists fist, wouldn't it?


I think the rules for the weapons are fine as they are, but I'd think about the point costs.

Back then, 15 points for a PF were way to cheap, any noobseargent carried one for that point cost.. Now, 25 points is way to high IMO. I think it should be:

Power Weapon: 10 points / 5 points on non ICs..
Lightning Claw: 15 points
Power Fist: 20 Points
Thunderhummer: 25 points

I think fists are fine in price, if they weren't, why are they A: taken over every option, and B:Taken almost all the time?

Also, I'm not sure what a "Thunderhummer" is, but I bet it's not board appropriate, as we have kids reading these thread. ;)

Bubble Ghost
10-03-2012, 20:05
re. power weapons, it doesn't matter how cheap they get in points, because where they really sting you is the opportunity cost - if you have a power weapon, you don't have a power fist. Even if they were free, your choice would still basically be "power fist or no power fist?" You'd rarely actively choose to use the power weapon, you'd only use it because you had chosen not to use a power fist.

I can't help feeling like a lot of that would be mitigated if they started giving squad leaders like veteran sergeants bonus Initiative points on their profiles. Suddenly, without having changed at all, a power weapon upgrade would be worth having, because it would much more often have a chance to knock out a guy or two before they actually attack you; and it would be immune to wound allocation frustration for the same reasons as power fists are, i.e. striking in their own little pocket of time so your opponent can't stack all the wounds onto the same guy.

Project2501
10-03-2012, 20:32
I'd like see something done with powerweapons in general, not just powerfists. I'd rather see 6++ in CC for powerfists to hopefully allow them to swing. This wouldn't infringe on IC's invulnerable saves as well. I also like the idea of +1 initiative for powerswords.

Vipoid
10-03-2012, 20:38
Would giving them two modes help?

i) Acts as normal power weapon
ii) Doubles strength- NOT power weapon
No need to make them I1 then, or have special rules on the bonus attack.

Hmm, it's an interesting idea.

However, I can't help feeling that it would make standard power weapons worthless. I mean, in this case, fists do the same thing *and* have an additional ability for damaging vehicles.

Stonerhino
10-03-2012, 20:47
Only if the IC has an init lower than 4, and only if the one hit connects.Sorry, maybe I was not clear enough. I was talking about an IC with a powerfist. And it does not matter if their WS is equal. A WS6 Commander is still hit on a 4+. So it's a 50% chance to hit followed by an 83% chance of wounding. The 50/50 is just the to-hit because the odds are against living more then 1/6 times it happens.


based on the above, I don't see how.Lets say we have super leet MEQ SC IC named Meatblender. He has 30 attacks, power armor, I7, powerfist, plasma pistol and a special rule that lets him charge 30". If you don't kill him quikly he destroys every squad he charges.

Enter his arch nemesis, a Grey Humter with a powerfist.

Meatblender, charges the unit of Grey Hunters who successfully counter charge. The Grey Hunter with a powerfist holds up his hand as says "I elect to give up one attack and strike at I4". Meatblender, carefully weighs his options, 50/50 chance of death at I4 and destroy the unit. Or lose all of his attacks to strike at I7 and still face a 50/50 chance of dieing at I4.

What do you think he will choose???

For the Grey Hunter it's a huge buff while the SC suffers.

It would make for a cool special rule for a special character. Logan Grimnar, of the Space Wolves already has it, only better for example.

Oppressor
10-03-2012, 21:27
Sorry, maybe I was not clear enough. I was talking about an IC with a powerfist. And it does not matter if their WS is equal. It does matter as one will always have an advantage to hit otherwise.


A WS6 Commander is still hit on a 4+. So it's a 50% chance to be hit followed by an 83% chance of being wounding. The 50/50 is just the to-hit because the odds are against living more then 1/6 times it happens. I added the bolded be and being. The odds of the commander surviving are .79166666.


Lets say we have super leet MEQ SC IC named Meatblender. He has 30 attacks, power armor, I7, powerfist, plasma pistol and a special rule that lets him charge 30". If you don't kill him quikly he destroys every squad he charges. Enter his arch nemesis, a Grey Humter with a powerfist.

Meatblender, charges the unit of Grey Hunters who successfully counter charge. The Grey Hunter with a powerfist holds up his hand as says "I elect to give up one attack and strike at I4". Meatblender, carefully weighs his options, 50/50 chance of death at I4 and destroy the unit. Or lose all of his attacks to strike at I7 and still face a 50/50 chance of dieing at I4. Quite a bit wrong here.
The grey hunter can elect to give up all possible attacks for one attack at his initiative, which is 4.
Meatblender is looking at 2.24999 average wounds at initiative 4 (not including the GH w/PF) no matter what option he takes (27 attacks, half hit, half thos wound, 2/3rds are saved).
If you add in the 1 powerfist attack at init 4, this jumps to 2.66666. He will be dead either way.
Meatblender's decision is now, "Do I want to see if I can actually get to make an attack at all or do I want to take the chance and see if I can wipe out the squad even though my premature death is statiscally averaged to be garaunteed?" It's a tactical decision/gamble. But with my change, Meatblende actually has a chance to do something.


What do you think he will choose???Depends on many things, but for the sake of argument, I'd go for the one attack at init 7 since I have no invuln and am dead before I swing otherwise.


For the Grey Hunter it's a huge buff while the SC suffers.I still don't see how. Using your SC "Meatblender" the PFGH only has a .416666 chance to kill Meatblender at I4 with his 1 attack, which is unnecessary to begin with as all the other GH's attacks will kill Meatblender at initiave 4 anyway.



It would make for a cool special rule for a special character. Logan Grimnar, of the Space Wolves already has it, only better for example.Oh yeah, like I said in my first post, this idea is not exactly original ;).

logan054
10-03-2012, 21:41
I can't help feeling like a lot of that would be mitigated if they started giving squad leaders like veteran sergeants bonus Initiative points on their profiles. Suddenly, without having changed at all, a power weapon upgrade would be worth having, because it would much more often have a chance to knock out a guy or two before they actually attack you; and it would be immune to wound allocation frustration for the same reasons as power fists are, i.e. striking in their own little pocket of time so your opponent can't stack all the wounds onto the same guy.

I certainly thing additional initiative bonus agree would help some of the problems, but I wouldn't restrict it simply to squad leaders, I would personally do it something like:

Power weapons +1 I
Powerfists same
Thunderhammers same
Forceweapons Ignore armour save, and suck souls (rather than counting as power weapons)

its either that or you nerf powerfists to be just +2 strength, I1 but gain +1 attack from pistols and then keep thundershammers as they are, I think the main strength of a PF over a PW is simply they can cause ID on so many models yet cannot be targetted, removing that bonus does reduce the effectiveness of them, still allows them to hurt vehicles.

Stonerhino
10-03-2012, 21:52
we can make the scenario as outrageous as we want. Lets say it's a squad of 5 Grey Hunters and one has a PF.

At I4 = 12 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds, .99 wounds
PF at I4 = 1attack, .5 hits, .41 ID wounds

Minus the potential powerfist attack Meatblender is not going to die.

And Meatblender hitting on 3+ makes no difference to the guy with a powerfist. WS4-8 are all hit on 4+.


The odds of the commander surviving are .79166666.Where do you get that number from. It 50% base with a miss. With 16.6% of the other 50% chance to not wound. You end up with 50%+8.3% which equals 58.3% chance of surviving.

Calculate in Meatblender's one attack that has a 54.7% chance to kill one Grey Hunter at I7 and it doesn't change anything.

Oppressor
10-03-2012, 22:18
we can make the scenario as outrageous as we want.Umm.. Ok?


Lets say it's a squad of 5 Grey Hunters and one has a PF.

At I4 = 12 attacks, 6 hits, 3 wounds, .99 wounds
PF at I4 = 1attack, .5 hits, .41 ID wounds

Minus the potential powerfist attack Meatblender is not going to die..9999 is close enough for me but, for the sake of arguement, ok.


And Meatblender hitting on 3+ makes no difference to the guy with a powerfist trying to hit MeatblenderI added the bolded bit, and I don't remember saying otherwise. I said that WS is always important as unless they're equal, one will always have an advantage to hit.


Where do you get that number from.Commander or IC versus commander or IC, from your previous examples.

.5 to hit x .8333 to wound x .5 to save = .208333 chance to die or .791666666 to live.


It 50% base with a miss. With 16.6% of the other 50% chance to not wound. You end up with 50%+8.3% which equals 58.3% chance of surviving. Umm, .5 to hit (one attack at same WS) x .83333 to wound (str 8 versus T4) x .5 (4++) = .2083333 chance of dieing or .79166666 chance of living from one powerfist attack.


Calculate in Meatblender's one attack that has a 54.7% chance to kill one Grey Hunter at I7 and it doesn't change anything.Meatblender's one chance to swing before dying is .666666 (2/3 chance to hit) x .8333333 (chance to wound) = .55555555 wounds done with one PF attack at intiative 7 before death.

Edit: Spelling :(

Oppressor
10-03-2012, 23:24
I'm double checking, but I still don't see how what I suggest is favoring a GH with a PF over anyone else.

Even one vs. one;
Meatblender does .555555 wounds at intiative 7 to the GH with PF.
GH with PF does .416666 wounds at initiative 4 to Meatblender.

Meartlender still has the advantage.



Edit: Sorry, I thought that this would be added to my last post like on other boards.

and spelling... :(

Stonerhino
11-03-2012, 00:23
Meatblender's one chance to swing before dying is .666666 (2/3 chance to hit) x .8333333 (chance to wound) = .55555555 wounds done with one PF attack at intiative 7 before death.You are really going to nitpick over where we round the numbers off. 66%X83%=54.78%.

Stonerhino
11-03-2012, 00:28
The advantage is that it cost Meatblender more attacks to get one at I7. And if he chooses to get all of the attacks his player paid for. He risks not being able to attack at all. Because of a much cheaper model with far fewer attacks.

As it is Meatblender would kill the entire squad at I1 and risk that same Grey Hunter killing him. As in he would still get his entire offensive capabilities for that risk. With your idea he faces only having one attack and dieing or dieing before he gets to attack. Either way it's a net gain for the Grey Hunters and loss for the IC.

Oppressor
11-03-2012, 00:53
You are really going to nitpick over where we round the numbers off. 66%X83%=54.78%.

I was not trying to nitpicking, I am showing my work because you asked me before where I got my numbers from and I'm showing exactly what my calculator is saying. According to my calculator, .6repeated times .83repeated is exactly .5repeated.


The advantage is that it cost Meatblender more attacks to get one at I7.A cost he does not have to pay. Unless you mean points cost, in which case the PF is already accounted for in the SCs points cost and you are still free to choose a different SC as well.


And if he chooses to get all of the attacks his player paid for. He risks not being able to attack at all. Because of a much cheaper model with far fewer attacks.This is no different than right now. The math and scenarios you gave me show that the only favorites were the GHs without powerfists.


As it is Meatblender would kill the entire squad at I1 and risk that same Grey Hunter killing him.Using your examples, he would be dead before he swung, even without the PF wielding GH.


As in he would still get his entire offensive capabilities for that risk.Not according to the scenarios you've given or even one on one.


With your idea he faces only having one attack and dieing or dieing before he gets to attack. Either way it's a net gain for the Grey Hunters and loss for the IC.My suggestion allows him to get one attack before dieing either way, according to your scenarios.


You helped me show that SCs with PFs still get torrented down before doing anything by many attacks made before initiative 1, regardless if there's another powerfist user in the group. That's exactly what my suggestion is all about.



Edit: And if someone wants to spend the points on a PF for their GH to add only a .4166666 chance to kill at initiative 4, that's still not as good as adding another GH alone (or just more attacks in general).

It's a more tactical decision.

Stonerhino
11-03-2012, 10:15
It's as simple as an IC joins a squad and thus does not torrented down by the weight of attacks directed at them. Even Mephiston normally runs around with a unit and Sang Priest. So that he is harder to single out.

What your suggestion does is force a bad choice for the very model type you're trying to help. You'll maybe get one attack at "I" before the lesser model chooses to do the same and 50/50 kills the model.

The current rules allow the IC w/PF to get all of his attacks simotaniously with all of the other normal ID attacks. Something that generally enables them to be a threat even when facing death themselves. Your suggestion neuters them.

Project2501
11-03-2012, 10:40
It's as simple as an IC joins a squad and thus does not torrented down by the weight of attacks directed at them. Even Mephiston normally runs around with a unit and Sang Priest. So that he is harder to single out.

What?! ICs can most definately be singled out in CC. And mephy is a unit unto himself, he cannot join another. What rules and game are you playing?


What your suggestion does is force a bad choice for the very model type you're trying to help. You'll maybe get one attack at "I" before the lesser model chooses to do the same and 50/50 kills the model.I don't think you've read anything he's written, you keep making up rules he's not suggested. Also, you're math is wrong, please buy a calculator and use it.


The current rules allow the IC w/PF to get all of his attacks simotaniously with all of the other normal ID attacks.What!? Seriously, what game are you playing? Forceweapons ring a bell?


Something that generally enables them to be a threat even when facing death themselves. Your suggestion neuters them.I have no idea what you've been reading or taking IRL, but you're meatballer special toon would be dead without ever swinging in every scenario you spoonfed Oppressor thinking you were trapping him, when you were proving his point the whole time. With Oppressor's suggestion your meatballer actually gets a chance to do something before he bites it.

Oppressor
11-03-2012, 19:21
It's as simple as an IC joins a squad and thus does not torrented down by the weight of attacks directed at them. Even Mephiston normally runs around with a unit and Sang Priest. So that he is harder to single out.Quite a bit wrong here. ICs can be singled out in CC. Mephiston is a one man unit, he can't join others.


What your suggestion does is force a bad choice for the very model type you're trying to help.According to every scenario you gave, an IC with PF dies before doing anything to regular attacks made before init 1.


You'll maybe get one attack at "I" before the lesser model chooses to do the same and 50/50 kills the model. You'd have a .55555 chance to cause a wound before being torrented down by normal attacks. The lone powerfist GH attack is only a .416666 chance to wound.


The current rules allow the IC w/PF to get all of his attacks simotaniously with all of the other normal ID attacks. Umm, i don't think there is a such thing as normal ID attacks, because there are more than one way to ID somethig. Did you mean that currently the rulles make all powerfists initiative 1 only? I agree, that's the problem, it allows a PF weilding SC to die before doing anything.


Something that generally enables them to be a threat even when facing death themselves. I don't see how, especially after you helping me to confirm the opposite.


Your suggestion neuters them. I don't understand, we worked out that my suggestion helps them, together.



Stonerhino, of you don't like the idea, it's cool by me. You have every right to simply say you don't like it and vote against it and simply leave it at that. I am not trtlying to force an argument, I've just been defending my own suggestion using the scenarios you've given me. I'm not trying to make anyone out to be right or wrong or good or bad, it's all just ideas for a cool hobby.

Baaltor
11-03-2012, 20:50
Quite a bit wrong here. ICs can be singled out in CC. Mephiston is a one man unit, he can't join others.

I'm gonna guess that StoneRhino was thinking of the Priest joining Mephiston, not the reverse. Although I should point out to him if this is the case, that ICs cannot join units which must always consist of one model. Would be fun to have FNP against rockets and Manticore missiles though! :P

Oppressor
11-03-2012, 22:03
I'm gonna guess that StoneRhino was thinking of the Priest joining Mephiston, not the reverse. Although I should point out to him if this is the case, that ICs cannot join units which must always consist of one model. Would be fun to have FNP against rockets and Manticore missiles though! :P

Ah, yeah, sorry, the way he wrote it
Even Mephiston normally runs around with a unit and Sang Priest.made it sound like Mephiston was already with another unit, and the priest joined them.

Mephiston with a joined priest and unit would be scary as hell!



Edit: Omg the spelling!

Oppressor
11-03-2012, 22:50
Sooo, I think this thread has run it's course. I'd like to thank everyone that shared their ideas by posting or voting and everyone that even just took the time to read any of this and wish everyone happy games!