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View Full Version : How does thou wound me, Phil Kelly? Let me count the ways...



Battleworthy Arts
14-03-2012, 17:28
In What's New Today, Phil talks about his beloved Tyranids and how he uses them in Apocalypse.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/wnt/blog.jsp?pid=1700100-gws

He mentions his Endless Swarm formation. Just how does that work, Mr. Kelly? Because it mentions the Without Number rule... where does that rule appear? Where would a recent tyranid player be able to reference that rule?

He also mentions Nancy, his beloved bio-titan. He mentions specifics about its terrifying armament, but couldn't mention anything about its defenses... what kind of invulnerable save do you use, Mr. Kelly? It says it has the psychic power Warp Field... which no longer exists, except as a Special Rule (not a psychic power) for Zoanthropes. So what do you roll when Nancy gets hit by a lascannon? Nothing, since the power doesn't exist? A 3+, since the zoanthrope does? A 5++, since that's what it originally was?... and how would someone new know that?

What a missed opportunity for some long-needed clarifications... almost cruel, sir. Almost... cruel.

de Selby
14-03-2012, 17:48
Tee hee. You'e been spoiled by the two new kits. It's tyranids, we're supposed to guess the rules and buy our models from third party manufacturers.

Ozendorph
14-03-2012, 17:50
fwiw we always give the bio-titans a 5++ in our games. We played once with the 3++...you'd have to double that thing's point cost for me to go through that again lol

Hokiecow
14-03-2012, 18:09
I really hope Apocalypse gets an update AND a revision (like what FW did to IA:A).

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

Ozendorph
14-03-2012, 19:08
I really hope Apocalypse gets an update AND a revision (like what FW did to IA:A).

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

Word, Apoc needs a new book. Still laden with whimsy and dev-team humor, preferably, but perhaps with a bit more attention paid to rules ;)

MajorWesJanson
14-03-2012, 20:16
Or just add the rules in the back of the main rules for superheavies, gargantuans, and fliers, then make apoc books consisting only of stratagems and data sheets/formations.

Grimtuff
14-03-2012, 20:36
Copy and paste strikes again. I seem to recall this article being on the old GW site a few years ago.... :p

DietDolphin
15-03-2012, 00:46
I like his Tyranids colour scheme.

Nubl0
15-03-2012, 01:27
My group plays it so the hirotitan has the 3++. Its kinda cool to watch it smash through stuff and makes up for some nid units "lacking".

Thrax
15-03-2012, 01:33
Here's how Phil Kelly wounds me...by low-balling the cost of certain units in the codices he's written, thus causing imbalance. Ork shoota boyz, grey hunters and long fangs come to mind.

wyvirn
15-03-2012, 02:37
*Gasp* Someone straying from the written rules in Apocalypse! Someone grab the torches and pitchforks!


If he has wounded me, it would be for the under costed Dark Elf codex.

ReveredChaplainDrake
15-03-2012, 06:44
What I find funny / sad is that Cruddace didn't do anything for the new models. Tyranids are his baby now, so why doesn't he man up and own them already? Instead they call up Kelly, the former Tyranid overfiend, whose Tyranid models are so old that their paint scheme was featured in the deluxe 5th edition BRB. Meanwhile, I wonder if Cruddace even has a Tyranid army.

Tyranids have been getting the shaft all edition long. I hope there's some dignity for them in the future, but as the Blood Ravens would say, hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

Lothlanathorian
15-03-2012, 10:02
but as the Blood Ravens would say, hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.

That's from a page of the 3rd Edition BBB, don't taint it's hallowed words by profanely attributing it to the Blood Ravens. ;)



Also, at least they made the rest of the models for the Tyranids. I mean, that was nice of them, right?

Sildani
15-03-2012, 15:25
And from what I understand, Cruddace didn't WANT to do Tyranids, but he HAD to. Perhaps it was a deal he had to make so that he'd be given the chance to work on his pet project, which was IG.

kasrkinsquad
15-03-2012, 15:37
I doubt it Sildani. If he didn't want to do Tyranids then it probably was that he was the odd man out. Phil must have been working on Dark Eldar and Mat must have been doing Blood Angels so he was the only one left to do Tyranids.

It just goes to show how much the author has to be into the army to make a good product out of it. It almost feels like the only writers they have are Mat, Robin, and Phil.

sycopat
15-03-2012, 15:43
What I find funny / sad is that Cruddace didn't do anything for the new models. Tyranids are his baby now, so why doesn't he man up and own them already? Instead they call up Kelly, the former Tyranid overfiend, whose Tyranid models are so old that their paint scheme was featured in the deluxe 5th edition BRB. Meanwhile, I wonder if Cruddace even has a Tyranid army.

Tyranids have been getting the shaft all edition long. I hope there's some dignity for them in the future, but as the Blood Ravens would say, hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.


I noticed this in the latest white dwarf actually. In the tactics feature, Cruddace does a bit of a blurb for the new tyranid models describing how awesome they are then sneakily passes the buck to some guy who actually has a tyranid army to do a run through an army list and how to use it.

What took the biscuit for me was the few paragraphs the tyranid player wrote contained way more useful information than the two pages cruddace wrote. It really makes it look like he just doesn't care.

Gen.Steiner
15-03-2012, 18:59
Cruddace probably doesn't. I'll have to ask the chap at my club who knows him. I'll report back. :)

wyvirn
15-03-2012, 19:02
How did this get from Kelly to Cruddance? Oh yeah, tyranid players wanting every opportunity to complain.

Lothlanathorian
15-03-2012, 19:12
How did this get from Kelly to Cruddance? Oh yeah, tyranid players wanting every opportunity to complain.

Would you prefer the Chaos players?

wyvirn
15-03-2012, 19:17
Would you prefer the Chaos players?

It's a bit sad that those two armies are the 2 I play...

Lothlanathorian
15-03-2012, 19:26
Perhaps you are a fan of disenfranchised underdogs? :p

Cheexsta
15-03-2012, 22:56
How did this get from Kelly to Cruddance? Oh yeah, tyranid players wanting every opportunity to complain.
It's a forum (moreover, it's Warseer :D), the whole point is to voice opinions.

Twisted Ferret
16-03-2012, 06:18
Would you prefer the Chaos players?
*pokes head in* Did someone mention the Chaos codex? Oh man, let me tell you about how badly we got shafted in that one. First, there's--

*door slams in face* :(

At least my Dark Eldar got a nice, new, shiny, good book. :)

Draconis
16-03-2012, 06:33
Let me top that off by saying my main armies are chaos and nids :) I sure know how to pick them don't I.

BrotherCaptainS
16-03-2012, 06:34
Just for a good laugh... My gaming club is running a month long tournament... well more like going on a month and a half. Anyway I really did not want to play in said tournament because, well My space wolves come first and i have not lost with them in my club for over 2 years. Then I was an avid deamonhunter player, mind you i said deamonhunter, not Grey knights and well I refuse to play them now against my friends because the don't lose either. So I though maybe my guard but evidently 3 tanks is just to mean and they don't want to play against that. Mind you I have lost with all of these armies at some point. So enter the nids, i love my nids and try to play them every now and again. I've won quire a few qith them but not as convincing as the other wins. Well the nids are in the championship round after 5 rounds of eating every army in their way. Including, nob biker orks, purifier grey knights, logan wing space wolves, vulkan space marines and all foot ig. Saturday morning the bugs face off against the blood angels for the overall championship and i ha e to say i believe i have the advantage. Through some nifty combinations and sly generalship i'm going to.pull this ourlt with NIDS. So, its not the book, its the general. everyone was laughing at the begining of each game only to end up getting tabled all but one game. I played dark eldar too, i just remembered, that was the one i didn't table. one raider got away.

Draconis
16-03-2012, 06:35
C'mon mate. How is it me and you have to keep bumping into each other? You stalking me?

BrotherCaptainS
16-03-2012, 06:55
just a nid stalking my prey... lol

Twisted Ferret
17-03-2012, 05:52
Let me top that off by saying my main armies are chaos and nids :) I sure know how to pick them don't I.
:D You poor bastard... I'm so sorry. :( Don't worry, though... my main army is Chaos (along with DE), and I have very high hopes for the next Chaos codex. I hope to Tzeentch it's Codex: Chaos Legions, so I can finally field the perfect Thousand Sons army I've always dreamed of. :chrome:

Born Again
17-03-2012, 09:35
Or just add the rules in the back of the main rules for superheavies, gargantuans, and fliers, then make apoc books consisting only of stratagems and data sheets/formations.

I agree, this is how it should be done. They give a (very brief) overview of the rules in the Imperial Armour books, if they just expanded it a bit to give a touch more detail, then made a book of stratagems, datasheets and new missions I think it would be much better, and integrate the actual rules with the main 40k book better.


That's from a page of the 3rd Edition BBB, don't taint it's hallowed words by profanely attributing it to the Blood Ravens. ;)


That's one of my favourite 40k quotes. Blood Ravens are not one of my favourite chapters.

Souleater
17-03-2012, 09:59
Still laden with whimsy and dev-team humor, preferably, but perhaps with a bit more attention paid to rules ;)

Kind of like some of the FAQs, then? :D

Lothlanathorian
17-03-2012, 10:21
That's one of my favourite 40k quotes. Blood Ravens are not one of my favourite chapters.

It's the best 40K quote :) I had an English teacher in high school who used to write up a quote of the day on the board. One day, she let me pick one (teacher's pet :p) and, well, you can guess what I wrote on the board :D

On topic: One book with all of the core rules would be fantastic. Then do things like City Fight or Jungle Fight or what have you with the way the rules are changed for playing in those types of games, etc.

Shamana
17-03-2012, 11:51
@ Lothlanathorian - she sounds awesome, I hope some of you had the decency to give her something suitably thematic before you graduated. Backpack-mounted braziers, for example ;) .

Anyway, back to the OP - perhaps Phil Kelly didn't talk about any rules because either a) the article was not supposed to feature any (so it's more of a promotional thing) or b) GW wants their writers to be mum on apocalypse rules? I'd like to think that perhaps they are working on something meant to clarify all those old rules that haven't kept up ... like how they "updated" the valkyrie/vulture gunships.

LordOfTheFuzz
18-03-2012, 01:02
It's a forum (moreover, it's Warseer :D), the whole point is to voice opinions.

Is that internet speak for Weeping, Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth?

Balerion
18-03-2012, 11:36
So, its not the book, its the general.
Agreed 100%, all the generals you faced sucked.

Hokiecow
18-03-2012, 12:48
That's a complement, right? Since Nids eat people and all.
Or are you saying these generals are great lovers and not fighter?

Draconis
18-03-2012, 15:24
Given the same skill level of two generals, no mistakes made, Nids will almost certainly lose in the current set of rules. Armor is their biggest weakness and that just happens to be the big thing right now. But give it time. The Hive Mind will adapt.

BrotherCaptainS
19-03-2012, 01:49
I just beat a meched up marine list, a few days ago. with preds, dreds, land raiders and a vindi/ tabled it in 6. the right outfkankers, the right guns and the right charges are all it takes. Also one of the top 100 players in the US plays Nids. He's ranked 75 right now.

Battleworthy Arts
19-03-2012, 02:18
@ Lothlanathorian - she sounds awesome, I hope some of you had the decency to give her something suitably thematic before you graduated. Backpack-mounted braziers, for example ;) .

Anyway, back to the OP - perhaps Phil Kelly didn't talk about any rules because either a) the article was not supposed to feature any (so it's more of a promotional thing) or b) GW wants their writers to be mum on apocalypse rules? I'd like to think that perhaps they are working on something meant to clarify all those old rules that haven't kept up ... like how they "updated" the valkyrie/vulture gunships.

He did get into specifics about the bio-titan's gun.

Born Again
19-03-2012, 03:48
Given the same skill level of two generals, no mistakes made, Nids will almost certainly lose in the current set of rules. Armor is their biggest weakness and that just happens to be the big thing right now. But give it time. The Hive Mind will adapt.

You can't account for things like that, given an massive variety of army compositions and the fact much of the game comes down to chance (dice rolls), you can't really say that evenly matched generals will almost certainly lose based purely on their choice of race.

wyvirn
19-03-2012, 04:05
You can't account for things like that, given an massive variety of army compositions and the fact much of the game comes down to chance (dice rolls), you can't really say that evenly matched generals will almost certainly lose based purely on their choice of race.

Unless, of course, your choice of race is squats :p

Draconis
19-03-2012, 04:31
An army full of marines with transports, razorbacks and missile launchers will in fact stomp a nid army if given a chance.

BrotherCaptainS
19-03-2012, 05:48
have to say.that i beg to differ. any army is perfectly capable of beating any other army. It's all down the general and how well they know their own army, how well they know their opponents army and knowing how to apply your force where it is needed. According to the internet, nids stand no chance against grey knights. I was among those people because i have a deamonhunter army, and have rocked my share of nid armies. However, using a nid army against a purifier knights army i ended up tabling said opponent in 5 turns. Army synergy has to be just right. i'm still fine tuning my army, but i even found a use for lictors. so it is totally the general.

KingDeath
19-03-2012, 11:22
have to say.that i beg to differ. any army is perfectly capable of beating any other army. It's all down the general and how well they know their own army, how well they know their opponents army and knowing how to apply your force where it is needed. According to the internet, nids stand no chance against grey knights. I was among those people because i have a deamonhunter army, and have rocked my share of nid armies. However, using a nid army against a purifier knights army i ended up tabling said opponent in 5 turns. Army synergy has to be just right. i'm still fine tuning my army, but i even found a use for lictors. so it is totally the general.

Sorry but this is nonsense. A weak army with a good general will usualy lose to a strong army with a good general.
Just because you can, in theory, outplay a bad opponent doesn't make the armies balanced.

BrotherCaptainS
19-03-2012, 16:11
The funny thing is that you assume everyone I play against is a bad general. Maybe its that I know how to synergize my army. know what to shoot, when to shoot, what to assault, where to assault, what the capabilities of the enemy armies are. I guarantee I could beat 90% of the people on here whom complain about this army does that to well, or that army is this to well. Most people can be beaten during deployment. 9 times out of 10 the better general will win.

Konovalev
19-03-2012, 16:23
The funny thing is that you assume everyone I play against is a bad general. Maybe its that I know how to synergize my army. know what to shoot, when to shoot, what to assault, where to assault, what the capabilities of the enemy armies are. I guarantee I could beat 90% of the people on here whom complain about this army does that to well, or that army is this to well. Most people can be beaten during deployment. 9 times out of 10 the better general will win.

Surely then if you played one of the recognized "power" armies, you would take top spot in national tournaments. So what's stopping you?

Draconis
19-03-2012, 17:01
Also, knowing what to shoot, when to shoot, what to assault and where to assault means almost nothing.

What to shoot: this is the only sound advice. Guns have range. Range gives you choices. So yes, you have the option of what to shoot.
When to shoot: Every unit, every round other than fleeting. That's not hard.
What to assault: You only have 12" (possible 24 for Hormies, possible 18 for flee) this does not give you that much range in determining what to assault. Also, no grenades)
Where to assault: See above.

Yes, I agree a good general will generally (no pun) beat a bad general. However, the army still plays a large role in the outcome. An army full of missiles, meltas, plasma, lascannons, force weapons, jaws, and transports will stomp a nid army. Mass high strength, cheap costed, low ap weapons that hit on 3+ will stomp a nid army.

Nidzilla.....yeah, couple turns.
Horde, this one might stand a small chance as a lascannon/melta is useless. However, frag grenades and bolters tear the army up. play to the mission and you just might win. Still doubtful as you'd have trouble with armor/transports
Hybrid. Same as above.

I know every marine codex by heart cept Dark Angels and Blood Angels. I play against them every two weeks for the last 8 years. I know IG by heart. Same story. And I play Nids. I know the codex inside and out. I've looked through hundreds of army lists. I'm a math Nazi, I look and compare. Compare and contrast. I take things out, I add things in. In Warcraft, I was what you call a theorycrafter. I crunched numbers and percentages. I've put every possible combination of nid units onto a virtual board in my head just to see how they work together. So I do happen to know what i'm talking about. The simple math of it says you are wrong. The only thing a Nid Player has a fair term on is the dice.

IcedCrow
19-03-2012, 17:01
To be fair, whenever anyone touts that they can do well with a weak build most people use the "then you must play against bad people" argument. The internet is infallable after all lol

I can't tell you how many times I've heard "but the internet says that that shouldn't have happened..." (replace Internet with "Warseer", "Bols", "Dakka" etc)

Charistoph
19-03-2012, 17:06
The funny thing is that you assume everyone I play against is a bad general. Maybe its that I know how to synergize my army. know what to shoot, when to shoot, what to assault, where to assault, what the capabilities of the enemy armies are. I guarantee I could beat 90% of the people on here whom complain about this army does that to well, or that army is this to well. Most people can be beaten during deployment. 9 times out of 10 the better general will win.

Having good rolls yourself and your opponent having bad rolls, can also make a huge difference in a battle. You can't discount luck so freely. That's one reason why blob armies are so dangerous, as they pack the odds in their favor.


To be fair, whenever anyone touts that they can do well with a weak build most people use the "then you must play against bad people" argument. The internet is infallable after all lol

I can't tell you how many times I've heard "but the internet says that that shouldn't have happened..." (replace Internet with "Warseer", "Bols", "Dakka" etc)

There's also a fact that some tournament builds can have a hard time against fluff/"bad" builds. Not for any lack of power, but because that power is focused on one thing, while the fluff/"bad" list requires a different approach to defeat it. Let's face it, an army dedicated to taking out an IG Parking Lot, or a BA Dreadnought Army from Hell, will have a harder time against Green Tide or IG Blob Patrol.

But then there are some that will suck against both.

Nurgling Chieftain
19-03-2012, 17:58
This amused me:135804

IcedCrow
19-03-2012, 18:38
There's also a fact that some tournament builds can have a hard time against fluff/"bad" builds. Not for any lack of power, but because that power is focused on one thing, while the fluff/"bad" list requires a different approach to defeat it. Let's face it, an army dedicated to taking out an IG Parking Lot, or a BA Dreadnought Army from Hell, will have a harder time against Green Tide or IG Blob Patrol.

But then there are some that will suck against both.

No doubt. I don't disagree. A lot of this game comes down to your army comp. Often you can look at two armies pairing off across a table and if you've played long enough know which army should win before the first turn begins.

It's just that whenever standard internet protocol on what is good is challenged, it is usually rebuked by someone claiming that that is rubbish that the only time that is true is if you are playing against bad opponents.

To be honest and fair, most of us are not elite. At best we are all average. Some of us are even poor at this game. Then there's the wildly random nature of dice to consider...

Charistoph
19-03-2012, 19:03
No doubt. I don't disagree. A lot of this game comes down to your army comp. Often you can look at two armies pairing off across a table and if you've played long enough know which army should win before the first turn begins.

It's just that whenever standard internet protocol on what is good is challenged, it is usually rebuked by someone claiming that that is rubbish that the only time that is true is if you are playing against bad opponents.

To be honest and fair, most of us are not elite. At best we are all average. Some of us are even poor at this game. Then there's the wildly random nature of dice to consider...

I am (and was) totally agreeing with you on it. A lot of it is the list, but discounting the player (and the dice) is utterly arrogant and foolish.

Draconis
19-03-2012, 19:29
This amused me:135804

Nice. I giggled.

Draconis
19-03-2012, 19:31
For me, it's simple math. I know that a Rhino is tougher than a Tervigon. Sure the Rhino can be destroyed in 1 hit, but it's not likely. More likely the Tervigon will be killed in 9 Missiles whereas it would take 9 or more on average to take out a Rhino. And the rhino is doing its job. The same follows through with the rest of the army. Math is the ultimate equalizer. Luck is the balance to math.

Nurgling Chieftain
19-03-2012, 19:52
It's just that whenever standard internet protocol on what is good is challenged, it is usually rebuked by someone claiming that that is rubbish that the only time that is true is if you are playing against bad opponents.More like, whenever somebody posts some terrible tactics that really aren't competitive, and that's pointed out to them, they always defend their decisions by claiming that they beat the tar out of their kid brother on a regular basis. It's impossible to take that kind of argument seriously. Facts and figures can break my biases, but anecdotes will never impress me.

Draconis
19-03-2012, 20:11
The reason internet standards are considered standard is because you have a group of hundreds or thousands of players testing. If you come along and say that the collective thoughts are junk, thats you versus all them. Statistics will show that they are most likely right.

wyvirn
19-03-2012, 21:36
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum
I refuse to accept conclusions based solely on anecdote as facts. I will accept them as assumptions, such as gauging whether I will play against marines in a tournament, but not take them as hard and fast.
If you were to make some sort of scientific survey that standardized the lists of both players, the skill level of both, and a bunch of other factors that took care of the non-mathhmmerable factors such as deployment and terrain, I would be glad to discuss the findings and numerical statistics. I would call those numbers facts. The only numbers I see now are from tournaments and they shows that SW GK and IG have a large chance of winning at 2500 points.
Now I'm not arguing that nid's should be #1, but I feel that they aren't as horrible as the internet makes them out to be.

IcedCrow
19-03-2012, 23:22
The reason internet standards are considered standard is because you have a group of hundreds or thousands of players testing. If you come along and say that the collective thoughts are junk, thats you versus all them. Statistics will show that they are most likely right.

Not really. Most internet standards come from a handful of dudes on BOLS etc... who win the big tournaments and then everyone clones their list.

Player skill does make a part in it too yes. I don't want anyone to think I think that player skill has nothing to do with winning/losing. It's just that I've played long enough to have heard this 1000x and I've seen 1000x the big netlists go down in flames to something that shouldn't beat it according to the intrawebz.

Draconis
19-03-2012, 23:46
How about every army except Cron's released since Nids are purely designed to crush them. Maybe not intentional, but they do. SW are obvious. And they may have been intentional.

SW: Missile Spam. Razorback spam. Cheap/free plasma/meltas. Sagas designed to kill MC. Lots of armor. Jaws. Grenades. Force weapons. Better Psykers. Better Psyker defense.
DE: Mass poison. Stuff to remove whole models. Lots of fast transports. Grenades.
GK: Yeah, this lines a joke...moving on.

IcedCrow
19-03-2012, 23:52
Definitely, the nid codex is horrible in the external balance department. It is the equivalent of playing on hard. Whether or not one agrees that there should be armies out there that are harder to effectively use is another debate though but yeah there are codexes / armylists out there that are just inherently better than the others (you can typically identify the armies that are easier to use by their prevalence in competitive environments; the easier it is to play the more of said army you will encounter).

BrotherCaptainS
20-03-2012, 01:33
To be honest and fair, most of us are not elite. At best we are all average. Some of us are even poor at this game. Then there's the wildly random nature of dice to consider...

Fair enough maybe this is why I am good with nids. I know a lot of people don't get to the big tournaments and such, but if you go here
http://www.rankingshq.com/rankings/default.aspx?GameSystemId=3&RegionId=13 I can be found in better than the top 10% of ranked players in this country, the United States. So maybe I am an elite player and just know how to build and play a sweet list... just sayin.

Draconis
20-03-2012, 02:56
So why don't I see any Daemons on that list? and what part of Ohio? What army are you ranked with? I show the best general to be ranked 25th with nids.

IcedCrow
20-03-2012, 03:47
Fair enough maybe this is why I am good with nids. I know a lot of people don't get to the big tournaments and such, but if you go here
http://www.rankingshq.com/rankings/default.aspx?GameSystemId=3&RegionId=13 I can be found in better than the top 10% of ranked players in this country, the United States. So maybe I am an elite player and just know how to build and play a sweet list... just sayin.

Maybe. Nothing wrong with that. All the better if you are. I much rather play someone who is good with a ***** army than someone using a BOLS-clone and crutching their way to the top through overbearing the already broken math in the game.

Nurgling Chieftain
20-03-2012, 16:36
Actually I quite enjoy crushing the dreams of newbies who think that showing up with a list they got off the internet is all they need to win. :evilgrin:

BrotherCaptainS
20-03-2012, 17:28
So why don't I see any Daemons on that list? and what part of Ohio? What army are you ranked with? I show the best general to be ranked 25th with nids.

Northwest Ohio. You don't see deamons because it does not list your army if you didn't actually register that army for said tournament. Like this year for adepticon I don't know exactly what I want to play so i chose the option, undecided, for the army type. I split time with my wolves, knights and nids. Although, not much on knights right now and they were deamonhunters last time I used them in a major tournament. So Wolves and nids are pretty much 50/50 for me now. Anyway, the system just ranks your scores at said tournaments. The point is that I am a good player and it is the general whom makes the biggest difference.

Hokiecow
20-03-2012, 17:44
Not trying to knock on your skills BrotherCaptainS but when you say your a good player, my first reactions is "Who on this forum doesn't think they are a good player?" Many sure dishes it out the advise tho they are one.

Again, not a knock. Just an observation.

Gertjan
20-03-2012, 18:22
Actually I quite enjoy crushing the dreams of newbies who think that showing up with a list they got off the internet is all they need to win. :evilgrin:

That, or crush them with a popular army such as IG in my case but you don't follow the net wisdom at all. People calling your list bad since you don't go for vet spam and vendetta's. Subsequently you pound their awesome netlists into the dirt since they have no idea how to play with it as they didn't figure it out for themselves and thus have little idea what the principle behind the list is.

In the end, a good general does make a difference, but the codex bears a lot of it aswell. You can say what you want but even a very good Nids player is going to struggle if his opponent is playing a modern codex and also knows what he's doing. It's a combination of the codex aswell as the commander's skill. I know that the Nids player we have around here has a pretty damn good grasp of his army and what he can do with the entries in his book, nonetheless it's still an uphill struggle versus quite a few other players since they know their armybooks aswell, but the book itself is just better, sadly enough.

BrotherCaptainS
20-03-2012, 18:25
Not trying to knock on your skills BrotherCaptainS but when you say your a good player, my first reactions is "Who on this forum doesn't think they are a good player?" Many sure dishes it out the advise tho they are one.

Again, not a knock. Just an observation.

I know what you are saying, no offense taken, I am ranked in the top 10% though so, I think I am a pretty good player. Plus I never really gave any advice, my only point is that it is the general that makes the army. not the other way around.

Obake123
20-03-2012, 19:00
I guess its like watching formula 1.

Doesn't matter how good the car is if the drive is no use.
Doesn't matter how good the driver is if the car is no use.

Draconis
20-03-2012, 20:33
Either way, the game in it's current meta still heavily favors IG and SM. But I'll keep chugging away at my bugs cause I love the underdog and the fluff is my favorite part about them. Nothing beats the idea of something just simply wanting to eat you. Nothing more, nothing less. No goals, no gains, they just want you for your body.

xavos
25-03-2012, 18:30
As for the biotitan ambiguities, just wait for 6th edition and Apocalypse will follow.

And while we're at it.. my gripes with Phil Kelly:
- Warriors of Chaos: abandoned by the daemonic gods, they were left to settle as uber-norsemen.
- Beastmen: abandoned by both the daemonic gods and chaos brethren, they were left to settle as a mishmashed community of random ambushers and wild monsters.
Well, I don't know if they are gripes anymore, since I have gotten used to the idea of our current Warriors and Beastmen being completely different entities to what they were in 6th edition.

Draconis
25-03-2012, 20:31
That seems to be the thing of it right now. Complete and reversal retcon. Nids lost their adaptability. Crons totally redone. And as you say, chaos and beastmen totally changing as well. I wonder if it means anything.

Shamana
25-03-2012, 22:51
That seems to be the thing of it right now. Complete and reversal retcon. Nids lost their adaptability. Crons totally redone. And as you say, chaos and beastmen totally changing as well. I wonder if it means anything.

Er, do some of these have anything to do with Kelly? I don't follof fantasy, iirc in 40k he's been the main author of Eldar and Orks in 4th, then Space Wolves and DE. Apart from some pricing issues with space wolves and their amazing psykers, I think he's been relatively solid.

Draconis
26-03-2012, 00:39
Kelly will go with whatever direction GW tells him to. Obviously, so its always possible.

jt.glass
26-03-2012, 12:19
Not trying to knock on your skills BrotherCaptainS but when you say your a good player, my first reactions is "Who on this forum doesn't think they are a good player?"I don't, particularly. I'm average at best.

GrogDaTyrant
26-03-2012, 15:59
Er, do some of these have anything to do with Kelly? I don't follof fantasy, iirc in 40k he's been the main author of Eldar and Orks in 4th, then Space Wolves and DE. Apart from some pricing issues with space wolves and their amazing psykers, I think he's been relatively solid.

He also wrote the current Beastman army book, which quickly was labelled as the '5th ed Nid codex of Fantasy'.

Shamana
26-03-2012, 16:08
He also wrote the current Beastman army book, which quickly was labelled as the '5th ed Nid codex of Fantasy'.

Did he? It seems to have been quite the mess over the project. I thought it was Andy Hoare's work, and I've heard the name Jeremy Vetock dropped a few times, too.

Dreadlordpaul
26-03-2012, 16:28
People think grey knights are unbeatable LOL ive beaten them with a DE army which had no tanks in. Yet the guy i beat steam rollaz my chaos marines with orks. I have steam rollered vanilla marines with chaos marines yet i didnt take a net list. Point is in a non tourney enviroment net lists suck

Konovalev
26-03-2012, 17:13
People think grey knights are unbeatable LOL ive beaten them with a DE army which had no tanks in. Yet the guy i beat steam rollaz my chaos marines with orks. I have steam rollered vanilla marines with chaos marines yet i didnt take a net list. Point is in a non tourney enviroment net lists suck

People think Tau suck in close combat. But I've mulched a 10-man berserker squad with Aun'Shi(May the greater good be with him wherever he is). I've killed an avatar in close combat with a Tau Shas'El. I've beaten 4000pts of tyranids and chaos space marines with 2000pts of codex:space marines, which included 2 full tac squads and a full assault squad. I've steam rolled a 2000pt biotitan with a chimera that had no weapons. Point is anecdotal evidence is anecdotal at best.

Charistoph
26-03-2012, 18:10
Did he? It seems to have been quite the mess over the project. I thought it was Andy Hoare's work, and I've heard the name Jeremy Vetock dropped a few times, too.

The Beastmen codex was finished by Kelly when the original author left. There's no way to tell from this perspective how much Kelly did or didn't do toprep it for production.

-Loki-
27-03-2012, 10:08
DE: Mass poison. Stuff to remove whole models. Lots of fast transports. Grenades.

You know, it's funny, but my friends Dark Eldar consistently have a hard time against my Tyranids. Maybe due to the fact that he plays Wych spam and doesn't overload on ranged poison weapons - and the fact that he's terrified to play aggressively, but the only units he seems to have luck against are my gaunts. He still hasn't downed a Carnifex with his Scourges (his only massed ranged poison weapons, but man do they kick out the shots) or figured out a good way to deal with hidden Hive Guard blowing up his Raiders, or a Flyrant tearing Lelith a new one.

Every game, his Scourges lose out to a Carnifex with a Stranglethorn Cannon or being assaulted by unsupported Gargoyles, his Hellions have a hell of a problem with Warriors hitting them from double their range with a Venom Cannon, and other things The Internet tells me shouldn't be happening.

totgeboren
27-03-2012, 10:27
Maybe due to the fact that he plays Wych spam and doesn't overload on ranged poison weapons - and the fact that he's terrified to play aggressively,

You know, I don't think he could win against anyone if he plays that way. You could as well have said he plays a SM gunline with three full Devastator squads, and that he always runs and tries to assault things with them....

DEADMARSH
28-03-2012, 20:12
For me, it's simple math. I know that a Rhino is tougher than a Tervigon. Sure the Rhino can be destroyed in 1 hit, but it's not likely. More likely the Tervigon will be killed in 9 Missiles whereas it would take 9 or more on average to take out a Rhino. And the rhino is doing its job. The same follows through with the rest of the army. Math is the ultimate equalizer. Luck is the balance to math.

Wait, what? 9 Missiles to take out a Rhino?

I want to see the math equalizer that says that.

Shamana
28-03-2012, 23:03
Wait, what? 9 Missiles to take out a Rhino?

I want to see the math equalizer that says that.

If he counts them as shots. With BS 3 9 missiles = 4.5 hits, 0.75 glances, 2.25 penetrating hits (presuming AV 11), so roughly 1 wrecked/explodes result.

Of course, by the same token they can't kill a tervigon - that would iirc only do around 4 wounds.

PANZERBUNNY
29-03-2012, 20:27
No doubt. I don't disagree. A lot of this game comes down to your army comp. Often you can look at two armies pairing off across a table and if you've played long enough know which army should win before the first turn begins.

It's just that whenever standard internet protocol on what is good is challenged, it is usually rebuked by someone claiming that that is rubbish that the only time that is true is if you are playing against bad opponents.

To be honest and fair, most of us are not elite. At best we are all average. Some of us are even poor at this game. Then there's the wildly random nature of dice to consider...

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