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Inquisitor lorr
26-04-2006, 19:05
Hi all,

I am thinking about doing a space marine pre heresy army and was wondering about some facts and stuff(i want to know anyway but if i was to do an army i want it to be right)So for the benefit of me and i hope others,i am asking you,members of warseer to hekp me out by copying and pasting the below but adding any useful bits,anything i miss etc;)

so here goes:

Things that weren't around:

stormbolters
whirlwinds(debatable)
assault cannons(debatable-experimental)
infantry thunder hammers
predator annihalators
land raider crusader
vindictaors
crux terminatus
...


Legion/colour/badge

Ultramarines/blue/inverted omega

Dark angels/black/

Blood angels/red/

Space wolves/grey/

Thousand sons/red/

Death guard/white/

Lunar wolves/pearl white/wolves head on a crescent background
(sons of Horus/grey-green /eye of Horus)


Iron hands/black/

Raven guard/black/

Imperial Fists/yellow/

Emperors children/purple/

World eaters/white/

Word bearers/dark stone grey/burning book

Salamanders/green

Night lords/blue

White scars/white

Alpha legion/purple-blue

Iron warriors/metal




Legion notes
From Dakkagor:

Plasma weapons where more common, and terminator armour was not equipped with a crux terminatus (The crux is a campaign badge for the siege of the emperors palace, and each has a tiny shard of the emperors armour in it!)

The imperial army would have had access to landraiders (or atleast a few before they where requisitioned by the loyalist marine legions) and other wierder stuff. Overall command of any army would have fallen to a primarch, and each force would have mingled marines and imperial army forces freely.

From Inquis Jaeger

Anything up to Mk8 in service, although Mk7 would have been very rare. Mks 4, 5 and 6 were common as these were cheaper to produce in the cash-strapped Great Crusade. Studded shoulder pads and other armour pieces were also common, although they were never utilised on the left hand side of the body, always the right, as they were cheaper, but offered less protection.

Legion organisation varied greatly. Seemingly, the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus were organised into 'Companies' of around 300 men led by a Captain. Overall command, of course, was ultimately a Primarch. 'Command Squads', as they appear in Codex Space Marines did not really exist, and individual specialists were attached as needed to individual squads. Command Squads were usually some form of 'Honour Guard' and merely consisted of close-combat vets.

From Brother othorio

Mk2: (Crusade) standard issue during the Great Crusade
Mk3: (Iron) clumsy, awkward uparmoured Mk2 variant used only for boarding actions, tunnel fighting and frontal assaults, never intended to replace Mk2
Mk4: (Maximus) in the process of replaceing Mk2 & 3 at the outbreak of the Horus Heresy
Mk5: (Heresy) stopgap armour introduced during the Heresy to replaced Mk2-4 suits
Mk6: (Corvus) replacement for Mk5, went into service just prior to the Siege of Terra
Mk7: (Eagle) replacement for Mk5/6, some prototypes saw use during the Siege of Terra, production didnt start for several months afterwards
Mk8: (Errant) invented some time in m41 by the Mentor Legion chapter..

also the studs DID go on the left, since they were intended to REINFORCE the armour




well this may be a total failure ....or not

PS:any pics are welcome

Inquisitor Engel
26-04-2006, 19:12
Word Bearers were originally black. Their Legion symbol was a burning book.

BloodiedSword
26-04-2006, 19:22
Assault Cannons didn't exist back then.

As far as I know, the Baal and Annihilator classes of Predators weren't around either (Annihilator being invented by some Chapter improvising anti tank predators), and I don't think the Razorback was either.

Inquisitor lorr
26-04-2006, 19:23
Thanking you Engel and bloodied sword :D -edited appropriately

squigsnok
26-04-2006, 19:35
Assault Cannons didn't exist back then.


Actually, IIRC the Baal was used exclusively by the Blood Angels Legion during the crusade after they rediscovered the STC template for it. The assault cannon did exist, but it was a more tempramental version. It was very prone to jamming, and as such the space marine legions of the time prefered the far more reliable reaper autocannon as their role at the time demanded reliability. Although this is contradictiory fluff (some say it was around, some say it wasnt) so it's very much debatable whether it was around

The storm bolter was in the experimental phase at the start of the heresy, hence why the Talon of Horus used to have one integrated into it (its a combi bolter in the new chaos dex though) but it wasnt a standard piece of wargear in any way.


Lunar wolves/grey/


One quick note on you're legion list. The Luna Wolves had pearl-white armour, but this changed to grey when they changed their name to the Sons of Horus following the Ullanor campaign.
The original symbol of the luna wolves was a face-on wolf's head over a cresent. This changed to an eye when the name changed (As Horus was "the Emperor's vigilance, and the Eye of Terra").

gathering_darkness
26-04-2006, 19:58
Ref assault cannons, is it possible that this piece of equipment was only used by a few legions? This may help explain the contradictory fluff.

BTW Lorr, which legion in particular are you thinking of collecting?

Inquisitor lorr
26-04-2006, 20:19
I'm not too sure ,im hoping this thread will convinve me one way or the other but im looking at :

Death guard
lunar wolves
Emperors children

Partly because the last two,i haven't seen before and i know a fair few people do death guard but they look really cool..:D

thanks everyone.....keep em coming

Dakkagor
26-04-2006, 20:30
Both landspeeders and jumppacks where a rarity. None of the land raider FW variants, or the crusader. Only predators around where the destructors (no lascannons available anywhere in marine armour except for land raiders)
Thunderhammers only available as a dreadnaught CC weapon (very old fluff that, but explains why the traitor legion don't get them)
No vindicators either (though I'm not to sure there)

Plasma weapons where more common, and terminator armour was not equipped with a crux terminatus (The crux is a campaign badge for the siege of the emperors palace, and each has a tiny shard of the emperors armour in it!)

The imperial army would have had access to landraiders (or atleast a few before they where requisitioned by the loyalist marine legions) and other wierder stuff. Overall command of any army would have fallen to a primarch, and each force would have mingled marines and imperial army forces freely.

Warp Zero
26-04-2006, 20:34
Word Bearers were originally black. Their Legion symbol was a burning book.

I have the Index Astartes book here, and I think its actually more like dark stone grey. Word Bearers' armor is painted to look like dark stone with prayers and other words carved into it. On the thigh plates, shoulder plates, etc. In the book "Horus Rising", the Word Bearers' armor is also described as stone grey too.

Also in the Index Astartes books, when the Lunar Wolves switched to the Sons of Horus, it was more like really pale grey/jade. Like a pale jade color. As if you took Fortress Grey and put a tiny tiny bit of torquise in it. Then the trimming was black. The chapter symbol the Egyptian style of the eye of Horus.

Outcast
26-04-2006, 20:51
Melta weaponry was on the experimental stage, so there for wasn't used at all.

HiredSword.
26-04-2006, 20:57
i agree with you, i've never seen an EC of LW army, i think either would look excellent. Please keep us updated with which one you'll do.

BloodiedSword
26-04-2006, 21:00
Oh and of course don't forget marines on jetbikes! Awesomeness all round.

Check the Horus Heresy CCG artwork for a pic of an Emperor's Children jetbike.

Marshal Draziel
26-04-2006, 21:07
well - if you decide to do it from the Black Librarys Horus Heresy trilogy, then there's much to include that isn't GW fluff correct. (Stormbolters, Power fists, ect)

Lascannon squads (10-20 lascannons!!) Plasma Support Squads (again, 10-20 plasma gunners) This is very much, Black Librarys own interpretation of the universe - but I certainly like it... :P

bigred
26-04-2006, 21:09
Shameless self promotion.....

Go Pre-Heresy Deathguard, Sir may I please point you this way...

Bigred's Olde Tyme Pre-heresy Equipment Primer:

http://www.warseer.net/forums/showthread.php?p=495125#post495125

Bigred's Pre-Heresy Deathguard Army Concept:

http://www.warseer.net/forums/showthread.php?p=557207#post557207

And Last but Not Least!: Bigred's Pre-Heresy DeathGuard Pics:

http://www.warseer.net/forums/showthread.php?p=557334#post557334

Enjoy!

-bigred

squigsnok
26-04-2006, 21:09
there's much to include that isn't GW fluff correct. (Stormbolters, Power fists, ect)

Power fists were around at the time of the heresy. Power weapons were rarer, however, because the technology to make smaller power generators for blades wasn't as widely understood.

Marshal Draziel
26-04-2006, 21:15
oh well, a small miscalculation from my side..

What I tried to promote was - - - the lascannon squads :D

squigsnok
26-04-2006, 21:17
oh well, a small miscalculation from my side..

My point was mostly - - - the lascannon squads :D

Which, lets face it, we all want to use :evilgrin:

Marshal Draziel
26-04-2006, 21:18
Amen brother!

Dakkagor
26-04-2006, 21:20
Inquisitor Lorr, you got the reference wrong. Destructors WHERE around, they where the ones with autocannons and heavy bolters. The annihilator pattern was the one absent from heresy armies. Also, at this point the predator chassis could transport a small amount of marines. (maybe a five man squad?)

Inquisitor lorr
26-04-2006, 22:11
oops sorry-i just remember the no lascannons whilst i was editng my post and i always get the two mixed up:rolleyes: -i'll fix it pronto

Inquis. Jaeger
26-04-2006, 22:23
As regarding armour marks -

Anything up to Mk8 in service, although Mk7 would have been very rare. Mks 4, 5 and 6 were common as these were cheaper to produce in the cash-strapped Great Crusade. Studded shoulder pads and other armour pieces were also common, although they were never utilised on the left hand side of the body, always the right, as they were cheaper, but offered less protection.

Legion organisation varied greatly. Seemingly, the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus were organised into 'Companies' of around 300 men led by a Captain. Overall command, of course, was ultimately a Primarch. 'Command Squads', as they appear in Codex Space Marines did not really exist, and individual specialists were attached as needed to individual squads. Command Squads were usually some form of 'Honour Guard' and merely consisted of close-combat vets.

As for other stuff, I'd definitely recommend reading the first thread Bigred has provided the link for. Very informative

Puffin Magician
26-04-2006, 22:29
This (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19361) might prove helpful to your efforts.

Brother Othorio
26-04-2006, 22:38
As regarding armour marks -

Anything up to Mk8 in service, although Mk7 would have been very rare. Mks 4, 5 and 6 were common as these were cheaper to produce in the cash-strapped Great Crusade. Studded shoulder pads and other armour pieces were also common, although they were never utilised on the left hand side of the body, always the right, as they were cheaper, but offered less protection.


:wtf: wow.. that paragraphs more full of holes than a block of swiss cheese on an assault cannon testing range..

Mk2: (Crusade) standard issue during the Great Crusade
Mk3: (Iron) clumsy, awkward uparmoured Mk2 variant used only for boarding actions, tunnel fighting and frontal assaults, never intended to replace Mk2
Mk4: (Maximus) in the process of replaceing Mk2 & 3 at the outbreak of the Horus Heresy
Mk5: (Heresy) stopgap armour introduced during the Heresy to replaced Mk2-4 suits
Mk6: (Corvus) replacement for Mk5, went into service just prior to the Siege of Terra
Mk7: (Eagle) replacement for Mk5/6, some prototypes saw use during the Siege of Terra, production didnt start for several months afterwards
Mk8: (Errant) invented some time in m41 by the Mentor Legion chapter..

(note the IA art totally ignores the above, tho the earlier Horus Heresy artbooks try to stick to it ~ as does Horus Rising apparently)

also the studs DID go on the left, since they were intended to REINFORCE the armour (tho the IA art doest stick them everywhere..)



Melta weaponry was on the experimental stage, so there for wasn't used at all. Multi-Meltas seemingly werent issued to infantry until after the Heresy, but there has never been any version of the HH that had regular Meltaguns as post-heresy

Inquisitor lorr
26-04-2006, 22:50
Okay everyone this is going great thanks-i have implemented most of the changes.Now i am wondering with all this info i am geting about the armour types,which armour type would be the best to go for if i was to do an army-just for the majority-MK4??

squigsnok
26-04-2006, 23:06
Well it depends on which of the 3 "heresy" kinda eras you're going for.


1) If its a fair way pre the heresy your goin for its mk 2/3 you want, depending on the role you're goin for. mk3 was, as mentioned before, primarily made for boarding actions, tunnel fighting and so forth, where increased frontal armour was needed. The power servos can only take so much weight though, so more plates were added to the front, but the rear was weakened to even it out, IIRC


2) If it's just shy of the heresy/during the majority of it, Mk4 is becoming increasingly common (the Sons of Horus would be pretty much fully kitted out with it by the time of the Istvaan massacres, as they were the most important and successful legion, other legions would have varying ratios)

Mk 5's started making an appearence during the heresy, first in loyalist legions then the traitors as forgeworlds were overrun. But it was a stopgap, so wouldnt be a wide spread release.


3) If its siege of terra time then loyalist legions would be getting their shiney new mk 6's in the mail, but again it's turbulent times so not everyone would have them. Some of the traitors would have got their hands on them when mars was taken.

During the siege prototype mk7's were creeping in on both sides but these were very very much a rarity.

Fulgrim's Gimp
26-04-2006, 23:16
Vindicators were (IA2), Baal Predators likewise (IA2). The reason assault cannons are not used by Chaos in M41 is because of the maintenance as barrells have to be thrown away often and new ones built which is hard to do if your techmarine is now a tentacled gribbly.

Also.No imperial eagles on the chest plates unless you're doing Emperor's Children as they are the only legion who have them ore Heresy.

Inquis. Jaeger
27-04-2006, 02:57
:wtf: wow.. that paragraphs more full of holes than a block of swiss cheese on an assault cannon testing range..

Mk2: (Crusade) standard issue during the Great Crusade
Mk3: (Iron) clumsy, awkward uparmoured Mk2 variant used only for boarding actions, tunnel fighting and frontal assaults, never intended to replace Mk2
Mk4: (Maximus) in the process of replaceing Mk2 & 3 at the outbreak of the Horus Heresy
Mk5: (Heresy) stopgap armour introduced during the Heresy to replaced Mk2-4 suits
Mk6: (Corvus) replacement for Mk5, went into service just prior to the Siege of Terra
Mk7: (Eagle) replacement for Mk5/6, some prototypes saw use during the Siege of Terra, production didnt start for several months afterwards
Mk8: (Errant) invented some time in m41 by the Mentor Legion chapter..

(note the IA art totally ignores the above, tho the earlier Horus Heresy artbooks try to stick to it ~ as does Horus Rising apparently)

Sorry, but what? Admittedly, mine was a far more rough guide, but didn't you pretty much exactly restate what I just said in more precise terms?

I believe I said this -


Anything up to Mk8 in service, although Mk7 would have been very rare. Mks 4, 5 and 6 were common as these were cheaper to produce in the cash-strapped Great Crusade.

I said anything up to (as in, to this point, excluding any that follow hereafter) mark 8, which is exactly what you have just said. Your point was, essentially, that in modelling terms, any armour up to mk8 is fine for use in a heresy-era army. Which is exactly what I said.

Mk2 - some suits may still be around as treasured relics or honoured pieces of wargear from fallen heroes.
Mk3 - idiosyncracies within Legions mean some individual marines or even units may prefer to use items of armour from this mark system, so they're allowable.
Mk4 - as you say, was to become the standard and was being introduced just prior to the outbreak of the Heresy. Your claim it was to replace mk3 is actually incorrect. Mk3 was used in special combat situations and did not require general replacement throughout the Legions. Mk4 was intended to replace the Crusade pattern's general use.
Mk5 - this was a solution to supply problems during the Heresy and became widely used on both sides. Perfectly reasonable for me to suggest this.
Mk6 - This, in contradiction to your incorrect submission, was being used prior to the short period before the Siege of Terra, and was seen almost throughout the Heresy. I see no problem in my suggestion of it.
Mk7 - Prototypes in use.

My one failing that I can see, rather than the 'hole-filled' paragraph you suggest I wrote, is that in stating 'cash-strapped Great Crusade' I should have said 'cash-strapped Great Crusade and Heresy'. My apologies. It is what I intended to write. I assumed that any competent reader would assume that as I'm talking about a Heresy-era force, the Heresy period wouyld automatically be considered to part of the period I am talking about. It's simple logic.


also the studs DID go on the left, since they were intended to REINFORCE the armour (tho the IA art doest stick them everywhere..)

Who cares about the IA art? Please actually find a real source - such as the 2nd Ed Angels of Death codex, which specifically states that studded armour was a cheaper method of production made because of resource problems, which offered less protection. Therefore it was never used on the left-hand side, as it is assumed that a Marine will have that side towards the enemy as he fires his weapon with his right hand (yes, I know Marines are ambidextrous, but in common with modern weapons, bolters have the ejection port (again, I know bolters fire caseless ammunition, but this is one of GW's most broken rules. Besides, they've got to expel gas etc) on the right hand side, implying that they're intended to be fired with the right hand)


Multi-Meltas seemingly werent issued to infantry until after the Heresy, but there has never been any version of the HH that had regular Meltaguns as post-heresy

There's plenty of references in the HH artbooks for infantry to have MMs.

Ardathair
27-04-2006, 05:30
Posted by Inquis. Jaeger:
Anything up to Mk8 in service, although Mk7 would have been very rare. Mks 4, 5 and 6 were common as these were cheaper to produce in the cash-strapped Great Crusade. Studded shoulder pads and other armour pieces were also common, although they were never utilised on the left hand side of the body, always the right, as they were cheaper, but offered less protection.

Then why do all the old minis have the studs on the left shoulder and none on the right? (plastic beekies and metal)

GW Compilations, and the WD issue it was copied from, shows a picture of MK 5 armor with the left shoulder studded and the right shoulder not. Also states that the molecular bonding studs were for reinforcment. Does not specifically state that one shoulder was stronger than the other though.

bigred
27-04-2006, 06:57
The studs were used for field modifications by marines to strengthen portions of their powered armor. The left shoulder was the side facing the enemy for a right handed-shooter, and was thus the most commonly upgraded piece.

Several MK-5 suits are shown with extensive use of the studs on both shoulder pads and lower leg plates.

-bigred

Inquisitor lorr
27-04-2006, 08:11
Things that weren't around:

stormbolters
whirlwinds(debatable)
assault cannons(debatable-experimental)
infantry thunder hammers
predator annihalators
land raider crusader
vindictaors
crux terminatus
...


Legion/colour/badge

Ultramarines/blue/inverted omega

Dark angels/black/

Blood angels/red/

Space wolves/grey/

Thousand sons/red/

Death guard/white/

Lunar wolves/pearl white/wolves head on a crescent background
(sons of Horus/grey-green /eye of Horus)


Iron hands/black/

Raven guard/black/

Imperial Fists/yellow/

Emperors children/purple/

World eaters/white/

Word bearers/dark stone grey/burning book

Salamanders/green

Night lords/blue

White scars/white

Alpha legion/purple-blue

Iron warriors/metal




Legion notes
From Dakkagor:

Plasma weapons where more common, and terminator armour was not equipped with a crux terminatus (The crux is a campaign badge for the siege of the emperors palace, and each has a tiny shard of the emperors armour in it!)

The imperial army would have had access to landraiders (or atleast a few before they where requisitioned by the loyalist marine legions) and other wierder stuff. Overall command of any army would have fallen to a primarch, and each force would have mingled marines and imperial army forces freely.

From Inquis Jaeger

Anything up to Mk8 in service, although Mk7 would have been very rare. Mks 4, 5 and 6 were common as these were cheaper to produce in the cash-strapped Great Crusade. Studded shoulder pads and other armour pieces were also common, although they were never utilised on the left hand side of the body, always the right, as they were cheaper, but offered less protection.

Legion organisation varied greatly. Seemingly, the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus were organised into 'Companies' of around 300 men led by a Captain. Overall command, of course, was ultimately a Primarch. 'Command Squads', as they appear in Codex Space Marines did not really exist, and individual specialists were attached as needed to individual squads. Command Squads were usually some form of 'Honour Guard' and merely consisted of close-combat vets.

From Brother othorio

Mk2: (Crusade) standard issue during the Great Crusade
Mk3: (Iron) clumsy, awkward uparmoured Mk2 variant used only for boarding actions, tunnel fighting and frontal assaults, never intended to replace Mk2
Mk4: (Maximus) in the process of replaceing Mk2 & 3 at the outbreak of the Horus Heresy
Mk5: (Heresy) stopgap armour introduced during the Heresy to replaced Mk2-4 suits
Mk6: (Corvus) replacement for Mk5, went into service just prior to the Siege of Terra
Mk7: (Eagle) replacement for Mk5/6, some prototypes saw use during the Siege of Terra, production didnt start for several months afterwards
Mk8: (Errant) invented some time in m41 by the Mentor Legion chapter..

also the studs DID go on the left, since they were intended to REINFORCE the armour

No chest eagle,with the exception of the Emperors Children.

Modelling notes
-no chest eagle
-FW MK4 Red scorpions
-BT MK4 Torso and head
-Old Armour marks avaliable in metal
-Mk2 and Mk4 plastic helmets on BT sprue
-Mk5 torso on BT sprue
-IW head 4 is Mk2
-IW Head 2 is Mk3
-Mk6 legs on the Marine sprue
-Mk4 heads and torsos avaliable as Red Scorpions from FW
-Theres a mk4/5 I think on the Space Wolf sprue
-WHFB Chaos Warrior heads as Mk3 heads
__________________
.....

calicojack
27-04-2006, 12:50
Another quick note as regards variations of armour and when they were used: early on GW was even _more_ vague about up to Mark 6 armour: the tiny 5mm scale marines in the Space Marine game [heresy-period early Epic] are all wearing mark 6 "beaky" armour. You could likely get away with a heresy/pre-siege-of-Terra army in predominantly mark 6, with a spattering of early marks.

baphomael
27-04-2006, 13:13
"Thunderhammers only available as a dreadnaught CC weapon (very old fluff that, but explains why the traitor legion don't get them)"

Which, as something to note for modelling projects, explains why (back in 2nd Ed Chaos Codex - when dreadnoughts had chaos specific weapon options) the Chaos dreadnought could be armed with a dirty great hammer.


"bolters have the ejection port (again, I know bolters fire caseless ammunition, but this is one of GW's most broken rules. Besides, they've got to expel gas etc)"

Bolt weapons arn't caseless. They may be self propelled but they arnt caseless. The warhead itself has its own propellent which activates after the weapon is fired. Hence, the shell contains its own propellent to get the warhead out the barrel in the first place.



As for stormbolter/combi-bolters - judging by heresy-era artwork of Terminator suits it'd be safe to say that combi-bolters should remain firmly in the hands of Terminators but nobody else. Except Horus, of course.

Skippy
27-04-2006, 13:19
Storm Bolters were there. I know for a fact Horus had one in his power claw.

Subtext
27-04-2006, 13:33
Storm Bolters were there. I know for a fact Horus had one in his power claw.
No they had Combi-Bolters, the Stormbolter is the nw enhanced version of it.

squigsnok
27-04-2006, 13:56
Yes, Horus DID have one in his power claw. But they were in the experimental phase at the time. Being the second most powerful man in the galaxy, Horus had access to such nicetys. The mere mortals serving under him, however, would have been toting combi-bolters at the time.

Inquis. Jaeger
28-04-2006, 00:49
Dan Abnett has Horus use a Stormbolter independently of his power claw. Not sure how relevant this is. It was before he turned from the Loyalists, so not sure of this precedent. Probably just a prototype for the big boss.

Sorry about the studded armour thing. You're probably right.

As to modelling bits -

Old Armour marks avaliable in metal
Mk2 and Mk4 plastic helmets on BT sprue
Mk5 torso on BT sprue
IW head 4 is Mk2
IW Head 2 is Mk3
Obviously, Mk6 legs on the Marine sprue
Mk4 heads and torsos avaliable as Red Scorpions from FW
Theres a mk4/5 I think on the Space Wolf sprue
WHFB Chaos Warrior heads as Mk3 heads

Brother Othorio
28-04-2006, 02:07
My one failing that I can see, rather than the 'hole-filled' paragraph you suggest I wrote, is that in stating 'cash-strapped Great Crusade' I should have said 'cash-strapped Great Crusade and Heresy'. My apologies. It is what I intended to write. I assumed that any competent reader would assume that as I'm talking about a Heresy-era force Heresy period wouyld automatically be considered to part of the period I am talking about. It's simple logic.


uh-huh, the thread title reads: PRE Heresy not Mid-Heresy, the original posters post has the Lunar Wolves listed with the other legions, with Sons of Horus relegated to a in bracketted subnote: this would seem to indicate that unlike the majority of Pre-Heresy threads he was actually interested in the Great Crusade more than the Heresy, given those two facts i see no reason to have doubted that you meant Great Crusade when you said Great Crusade (yes it made your post seem incorrect, but i've seen plenty of incorrect posts regarding power armour)



Who cares about the IA art? Please actually find a real source - such as the 2nd Ed Angels of Death codex, which specifically states that studded armour was a cheaper method of production made because of resource problems, which offered less protection.

damn, all i have to support my theory is GW's definitive armour article from WD129.. (scroll down, its about 60% of the way down the page.. it can also be found in at least half a dozen other places on the web)

http://exodite.home.comcast.net/sub_space_marines.html

Arch-Traitor Horus
28-04-2006, 05:33
also the emperors children were the first legion to be allowed to bear the imperial eagle chest plates so they may have them if u do a Pre Heresy emperors children army

Inquisitor lorr
28-04-2006, 15:52
Hi again,thanks to everyone-just to clear something up i am concentrating mainly upon the pre heresy stuff as i want to do a "Good" pre heresy army.Anyway thanks for the armour Inquis Jaeger and Brother Othorio for that link .I and adding all this and will repost the list soon.Just another quick question-what MK are the old style knight helms for the BTs the ones like the company champions.And what MK are the armour on the BT sprue,the ones that have a small studded collar-like MK8 but smaller collars

Brother Othorio
28-04-2006, 18:08
the knight helms are an unknown quantity: they dont really match any of the specific designs for mk1-8 so can really be used for anything

the collared torsoes are debatable: some people regard any collared torso as a mk8, others argue that if it has mk7 unarmoured power cables (like the non-tabarded collared BT Torso, and like the Sgt Torso on the tactical accessory sprue) and a collar then it is simply a modified suit of mk7 (admitedly Mk8 was just an upgrade to Mk7 but it also seemingly sported more advanced electronics, and it has/d different legs that you dont get in any plastics box)

Inquisitor lorr
28-04-2006, 20:06
So do you think it would be a good idea to use any or not-because personally i think they look pre heresy(ish) even if they aren't ,although i do want it to be very accurate..hmmm:(

Brother Othorio
28-04-2006, 21:10
depending on the legion you could probably get away with the collared torso with the tabbard, but the other one would need a fair bit of drilling/fileing/greenstuffing for pre-heresy (would be usable as-is for a Great Scouring era Imperial Fist tho)

robertsjf
28-04-2006, 23:53
Per the Adeptus Titanicus/Horus Heresy epice game, whirlwinds and vindicators existed.

Inquisitor lorr
30-04-2006, 14:20
so i have made an MK5 tester model,so if i am painting in the horus' various legions it should be painted in gery for sons of horus because thats what they were when the MK5 armour was produced??right?

bigred
30-04-2006, 18:07
It's been said before, but there is really no need to go out of your way for the early marks of armor.

A pre-heresy legion will be composed of large numbers of Mark 2 Crusade suits with smaller numbers of the Mk 4 suits for elite troops/officers. The Mk3 was rare and used for specific circumstances (frontal assaults in tight quarters), and was probably not issued as standard equipment to troopers. The old non-sealed Mk1 was obsolete by the time the Emperor pacified Earth and spread out into the galaxy. The Mark 5+ suits were not around yet.

Just be sure to buy a lot of the backpack and arm/bolter/shoulderpad sprues.
For additional variation within the Mk 4 suit, get a couple of the Red Scorpion Veteran packs from Forgeworld.

-bigred


Just buy plenty of the bottom MK 2, 4 models from this page:

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.us?do=List_Models&code=301189&orignav=301117&ParentID=255418&GameNav=301115