PDA

View Full Version : Daemon Prince, needs a change?



Dark Primus
09-03-2012, 22:16
Just a curiousity from my part but what is your view of the Daemon Prince from both Codex CSM and codex Chaos Daemons, do you think they need to change? Statswise, rulewise? Or do you think they are just perfect and don't need to change?

My own opinion is I think each general DP from each of the Chaos gods should have total different statlines and special rules and of course loads of options to boost them up further. Just having different marks is not really good enough to show the difference, I think they need something far more solid than that.
And I would prefer to give them Daemon Weapons and options for other wargears including shooting weapons as a viable option as well.

Shamana
09-03-2012, 22:21
I think the current marks don't work half bad for DPs, to be honest. They could use extra wargear, though, what with the whole "greatest warriors of Chaos" and all.

Fawful
09-03-2012, 22:40
I'd say they are pretty good as is. They could do with a better invulnerable save to start with though and maybe one more wound. This would increase the basic price but that would balance out if some of the upgrades get cheaper (60 points for wings is ridiculous). Some more arcane wargear would also be welcome with them being the chosen champions of their god and all.

Ozendorph
09-03-2012, 22:41
CSM - Currently a great unit choice (to the point where Chaos Lords are largely unused). Wings will get a price increase next book, it seems. I'd love it if they had access to daemon weapons as a way to further differentiate the marks and add some zazz. It'd be nice if they included a Khornate upgrade option or two, to make up for the lack of psychic powers.

Daemons - the DP in the daemons book is pretty dang good. I do see a lot more Nurgle princes than any other, the +1 T is hard to pass up.

Scammel
09-03-2012, 22:43
I feel there's a bit of diconnect between fluff and rules for Princes (you know, slayers of star systems and all that, then get torrented by bolters), but that's standard fare for many units and I think they generally work fine as they are now. In terms of options, I agree there could be more in the CSM book, the Daemon book has a very broad selection even if some of the options are a bit overpriced, though I suppose that's partly down to age. We'll have to wait and see what the books bring I suppose.

Mánagarmr
09-03-2012, 22:52
The recent FAQ nerf to warptime hurt the C:CSM version a bit, but it's still not a bad choice for the points. They could use some more wargear options to make them standout, however.

As for C:CD, they're a bit pricey for what they do. Maybe a slight price reduction in their next book.

KingDeath
09-03-2012, 23:59
Princes are currently quite meh. It is only the utter suckiness of the other csm hq choices that makes them good in comparision.
To make a prince even usable he needs both the mark of nurgle and wings, otherwise he is either too soft ( lol t5 ) or too slow.
Of course adding these things makes the prince much less of a bargain than he first appeared to be.

Actualy useful psychic powers might be a start. t6 base, even at the cost of a slight points increase, might be equaly good.
More options are, of course, always great.

grey knights rock
10-03-2012, 00:18
I think the chaos daemons one is great starting price, but it's upgrades are way to exspensive. like previously said, ings 60 points? also a bolt prince costs 140 points with no other upgrades. thats not very good for what it does, and that is kinda cheap as daemon princes go.

twistedmarine
10-03-2012, 01:00
C:Csm, I think a khorne greater daemon needs help. He's the least killy of them all. Daemon weapons could help this, or just boosting its base attacks.

KeyOfTwilight
10-03-2012, 01:57
make the DPs the same as they were in 3.5, and I bet they would be balanced out to the level of cheese that is in the current codexes. Or at least give them EW.

Charistoph
10-03-2012, 04:11
I know many would kill to have the CD DP options for the CSM DP. 3.5 to 4th was like going from a Carnival Cruise Line to the Super 8. Yeah, sure, it's still a bed, and you're on vacation, but the options available to you are SO limited. Even the 3rd Edition Daemon Prince had more options than the 4th! And the differences are: The Gifts. What Gifts are in the 4th Edition codecies? Wings, Marks, and Psychic Powers for Space Marines? A few more for the Daemon Heavy? Meanwhile, there was a plethora of Gifts in the previous codecies!

wyvirn
10-03-2012, 04:15
I think DP are fine. If I think mine need some changing, I'll slap a mark of Tzeentch on em!

MajorWesJanson
10-03-2012, 05:39
More wargear/gifts options, make the marks a bit more special than just +1 to a stat. Let you boost any stat with gifts. Replace Fearless with Stubborn and add different results for leadership failure based on mark to represent their faith/patronage failing
Khorne- 2+ save vs psychic powers and force weapons. Leadership fail -1A
Slaanesh- Psychotroke grenade equivalent. Leadership fail -1I
Tzeentch- +2 Psychic Mastery level. Leadership fail loses a psyker level
Nurgle- Weapons that wound on a fixed value (Poison, ect) only wound on a 5+. Leadership fail -1T

Reivax26
10-03-2012, 07:08
As a Chaos Daemons player I have to put in my 2 cents here. The Nurgle Prince with wings decked out for CC is better than the Khorne equivalent. That is so wrong that its ridiculous. The Nurgle one should have Feel No Pain and the Khorne one should get 1d3 attacks when it charges as well as having +1 attack. The wings are too expensive.

The Red Pilgrim
10-03-2012, 07:13
C:CSM's Prince is pretty mediocre. He only "shines", because our other choices are so bad. Then, GW, for some bizarre reason, felt the need to nerf warptime, crippling them even more.

Honestly, I think they need some improvements in our next codex. More wargear and gift options, for a reasonable price. I'd also think that toughness six, standard, would be fair.

Chapters Unwritten
10-03-2012, 17:31
I am of the opinion that a daemon prince should be one of the most terrifying entities in all of the game, with the Greater Daemon being better than it by a small margin.

Story-wise, a daemon prince is pretty much the epitome of daemonic power and they should have tons of immense strengths in the tabletop. The way THSS Terminators are the hammer unit of an SM force, so should a Daemon Prince be to a Chaos force. It should be a terrifying prospect and difficult to kill, and should also have a huge variety of upgrades available to it that represent different styles or marks. I'd like to see DPs that have support bonuses too, like maybe one could spawn Daemons or something; grant bonuses to nearby troops; maybe even have something like that GK rule where it can make some units have different rules for scoring or movement. They should probably ditch psychic powers, since them having access to them makes the Sorceror less desirable. And aren't these guys bursting with warp power? Let's see that represented by Chaos psykers nearby having stronger powers or easier rolls.

The current Daemon Princes are not even close to any of this. I feel there is a lot of room for improvement.

ihavetoomuchminis
10-03-2012, 18:27
I can talk about the Daemons one.

As others have said, Cost is right, but upgrades are way too expensive, and marks are quite meh. All the upgrades should be reduced in cost a 33%. And marks should offer something more like:

Khorne: +1 A and prefered enemy.
Nurgle: +1T and FNP.
Tzeentch: +1 Inv. Save and Daemonic Gaze (wich won't be an option for other DP's).
Slaanesh: +2I and Fleet.

And they should be Heavy support 1-3 per slot (all with the same upgrades), with no available Wings Upgrade.

Winged DP's should be Fast Attack, 1-3 per slot, with no available Ironhide upgrade.

Kevlar
10-03-2012, 20:02
CSM - Currently a great unit choice (to the point where Chaos Lords are largely unused).

It isn't that they are a great choice. It is they are the only choice with Eternal Warrior. Chaos Lord is dead with one whack from a power fist and you have no option to get it for him like all the loyalists do. Not to mention no wargear for invulnerable saves, you have to take a crappy Tzeench lord to even get a 4+. Chaos threw away all their storm shields when they went heretic I guess, and don't know how to loot them off dead loyalists.

Chem-Dog
11-03-2012, 01:26
I'd like DP's reverted back to their place as the pinacle of Daemonhood higher even than the Greater Daemons.
I also think they can be a little lacklustre and tend to be very formulaic, it'd be nice if there was some choice as to how you build them. Do you ever see a DP without wings? Do you ever encounter one without Iron Hide?

Oh, and a 5+ Inv is pretty poor for an MC with T5 (I know others come off poorer, but it doesn't mean the DP has it great).

MajorWesJanson
11-03-2012, 01:30
I can talk about the Daemons one.

As others have said, Cost is right, but upgrades are way too expensive, and marks are quite meh. All the upgrades should be reduced in cost a 33%. And marks should offer something more like:

Khorne: +1 A and prefered enemy.
Nurgle: +1T and FNP.
Tzeentch: +1 Inv. Save and Daemonic Gaze (wich won't be an option for other DP's).
Slaanesh: +2I and Fleet.

And they should be Heavy support 1-3 per slot (all with the same upgrades), with no available Wings Upgrade.

Winged DP's should be Fast Attack, 1-3 per slot, with no available Ironhide upgrade.


Daemon Princes should not be a multiple slot unit. Single models, Leadership and Heavy Support only. Princes and Greater daemons are not cannon fodder or even units. They are the most powerful manifestations of their patron gods. Greater Daemons form in the warp, Daemon Princes are elevated from mortals.

ihavetoomuchminis
11-03-2012, 14:25
But at least you should accept that it would be funny to have MC units. :)

Chem-Dog
11-03-2012, 20:20
Ask the Tyranid Players ;)

Or anyone who's used the DP-Tag-Team units available in Apoc and Spearhead (if anyone's ever actually played spearhead).

Dark Primus
13-03-2012, 17:44
DP with 1-3 taking up one slot would feel a bit cheap, as if there was plenty of DP's out there, just feels wrong.
You can upgrade a Tzeentch DP to 330 pts, and still has only 3+ armor saves and T5, its just not worth it, it wont earn it points back.
All DP's should have the option to become T6 and 2+ armor. They should be a terrifying unit to attack, making all other CC units or CC special characters think twice to attack.

Gorbad Ironclaw
13-03-2012, 18:12
But at least you should accept that it would be funny to have MC units. :)

I don't think there is anything wrong with having a unit of multiple demonic MC as an option. It just shouldn't be called a Demon Prince then. They are supposedly the end goal of mortal worshippers, utterly dedicated to their god and having committed legendary atrocities in their name. They really should be a lot more powerful and individual than they are currently. Slightly more practical than the version we saw in 2nd ed but something along those lines.

Cheeslord
13-03-2012, 23:18
I quite like the CD: Daemon Princes, though of course they are doomed to get left behind by codex creep etc. they are well balanced for a codex of that age and have a lot of options. I think possibly Iron Hide and Flight are just a bit pricey, and I just don't think Pavane was ever worth the cost. 140 points for a "cheap" tzeentch bolt Platform that can also rip apart a dreadnought or a pre-space wolves marine squad in close combat isn't bad.

Mark.