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Pooky
14-03-2012, 01:29
Is taking a Space Marine special character in another chapters colours frowned upon by the WS/ gaming community?

In the past I have seen some varying opinions related to this query:

- Some people like to take 'counts as', for example, Space Wolves as pre-heresy World Eaters, so an entire army would be out of its 'traditional' colour scheme.
- 'Strict' fluff gamers hate the idea of a, say, Calgar model running with a Salamenders army and counting as a random hero. Simplistically, these people believe that an Ultramarines special character can ONLY be in an Ultramarines army.
- And others don't really care so long as you mentioned at the start of the game who is who and that the army is WYSIWYG

In the previous Space Marine codex I believe it mentioned it was fine to have the special characters in other 'vanilla' Space Marine armies since they would have their own heros (or something like that). But I was flicking through the current codex and can not find anything like that any more.

The query comes up because I was wondering if taking Vulcan would be suitable for an Imperial Fists army.

Eldoriath
14-03-2012, 01:43
I'm all good and fine with whatever you do as long as you say who is what and so on =)

But I would inwardly frown upon if you played your clearly SWs with the BA rules or vice versa for example, and a bit miffed about playing WE with the SW codex, though not as much.

Basically it's one thing choosing freely what codex to play with when using home-made stuff, but when using an existing chapter/legion I'd prefer if you use the "correct" codex for them. Save confusion all around imo.

Leftenant Gashrog
14-03-2012, 01:45
In the previous Space Marine codex I believe it mentioned it was fine to have the special characters in other 'vanilla' Space Marine armies since they would have their own heros (or something like that). But I was flicking through the current codex and can not find anything like that any more.


In the current codex its on the first page of the Army list section - page 127 - in the box listed "Ultramarines and other chapters"

Bubble Ghost
14-03-2012, 01:59
Seems a bit sad to me that anyone wants to do that, but no one can say you aren't allowed to do it. Strangely enough, personally, it bugs me more if people using SCs in the "wrong" chapter DO use the official model. I'd much rather people had the courage of their convictions and made their own model to use with the SC's rules, rather than buying a Marneus Calgar and painting him red, because that somehow comes across as very guarded and defensive, as though the player is aware that they're only using the SC for gaming advantage and is trying to 'buy' the right to do so. That's when you know someone's using the SC for the wrong reason.

DietDolphin
14-03-2012, 02:00
I'm all good and fine with whatever you do as long as you say who is what and so on =)

But I would inwardly frown upon if you played your clearly SWs with the BA rules or vice versa for example, and a bit miffed about playing WE with the SW codex, though not as much.

Basically it's one thing choosing freely what codex to play with when using home-made stuff, but when using an existing chapter/legion I'd prefer if you use the "correct" codex for them. Save confusion all around imo.

I agree with this completely.:) I am absolutely fine with making your own character and using fitting rules, same with home made chapters. But as Eldoriath said, I not too keen on the idea of using a chapter/legion with it's own rules being used as another. I just comes across as trying to gain some kind of advantage.

In saying this I'll still play someone as long as it isn't too hard figuring out whats what. It just becomes a problem when I spend more time trying to remember someones count-as than actually playing and having fun.

Yodhrin
14-03-2012, 02:11
No problem whatsoever here, but then I've always viewed the name and background of an entry in a codex to be distinct from the statline, and the names of equipment as being distinct from their effects. It's always a bit annoying to find someone who's just being beardy for beardy's sake, but I'd rather endure that than be forced to assemble and paint my miniatures the same way as everyone else, as some who oppose Counts As seem to want.

40K isn't Chess, stop getting your tournament all over my narrative wargaming :p

Beppo1234
14-03-2012, 02:14
as long as it's all from the same book, I've got no problem. I have more issues with counts as armies than this.

caciti
14-03-2012, 02:22
I feel people should play whatever they want. I personally really love the space wolf fluff and stories however my playstyle does not fit with them. I really love the DOA of Blood Angels so I've combined marine sprues and wolf sprues and painted them space wolf colors except for the back packs which are a red. The army is wysiwyg they just look wolfy this is because I made a story about them and how there a wolf great company that's been on long campaigns with the ba saw the value of DOA warfare. That's just a small synopsis.

At the end of the day I'll play my dudes how I want I like dropping in, I like the wolf stories much more than any other stories. Sure Russ preferred to fight with his feet on the ground but there's always an exception. And really if someone won't play me there not worth the game anyways so no loss to me.

Pooky
14-03-2012, 02:55
But I would inwardly frown upon if you played your clearly SWs with the BA rules or vice versa for example, and a bit miffed about playing WE with the SW codex, though not as much.

This person wanted to have a strong close combat army and they believed the CSM could not offer something strong enough.

Freman Bloodglaive
14-03-2012, 06:55
The rules in the Space Marine Codex say you should use special character models and convert/paint them to match your variation of the Space Marines.

It's no problem.

Oppressor
14-03-2012, 07:13
If you don't want to paint your army as one of these famous Chapters, but rather want to create your own heroes of the Imperium, the examples given in this book should prove a great cource of inspiration.

I would simply pull out my codex and read that passage to anyone that has a problem.

spaint2k
14-03-2012, 08:25
Seems a bit sad to me that anyone wants to do that, but no one can say you aren't allowed to do it. Strangely enough, personally, it bugs me more if people using SCs in the "wrong" chapter DO use the official model. I'd much rather people had the courage of their convictions and made their own model to use with the SC's rules, rather than buying a Marneus Calgar and painting him red, because that somehow comes across as very guarded and defensive, as though the player is aware that they're only using the SC for gaming advantage and is trying to 'buy' the right to do so. That's when you know someone's using the SC for the wrong reason.

Or maybe they like the model and want to run it in their army, kinda like how I've bought Telion and removed his Ultramarine markings (not painted yet though).

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-03-2012, 08:27
Meh, go ahead. As long as you are using the same rule set for everything and tell me before the game it doesn't really matter. Special characters are no different from any other entry in the codex so knock your self out and do what you like with your army. I don't understand this "right/wrong" reason to field them, especially these days where GW makes them integral to the lists. If you want to use them, use them. Despite the name, special characters are really not that special.

insectum7
14-03-2012, 17:13
Seems a bit sad to me that anyone wants to do that, but no one can say you aren't allowed to do it. Strangely enough, personally, it bugs me more if people using SCs in the "wrong" chapter DO use the official model. I'd much rather people had the courage of their convictions and made their own model to use with the SC's rules, rather than buying a Marneus Calgar and painting him red, because that somehow comes across as very guarded and defensive, as though the player is aware that they're only using the SC for gaming advantage and is trying to 'buy' the right to do so. That's when you know someone's using the SC for the wrong reason.

I feel the same way actually. So much so that my custom Chapter has a custom model for Pedro Kantor. :)

I was planning to do a custom Sicarius too. I may have to wait until the new edition though. (Though blade and Plasma Pistol aren't really a bad thing to do anyways)

Gargantuan
14-03-2012, 17:27
You can do whatever you want with your army (except pony stuff) and I'll play against you.

Bubble Ghost
14-03-2012, 17:48
Or maybe they like the model and want to run it in their army, kinda like how I've bought Telion and removed his Ultramarine markings (not painted yet though).

Using a model because you like it is fine, obviously, but you don't need to use the rules as well to do that.

Chem-Dog
14-03-2012, 18:26
It doesn't bother me one way or t'other to be honest.
Usual caveats of transparency and non-confusing counting as apply, but rock on otherwise.

That said it doesn't mean I won't think you're a Beardmonger if your Grey Viking Marines that count as Blood Angels suddenly have a Dreadknight joining them. I like armies that have a bit more thought put into them, as a rule of thumb, a willingness to abandon units in a Codex that don't fit in your force's themes is usually a good indicator of where your opponent's theme is really seated, Khorne/World Eater themed army as Blood Angels? Fantastic, just don't expect me to be all that impressed when you fly in a couple of Storm Ravens each carrying a Librarian Dread.

MajorWesJanson
14-03-2012, 20:12
I pull off most the markings from the models so I can run them in my custom chapter. At least the major icons. Part of my fluff is that they scavenge and salvage absolutely everything they can, so they have a lot of gear that used to belong to other chapters, just repainted and added to their armory.

Lord Damocles
14-03-2012, 20:34
I have no problems with Chapter-swapping characters generally (although seeing something other than Vulcan/Lysander/Pedro on tour would be a pleasant change...)

I have Blood Angel versions of Seth and Belial.


I'm not keen on using the stock models, just painted in different colours, though. Telion with the Ultramarine symbols removed is fine, since now he's justs a fairly generic scout, but a straight up Vulcan just painted blue makes no sense from a background perspective, and does nothing for me personally.

Captain Collius
14-03-2012, 21:39
so you al are saying when i take shrike for my DA no one would have a problem and renamed him Chapter Master Ungues of the 8th company

Droma
14-03-2012, 21:59
so you al are saying when i take shrike for my DA no one would have a problem and renamed him Chapter Master Ungues of the 8th company If by taking shrike you just mean using his model to represent a jump pack captain with claws then yeah no problem. If your using shrike rules and DA codex rules I believe a thumping would be in order :P

Pooky
14-03-2012, 23:27
I'm gladdens my cynical gaming spirit to see people are generally accepting of using Space Marine special characters as part of other chapters.

To represent Vulcan in the Imperial Fist army I was going to model him with a Relic Blade and a Power Fist with Flamer attachment. Most likely converting the Space Marine Captain Lightning Claw (of which you only get 1 is beyond me!) by trimming off the claws and attaching nozzles coming out of the knuckles to represent the flamer. Or maybe I would give him a very converted combi/ hand flamer.

AndrewGPaul
14-03-2012, 23:40
so you al are saying when i take shrike for my DA no one would have a problem and renamed him Chapter Master Ungues of the 8th company

If you mean using the rules for Kayvan Shrike in an army chosen from Codex: Dark Angels, then no; no-one has said that and you've misunderstood - whether it was deliberate or not, I can't tell.

However, if someone wanted to use an army chosen from Codex: Space Marines led by Shrike to represent your "Chapter Master Ungues" and his 8th Company, then there's no issues with that that I can see.

Szalik
14-03-2012, 23:43
In my opinion it is perfectly ok to use specials in other chapters from the same book. All in all it is stated in the codex that we may do it. The only thing I'd do is to remove specific chapter markings or redo them in such a way that they fit your chapter. Making your own miniature to represent a special character is even more fun. I've done both in my chapter. I've done my Sicarius count as giving him back, legs from an AOBR captain, P pistol hand and backpack from a chaos seargant, head and torso from SW Pack and a sword from a Ravenwing battleforce.

emcee temper
14-03-2012, 23:44
If by taking shrike you just mean using his model to represent a jump pack captain with claws then yeah no problem. If your using shrike rules and DA codex rules I believe a thumping would be in order :P

This. Mixing the Codex's is a BIG no no for me... That defeats the point of a codex being a codex for a specific army.

On the topic of having a character for any chapter. I think its fine, I'd have no problem playing against it. If its a custom made model or scratchbuilt special for another chapter, then I'd like to know that it actually counts as that model, and if I'm told beforehand that's fine by me :)

On the modelling aspect of it, I personally think it's a nice challenge to create a special character for your army that is visually unique. As long as the weapons and armour and stuff matches the chapter, but is still relevant to the codex entry, I'd say go ahead and play with it! You spent the time making it yours and unique, just use it :P

Wishing
14-03-2012, 23:54
From what I can tell, most of the community couldn't care less who your special characters are supposed to be, as long as your army is legal. So Imperial Fists Vulcan is fine, as he is just legal character A in legal army A, names are irrelevant. As long as you are not breaking any rules, it's fine.

There are some people who do think that the identity that goes with a model's rules can't just be changed around at will without the game suffering as a result, but these people are generally a minority.

carlisimo
15-03-2012, 00:26
I also think it’s okay within books. And I’m totally okay with using the special character’s model in another color, or as a non-special character. We Eldar players used to do the latter all the time, back when the only farseer models were Eldrad Ulthran, and Mr. Squidhead. I did shorten Eldrad’s crest and made his staff less impressive, but that’s just me.

Rules should be kept within one book, but I’m fine with, say, using Dante’s model in a vanilla list, using rules that exist in the vanilla codex. I’d be a little annoyed at using a Dreadknight model as a Dreadnought (though I wouldn’t complain out loud), but power armor is power armor.

AlphariusOmegon20
15-03-2012, 01:00
Is taking a Space Marine special character in another chapters colours frowned upon by the WS/ gaming community?

In the past I have seen some varying opinions related to this query:

- Some people like to take 'counts as', for example, Space Wolves as pre-heresy World Eaters, so an entire army would be out of its 'traditional' colour scheme.
- 'Strict' fluff gamers hate the idea of a, say, Calgar model running with a Salamenders army and counting as a random hero. Simplistically, these people believe that an Ultramarines special character can ONLY be in an Ultramarines army.
- And others don't really care so long as you mentioned at the start of the game who is who and that the army is WYSIWYG

In the previous Space Marine codex I believe it mentioned it was fine to have the special characters in other 'vanilla' Space Marine armies since they would have their own heros (or something like that). But I was flicking through the current codex and can not find anything like that any more.

The query comes up because I was wondering if taking Vulcan would be suitable for an Imperial Fists army.

Your first example doesn't bother me that much, as sometimes that makes sense to frame the correct narrative for your DIY army.

The second example irritates me all to hell. That is attributed to being a Salamander player and realizing that in the course since 40 K was created, the Sallies have only had 2 SC's, compared to the 8 or 9 different ones that the Smurfs have had in the same time frame, yet I regularly see Smurf players using Vulkan. Yes, Lysander COULD fit the Sallie ideal, but he doesn't because HE'S NOT A SALAMANDER.

My belief is if you want to use Vulkan, then play Salamanders, instead of Ultramarines!

Getz
15-03-2012, 01:03
As I rule I'll play anything that's legal - no problem at all.

However if you're asking my opinion, I dislike seeing "chapter specific" characters appear in the colours of other cannon chapters. For example, if you want to play Ultramarines then stick to the ultramarine characters, I don't like seeing an Ultramarine army fielding Vulcan and Pedro Cantor.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'd be quite happy to see Vulcan and Pedro Cantor on the field together, but I'd prefer to see them as part of a homebrew chapter with it's own colour scheme and feel.

FashaTheDog
15-03-2012, 03:00
I personally am very much against using unique characters outside of their respective fluff armies. I do have a few exceptions, though. I turn my Guard list to a Fallen lead one by making Straken count as the Fallen and use my Cypher model (only time he ever gets to play outside of special games anyway). The Parasite often stands in for my Patriarch in my Genestealer list as I6 is the main goal and I figure that when it says "jump infantry," he is really jumping and I use the new Space Hulk Broodlord for it. On a rare occasion Marbo joins my Syrinx 2112th as the Squat Adventurer since his rules fit how I envision the little fellow who has a fluff back story of having something of a Batman-esque utility belt (or like Jurgen's pouches). I also make one exception on a codex basis; Dark Angels. From time to time I use Codex Ultramarines so I can use a bunch of models that are illegal in the Dark Angels' book, like my Standard Bearer who has a power claw or my Captain in Terminator armor with the auxiliary grenade launcher, but that is fairly uncommon. Past that, the only time I use unique characters is in their fluff approved army. My Space Wolves are from Grimnar's Great Company, so the other Wolf Lord models are not allowed, the only Codex Marine special characters are one of the three Cullns, be it Sergeant, Commander, or Lord High Commander, and my Chaos Marines can take Kharn since they're World Eaters.

That is a standard I only hold myself to. My opponent is free to do whatever they please, if they like the Papa Smurf mini, paint him as the below, and run him as Raglac Suenram, Chapter Master of the Semordnilap Marines, that's great. Or call Pedro Kantor the newest Ultramarine recruit because he finally got his secret wish granted by Ward-on-High, that's fine too. Mix and match the Guard characters, aiming to run them all but one (since you'd need 3 HQ) in a single list? That's super-duper. Doesn't matter if they convert their models either, just so long as they play so they enjoy the game and whatever aspects of it they like is really all I care about.

135408

AndrewGPaul
15-03-2012, 09:29
Some characters - the Ultramarines tank commander and scout sergeant - are explicitly described as spending a lot of time seconded to other Chapters, aren't they? From that point of view, I wouldn't have a problem with those two being used in a Salamanders, White Scars, etc army, still painted in Ultramarines blue.

Apart from that, feel free to mix and match, but I'd prefer a bit more effort than painting Marneus Calgar green, yellow or pink. At least shave off the Ultramarines icons.

Lothlanathorian
15-03-2012, 09:49
When I got back into 40K, my original plan was to use Codex: [Ultra]Marines to make a DIY chapter and use the generic Chapter Master entry in the codex to make my own custom Chapter Master and to use Pedro Kantor as the captain of my first company. The reasoning being because he allowed Sternguard to count as scoring for rules purposes and that was the only reason I wanted to use any SC at all. I had every intention of converting my model up to fit with however I would decide my Chapter would look. I've since abandoned this idea, but, still want to do the conversion because converting is the entire reason I am in this hobby.

So, if you converted a model to represent the SC you are using, painted him up in the Chapter's colors you are using and had a fluffy reason for who he was and all that, then, no, I would not be opposed to this. Now, if you had the Shrike model and the Vulkan model and painted them both up in Ultramarine colors then I probably wouldn't care much for playing you, no. Unless, of course, you are 11 years old, new to the hobby, paint like crap and get excited about EVERYTHING. Then you've got an excuse. And I've still got time to save you from being 'that guy'.

DietDolphin
15-03-2012, 10:05
... use Pedro Kantor as the captain of my first company. The reasoning being because he allowed Sternguard to count as scoring for rules purposes and that was the only reason I wanted to use any SC at all.

This is the main reason anyone takes a SC outside their actual chapter. I think they (GW) should continue with the same structure as the captain-on-a-bike. Allowing a generic hero to have army wide effects and SC to have their own wargear and at best have unique effects on the squad their with.

Lothlanathorian
15-03-2012, 10:09
This is the main reason anyone takes a SC outside their actual chapter. I think they (GW) should continue with the same structure as the captain-on-a-bike. Allowing a generic hero to have army wide effects and SC to have their own wargear and at best have unique effects on the squad their with.

That, sir, I can agree with. I'm not a tourney style gamer and, if I were to begin playing regularly again (haven't in a while, it's all collecting/converting/painting for me), it would only be with a select group of friends and we'd end up just making up our own special characters, anyway, or fielding whatever we felt like because why the hell not? At the end of the day, the most important thing is it's a game and games are meant to be fun. Are you having fun the way you play? Then you are doing it right.