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View Full Version : Killing Blow/Heroic Killing Blow w/ Flaming Sword of Rhuin



Iraf
09-03-2012, 02:37
So, if you cast Flaming Sword of Rhuin on a unit with killing blow/ Heroic killing blow will that unit now KB/HKB on rolls of both 5 and 6, since the spell makes rolls to would of 5 a 6? Seems to me it would work, anyone else have any thoughts on the matter?

holtkmoq
09-03-2012, 02:48
It would still only work on a natural roll of a 6 as far as I am aware and I have only ever seen it played this way. The 5s would wound as if they were sixes but as they are not sixes on the dice then no killing blow would occur.

T10
09-03-2012, 07:20
Also, if +1 to wound means 5s count as 6s then 6s would count as 7s. :)

-T10

Iraf
09-03-2012, 13:38
Also, if +1 to wound means 5s count as 6s then 6s would count as 7s. :)

-T10

Oh snap...

Gaargod
09-03-2012, 14:21
Can't go higher than a 6, or lower than a 1. So that's out of the window.

Now normally, I'd say no - it specifically requires a dice roll of a 6. The only problem is that the FAQ does allow auto-wounding when normally wounding on a 2+ with Rhuin, and strictly speaking 1s are failures for wounding. I'd still say no though, as it doesn't specifically say 'fail on the roll of a 1', it's just anything less than a 2 is a fail. If that makes any sense...

hamsterwheel
09-03-2012, 17:07
My local gaming group plays that it does extend the KB rule to include 5s. Since it offers a +1 modifier to the roll rather than a Strength modifier then it should gain all of the benefits associated with such a modification just like +1 Strength also gives an additional -1 to armor saves if the Strength gain is greater than 3.

Hell Storm
09-03-2012, 18:15
Can't go higher than a 6, or lower than a 1. So that's out of the window.

No where does it say that. Even in the To Wound chart it states 6+, not just 6.


Now normally, I'd say no - it specifically requires a dice roll of a 6. The only problem is that the FAQ does allow auto-wounding when normally wounding on a 2+ with Rhuin, and strictly speaking 1s are failures for wounding. I'd still say no though, as it doesn't specifically say 'fail on the roll of a 1', it's just anything less than a 2 is a fail. If that makes any sense...

I would have to agree with you because of the statement that T10 made

Also, if +1 to wound means 5s count as 6s then 6s would count as 7s.

That makes a lot of sense and it states killing blow is only a 6.

theunwantedbeing
09-03-2012, 18:39
Don't you work out the modifier before rolling?

So if you need a 5+ to wound normally, the +1 turns it into a 4+ to wound.
Then you roll.
This has no effect on killing blow.

hamsterwheel
09-03-2012, 19:51
Don't you work out the modifier before rolling?

So if you need a 5+ to wound normally, the +1 turns it into a 4+ to wound.
Then you roll.
This has no effect on killing blow.

The spell tells you that you have a +1 modifier to the roll to wound so it doesn't actually change what you need to roll to wound but instead adds +1 to each die roll. It would have to be this way or auto-wounding with Flaming Sword would not be possible.

Damocles8
09-03-2012, 20:15
it's a good question, I could see it either way.

Dezartfox
09-03-2012, 20:34
Dice can go above 6, read the "Modifying Dice Rolls" at the beginning of the rules(pg7)

Killing blow says if a model rolls a 6. The final result of the dice is determined after modifiers, as per pg7, so 5's would be killing blow, but sixes would not, RAW.

RAI I would allow 5's and 6's to be killing blow.

T10
09-03-2012, 23:04
Don't you work out the modifier before rolling?

So if you need a 5+ to wound normally, the +1 turns it into a 4+ to wound.
Then you roll.
This has no effect on killing blow.

As hs been pointed out, there are actually rules that deal with dice roll modifiers, and these basically instruct us to add up the dice roll and the modifiers to get a numerical result.

It appears to me that they ignore this to some extent when it comes to shooting, since they focus on the modified target score rather than the modified dice roll.

For example, a model with BS 3 will hit on a roll of 4+. If the dice comes up as 5 and the modifier is -2 then the modified dice roll is 3: a miss. Now, this is essentially the same as adjusting the target score to 6+ (a roll of 5 is still a miss), and it is this second approach that is carried on when the rules start discussing "rolls of 7+ or more to hit".

It's a smoother mechanic, since the target score expresses a constant difficulty that encompasses both the characteristic value (which may vary from model to model) and the modifier (whic may vary depending on circumstance). A 4+ to hit is as representative of a BS 2 shot with a + 1 modifier as it is to BS 4 with a -1 modifier. It's a lot easier to write clearly than trying to explain how your to-hit roll of a natural 6 is a miss unless you can roll a 4+ or whatever.

It seems to me that GW cannot be assumed to be consistent in this. The closest thing we have is that if they say "you need a 6" then you apply the modifiers and try to get a 6, and if they say "you need a natural/unmodified 6" then you look at the actual dice before applying modifiers.

-T10

thesoundofmusica
10-03-2012, 05:54
As hs been pointed out, there are actually rules that deal with dice roll modifiers, and these basically instruct us to add up the dice roll and the modifiers to get a numerical result.

-T10

I havent played warhammer for several editions but I remember GW being ambiguous about it. Reading my Mordheim rulebook (which is what I'm currently playing) there is nothing that says either way. There are several hints, but really either way could work. It always made sense to me to apply the modifiers to 'your chance' rather than your dice roll to avoid situation where say you're at -1 to hit and would hit on 4+ (ws3 vs ws3) and automatically wound on a hit roll of 6. Now, with -1 to the dice roll, you end up with this: roll of 1-4= miss. 5-6= hit. But you couldnt get the auto wound coz that roll of 6 is modified to a 5.

With the method of applying modifiers to your chance (rather than your actual dice roll) you end up with a roll of 1-4 being miss, and 5-6 being hit and the 6 able to wound automatically. Just makes sense to me.

Also having read many BRs over the years I never seen any mention of "results of 7" so to speak. I mean if they used the method of applying modifiers to your dice and it was a matter of getting a numerical result wouldnt you see at least a few "rolls"(results) of 7 or 0 even? But it seems to me the result of a roll is always 1-6.

example 1 (numerical result): ws4 vs ws3 you need 3+ to hit, and with a +1 to hit magic sword you need a roll of 2 or more. 7! He hits. (never seen this in any BR, altho it might be assumed that they just post the dice roll and everyone is meant to add or subtract modifiers themselfs in their head.... doesnt really make sense to me if using a numerical result approach).

example 2 (applying modifiers to chance): ws 4 vs ws3 you need 3+ to hit and with the same magic sword you need 2+. Rolling the dice you get 2! hit. (seen this in plenty BRs)


So like I said, I havent played warhammer for several editions and mordheim is quite old. Perhaps rollling has changed since I last played. Just throwing it out there =)

jtrowell
12-03-2012, 13:17
From what I remenber, in the rule book poisonned attacks and KB have a different text, one of them saying that only works on *natural* 6, and not the other.

However, this was in the french version, so there might be a loss of information due to the translation, and I don't remenber which of the two rules was only supposed to work on a natural six.

Someone with the rulebook in english should be able to confirm the original text.

EDMM
12-03-2012, 16:49
If a model with the Killing Blow special rule rolls a 6 to wound in close combat, he automatically slays his opponent - regardless of the number of wounds on the victim's profile...

Just on a 6. Not a 6+. Therefore not on a 7.

theunwantedbeing
12-03-2012, 17:20
Someone with the rulebook in english should be able to confirm the original text.

Killing blow slays on a roll of a 6 to wound.
Poison wounds on a natural dice roll of a 6.

So looks like killing blow with the Flaming sword causes a wound on a roll of a 5 (turned into a 6) but not on a 6(turned into a 7).
Bit wierd.

T10
12-03-2012, 21:15
It also means that any negative modifier to the To Wound roll will effectively negate Killing Blow unless countered by an positive modifier of equal or greater magnitude.

-T10

hazmiter
13-03-2012, 04:07
My head is spinning from this.......
But I agree to disagree, if rhuin is used, then kb is done on a 5 not a six, so when rolling your hoping for 5s not sixes.
Is rather skip the special rule shennanigans, and just use it on the hydra..... Str 5, +1 to wound, equals plenty of dead things, and allows his thunder stomp to be more nasty.
No modifiers to armour saves etc, its just as though they had the ws to do it.
Plus its flaming and magical, so would null and void poison.....

Iraf
13-03-2012, 11:50
Magical doesn't null and void poison, Magical weapons null and void poison. (but that belongs in another thread)