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Malorian
15-03-2012, 17:00
I don't know about others but I'm finding this really funny:

I'm sure we all know that Wood Elves pulled the short straw from 8th. Major things that helped them in 7th were just gone and in return they are faced with missions that are practically auto lose and vaster armies that are harder to get points from.

To fight this I have been switching to a completely mobile WE army. If I can't win combat then why try. The army is mainly glade riders and then filled in with a lvl 4 (life), noble for hail of doom, waywatchers, and then other fast elements for flavor.

The funny part is now people are complaining about my army, talking about how I'm not playing the game properly with my cheesy army.

What are they expecting? That I'll march my weak gladeguard in front of their hordes and wait to die?


Anyway, I was just wondering if any other WE players out there had gotten the same claims to their competitive builds.


Edit: Here is a battle with the list in question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIcqxFaWkBQ&feature=youtu.be

boli
15-03-2012, 17:12
I've been tempted to field a horde of 60 Gladeguard; but otherwise I've stuck to.. and got torn apart with my smaller skirmishing force in general :/ Although my experiance with WE in this edition is somewhat limited :/

Malorian
15-03-2012, 17:16
A big unit of glade guade only works (competitively) in a folding fortress or backed by a stubborn characters and/or lore of life.

Duke Ramulots
15-03-2012, 17:19
With all the talk of how weak WE's are I decided to start an army myself and have found them to be really easy to win with. Ive only played two games with them but both were wins and the two scenarios were watchtower and battle for the pass(the two I thought would be unwinnable).

I saw your recent battle against the skaven and the thing I took away from that video is that there must be more than one competetive build because that army was nothing like the one I use. I tend to have treekin, dryads, and a treeman with level 4 life and tons of glade guard.

Akkaryn
15-03-2012, 17:23
Granted my gaming group isn't the most competitive group in the world by far but I have yet to lose with them (6-0.) it has got to the stage where I have started buying a new army because it wasn't fun for them to play against.

Granted in general senses my group don't use hordes so when glade guard hit something with mass fire it isn't in any stage to get into combat with a poodle.

So unfortunately despite 2012 being the year of the wood elves it appears I'll be going green with o&g

xisor83
15-03-2012, 17:24
some poeple always find something to moan about when they get beaten so i wouldnt worry about it. I would love to see more players taking these sorts of mobile lists and then the meta would move slighly away from big unmovable blocks of infantry. I saw your bat rep using the wood elf glade ride list and thought the list was nicely balanced and by no means overpowered. I am finding myself more drawn to this style of play myself now i'm using greenskins and have access to wolf riders and think its a nice change of pace from the norm. Would certainly advise you to stick to the wood elf tactics your using and if people dont like it then they might take a couple of smaller more mobile units themselves to deal with you. Or perhaps heaven forbid they may even take some ballistic skill based shooting of their own.

IcedCrow
15-03-2012, 17:31
Wood elves against normal built non-must-win-or-i-am-not-a-man armies are fine. It's when they start going up against tournament build deathstars that have 200 models per unit that they start to struggle, and in those cases find the weakest elements of the enemy and hammer it to get points and then deny the big hordes as best as you can.

TsukeFox
15-03-2012, 17:46
I think the elves can do combat.
2500

Lvl4 beast+steed+glamour weave

Noble+BSB+warrior bane+ stone of rebirth+iron curse icon+dragon helm+light armour

Spell singer+ scroll
Tree man ancient

(2x) great eagles

30x eternal guard +standard
4x warhawk riders
5x wardancer troupes

(3x) 10x archers
17x archers+standards+flame banner

10x dryads
(2x) 5x dryads
5x glade riders

The plan is to drop the chaff-everything but the archers & eternal gaurd, then archers to choose what must & (key phrase ) can die to concentrated 47 shots

Last trip before chars is the E.Gaurd with the treeman at its flank at a choice target that can be beat with the aid of beast magic+treeman.
This hopefully is on a flank or anywhere far away from the Opponents leadership bubbles- everyone has a weak point.
The flyers and fast calv delay enemy advances.

The BSB will be stubborn due to the eternal gaurd as well as the treeman.
The lvl4 can keep up & bail if needed.
A bubble savage beast on the noble and treeman should do a lot of crunching. Curse of Anrehier will also help delaying advances ( if we all accept that people should take dangerous terrain test for open ground ) & help in combat.

And I take ratling guns to deal with chaff & Calvary.

Poncho160
15-03-2012, 17:56
Could you post a army list, of the type you are talking about Malorian? Im strangley attracted to starting a Wood Elf Army amry becasue i love thier minature range (the original Wood Elf Dragon is stii my Favourite minature of all time!), but also I like a challenge!!! haha

Malorian
15-03-2012, 18:00
Sure. Here is the 2K list:

Lvl 4 spellweaver w/ steed, scroll, fireball ring
Noble w/ steed, hail of doom, light armor, enchanted shield, spear

10 glade riders w/ banner, musician
10 glade riders w/ banner, musician
10 glade riders w/ banner, musician
6 glade riders w/ musician
5 glade riders
5 glade riders

3 war hawks

5 waywatchers
5 waywatchers

Total: 1998


So yes you can make a list to beat it, but I feel this style of army is the best why to compete against other tournament armies.

My opponents may be frustrated by me avoiding combat, but they don't realize how tough it is for me to crack their hordes that span board edge to board edge.

tmarichards
15-03-2012, 18:03
I've had Elf players grumble about Glade Guard after I take off 20-25 White Lions/Corsairs in a single shooting phase, and if people don't know how to deal with Treekin then they're very capable of ruining hobbies.

TsukeFox
15-03-2012, 18:08
I think the elves can do combat.
2500

Lvl4 beast+steed+glamour weave

Noble+BSB+warrior bane+ stone of rebirth+iron curse icon+dragon helm+light armour

Spell singer+ scroll
Tree man ancient

(2x) great eagles

30x eternal guard +standard
4x warhawk riders
5x wardancer troupes

(3x) 10x archers
17x archers+standards+flame banner

10x dryads
(2x) 5x dryads
5x glade riders

The plan is to drop the chaff-everything but the archers & eternal gaurd, then archers to choose what must & (key phrase ) can die to concentrated 47 shots

Last trip before chars is the E.Gaurd with the treeman at its flank at a choice target that can be beat with the aid of beast magic+treeman.
This hopefully is on a flank or anywhere far away from the Opponents leadership bubbles- everyone has a weak point.
The flyers and fast calv delay enemy advances.

The BSB will be stubborn due to the eternal gaurd as well as the treeman.
The lvl4 can keep up & bail if needed.
A bubble savage beast on the noble and treeman should do a lot of crunching. Curse of Anrehier will also help delaying advances ( if we all accept that people should take dangerous terrain test for open ground ) & help in combat.

And I take ratling guns to deal with chaff & Calvary.

Glamour weave talisman*

Poncho160
15-03-2012, 18:10
Im guessing the hawks are used for redirection shenannigans, the waywatchers for warmachine and fast scouting units hunting and the glade riders for circling the enemy, firing off thier bows?

You see, i like that list and it feels to me how wood elves should be played! haha

Malorian
15-03-2012, 18:17
Im guessing the hawks are used for redirection shenannigans, the waywatchers for warmachine and fast scouting units hunting and the glade riders for circling the enemy, firing off thier bows?

You see, i like that list and it feels to me how wood elves should be played! haha

The hawks also have the advantage of being able to fly over units, so they can always escape a ring of troops.


So it's an army that plays like how they are described in the fluff AND it's the only way to make them highly competitive.

The fact that people complain about them blows my mind.

boli
15-03-2012, 18:28
It misses wardancers tho.. my favourite unit (lore wise) of wood elves as it defines the feral and animal nature of the WE whilst maintaining their grace and culture. In much the same way you think of Dwarven Slayers; Skavenslaves and Witch Elves... those units define the essance of what the army is all about.

I always have to add at least 5 wardancers w. musician to any WE army I field... just *because* :)

Rob and Roll
15-03-2012, 18:32
I have only played a few battles with my wood elves in 8th and have found WE very competitve when played like the avoidance shooting armies it has always been. I haven't had any bad comments on them though. People tend to appreciate the different playstyle and challange of trying to catch the sneacky wood elves.

Sure, some opponents (like skaven) can be tough, but I am not scared of the big death stars that are slow to turn and move.

T10
15-03-2012, 18:33
The funny part is now people are complaining about my army, talking about how I'm not playing the game properly with my cheesy army.
.
From the rest of your post it is hard to tell if you are actually playing to win or not, but it seems to me that you are more interested in avoiding the enemy and preserving your troops than you are in winning the game. Or rather, it is a matter of abilty: Wood Elves aren't well suited to the kind of grinding combats that are in vogue these days.

So that begs the question: Why do it? It seems to annoy your opponents and frustrate them, and while it is certainly a great passive-aggressive method of suggesting that they might want to think outside the box a bit and add some tactical variation to their armies, remember that they can grumble at your game style and go find other opponents with comparable playing style.

So they get one game out of x where they get taught that their army is crap, and the rest of the time they have a great time that reinforces their stereotype impressions of how the game is played. But you get to play every game against opponents who hate your guts.

Doesn't really seem worth it.

Malorian
15-03-2012, 18:36
So that begs the question: Why do it?

Um, because it's the only way WE stand a chance...

(Did you read the thread?)

xisor83
15-03-2012, 18:37
lets be honest anyone who would hate someones guts over them bringing a fragile but manouverable army and outplaying them has issues and i wouldnt be too worried if they wanted to find other opponents.

T10
15-03-2012, 18:48
That would be a chance of what? Surviving, sure. Winning, unlikely.

I'm not of the opinion that people shouldn't play Wood Elves, but as you said (and I agree) the current edition isn't very friendly to the current Wood Elf army book. It seems to me that the key to having an enjoyable game with wood elves hinges more on your opponent accomodating you than with any army out there.

And from what you say in your initial post, those players that called your army "cheesy" don't seem to be of the accomodating kind.

I don't think I can assume them to be ******** just because they want to play Warhammer:The Grindfest, so I gotta wonder why they deserve to be put in their place so bad?

abdulaapocolyps
15-03-2012, 18:49
Can you build a wood elf army without any elves?
If you did an all tree army it could double up as terrain?: )
Seriously though,I like treemen and am not an elf fan.how would that army work?

TsukeFox
15-03-2012, 18:50
Um, because it's the only way WE stand a chance...

(Did you read the thread?)
My list can win & very much so worth a try.

Your list- well your opponent could just castle in a corner and never move. Send errant magic missiles your way or artillery blast.

With no glade bows you will never nickel and dime effectively.



"For Hates Sake I Stab at Thee....
"

minionboy
15-03-2012, 18:54
Hey Mal, do you have any wood elf battle reports? I watched your 2300 vs Skaven, but I'm a little more curious about even points games.

Thanks!

brother_maynard
15-03-2012, 18:56
Malorian, to answer your question from the perspective of a non-WE player- i don't think they are cheesy (this is laughable) but they are not as weak as everyone claims. they are hands down my least favorite tournament matchup. a good WE player can identify the points he can collect and then collect them and there is very little you can do about it. The learning curve is extremely high, but when you draw someone who knows what they are doing, its not as easy a game as the internet would have you believe.

Paladin21
15-03-2012, 19:06
The one build I did that no one wants to play against again (ab)used the Folding Fortress with a horde of Glade Guard joined by a lifeweaver with the harp and a noble with a Crown of Command. Stand outside the Fortress, shoot 40 shots a turn or two, then retreat into the tower. The unit has the banner that lets them always stand and shoot, so the opposing units get shot both in my shooting phase and their own combat phase. Not a particularly fun build to play against (or with, for that matter), but annoyingly difficult for them to do anything about.

Symrivven
15-03-2012, 19:09
Its totally acceptable, I don't think there is a rule somewhere that states you have to valiantly stand still and wait for your opponent to destroy you with his superior close combat units.

Frustration for your enemy is an absolutely ridiculous argument, because fighting units in close combat that are far better than yours can be pretty frustrating to. Really everything can be frustrating, facing a magic heavy army wile you have no mages your self can be frustrating to. Should that prevent people from fielding a lvl 4 mage and some magic boosting items or units? I don't think so.

In warhammer its the trick to play your army to its strengths (well that counts for practically every strategy game). The mobile shooty army will try to stay out of combat so it can shoot, the aggressive close combat army will try to get into combat where it can crush the enemy. The one who executes his plan best will win (of course there is some randomness trough the dice).
If an army invests in close combat it should invest in ways of getting there, for it is in that's armies best interest to get in close combat.

tmarichards
15-03-2012, 19:11
Hey Mal, do you have any wood elf battle reports? I watched your 2300 vs Skaven, but I'm a little more curious about even points games.

Thanks!

If you're after Wood Elf battle reports my thread would likely be very interesting to you.

Malorian
15-03-2012, 19:14
T10, it can win alright. All you need is to be up 100 points and you win (by a massacre if by double the VPs or more).



Hey Mal, do you have any wood elf battle reports? I watched your 2300 vs Skaven, but I'm a little more curious about even points games.

Thanks!

I only just recently got the glade riders I need to make this army possible.

There will be a game on Saturday against VC, although it wont be even as he will have 450 more points than me...

Beastlord
15-03-2012, 20:25
I don't understand why anyone would have a problem playing this army - it's legal and even fluffy which is more than can be said for a lot of apparently acceptable lists. Why shouldn't a WE player use their units manouverability to win? As others have said why should WE players stick to what is apparently the accepted way of playing the game - "slam your units together and watch them grind eachother to pulp" - rather than play to their strengths? I would be delighted to play against this force - it would be fun trying to work out how to catch them.

Duke Ramulots
15-03-2012, 20:54
I would like to play against Malorians list as well, my orc n goblins would be running in circles throwing fits and slurs at them and thats about it... Unless I could corral him into a corner.

Malorian, you should play your buddy Oncebitten with that list vs. his Brets. As a fan of both of your battle reports I think that would make for decent entertainment.

BattleofLund
15-03-2012, 21:03
I've had Elf players grumble about Glade Guard after I take off 20-25 White Lions/Corsairs in a single shooting phase, and if people don't know how to deal with Treekin then they're very capable of ruining hobbies.

This reply caught my eye because I misread it as 'if people don't know how to deal with Treekin then they're very capable of ruining hobbits.' :)
And I thought 'serves the damned hobbitses right!' Ebil Grin.
Also, replying because this thread interests me - planning to play GreenElves.

The Low King
15-03-2012, 21:07
I think this list would suffer vs certain armies...my dwarfs for example

Someone complaining about it is being silly. Sure, you may not like fighting it with your deathstar list, but then every organised army in history hated guerilla warfare. I can see it gettign the same complaints as gunlines though..

BBWags
15-03-2012, 21:10
T10, it can win alright. All you need is to be up 100 points and you win (by a massacre if by double the VPs or more).

I think this might be where the angst comes from because it doesn't "feel" right. Now I'm not saying that makes the sentiment correct, I just think that is where it comes from. Losing a few chaff units but doing hardly nothing to the opponent for six turns and getting a loss because of losing a couple fast cav or skirmishing archers isn't very fun. Most people play the game for the brutal battle and decimating the foe if possible. The avoidance tactic takes that away ... And with it, the fun for many people. Again, not saying it's right, just saying I understand it.

Sexiest_hero
15-03-2012, 21:12
Mal, your list is fine. I do the same thing with beastmen and get the same "Cheesy" calls. I run 10-14 units of Raiders ambushing half, Scouting razorgor chariot and single razorgors, with scouting harpies. Needless to say warmachines are done by turn 2 and I play "ring around the rosie" till I can get a flank with my flying doombull and gorghon. It's a list I made after getting banned from taking forest terrain and sticking an ungor raider horde in it for stubborn shooting. All the SC have been banned and they are thinking of banning Ambushing and Skin of men. I've started playing Daemons to not get dirty looks, but I'd rather have friends to play with.

BBWags
15-03-2012, 21:25
Really? Sorry at the risk of derailing, but thinking of banning AMBUSH?? that's ridiculous! I'm sorry, but it sounds like your gaming group wouldn't be a very fun one if they react like that to beastmen. It sounds more like they don't feel like thinking up a counter, so they just ban it. Meta should be allowed to shift, not be shackled to one dimension of the game...

Wesser
15-03-2012, 22:27
This is what I've said all along.

Play woodies like this and the standard horde armies will struggle. What good is the chosen deathstar if it never sees combat?

Should have made this thread myself, but instead I'll kip my hat for Malorian

The bearded one
15-03-2012, 22:28
As a general lore of fire user (fireballs EVERYWHERE! mwuahah!) my lizardmen wouldn't mind playing a game :P

Frimbleglim
15-03-2012, 22:34
@OP

This happened to me back in 5th/6th eddition I forget which.

I was playing against Chaos in a 500pts an my opponent had taken a unit of chosen knights. I ran rings around him all game and won on captured table quarters. The manager of GW Bournemouth threatened to ban both of us if we ever played a game like that again. he said "That's not even Warhammer. That's friendlyhammer". sic

There was one point back then when everyone at the GW vetran's night refused to play me on grounds that my army was 'beardy'. Which was pretty annoying given that I had spent all my pocket money for several months if on the army (I was 14 back then).


This is a hazard of warhammer in general as I see it. Everyone hates being the one who isn't calling the shots. There is always the danger of this in a wood elf army from any edition. The fact that people can beat wood elves these days wont' change that.

Duke Ramulots
15-03-2012, 22:39
My guess is that the frustration that wood elves make certain people feel is the reason that ETC limits the number of shooting models to like 40.

The bearded one
15-03-2012, 22:40
I wouldn't refuse a game. I'm too friendly for that ;)
Besides I'd rather play a game chasing wood elves (or flinging fireballs at them, that's much more enjoyable), than getting butchered by daemons, but I wouldn't refuse either way.

Frimbleglim
15-03-2012, 22:54
It was a different game back then. All about flanking with fast cavalry, the run away trap, avoiding redirected charges and negating rank bonus's. Back then you wouldn't kill an army you would just make it run and scatter. The rules had a very different feel.

(sorry getting nostalgic there there is a point to this. )

Magic was still powerful but magic resistence gave you extra dispell dice. You probably all remember this but basicaly it was a whole different game with different good points and bad points.

Shimmergloom
15-03-2012, 23:47
That system of hiding and never fighting inside fortresses or behind woods(which was even worse in pre-8th) may be 'tactics' but it's very boring and you'll run out of opponents who are willing to play. Avoiding combat is a valid tactic. Having every game devolve into you having to avoid all combat and run around doing nothing all game and hoping you don't play a dark elf or dwarf who will shoot your glade riders to smithereens, is going to bore you and all your opponents.

I think that's the bigger reason why wood elf players have mostly disappeared. No one wants to be the only ones playing a totally different game than everyone else.

Andy p
15-03-2012, 23:48
Frankly I see nothing wrong with your army and play style whatsoever Malorian. There are far more commonly annoying armies and builds to face out there.

Besides some armies are frustrating by their very nature....Daemons come to mind but maybe im just not good at dealing with them.

Malorian
16-03-2012, 00:02
Having every game devolve into you having to avoid all combat and run around doing nothing all game and hoping you don't play a dark elf or dwarf who will shoot your glade riders to smithereens, is going to bore you and all your opponents.

Though to be fair, smashing them in the face over and over with my orcs starts to bore them just as much.

Balerion
16-03-2012, 00:04
Sure. Here is the 2K list:

Lvl 4 spellweaver w/ steed, scroll, fireball ring
Noble w/ steed, hail of doom, light armor, enchanted shield, spear

10 glade riders w/ banner, musician
10 glade riders w/ banner, musician
10 glade riders w/ banner, musician
6 glade riders w/ musician
5 glade riders
5 glade riders

3 war hawks

5 waywatchers
5 waywatchers

Total: 1998


So yes you can make a list to beat it, but I feel this style of army is the best why to compete against other tournament armies.

My opponents may be frustrated by me avoiding combat, but they don't realize how tough it is for me to crack their hordes that span board edge to board edge.
Do you actually own 46 Glade Riders?

Shimmergloom
16-03-2012, 00:11
To a person's psyche though, they can think of ways to deal with combat, that's why you rarely hear people complain about combat armies. People complain about things like overpowered magic, shooting or avoidance.

Because in all three cases your army can be just helpless to do anything about those 3 situations and tactics don't come into play. There's nothing you can tactically do to stop someone from throwing 6 dice at a spell. There's nothing you can tactically do to stop someone from bringing tons of war machines and there's nothing you can do if you are M3-4 to stop M9 cavalry from just running around outside your LOS all game avoiding you.

This is pretty much why Dark Elves are considered the most powerful army. They have great shooting, magic that's overpowered and they are good in combat. They are also fast enough to play the avoidance game when they want to.

Malorian
16-03-2012, 00:15
Do you actually own 46 Glade Riders?

Yes sir :)

You can see 40 of them in my last battle report.

IcedCrow
16-03-2012, 00:21
It's no more boring than having to face a death star horded out with 200 guys and the level 4 wizard chucking six dice hoping for IF on a big daddy spell.

Lord Dan
16-03-2012, 00:24
I don't know about others but I'm finding this really funny:

I'm sure we all know that Wood Elves pulled the short straw from 8th. Major things that helped them in 7th were just gone and in return they are faced with missions that are practically auto lose and vaster armies that are harder to get points from.

To fight this I have been switching to a completely mobile WE army. If I can't win combat then why try. The army is mainly glade riders and then filled in with a lvl 4 (life), noble for hail of doom, waywatchers, and then other fast elements for flavor.

The funny part is now people are complaining about my army, talking about how I'm not playing the game properly with my cheesy army.

What are they expecting? That I'll march my weak gladeguard in front of their hordes and wait to die?


Anyway, I was just wondering if any other WE players out there had gotten the same claims to their competitive builds.

In my opinion both armies should be written and played to ensure that both players are having a good time. If taking a normal Wood Elf list ensures you'll get trounced every time and means you won't have any fun, then that list won't work. If taking a all-mobile "can't catch me" list irritates your opponent and means he won't have any fun, then that won't work either.

Either find the balance required (which will be tricky with WE), or play a different army for a while.

The Low King
16-03-2012, 00:38
In my opinion both armies should be written and played to ensure that both players are having a good time. If taking a normal Wood Elf list ensures you'll get trounced every time and means you won't have any fun, then that list won't work. If taking a all-mobile "can't catch me" list irritates your opponent and means he won't have any fun, then that won't work either.

Either find the balance required (which will be tricky with WE), or play a different army for a while.

And if you arnt playing against someone like you? What happens if you are playing in a tournament?

Duke Ramulots
16-03-2012, 00:45
If you cannot write a competetive list, maybe you're the problem. Malorians army should make you stop and think "wow, theres a big hole in my list. Maybe running three hordes of M4 troops isnt a good idea", not "Whaaaa!!!! I can't catch them... No fair".

The Low King
16-03-2012, 00:51
If you cannot write a competetive list, maybe you're the problem. Malorians army should make you stop and think "wow, theres a big hole in my list. Maybe running three hordes of M4 troops isnt a good idea", not "Whaaaa!!!! I can't catch them... No fair".

Exactly. One of the reasons i have stopped just using 3 Hordes (standard dwarf list) was woodelves. After Struggling to catch several large blocks of glade guard i realised that my list had a fundemental weakness.

riotknight
16-03-2012, 00:52
46 is a good start... I have another 48 or so to build. Will bring me to around 84 :). I just love the models.
Sent from my LG-E900h using Board Express

The bearded one
16-03-2012, 00:55
I should be able to destroy it in a blaze of flames. My list is undestructable.. mwuahahahah!!*





* got stomped by daemons today

Duke Ramulots
16-03-2012, 01:03
Exactly. One of the reasons i have stopped just using 3 Hordes (standard dwarf list) was woodelves. After Struggling to catch several large blocks of glade guard i realised that my list had a fundemental weakness.

My orc list would have suffered the same fate, but after seeing Mr. Malorians youtube battle I am making a faster list.

minionboy
16-03-2012, 01:11
If you're after Wood Elf battle reports my thread would likely be very interesting to you.

Hey tmarichards, I've actually been watching your battle reports. Even though it was crushing, I kinda got a chuckle from your game vs the Mournfangs, since I'm primarily an ogre player. Lore of Life would have changed everything!

RanaldLoec
16-03-2012, 01:19
I play Empire a very static cumbersome army in 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th.

For a completely different take on 7th edition and to rekindle my interest in warhammer I bought a highly elite, fragile, hit and run army.

Every thing about Woodelves screams out manoeuvre the strong and prey on the weak. Slay the glade defiling outsiders one by one until nothing but the rustling of the trees marks their passing.

This is how Woodelves have worked for years just because every one thought that kind of game was dead doesn't mean its not valid any more isn't it refreshing to see a different way to play the game rather than two hordes slugging it out for 5 turns to no gain.

NEVER tell a gamer hes playing the game wrong, just because I don't play your way.

One game many ways to be played.

Man up, Page 5 your self.

tmarichards
16-03-2012, 01:25
I've actually been watching your battle reports. Even though it was crushing, I kinda got a chuckle from your game vs the Mournfangs, since I'm primarily an ogre player

It's happened more than once now that my army has been run over by a handful of Mournfangs while the Ogres army stands in the background and watches :(

They don't like Wildformed Treekin though...

Duke Ramulots
16-03-2012, 01:30
It's happened more than once now that my army has been run over by a handful of Mournfangs while the Ogres army stands in the background and watches :(

They don't like Wildformed Treekin though...

@2500 points you can get a level 4 life and beasts in there.

Lord Dan
16-03-2012, 01:43
And if you arnt playing against someone like you? What happens if you are playing in a tournament?

If you're playing in a tournament and are going in with a WAAC mentality you shouldn't be taking wood elves. Their army book is old and obviously full of holes, so it's sort of silly to come up with ways around those huge problems. Given that, I assumed the topic was surrounding playing against friends with non-competitive lists.

tmarichards
16-03-2012, 01:57
I can, but it involves cutting out 300pts from elsewhere which I don't believe to be worthwhile.

Malorian
16-03-2012, 02:42
I assumed the topic was surrounding playing against friends with non-competitive lists.

Oh no, they run competitive lists.

Sure if I run into a new guy I feel like a jerk, but then again getting your first run-around from a WE player is going to happen eventually and you need to learn how to prepare for it and counter it.

Sedekiel
16-03-2012, 03:09
They also can produce good lists with blocks of eternal guard along with nobles for stubborn and 2 lvl 3 life spellweavers...Not a nc surprise to face To 5/7 eternal guardsmen or treekin lists...
Anyway it just seems to me that there are some nusty tricks a WE player can still pull...An all cav army is certainly one of them :)

Shimmergloom
16-03-2012, 04:43
If you cannot write a competetive list, maybe you're the problem. Malorians army should make you stop and think "wow, theres a big hole in my list. Maybe running three hordes of M4 troops isnt a good idea", not "Whaaaa!!!! I can't catch them... No fair".

The problem is that the other 14 armies are indicative of hordes of troops and not lost of fast msu troops. It's like people all wanting to get rid of their GW weapon characters for magic weapon characters because of VC. That is fine for facing VC, but then you want those GW troops vs most other armies. M4 troops are good 99% of the time, so you can't accuse those people of crying when that's the way GW has set up the game.

You have to prepare for what you are likely to face, not prepare for the idea that maybe someone will show up with a wood elf avoidance list, that you can't deal with.

Why
16-03-2012, 05:00
I see one problem, any shooting say godbye to your beloved horsies.

Malorian your list is a good one but I don't thinks it's, "The only way WE can be competitive." If I ran this list after the third game I would get destroyed by a gunline. It's a nasty trick but just like any other it gets old and people figure out how to beat it.

Duke Ramulots
16-03-2012, 05:57
The problem is that the other 14 armies are indicative of hordes of troops and not lost of fast msu troops.

WRONG! people choose to run the other armies with big hordes. All of the armies have ways of making a well rounded list.

Walls
16-03-2012, 07:08
To be fair, Malorian isn't really making lists for other people to have fun against. He's making tournament smash (or shoot) face in armies. His normal horde armies wouldn't be any more fun to play against I am sure. A couple giant blocks just locking you down in combat all the time is as bad as just getting shot all game. Not that he's wrong in doing so. He'll admit, I am sure, that he makes "tourney" armies. Of course, they are normally in non comped environments. I'd be interested to see what he'd run in SCGT style comp.

AS FOR Wood Elve combat builds... no...

Tom Richards pretty much sums it up perfectly in his last few battle reports. Why ever charge? Giant Eternal Guard block? It's good for Wood Elves. I am pretty sure any Warriors unit of the same price would gladly face it.

Poncho160
16-03-2012, 07:35
I've been inspired by this thread to start a Wood Elf army.

Seeing as it will be my first Warhammer Army, I'll probably lose a hell of a lot, but I like a challenge (I play nids in 40K haha).

Duke Ramulots
16-03-2012, 08:07
I've been inspired by this thread to start a Wood Elf army.

Seeing as it will be my first Warhammer Army, I'll probably lose a hell of a lot, but I like a challenge (I play nids in 40K haha).

I havnt played 40k for 8 years, are nids now the underdog(they kinda were overpowered when I played em)

Poncho160
16-03-2012, 08:13
They are not the underdogs that the internet in general makes them out to be, but it can be challenge facing certain armies especially if they have compentent generals.

Jind_Singh
16-03-2012, 08:28
Woodies are just fine!

They suffered because:

1) Oldest army book out there - so some strange points and restrictions
2) Players who played them were used to a VERY different play style - then 8th came out and it made the army completely different to what they had for years, crushing what they loved the most about their armies. This is a huge blow - and will kill the game for those said players
3) No obvious point and click lists, no obvious `pick me` units to throw an army together
4) They require a gutsy and trained general to do well with them


Having said all that they are a fine army - especially for me - as I never used them before so I don`t have any sourness about life over them. I am currently helping a newbie to get into the game and he chose the Woodies - so we played a few games over the last week (Night Goblins in one, Khorne Daemons in the other).

I did not just want to roll his army up into a small ball and crush it - I sat down with the book and looked at the options, saw what struggles they would face, and thought to myself - if I was a Wood Elf player what would I do in this situation - and then we did it!!

They have enough options that I could quite easily make a list, take it to a major tournament, and expect an easy top 10 finish from 40 players, somewhere between 10 and 5th spot - but not top 5 unless I got lucky.

And that would be right away - then I`d get down and play the army inside and out for the next year and expect a top 5 finish with them - just based on my gut feeling with the book.

Don`t forget - in 7th ed a great Woodie General, to me, was a top tier player - and they were! I took the best of my Daemons and got routinely smashed by a Woodie from North Van - a more sour and horrible beatdown I never got from anyone else! He also crushed my Greenskins on a regular basis!

However, he`s the only guy to have done so with the Woodies - so it`s a high caliber gamer we`re looking for - I don`t think they have that same edge in 8th ed, but they can still easily be a top 10 contender for the tournament throne if played right

Jind_Singh
16-03-2012, 08:31
edit - unless all 40 players were Warriors of Chaos - then I would be in a slight world of pain! They are tricky!

But there are some sexy combos - Against Orcs & Goblins I`d be laughing all the way to the victory bank! Steadfast would not be an issue against me, and I can take them - actually trying to get one of the better Greenskin players to play me with me using the Woodies to prove that point

Daniel36
16-03-2012, 08:32
So I played a Storm of Magic game the other day with my Wood Elves and won. And I am, in general, not a really good player.
Sure, one could argue a large chunk of my win was luck, or perhaps bad luck on the opposing side, but just because SoM has some killer spells doesn't mean it doesn't require any tactics or skill.

What I liked about SoM in particular was the way it handles deployment. Seeing as you can deploy your armies pretty much in charge range, that means you can get units like Wardancers into the fray right away, which is what you want for them. You can have your heavy hitting Treekin right in there as well. And while you keep some units at bay, you can pick off others using your Glade Guard, safely deployed a little further back.

It really was a refreshing game and one of the most fun games I've had in a while, and that's not just because I won.

Havock
16-03-2012, 08:50
It's no more boring than having to face a death star horded out with 200 guys and the level 4 wizard chucking six dice hoping for IF on a big daddy spell.

Yes, that and my army (warriors of chaos) really doesn't give two flying ****s about a bunch of S3 projectiles. And staying out of combat forever is so last edition, not gonna happen with random charges. ;)

Frimbleglim
16-03-2012, 12:34
I've been inspired by this thread to start a Wood Elf army.

Seeing as it will be my first Warhammer Army, I'll probably lose a hell of a lot, but I like a challenge (I play nids in 40K haha).

Don't collect wood elves or if you do use the high elf rules for now. They really cannot win competitive games and sooner or later you will end up playing against competitive armies. This army would get shot to bits by dark elves for example.

T10
16-03-2012, 12:40
If you cannot write a competetive list, maybe you're the problem. Malorians army should make you stop and think "wow, theres a big hole in my list. Maybe running three hordes of M4 troops isnt a good idea", not "Whaaaa!!!! I can't catch them... No fair".

That only becomes an issue if your horde army loses against the evasion army. A draw just proves your horde army can't lose. :)

-T10

T10
16-03-2012, 12:43
Don't collect wood elves or if you do use the high elf rules for now. They really cannot win competitive games and sooner or later you will end up playing against competitive armies. This army would get shot to bits by dark elves for example.

It is not true that Wood Elves "can't win". It's just that winning takes a lot more luck and effort than with most other armies. I think it is safe to say that getting a win with a WE army against a seasoned opponent who is in it to win it marks you as a very good Warhammer player.

-T10

Poncho160
16-03-2012, 13:02
Don't collect wood elves or if you do use the high elf rules for now. They really cannot win competitive games and sooner or later you will end up playing against competitive armies. This army would get shot to bits by dark elves for example.

No offence and thanks for the advice, but i won't be taking it.

I wouldnt collect an army if the only reason i took them was too win. I like the Wood Elf minatures, thier background and i like a challenge when wargaming.

Whilst winnig a game is always good, it is only a small part of the hobby and whilst Wood Elves might not be a power army, like Tyranids, i doubt they are as bad as the internet makes out.

Andy p
16-03-2012, 13:09
Don't collect wood elves or if you do use the high elf rules for now. They really cannot win competitive games and sooner or later you will end up playing against competitive armies. This army would get shot to bits by dark elves for example.

Meh I wouldn't discourage anyone from their inspirations, no matter how bad the army might be or not be. What is wrong with him being enthused enough by this thread to want to start collecting them?

Not everyone plays in a competitive environment and while I understand the idea of foresight here, that is to say that if he IS going for a competitive army then he might be put off and waste money on something he will eventually sell in frustration, I still dont think we can assume he is going to react like that. Some people just love the models themselves, or the fluff and in many cases it is a combination of the two.

My first real army was a fluff based night goblin horde which I still use in conjunction with orcs and normals goblins these days, it actually revolved around a real Night gobbo warboss....LD 7 and all, (well to be fair ld 8 with the discipline banner). Sure it got smashed a lot of the time, but I didnt care since I was enjoying the story of my army and I loved seeing it all spread out and set up ready for combat.

thrawn
16-03-2012, 14:11
I don't know about others but I'm finding this really funny:

I'm sure we all know that Wood Elves pulled the short straw from 8th. Major things that helped them in 7th were just gone and in return they are faced with missions that are practically auto lose and vaster armies that are harder to get points from.

To fight this I have been switching to a completely mobile WE army. If I can't win combat then why try. The army is mainly glade riders and then filled in with a lvl 4 (life), noble for hail of doom, waywatchers, and then other fast elements for flavor.

The funny part is now people are complaining about my army, talking about how I'm not playing the game properly with my cheesy army.

What are they expecting? That I'll march my weak gladeguard in front of their hordes and wait to die?


Anyway, I was just wondering if any other WE players out there had gotten the same claims to their competitive builds.

i had this exact same conversation with someone here (i'll look for the thread). i'm running the same type of army, and although i don't always win (no matter how many times i shoot those warriors of chaos, i just can't kill enough) people are crying bloody cheese.

i don't understand. i had someone here lecturing me about strategy, and then of course i asked him the all important question of how am i strategising by marching my glade guard in front of your horde and then dying? if you can't catch me, sounds like you got the strtegy problems.

Malorian
16-03-2012, 14:19
...i don't always win...

Sorry, but as soon as I read this I had something else pop into my mind:

"I don't always win, but when I do it's cheesy..."

http://staythirstymyfriends.com/

Poncho160
16-03-2012, 14:20
Im out of the country at the moment s haven't got access to my army books, but what lores can wood elves take?

Malorian
16-03-2012, 14:23
They have their own lore plus beasts and life.

I find life works well with my style. Regrowth keeps units up and alive, the magic missile is nice, and dwellers can break units down. Then if things really fall apart you have enough buffs to survive combat.

I may have to try beasts though since it seems to work well for others.

Their own lore is pretty weak... I'd rather slap on a wizard hat.

Poncho160
16-03-2012, 14:27
Sorry, but as soon as I read this I had something else pop into my mind:

"I don't always win, but when I do it's cheesy..."

http://staythirstymyfriends.com/

Im sorry but I dont see what relevance that link has to do with toast. Toast should be nicley browned with a nice layer of butter spread on top. The option of jam or marmalade is left up to the person eating said piece of toast! ;)

Da_White_Orc
16-03-2012, 15:58
it blows my mind that people consider that wood elf list broken.

sounds like the people at your store are of the persuasion that if their current list can't beat it, it's broken.

against a shooting night goblins list with fanatics and war machines, that wood elf list you posted would be lucky to last 2 turns.

Sexiest_hero
16-03-2012, 16:16
Yep, I'm just not gonna run up against a Chosen death star. Chaos has hounds Horsemen, spawn, and flying lords and heroes that can trash my Ungor raiders harpies and razorgor, It's not my fault if they don't get taken. The spell fireball and even chain lighting will do a number on me, I could care less about purple sun though. too bad people load up on shadow death and life, again not my fault. I got the same things while playing Tyranids. First battle, Ymgarl genestealers pop up and tear through a Grey wolf army. next battle Grey wolves pack into terrain and I just set up the ymgarls normally and drop 7 pie plates a turn. Now Tyranids are broken, and thus I don't bother with 40k (till 6th). I think I still have a tyranid tactica up here.

Malorian
16-03-2012, 16:21
Now Tyranids are broken, and thus I don't bother with 40k (till 6th). I think I still have a tyranid tactica up here.

Off topic, but I assume you are meaing broken as in they suck and not in that they are good.

If you are staying away from nids because you think they are too good then feel free to take on a grey knight player...

Lord Dan
16-03-2012, 16:56
I hear Necrons aren't very good, either. :p

Warhammer Madman
16-03-2012, 17:17
I would love to play an army like this... with a couple of units of miners and an anvil dwarfs can really bring the pain in a MSU contest!

tomorrow I will be playing my friends woodies and though he focuses on selective combats a list like this could be interesting...

boli
16-03-2012, 17:46
Maybe you could play a mini tournament with max unit size of 20; (including raising) be interesting to see how underpowered WE actually are. :P

Duke Ramulots
16-03-2012, 18:12
Maybe you could play a mini tournament with max unit size of 20; (including raising) be interesting to see how underpowered WE actually are. :P

By adding in the unit cap youre not proving anything exept that altering the game makes funny results.

boli
16-03-2012, 18:24
Most tournaments add a unit cap at 50 or 40... reducing it still further it not unprecedented.

Malorian
16-03-2012, 18:29
Most tournaments add a unit cap at 50 or 40... reducing it still further it not unprecedented.

Depends where you live. Around these parts there isn't a single tournament with a unit cap.

Mister Blak
16-03-2012, 19:53
Really? Sorry at the risk of derailing, but thinking of banning AMBUSH?? that's ridiculous! I'm sorry, but it sounds like your gaming group wouldn't be a very fun one if they react like that to beastmen. It sounds more like they don't feel like thinking up a counter, so they just ban it. Meta should be allowed to shift, not be shackled to one dimension of the game...

Sorry for replying to such an old quote, everybody, but this caught my eye.



Player one: ambush is annoying.
player two: yes, yes it is, especially when it's being used against me.
player one: I know! Let's ban ambush! That way our war machines will be safe!
player two: genius!
player one: I know.
player two: y'know, the Tomb Kings keep taking out my cannons with entombed beneath the sands...
player one: banned!
player two: and slann can be sometimes difficult to take down...
player one: consider them gone!
player two: not to mention the troubles I always have keeping up with vampire's attrition rates...
player one: out they go!
player two: but there must be something I haven't considered... hmmm...
player one: hmmm... I know! Let's cover our asses by making it a rule that we always win, no matter the end score!
player two: I love you.
player one: I know.

>:(

Matrixstar
16-03-2012, 20:18
i have just got back in to wfb with a skaven army and one off my play group plays a wood elf combat denial list, i dont have problem with it as it just means a different way that i have play, thou i think being a 'horde player' that doesnt run horde units helps ;)

Duke Ramulots
16-03-2012, 20:20
Sorry for replying to such an old quote, everybody, but this caught my eye.



>:(

Was that quote taken from the last ETC meeting?...lol

MOMUS
16-03-2012, 20:37
Depends where you live. Around these parts there isn't a single tournament with a unit cap.

Do you think this type of list could be a back-lash against the horde-list becoming more prevalent?

Im currently working on a skink skirmisher list which would play in a similar way...

Sexiest_hero
16-03-2012, 21:52
The Wolf player said my Tyranids were broken Because of ymgarls, genestealer hordes and the special Hive tyrant. It was way before Grey knights came out with their Nail in the coffin of 40k. Hell Dragio is broken in the fluff, let alone on the table Daemons ruing away in fear? Kairos and Kugath getting one shot, Lascannon toting monkeys. Space marines faster than the fastest tyranid. Able to one shot a deepstriking army, or burn a whole horde of orks with cleansing fire. No sir, I will not play that mess.

The Low King
16-03-2012, 22:22
Nids arnt broken.....

I do find that as more people take larger horde units you see more and more Hit and Run type lists, same as when you see more deathstars people take more Mages with Suicidal tendencies.... and as people take more monsters others take more cannons.

Unfortunatly some people never learn and are still taking 3 blocks and nothing else when their opponants just take a lot of templates or Hit and Run armies..

Bloody Nunchucks
16-03-2012, 23:25
i actually love taking msu with my high elves and then facing a chaos or deamon player with a horde and some other blocks.....then i cast dwellers and shoot them to death. the biggest problems this list has is hell cannons and TK shooty lists

Spiney Norman
17-03-2012, 00:05
Sure. Here is the 2K list:

Lvl 4 spellweaver w/ steed, scroll, fireball ring
Noble w/ steed, hail of doom, light armor, enchanted shield, spear

10 glade riders w/ banner, musician
10 glade riders w/ banner, musician
10 glade riders w/ banner, musician
6 glade riders w/ musician
5 glade riders
5 glade riders

3 war hawks

5 waywatchers
5 waywatchers

Total: 1998


So yes you can make a list to beat it, but I feel this style of army is the best why to compete against other tournament armies.

My opponents may be frustrated by me avoiding combat, but they don't realize how tough it is for me to crack their hordes that span board edge to board edge.

Interesting list, but I'm a little hazy on how you actually cause damage, is it all run away with the horses and cast dwellers every turn to actually kill stuff?

I've had a wood elf army since their current book was released about 8 years ago and I regularly use two small units of glade riders (6 in each) but they never really accomplish very much and usually get shot or magicked to death. I'm slightly struggling to see how you kill stuff (str 3 shoot is junk even with a high BS, although I get the KB arrows from the WWs will help there).

I can't really see why most average armies shouldn't be able to remove a unit of 10 GRs in the shoot phase no problem, and a 6 man unit fairly easily in the magic phase, or does no-one take any ranged units where you're from? The only other thing I can think that would make this army good is if you played a table that was literally covered in woods. In an average game where there are 4-5 terrain pieces (6'x4' table) its going to be hard to keep everything behind cover, and that's no defence against magic.

Sexiest_hero
17-03-2012, 00:31
he's got 56 plus arrows plus hail of doom plus fireball ring. Every turn he can one shot a smaller unit, while avoiding big steadfast blocks. A mage bunker is usually a softer target and easy points for his list.

Warrior of Chaos
17-03-2012, 01:07
I don't understand. I had someone here lecturing me about strategy, and then of course i asked him the all important question of how am I strategising by marching my glade guard in front of your horde and then dying? If you can't catch me, sounds like you got the strategy problems.

This made me laugh out loud. Coming from my point of view, I'd have to agree with you. I find people's definition of cheese directly proportional to how quickly it effects their capacity to secure an easy win, when they have the mentality of win at all costs. I don't like to see the same lists played over and over again, because they get redundant and boring (though I am not a tourney player). With my group of friends, I can pretty much throw together anything (and the kitchen sink) on a given game day if I think it may be fun and throw their strategy for a loop. The biggest problem I see with Warhammer is the number of people who preach "strategy", but when they are pressed to adapt, you hear no end to the moaning about things that other players do which might require them to actually use strategy. I'm not saying that there are not some truly "cheesy" builds out there which test the limits of what a "beer and pretzels" game is supposed to be about, but for the most part I don't have problems with odd lists that make me have to really THINK to win.

On the Woodies. I own the book, but have never bought a model for them. I guess I'm just more concerned with waiting to see how nice an update will be. In the meantime I have VC/Dwarfs/WoC to keep me happy. :)

Plexi
17-03-2012, 01:56
A friend of mine started playing a WE list like this about a year ago. Does it get owned by a shooting army, of course. Does it win against the three unit death star armies, yeah, usually. It is a fun army to watch do its job, but it isn't really going to win a tournament. What it will do is play spoiler very nicely though. I was never very keen on the army due to the fact that I'm not a big fan of GR's. I've been playing WEs since 3rd edition as my primary army, and have never used them to any large degree. What I have been able to do however is help my friends WE army get better at what it does by looking at the weak spots.

1- We have found that warhawk riders are to cost intensive. Yes they can get back on the war machines fast, but so can a single eagle.
2- Wild Riders are a good idea to use as your unit to take out that one decent sized unit that GR's just cant handle. A good amount to get the job done is 10-15 with a noble in it.
3- For speed and trickery in another vein a good grab in a higher point game is a alter highborn with the spirit sword, helm of the hunt, potion of strength, dragonbane gem. If you feel really silly have a alter noble follow him around with the wraithstone. Try to ferret out what unit is carrying the flaming banner and this guy is money. Hell I've had him take out greater demons.
4- Waywatchers are a great idea on paper, but they never seem to get their points back in an army like this.
5- The temptation for a beast weaver is high, but don't do it unless you have a life weaver first.
6- This list ALMOST makes Orion playable.

I think that it is a very interesting take on what a WE army is, and that is guerrilla warfare. It is incredibly fragile but if you can work the vanguard and take out the immediate threats fast you can win some games. The fact that it is so easy to absolutely destroy in two turns is what makes some people call it cheese. They simply had the wrong army built for it. Rock, Paper, Scissors I guess.

Smithpod68
17-03-2012, 03:56
I've played WE since 6th edition and I think Malorian's list makes sense. WE are a HIT AND RUN army.Once I started playing 8th and realised that I didn't have to change my army's tactics,just change some unit's roles,I've done quite well. My friend plays a forest spirit list and he took 1st in a recent tourney and I took third. We just stuck to what we thought worked best for our armies.People who think it is cheesey are just frustrated cause they can't adapt to beat it.

Walls
17-03-2012, 05:33
Isn't that really every army ever?

Jerry
17-03-2012, 08:47
I read this something similar to this somewhere and I think it pretty much sums up people QQ'ing at cheese, "Paper is broken, Scissors are fine says Rock".

thesheriff
17-03-2012, 10:04
he's got 56 plus arrows plus hail of doom plus fireball ring. Every turn he can one shot a smaller unit, while avoiding big steadfast blocks. A mage bunker is usually a softer target and easy points for his list.

Assume Short Range on everything, which won't always be apparent;

Regular arrows (Warhawks, Glade riders, Mage) = 50 Shots
Against T3 = 16.3333r wounds pre saves
Against T4 = 11.1114 wounds pre saves
Against T5+ = 5.5554 wounds pre saves

Hail of Doom Arrow (Average 11, BS6, S4 shots)
Against T3 = 6.11 wounds pre saves
Against T4 = 4.58 wounds pre saves
Against T5 = 3.05 wounds pre saves
Against T6+ = 1.52 wounds pre saves

Way watchers (killing blow will obviously effect post saves odds)
Against T3 = 4.16 wounds pre saves
Against T4 = 2.77 wounds pre saves
Against T5+ = 1.11 wounds pre saves

Total T3 = 26.603
Total T4 = 18.46
Total T5 = 9.71
Total T6+ = 8.18

Now, taking into account that any army with units of that size for its toughness will either be;
A) sacrificial (skaven slaves to act as lightning panel, warhounds)
B) Heavily Armoured (Tzeentch Warriors of Chaos w/ Blasted Standard are going to take about 4 wounds from that shooting)
C) There small missile units (which usually get razzed up anyway, and are usually quite cheap)

Also, all those figures are based on Malorian having taken no casualties, being at no minuses, the units being shot having no magical buffs to make them more durable, and me having no saves.

I think the damage output without magic is not what you think it is.

thesheriff

EDIT; Sorry for the Mathhammer :D

wilsongrahams
17-03-2012, 16:28
Very interesting thread, and it is all down to tactics and generalship. My friend and I have started a campaign based on Kemmler invading Lorien. Our first game was 1160pts (for various reasons but we allowed Kemmler despite being over 25%). To fit the fluff my opponent took glade riders. Now he was able to march to get to the side of my units every turn and still shoot at full effectiveness. Free reform, and no move penalties are great there. Now every time I reformed to face, the same would happen. Was this cheesy? No - that was what wood elves would do - they have bows, why charge when they can whittle me down first. Did I give up? No, I reformed my army so that he could not escape every unit at the same time, and Kemmler began to zap them with magic, killing one unit over a couple turns and forcing his other unit to escape the magical death I was inflicting.

Now, it took me a couple turns to think up how to end the stalemate and a better deployment with that specific tactic in mind would have helped, but I found it to be a fantastic game for dealing with a problem of outmaneuvere rather than simply lining up and rolling dice - anyone can do this, but a proper general has to think and move about the battlefield.

My opponent and I are both players that use many small units rather than a few large ones, and this wood elf tactic wood work even better against such armies that are becoming common now - I saw a 3k game with 3 units of WoC a few weeks back. Very dull and was simply an exercise in rolling dice. Not a strategic game at all.

So to summarise this is a valid tactic, and no different to another army player taking units that are more efficient for their own reasons. It is up to him to work out how to deal with it and should be an enjoyable challenge as I found it. Now, I lost this game if using victory points as I spend quite a while doing little but trying to catch them and using healing spells instead of killing the cavalry. I did however keep Kemmler alive which was the objective so I think we both could claim a victory - mine a moral one, and most importantly we matched the fluff in our result (fluff mostly based on the old WE book not new VC book).

Lorcryst
17-03-2012, 17:39
Very interesting thread, nice idea for making the woodies work, and fluffy too !

I might suggest this idea to my Ogre/VC/WE playing buddy, but since he already flattens me with his Ogres and drinks me dry with his Vampires, I might not, just to have one army against which I might have a chance to win :p


But, this made me do a double-take :


In an average game where there are 4-5 terrain pieces (6'x4' table) its going to be hard to keep everything behind cover, and that's no defence against magic.

Spiney, you know that the recommended amount of terrain in 8th ed is D6+4, meaning a minimum of 5 and an average of 7 ?

And even with that amount of terrain, it's not easy to hide ...

Poncho160
17-03-2012, 17:52
Do WE still get thier free extra woodland terrain piece? If so placing that could be quite a tactical decision.

Plexi
17-03-2012, 19:16
Do WE still get thier free extra woodland terrain piece? If so placing that could be quite a tactical decision.

Yes they do, but in this army its fairly useless because you don't really have any tree singing to move it around. It still serves a purpose of sorts, but not as great as when you can move it to the middle of the battlefield.

Frimbleglim
17-03-2012, 19:48
The wood doesn't do much don't get over excited about it.

tmarichards
17-03-2012, 19:55
More often than not I don't bother to bring my free forest, it usually does more harm than good.

TsukeFox
17-03-2012, 20:10
More often than not I don't bother to bring my free forest, it usually does more harm than good.

Truely ? It at least lets your dryads be stubborn

thesheriff
17-03-2012, 21:26
Freewood gimic i use;

Step 1; Take a treeman (treeman regular is preferable, so you cant get stalled in an irrefusable challenge 'o' doom), and a Spellsinger, Lv.1 w/ the Calingors stave (whichever one lets you unlimited treesing)
Step 2; Stick him in the wood, as close to your enemy as possible
Step 3; Treesing him towards the enemy, using both his bound spells and otehr magic to get him within 6" of units.
Step 4; Strangleroot stuff
Step 5; If charged, you disrupt there ranks, and use tree-singing to do damage in the magic phase. And, even if you are charged in the flank or rear, Stubborn Ld8 shoudl help you to reform easily.
Step 6; Profit!

Great distraction, I would always take him.

Malorian
17-03-2012, 22:07
Ok, I had a battle with that list: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIcqxFaWkBQ&feature=youtu.be

It was... crushing...

Duke Ramulots
17-03-2012, 22:20
Ok, I had a battle with that list: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIcqxFaWkBQ&feature=youtu.be

It was... crushing...

Nice report!

GotrekFan
17-03-2012, 23:07
Nice report, but I wouldn't say that the woodies are broken after 1 game, especially after facing a VC list like that.
I'm no expert, but his list seemed very small for 2450. I get 2 units of 30 skeletons, 30 zombies, 20 ghouls plus characters (3 of which are casters) split between the units and fancy toys (mortis engine and vargeists plus others) for around the same. That and you had battle for the pass which really favours your long range shooting and makes it very hard to pin your guys down.


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Malorian
17-03-2012, 23:23
That and you had battle for the pass which really favours your long range shooting and makes it very hard to pin your guys down.

I don't agree with this at all. My tactic isn't based on backing up, it's about getting around you, and in battle for the pass it's hard to flank.

Had he set up on the line and marched up each turn (using vanhels for extra distance) a VC army could have easily crushed me.

The VC list was character heavy and had lots of support units which made that difficult for him, however there is no reason he couldn't just deploy in a long single rank and put on the squeeze. If I dare engage his vampier lord would rip me apart.

Duke Ramulots
17-03-2012, 23:43
@gotrekfan, its hard to use his "circle the wagons" strategy in battle for the pass.

GotrekFan
17-03-2012, 23:43
Fair point, you know your army best after all.
I was just suggesting that 1 massacre does not a broken list make:)


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thesheriff
17-03-2012, 23:47
It's a nice report, but I would still maintain that All-cav wood elves are extremely hit/miss. Id love to take a run at this with my daemons or lizards. You just played one of the lowest shooting rate armies in the game. You can't of expected anything less than a win. He had a tonne of chaff units, ONE magic missile, and just generally a very bad match up for him. He also had bad luck (his one phase to do damage was shut down/unlucky until the games death throws). And I don't know I'd it was shock or inexperience, but he made a few bad choices that did not reflect well on him as a general.

One thing that strikes me about this list again is that if he played you again, same list, sane senario, experience would dictate that he would know how to beat you. Like you said deploying in a line would have reduced you to being cornered. Turning his vargulf, dogs and wraiths to deal with the watchers would have betted him 250+pts for nothing really.

Also, even on the list itself, it wasn't fantastic. While I'd always like to think gerneralship is the most important thing, even by the standards of a regular, competative VC list, it wasn't great. Way to much on charecters and filler, as you said. He was trying to squeeze all the things that were used in the previous book into a new-book army. If he changed his list a bit, with the experience he now has with that kind of army, he'd have you in an instant IMO.

I will hand it to you, your use of Hail of Doom was clever, and targeting all the small stuff was the right move. But, I don't think it's as effective as in 7th, and most tournament generals who play to the same standard as you will be able to deal with it competently.

But, never the less, cool battle report.

boli
18-03-2012, 00:04
RE: battle report:

I can see your pain playing a game for fun or to win... I mean as a skaven player I can really mess people up if I want to but I try to play lists less competative than most... or less points cost to enjoy the game.

Having said that it woudl be interesting to see such a list against a more mobile army than a complete CC oriented force; your mobile WE vs a Gladeglade WE the massacre could be on the other side.

Tupinamba
18-03-2012, 02:20
I find it quite absurd that your gaming group is complaining about this cavalry list (by the way, I love light cavalry!). So, now the boring 2-3 buffed hordes list are not only common, but also obligatory?? Because your normal tourney army has to go prepared to deal with the "normal" horde armies, stuff that avoids that logic are broken or "frustrating"?

And the list has weakeness enough. As others have said it, any army with decent BS shooting would blow it apart. More balanced armies, with their own fast elements, magic missiles etc. would have better chances too and people would have to actually play the game. Itīs really funny. Everywhere I read the same arguments that fast cavalry, magic missiles and BS shooting are "useless" in 8th, but when an army appears that would be beaten by precisely these "useless" units, people complain about cheese?

So, not only do I find the complaints baseless, I think that your type of list has a healthy impact on the game and should force more varied and balanced lists in the metagame, which I certainly welcome.

TsukeFox
18-03-2012, 04:09
You must have been rolling pretty well to axe the grave gaurd with S3 bow fire- i guess they had great weapons instead of shields.

No flame rod for the vamps? That thing is awesome.

Further odd that the guy did not castle if he had advance knowledge of your play style...

Hope you try your list again against a more varied list.

DragonArmy
18-03-2012, 06:03
You're fine. If I had an issue with your army, it's not that it is "too good,"but rather you can destroy some match ups while not have a chance against others; your "skill" is in designing a list around the meta, while once you both unload your armies at the table you can probably predict the winner by either him not being able to catch you, or you not able to deal with something oh his list, which makes it feel like a much longer two hour experience to actually play it out.

Still, in the video, he needed to bring answers to your army and he just didn't have them, and he didn't realize how he needed to beat you after his list hit the table. I'd be discouraged if a WE army (an army internet says sucks) that had 450 fewer points beat me and I never got to attack it the entire game--but I would put the imputus on him to change the list and learn what do next time.

Gazak Blacktoof
18-03-2012, 12:06
I agree with thesheriff. Provided your opponent learnt anything, I think that in a rematch he might take the next game, even if he used the same army. He needed to concentrate his fast elements on one flank and hug the other board edge. You would have had nowhere to run and you'd have felt pressured by his full list of spells.

He might not be able to clear you off the board given your huge mobility advantage and his lack of ranged threats, but I think that a win of some description would certainly be possible.

Panic checks, fast units and ranged attacks will obliterate your army very quickly. I only count about 60 wounds including characters, all at toughness 3, with a maximum of a 5+ save(?). Any one unit only needs to suffer 3 casualties to be subject to a panic check, and by my reckoning you've got a maximum of leadership 9 and no re-roll.

I think you should continue to use the same army, play it multiple times against the same opponents and see if they can adapt to a different style of game. I certainly don't think they'll have problems after a few games.

Poncho160
18-03-2012, 12:31
The two main points I took from that video were that, playing WE like this seems very fluffy and depending on the oppenent / match up can actually work.

The other point was that you didnt actually seem too enjoy the game and seemed kind of sorry that your oppenent was very frustrated at not being able to get into combat. I actually appaluad this as you acknowledge that the game isnt there just too win, its for both palyers too enjoy themselves.

Poseidon_II_
18-03-2012, 13:03
You know you can play a tree spirit army, with only like treemen, dryads, treekins and dryacha. I got a friend that plays a treespirit army and in my opinion it is totally playable.
I think someone might have mentioned this but I am to lazy to read all replies.

stirogiperogi
18-03-2012, 13:53
The title of this post should read: How to use Fast Cavalry.

The flexibility of using vanguard moves along with the total domination of the movement phase makes fast cav the most improved unit type of the 8th edition.
In game, Fast Cav, still have some weakness, but they are a great hard counter to the lumbering hordes of slow moving infantry. (It is like they designed it that way.)
Sure we can argue that they do not do enough damage, and that they are too frail; but the Fast Cav units do have a tactical place in the game and it is not just the warmachine hunter anymore.

Imagine if this player were using an entire list of Dark Riders; which are cheaper, better in melee combat, and have real good shooting. What would we be saying now?

Duke Ramulots
18-03-2012, 13:57
Speaking of all fast cav armies, if they redesign the wolves of the goblin wolf riders like they did for the space wolves, I might have to field 200 of the buggers and see what that can do :)

Gazak Blacktoof
18-03-2012, 14:45
The flexibility of using vanguard moves along with the total domination of the movement phase makes fast cav the most improved unit type of the 8th edition.

/snip/

Imagine if this player were using an entire list of Dark Riders; which are cheaper, better in melee combat, and have real good shooting. What would we be saying now?

I think that in the context of a "normal" army skirmishers, particularly those that scout, are just as flexible and are still better. Skirmishers are able to march and shoot now, allowing them to be much more nimble than they were before, they're also stubborn in a forest and get that handy -1 to hit penalty. In the dark elf book the shades pack more punch for less points and even though they're special instead of core, people still field them in large numbers.

What skirmishers lack is the ability to avoid all units, including the fast ones, so in the context of an avoidance based army they're the better choice.

Dark elves have much more aggressive spell lores, so if this tactic has a chance to consistently win, even against experienced opponents, it's probably with dark elves.

thesheriff
18-03-2012, 20:54
Speaking of all fast cav armies, if they redesign the wolves of the goblin wolf riders like they did for the space wolves, I might have to field 200 of the buggers and see what that can do :)

See, im not sure if this will work. What youll gain in bulk/volume of wounds/shots, you lose in both speed (wolves are no Elven steeds) and in deadlyness. At least Malorians wood elf list has BS4 across the board, and some really cool shooting tecniques. As well as Lore of Life (Dwellers) and Flyers. And while Gitilla is nice, the one real way you would want to make this effective, is with the Spider banner. But, if you amke a big ass unit of wolf-riders, you lose the whole idea of the list (even if you do then have more poison).


The flexibility of using vanguard moves along with the total domination of the movement phase makes fast cav the most improved unit type of the 8th edition.
In game, Fast Cav, still have some weakness, but they are a great hard counter to the lumbering hordes of slow moving infantry. (It is like they designed it that way.)
Sure we can argue that they do not do enough damage, and that they are too frail; but the Fast Cav units do have a tactical place in the game and it is not just the warmachine hunter anymore.

Imagine if this player were using an entire list of Dark Riders; which are cheaper, better in melee combat, and have real good shooting. What would we be saying now?
You mean shade star, right? :D Well, at least the modified version. Sneaky Dark elf armies are proven to work. And, i rekon is a damn sight more competative (if still having many of the same issues and WE). For example;

2k

Lords
*Dreadlord, Pendant of Kaeleth, Lifetaker, HA, Crown of Command, Shield, Sea dragon Cloak, Dark Pegasus = 300

Heroes
*Sorceress, lv.2, dark steed, Dispel Scroll = 172
*Sorceress, lv.2, dark steed = 147
*Master, BSB, HA, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Guiding Eye, Dawnstone, Repeater x-bow = 170

Core
*10 Dark Riders, X-bows, Banner = 234
*10 Dark Riders, X-bows, Banner = 234
*10 Dark Riders, X-bows, Banner = 234
*5 Dark riders w/ X-bows = 110
*5 Dark riders w/ X-bows = 110

Special
*6 Shades = 96
*6 Shades = 96
*6 Shades = 96

Total = 1999

40 Bs4 x-bows
18 Bs5 x-bows
1 Bs6 X-bow
Lifetaker

Oh, yeah, I would fear that alot more. The issue in part with Malorians list (imho) is the lack of fire-power. Yeah, its got great maneurvrability, but it lacks the ability to kill stuff. This, while it doenst drop the d-bomb every otehr turn, is still pretty good on offensive magic, and has WAY more shooting. Its alss better in combat too, with hatred and a decent unkillable-lord combo.

Duke Ramulots
18-03-2012, 23:11
@Thesheriff, the wolves are the same speed as the elven steed(M9). Not only that but with the list all being 4+ saves they would make up for lack of skill with survivability and having a bunch of hard hitting heros wouldnt hurt :)

I was working out a list like this and think if I run it I'd still use a few doom divers to try and take out some of the harder stuff early on.

stirogiperogi
18-03-2012, 23:19
See, im not sure if this will work. What youll gain in bulk/volume of wounds/shots, you lose in both speed (wolves are no Elven steeds) and in deadlyness. At least Malorians wood elf list has BS4 across the board, and some really cool shooting tecniques. As well as Lore of Life (Dwellers) and Flyers. And while Gitilla is nice, the one real way you would want to make this effective, is with the Spider banner. But, if you amke a big ass unit of wolf-riders, you lose the whole idea of the list (even if you do then have more poison).


You mean shade star, right? :D Well, at least the modified version. Sneaky Dark elf armies are proven to work. And, i rekon is a damn sight more competative (if still having many of the same issues and WE). For example;

2k

Lords
*Dreadlord, Pendant of Kaeleth, Lifetaker, HA, Crown of Command, Shield, Sea dragon Cloak, Dark Pegasus = 300

Heroes
*Sorceress, lv.2, dark steed, Dispel Scroll = 172
*Sorceress, lv.2, dark steed = 147
*Master, BSB, HA, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak, Guiding Eye, Dawnstone, Repeater x-bow = 170

Core
*10 Dark Riders, X-bows, Banner = 234
*10 Dark Riders, X-bows, Banner = 234
*10 Dark Riders, X-bows, Banner = 234
*5 Dark riders w/ X-bows = 110
*5 Dark riders w/ X-bows = 110

Special
*6 Shades = 96
*6 Shades = 96
*6 Shades = 96

Total = 1999

40 Bs4 x-bows
18 Bs5 x-bows
1 Bs6 X-bow
Lifetaker

Oh, yeah, I would fear that alot more. The issue in part with Malorians list (imho) is the lack of fire-power. Yeah, its got great maneurvrability, but it lacks the ability to kill stuff. This, while it doenst drop the d-bomb every otehr turn, is still pretty good on offensive magic, and has WAY more shooting. Its alss better in combat too, with hatred and a decent unkillable-lord combo.

I also run an all mounted Wood Elf list. It works against certain army builds, but not all. The list is not, as you call it, a firepower army;rather it is a death-by-a-thousand-cuts type of army: in which it is atypical as well as asymmetrical. In other words, people do not expect it, or understand how to play against it.

As a whole, The Dark Elf army book, is the most ridiculous exercise in under-priced units--ever. Never the less, Dark Elf, Wood Elf, or what ever else; Fast Cavalry is a drastically changed unit type, and it is good to see other players creatively finding uses for these dynamic game pieces.

thesheriff
18-03-2012, 23:55
@Thesheriff, the wolves are the same speed as the elven steed(M9). Not only that but with the list all being 4+ saves they would make up for lack of skill with survivability and having a bunch of hard hitting heros wouldnt hurt :)

I was working out a list like this and think if I run it I'd still use a few doom divers to try and take out some of the harder stuff early on.
Wolves are M9. Hmmm, they just got better in my eyes :)

And the 4+ saves are nice, not to mention the fact your riding semi-decent wolves and not horses.

However, I would advise against warmachines. As soon as you put static things in your army (especially over 100pts of them), you present an easy target for your opponent. With this style of list being effectively "creative points denial", if I were it see 160pts of Doom diver, I would throw all that I had at them, and then make it all the harder for you to clam a 100pt lead on me.

Nah, I wound stick to wolves, charecters and maybe some chariots.

I also think that wolves would work well in low pts games. Consider Maloriabs list. It's quite compact at 2k, so it has the advantage of being easy to maneuver, even for fast cav. At 1000pts, rocking up with 30 fast cav and some killer charecters would be frightening!


I also run an all mounted Wood Elf list. It works against certain army builds, but not all. The list is not, as you call it, a firepower army;rather it is a death-by-a-thousand-cuts type of army: in which it is atypical as well as asymmetrical. In other words, people do not expect it, or understand how to play against it.

As a whole, The Dark Elf army book, is the most ridiculous exercise in under-priced units--ever. Never the less, Dark Elf, Wood Elf, or what ever else; Fast Cavalry is a drastically changed unit type, and it is good to see other players creatively finding uses for these dynamic game pieces.
The "death by 1000 cuts" conatation is nice. Probably more fitting. And perhaps, it is slightly unfair for me to compare woefully under-pointed Dark elves to woefully over-pointed Wood elves. Still, I maintain that Dark elves are the current kings if this style of play, which is a tad sad, but none the less, extremely true.

willowdark
19-03-2012, 20:42
This style worked in 7th, and it works now for all the same reasons. The point has always been that successful WE armies win by engaging the enemy supports and avoiding the main combat blocks.

But you don't have to do that with fast cav and bows. The weird sort of irony to this is that if you execute that strategy with combat units instead of bows your opponent will likely never feel like you're being gamey. Even though you're trading the same number of wounds, the fact that you're models are in base contact has the psychological effect of making him feel like he's participating, even though he lost for essentially the same reason, because you targeted supports and avoided the main battle line.

In my 7th ed army, the only shooting I brought was the HoDA. No Glade Guard. No Riders. I used Dryads, Wardancers, Alter Heroes, and Wild Riders, to swarm the enemy and clean up his supports before engaging the center line, and my opponents loved playing me because I engaged them in combat instead of running around and shooting, even though he still lost for essentially the same reason. I also brought along a TMan and TKin to feed to his combat blocks, along with redirectors, again to make him "feel" like we were engaging, but it was a red herring, a ploy to make him think that he was getting somewhere while I focused on cleaning up his support units.

The only difference now is that I've traded my Wardancer Highborn for a Lvl4, and traded my TMan for more TKin to make the unit bigger. And since we're playing 2400 now instead of 2250, I'm shuffling around some stuff to bring some archers back into it, all just to make up for the new bigger units you see. The strategy is still the same. I target supports and avoid the main blocks, except I do it with combat instead of shooting so my opponents don't feel jerked around.

I've said it before: For all the changes in 8th and all the ways WE were supposedly nerfed, I find that we still win with essentially the same tactics we always have.

Gav2k
21-03-2012, 09:00
I used a list not too disimilar from Malorian's 2000pt list just last night for a 1500 game against WoC:

--- Lifeweaver: Lv4; Talisman of Preservation; Ruby Ring of Ruin; Elven Steed
--- Noble BSB: Asyendi's Bane; HoDA; Elven Steed

--- 3 x 10 Glade Riders w/ music & standards

--- 3 Warhawk Riders

--- 5 Waywatchers



It was a fun list for me, and I managed to pull off a draw (a big deal for me, a rarely have a game where I dont lose outright). But my opponent didn't enjoy it as he spent most of his game just turning his guys ariund,,unable to catch me. As I only play friendly games, the whole point is to have fun with the guys, so I don't think I'll be using such a cav-heavy list again, but I definitely learned a few new tricks that I'll incorporate into my future army lists.