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Rob
16-03-2012, 02:16
Was just looking up fluff on the unknown Primarchs and I ran into some internet info saying that in the PC game DoWII the Blood Ravens war cry references one of the unknown Primarchs. Am I wrong? If I'm not then could it be that GW is just messing with us or are they slowly leading up to something?

If eventually they reveal fluff about it then I'm all for it! Personally I don't like "unknowns" but this is just me and I've been itching for a story ever since the 2nd edition boxed set.

Rogue Star
16-03-2012, 02:18
They just don't know who their Primarch was. Doesn't mean it was one of the two Missing Primarchs.

althathir
16-03-2012, 02:36
Yeah, I don't think GW will ever really reveal the two missing primarchs, their absence was intential so people could design their own chapters.

Scribe of Khorne
16-03-2012, 03:34
Its Magnus. Its been all but plainly stated who they are.

Dhurrin
16-03-2012, 05:33
Yeah, I don't think GW will ever really reveal the two missing primarchs, their absence was intential so people could design their own chapters.

While I agree this was the intent, making your own chapter descended from the Missing Primarchs is now such a cliché that I do not know of anyone who does that... except for their very first chapter.

Israfael
16-03-2012, 06:49
Yeah, I don't think GW will ever really reveal the two missing primarchs, their absence was intential so people could design their own chapters.

Honestly, I've been part of this hobby for years - and never seen anyone take advantage of this. Every DIY chapter I've encountered - in several different clubs - are always a successor of one of the current originals.

I'm starting to wonder if anyone ever did.

AndrewGPaul
16-03-2012, 09:16
Funnily enough, the only non-canon First Founding Chapter (as they were at the time) I remember seeing was the Valedictors was in the battle report between Jervis Johnson and Andy Chambers in White Dwarf 136, using the example army from the army list article in WD 126.

The problem with homebrew Chapters using the missing Primarchs in their background is that people do it wrong, and make the Primarch being missing a Big Thing. If you were to use them as "intended"; just assume that in your 40K the missing Primarchs weren't missing and simply ,treat them as "normal" like Rogal Dorn or Jagatai Khan, then the resulting Chapter would likely be much less of a poorly thought-out Mary Sue Chapter.

Kenzaburo
16-03-2012, 09:19
as scribe of khorne stated (no use for spoiler tags there, i think) - it has been widely speculated that the blood ravens might be descendants of the thousand sons. it has been hinted at in the games time and time again and even mcneill played with that idea in thousand sons - during prospero's destruction i think, there was a vision of a raven and whatnot.

the only statement against that, as far as i remember came from ADB, who said something along the lines of this not being an official origin of the ravens or something.

the unknown primarchs, though, are still unknown. they've been hinted at in the heresy novels but just as a tease for us fans. it's highly doubtful that GW will reveal anything about the 2 in the near future - and i'm fine with that. leave some of the mysteries of 40k be.

cheers,
kenza

AndrewGPaul
16-03-2012, 09:22
Of course, there used to be three lost Primarchs - probably as a nod to the three Roman legions lost in the Teutoberg forest in the first century - but at some point in 2nd edition one of those became Corax.

Lord-Caerolion
16-03-2012, 09:26
Yes, they mention "the unnamed Primarch" in their battle-cry, but that's because they don't know who their Primarch is, thus his identity is "unknown". Nothing more to it than that.

shadowhawk2008
16-03-2012, 10:07
Gav Thorpe made it quite clear at BLL during the HH seminar that the HH authors will not be talking about the lost primarchs period, as in offering any revelations or anything. This was due to the fact that the hints so far (ATS, TFH, Rebirth) have been pretty heavy-handed and there is a danger of ruining the charm of the whole idea. The other panelists pretty much nodded :-)

StraightSilver
16-03-2012, 11:27
Chris Wraight's Horus Heresy short story "Rebirth" confirms that the Blood Ravens are a Thousand Sons successor Chapter, made up from those Thousand Sons who escaped the Rubrik of Ahriman.

However he does question why some Marines were left behind, and that's anybody's guess.....

Kenzaburo
16-03-2012, 12:24
not having read rebirth - how come a traitor legion was actually allowed to reform? besides garro and his homies, there hasn't been too much talk of loyalist marines in the traitors beside those slaughtered at isstvan III.

especially considering the TS deal with tzeentch, or at least magnus' deal with him concerning the flesh change. if they stayed loyal they would have either still been endangered by the flesh change breaking out or the disease stopped by daemonic means. once the =I= would have been created they probably wouldn't have been too fond of that, right?

Satan
16-03-2012, 12:32
Gav Thorpe made it quite clear at BLL during the HH seminar that the HH authors will not be talking about the lost primarchs period, as in offering any revelations or anything. This was due to the fact that the hints so far (ATS, TFH, Rebirth) have been pretty heavy-handed and there is a danger of ruining the charm of the whole idea. The other panelists pretty much nodded :-)

But... that's what everybody want's to read...

shadowhawk2008
16-03-2012, 12:36
It doesn't confirm. It HEAVILY hints that yes they just might be, and this is precisely what Gav meant at BLL.

StraightSilver
16-03-2012, 14:00
I guess that's down to interpretation, I took as as much confirmation as was needed.

The fact that he has red power armour with a raven's head on the shoulder pad searching for lost arcane items and swears to form a brotherhood of fellow TS marines and that their watch words would be "knowledge is power" was as good as saying "we will now be called the Blood Ravens". :)

But ok, it doesn't explicitly say that, but I didn't feel it needed to.

As for Marines who's chapters sided with Horus going on to form other loyalist chapters, we have Garro et al who may or may not have been the basis for the Grey Knights.

It's possible that those Thousand Sons who escaped the Rubrik did so because they were still staunchly loyal and were therefore allowed to succeed their original chapter.

The only thing that isn't suggested is just how many Thousand Sons did escape, Chris Wraight's story only mentions a handful, which wouldn't be enough to form a successor Chapter, so it's possible they had an influx of Marines from elsewhere?

AndrewGPaul
16-03-2012, 15:25
But... that's what everybody want's to read...

I don't, and neither does Kenzaburo. :)

ErictheGreen
16-03-2012, 16:22
There are many hints in the HH novels that the missing primarchs existed in the setting but something either went wrong with the legion, or the primarchs were lost in the warp. etc. etc.

Russ himself mentions them, and as he is considered the Emperor's "Executioner" it's possible he was called upon to do the deed.

[/speculation]

Skits
16-03-2012, 17:20
The only thing that isn't suggested is just how many Thousand Sons did escape, Chris Wraight's story only mentions a handful, which wouldn't be enough to form a successor Chapter, so it's possible they had an influx of Marines from elsewhere?

I have no real evidence regarding this - however, from the hints I've picked up from ATS and Rebirth, I suspect the entire Fourth Fellowship wasn't even on Prospero when the Wolves struck. In the Dramatis Personae at the front of ATS, the Captain of every Fellowship is listed - except for the Fourth. Also in ATS, it's stated that Magnus sent the ENTIRE Sons fleet away from Prospero, with sealed orders to be opened at a later date. And the characters in Rebirth are all from the Fourth Fellowship.

My theory is that the whole Fourth Fellowship, a full thousand marines strong, was on that fleet. Therefore, they weren't on Prospero and subsequently weren't teleported to the Planet of the Sorcerers. However, they probably WERE fairly well scattered, since Magnus pretty much sent them to the four corners of their held territory. Which could probably explain why Rebirth only had a handful of them.

It would also explain why the Ravens are a fleet-based chapter, and why they carry around their own library with them, etc. etc. XD As for the flesh change... perhaps the Rubric did work. Sure, it Rubricae'd all the non-psykers on the Planet of Sorcerers, and made the psykers there more powerful - but they were in the Warp. Who knows what effect the Rubric actually had in real space?

Idaan
16-03-2012, 17:22
Was just looking up fluff on the unknown Primarchs and I ran into some internet info saying that in the PC game DoWII the Blood Ravens war cry references one of the unknown Primarchs. Am I wrong? If I'm not then could it be that GW is just messing with us or are they slowly leading up to something?

If eventually they reveal fluff about it then I'm all for it! Personally I don't like "unknowns" but this is just me and I've been itching for a story ever since the 2nd edition boxed set.
The fact that they don't know their Primarch doesn't automatically mean that it's II or XI, or even one of the Traitor ones. There are quite a few Chapters who don't know who their Primarch was. Celestial Lions and Carcharodons from IA 9 are two examples, and with out-of-universe knowledge that the reader has, it's a pretty easy guess that their Primarchs were, respectively, Guilliman and Corax.

shadowhawk2008
16-03-2012, 17:43
Plus the Silver Skulls CLAIM Guilliman as their Primarch :-)

randian
16-03-2012, 19:09
There are quite a few Chapters who don't know who their Primarch was.
Why don't they ask the AdMech? Geneseed tithes and genetic testing for purity that they do would seem to make identification easy and definitive.

We know that the AdMech has stores of Traitor geneseed. If the Blood Ravens are a Thousand Sons successor, their geneseed won't match that of any loyal first founding chapter. The obvious conclusion is that they're from Traitor stock. A test to confirm would be easy.

Lothlanathorian
16-03-2012, 19:13
Just because they were founded doesn't mean that they know who they were founded from. There was one whole official founding in the fluff where they don't have a clue who's geneseed was used for any of the Chapters and, sometimes, the AdMech like to mix geneseed together and make a new Chapter just to see what might happen. I wish I could remember exactly where I read these two things, though.

Lord Damocles
16-03-2012, 19:13
If the Blood Ravens are a Thousand Sons successor, their geneseed won't match that of any loyal first founding chapter. The obvious conclusion is that they're from Traitor stock. A test to confirm would be easy.
What would the Blood Ravens' Chapter Master do then though?* That's gonna be some press release, and it's not going to be easy to put a positive spin on it.

Perhaps they don't want to know/want others to know.



*Well, Angelos being Angelos, he'd probably yell, and hit something with a hammer...

The Red Pilgrim
16-03-2012, 19:16
Perhaps they don't want to know/want other's to know.

That seems to be the case now. In the games, when they discover a hint at who their Primarch might be, they destroy the information. I can't imagine they would do this unless their Primarch was a traitor.

Twisted Ferret
16-03-2012, 21:02
I don't, and neither does Kenzaburo. :)
I don't either. I would prefer it being a mystery to everyone, in fact - even the Emperor; makes it much more... well... mysterious. With all the difficulties finding the other Primarchs, it really lets the imagination run wild: what could possibly have taken these Primarchs out of the ken of immortal man? What would they have been like? Who can say... :)

The Red Pilgrim
16-03-2012, 21:44
I don't either. I would prefer it being a mystery to everyone, in fact - even the Emperor; makes it much more... well... mysterious. With all the difficulties finding the other Primarchs, it really lets the imagination run wild: what could possibly have taken these Primarchs out of the ken of immortal man? What would they have been like? Who can say... :)

You're aware that all of the Primarchs were reunited with the Emperor, and took control of their Legions at the beginning of the Crusade though, right?

Twisted Ferret
16-03-2012, 21:52
You're aware that all of the Primarchs were reunited with the Emperor, and took control of their Legions at the beginning of the Crusade though, right?
I don't think it's ever stated he was reunited with the Primarchs of the II and XI legions; they were created, and either something went wrong, or they were scattered with the rest of the Primarchs and simply never found. I think the only reference they get in the HH series is that bit showing the creation of all the Primarchs - they're certainly never spoken of by any of the other Primarchs or legions.

Lord Damocles
16-03-2012, 22:01
'Twenty Space Marine Legions took part in the Great Crusade. These twenty are known as the First Founding because they were the first Space Marines to be created. Each Legion was led by its own Primarch, the god-like being whose genetic structure formed the basis for the Legion’s gene-seed.'
Codex: Ultramarines, pg.7 (my empasis)

The Red Pilgrim
16-03-2012, 22:03
I don't think it's ever stated he was reunited with the Primarchs of the II and XI legions; they were created, and either something went wrong, or they were scattered with the rest of the Primarchs and simply never found. I think the only reference they get in the HH series is that bit showing the creation of all the Primarchs - they're certainly never spoken of by any of the other Primarchs or legions.

Not true. They're referred to by Magnus, Lorgar and Russ at various times during the Heresy novels. Not in any detail, no; but their fate seems to be known by both the Emperor and the remaining Primarchs. It's even implied that Russ had a hand in the censure of at least one of the Legions.

Then there's the mention in C:SM - which Lord Damocles has quoted.

Kenzaburo
16-03-2012, 23:39
there's even more - in the dark king/lightning tower audio dramas there's the part where dorn wanders through the palace on terra and arrives in a hall with the statues of the primarchs' statues. and the 2 missing ones are either covered or had been removed, i don't remember. malcador enters and he mentions dorn's lost brothers in passing and that something happened that cannot be spoken of again.

so, the missing primarchs have in a way featured in the HH series. now i keep my fingers crossed it stays in that realm of vagueness. seriously, guys, whatever we could get as a story about them will lead to disappointment for some/a lot. it's like the lost (tv show)finale - it was anticipated for so long, so many theories out there, that the actual end could only turn out to be disappointing for some. some mysteries are better left unsolved, even though it contradicts human nature. :)

Chem-Dog
17-03-2012, 00:14
Why don't they ask the AdMech? Geneseed tithes and genetic testing for purity that they do would seem to make identification easy and definitive.

It's not quite as black and white, the Blood Ravens' inception was something that took place somewhere round Late M36/Early M37.
If one were to assume they were indeed a fragment of the Thousand Sons they would have had to either laid low 5-6 thousand years or have gone under a number of alternate identities since the Heresy.
Then you have the simple fact that, over that period of time you can "acquire" an amount of Astartes geneseed by simply involving yourself in a conflicts where other Astartes are also at war, the occasional missing or vaporised body will happen, and presto a fresh non flagged set of geneseed to send to the Mechanicus for inspection.

You don't even need any of the modern lot to have Magnus' Geneseed at all, if he were the Primarch of the beginnings of the Chapter there's nothing to say the philosophies and "spiritual" fatherhood don't still continue even if they've long since switched over to another donor primogenitor.


You're aware that all of the Primarchs were reunited with the Emperor, and took control of their Legions at the beginning of the Crusade though, right?

Not strictly true, the two missing legions were already "missing" by the time the Emperor met up with Corax, so they weren't all there at the start.


Not true. They're referred to by Magnus, Lorgar and Russ at various times during the Heresy novels. Not in any detail, no; but their fate seems to be known by both the Emperor and the remaining Primarchs. It's even implied that Russ had a hand in the censure of at least one of the Legions.

It's explicitly stated that all the surviving Primarchs are aware of the occurrences that led to the legions and their Primarchs being "lost" and have sworn not to speak of the matter again, one even chides another for even contemplating breaking that oath.


So, in short, no I don't think the Blood Ravens are of the missing Legions, the argument for them being Thousand Sons in disguise isn't entirely disproved but I believe that it's been pooh-poohed by at least one of the writers.

The Red Pilgrim
17-03-2012, 00:15
there's even more - in the dark king/lightning tower audio dramas there's the part where dorn wanders through the palace on terra and arrives in a hall with the statues of the primarchs' statues. and the 2 missing ones are either covered or had been removed, i don't remember. malcador enters and he mentions dorn's lost brothers in passing and that something happened that cannot be spoken of again.

Good catch. Ya know, I always thought it strange that the MIA Primarchs have their likenesses missing; while the traitors have only been covered up with tarps, as if their rebellion is only temporary.

Lupe
17-03-2012, 00:26
There are many hints in the HH novels that the missing primarchs existed in the setting but something either went wrong with the legion, or the primarchs were lost in the warp. etc. etc.

Russ himself mentions them, and as he is considered the Emperor's "Executioner" it's possible he was called upon to do the deed.

[/speculation]

I'd also mention a further speculation, and a theory I personally subscribe to
The missing legions (and, by default the missing primarchs as well) are removed from all records since there is no longer any surviving element of them left - be it successor chapter, legion remnants or individual Astartes scattered throughout the Imperium. By contrast, the nine traitor legions are still present since they retain some degree of fighting strength (be it greater or lesser). As soon as another traitor legion would be confirmed as annihilated, its records would also be wiped. Until then, it would be counterproductive to remove the records of an active threat to the Imperium.

biggreengribbly
17-03-2012, 01:38
Then you have the simple fact that, over that period of time you can "acquire" an amount of Astartes geneseed by simply involving yourself in a conflicts where other Astartes are also at war, the occasional missing or vaporised body will happen, and presto a fresh non flagged set of geneseed to send to the Mechanicus for inspection.

Which strikes me as entirely in character considering many of the gear items in DoWII :shifty:

Blood Ravens? Bloody Magpies more like! :D

Lothlanathorian
17-03-2012, 02:53
I'd also mention a further speculation, and a theory I personally subscribe to
The missing legions (and, by default the missing primarchs as well) are removed from all records since there is no longer any surviving element of them left - be it successor chapter, legion remnants or individual Astartes scattered throughout the Imperium. By contrast, the nine traitor legions are still present since they retain some degree of fighting strength (be it greater or lesser). As soon as another traitor legion would be confirmed as annihilated, its records would also be wiped. Until then, it would be counterproductive to remove the records of an active threat to the Imperium.

That's essentially the same theory I found myself coming up with and sticking to when I got into 40K at the tail end of 2nd Edition. Whatever tragedy took place, there is nothing left of them so they have been removed from the records. Once the traitors would be annihilated, they, too, would be stricken. Although, if this isn't done with rebelling Chapters, it would poke some holes in the theory possibly. Also, iirc, the Big E is the one who deleted their records and, with him not exactly actively calling the shots, perhaps no one has thought to delete the records of any of the others?

randian
17-03-2012, 03:33
Good catch. Ya know, I always thought it strange that the MIA Primarchs have their likenesses missing; while the traitors have only been covered up with tarps, as if their rebellion is only temporary.
I've wondered what happened to that part of the Imperial Palace. Was it destroyed, make difficult to access by rubble, or just made off limits as the Emperor's personal chambers no doubt are. Has anybody seen in in 10,000 years? What wonders lie fallow in the Emperor's chambers?

Harwammer
17-03-2012, 10:21
Two ideas:

1) Could the hinted connections between Blood Ravens and Thousand Suns in fact be false/circumstantial evidence planted as part of a Tzeentchian plot to take control of a 'new' loyalist force?

Okay, that was a bit of an internet cliche, but it was a serious suggestion. Here's a less serious cliche based suggestion:

2) The Blood Ravens discovered their Primarch was not in fact Grandpapa Smurf. In their eternal shame they covered this up as at this moment the chapter realised they could never be Ultramarines?

MyNameDidntFit
17-03-2012, 11:01
Although, if this isn't done with rebelling Chapters, it would poke some holes in the theory possibly. Also, iirc, the Big E is the one who deleted their records and, with him not exactly actively calling the shots, perhaps no one has thought to delete the records of any of the others?

I believe, in Counter's Soul Drinkers novels he details the eradication of a lot of evidence of their existence. Though the reasoning behind this is that they apparently rebelled 'of their own free will' and such a thing could never be allowed to reach the waiting ears of the Imperium at large...

Still, interesting to consider.

Idaan
17-03-2012, 12:55
That's essentially the same theory I found myself coming up with and sticking to when I got into 40K at the tail end of 2nd Edition. Whatever tragedy took place, there is nothing left of them so they have been removed from the records. Once the traitors would be annihilated, they, too, would be stricken. Although, if this isn't done with rebelling Chapters, it would poke some holes in the theory possibly. Also, iirc, the Big E is the one who deleted their records and, with him not exactly actively calling the shots, perhaps no one has thought to delete the records of any of the others?
Well, the totalitarian state that is the modern Imperium needs to create a public enemy for the populace to oppose. It needs Chaos Traitors to exist, even if they don't. Compare and contrast to Emmanuel Goldstein in 1984, hunts for counter-revolutionaries in USSR long after all opposition was destroyed, and WMDs in Iraq.
On the other hand, keeping II and XI in public consciousness didn't benefit the Great Crusade-era Imperium, because its basic ideology of Mankind's manifest destiny already had good opponents in all kinds of Xenos. What's more, the existence of Traitor Marines might lessen the trust citizens had in Imperial Marines - if others betrayed, how could they trust those who appeared loyal. In fact, the knowledge that Marines don't always do what's in Imperium's best interest might have made it harder for Horus to garner Imperial Army and civilian support.

prowla
17-03-2012, 17:46
By the way, there's a bit in A Thousand Sons where Ahriman sees a strong glimpse of future, and one part of it are "Ravens of Blood". Not to mention Ahriman's fellowship is The Corvidae and their symbol a black raven's head.

There's been a lot of mentions in HH series about the two missing legions. Maybe they'll get themselves written, one day :)

Turrican1983
17-03-2012, 17:49
it has been widely speculated that the blood ravens might be descendants of the thousand sons. it has been hinted at in the games time and time again and even mcneill played with that idea in thousand sons - during prospero's destruction i think, there was a vision of a raven and whatnot.

In one of the HH short story compilations there is a Thousand Sons VS World Eaters piece set in the aftermath of Prospero Burns. Basically a Thousand Son makes his way beneath one of the great libraries and makes off with a psychic staff of some kind with a Raven clutching a drop of blood as the head of the staff.

Turrican1983
17-03-2012, 17:50
There's been a lot of mentions in HH series about the two missing legions. Maybe they'll get themselves written, one day :)

We know that one of the missing legions was wiped out by the Space Wolves. Can't remember which short story it's from though.

althathir
17-03-2012, 19:22
Honestly, I've been part of this hobby for years - and never seen anyone take advantage of this. Every DIY chapter I've encountered - in several different clubs - are always a successor of one of the current originals.

I'm starting to wonder if anyone ever did.

Didn't say it was well executed just that the intent was for people to be able to do it. I think people get quite abit of comfort out of having set rules/fluff from the existing chapters, and see the lack of rules and fluff as drawbacks.


I don't think it's ever stated he was reunited with the Primarchs of the II and XI legions; they were created, and either something went wrong, or they were scattered with the rest of the Primarchs and simply never found. I think the only reference they get in the HH series is that bit showing the creation of all the Primarchs - they're certainly never spoken of by any of the other Primarchs or legions.

They're mentioned abit, just not by name. Pretty sure its implied that the ultramarines absorbed quite a bit of one of the missing legions.


By the way, there's a bit in A Thousand Sons where Ahriman sees a strong glimpse of future, and one part of it are "Ravens of Blood". Not to mention Ahriman's fellowship is The Corvidae and their symbol a black raven's head.

There's been a lot of mentions in HH series about the two missing legions. Maybe they'll get themselves written, one day :)

I highly doubt it, the missing legions are interesting because we know nothing about them. Combine that with all the existing fractions that people want more stories about and I don't see them being expanded any time soon.

The Red Pilgrim
17-03-2012, 19:27
They're mentioned abit, just not by name. Pretty sure its implied that the ultramarines absorbed quite a bit of one of the missing legions.

That's an in-universe rumor; It's not true. Or at least it's not according to the author - Aaron Dembski-Bowden.

Lothlanathorian
17-03-2012, 20:07
Well, the totalitarian state that is the modern Imperium needs to create a public enemy for the populace to oppose. It needs Chaos Traitors to exist, even if they don't.


The only issue I have with this is that under the older fluff, the Imperium's general populace didn't know about Chaos Marines, the Horus Heresy or Chaos. The =][= hunted down and would annihilate whole civilizations to wipe out a Cult, Space Marines were mind wiped after fighting daemons and whole populations/IG forces were either put to death or rendered infertile and stuck in labor camps and worked to death if they had knowledge of The Great Enemy. This was one of the big points over the First War for Armageddon. The =][= did this to Imperial citizens and Logan Grimnar almost started a small war over that fact.

In modern fluff, though, it seems things aren't nearly quite so...serious.

blackcherry
18-03-2012, 09:47
I think thats something that started in BL books from the early 2000s onwards(the first word bearers novel for example, has basic pdf troopers having full knowledge of the traitor legions) and has leaked sideways into the design studio. Its a bit of a disconnect from the old fluff for me, but it seems to have kept to the BL section for the most part. I think the toning down of the punishments for encountering chaos more to do with the universe becoming a bit more black and white. Can't have the good guys doing things bad guys do. That makes them morally questionable .

Harwammer
18-03-2012, 17:27
Killing troops exposed to chaos wasn't punishment, it was insurance. The Imperium believes allowing such people to live causes an unacceptable risk of daemonic insurrection.

Phunting
19-03-2012, 01:39
I think the toning down of the punishments for encountering chaos more to do with the universe becoming a bit more black and white. Can't have the good guys doing things bad guys do. That makes them morally questionable .As much as I hate to disagree with some good old 'it was better in my day' logic, I don't really see it. The Imperium is still constantly morally questionable, this has been reinforced time and time again. The 'exterminate everything' policy was, to be fair, a bit silly and utterly impractical. The idea that the Imperium was continually exterminating planets, guard regiments, even marine chapters due to chaos contact is an utterly unsustainable position; all GW have done in toning this down is make Imperial policy a little less simplistic which, IMHO, makes them less, not more, black and white.

MyNameDidntFit
19-03-2012, 03:56
Agreed with the above. The Imperium is huge, but obliterating any and all forces that came into contact with Chaos is unsustainable.

As for black and white... I really think that you would be hard pressed to justify calling any faction in 40k cut and dry 'good' or 'evil' with an unbiased, objective viewpoint.

randian
19-03-2012, 06:08
I really think that you would be hard pressed to justify calling any faction in 40k cut and dry 'good' or 'evil' with an unbiased, objective viewpoint.
What could you possibly call "good" about Chaos?

MyNameDidntFit
19-03-2012, 06:37
I never said all factions were 'good', rather that they are not fitted to cookie-cutter moulds of black and white perceptions. Chaos is perpetually scheming to further itself at the cost of all others, but of which faction can you honestly say this is not true?

By the standard upheld in the grim darkness of the far future, Chaos is no more evil than the Imperium--seeking it's own survival and the destruction of all others, no matter the cost to the galaxy at large.

Lord-Caerolion
19-03-2012, 06:42
What could you possibly call "good" about Chaos?

Freedom from the totalitarian, tyrannical Imperium of Man? The power to make your own destiny, rather than be shackled to your birth-world in an existance of pure tedium? The power to strike back at the universe, rather than meekly accept your fate?

Corbeau
20-03-2012, 02:46
Gav Thorpe made it quite clear at BLL during the HH seminar that the HH authors will not be talking about the lost primarchs period, as in offering any revelations or anything. This was due to the fact that the hints so far (ATS, TFH, Rebirth) have been pretty heavy-handed and there is a danger of ruining the charm of the whole idea. The other panelists pretty much nodded :-)

Thank goodness for that :)

Corbeau
20-03-2012, 02:48
I guess that's down to interpretation, I took as as much confirmation as was needed.

The fact that he has red power armour with a raven's head on the shoulder pad searching for lost arcane items and swears to form a brotherhood of fellow TS marines and that their watch words would be "knowledge is power" was as good as saying "we will now be called the Blood Ravens". :)

But ok, it doesn't explicitly say that, but I didn't feel it needed to.

If that's what it says that is pretty much explicit isn't it lol

Phunting
21-03-2012, 23:11
What could you possibly call "good" about Chaos?As others have said, it's not about chaos as 'good', but just a different shade of grey. I acknowledge that unfortunately quite a few writers paint chaos as a one dimensional spiky cliche, but if we're talking about changes over time I'd say modern writers in showing sympathetic falling to chaos in the HH and in Black Crusade have done more than ever before to bring depth to the stereotype.

Indeed most of the pre-Imperial 'chaotic' societies we've seen in the HH (Sarosh [from DofA], Colchis, and possibly Cadia spring to mind) seem much more stable and less oppressive than the Imperium does. I would suggest that a case could be made that it is Imperial dogma that makes chaos as nasty as it appears, not chaos itself. All of the worst chaotic societies we see are, after all post-Imperial. The organically grown chaos societies generally seem much more moderate.

The rebel governors who are used to a society of brutalism and subjugation within the Imperium may well start skinning people alive as soon as they are given the freedom of chaos. But is this due to chaos itself, or is it analogous to keeping someone imprisoned and subjected to brutal violence their entire lives and then when they reciprocate violent acts upon gaining freedom, claiming 'you see, we should never give people freedom' as the answer?

Chrisb3
21-03-2012, 23:34
It's probally because Slaanesh quite likes the idea of skinning people alive and thinks that you should give it a try to see how it feels.

Although Khorne would be outraged at the waste of killing time and Tzeetch would say "what skin?". So they aren't all bad.

@Nyxium
08-04-2012, 21:04
I was under the understanding that Blood ravens were from the Word Bearers from Dawn of War: Dark Crusade or at least they knew the origins of the Blood ravens.

Thousand sons sounds about right though.

EDIT:

Freedom from the totalitarian, tyrannical Imperium of Man? The power to make your own destiny, rather than be shackled to your birth-world in an existance of pure tedium? The power to strike back at the universe, rather than meekly accept your fate?

Also you have to remember all they have heard or seen is imperial propaganda and stories of great brutal psychopaths so when they go rogue i would speculate that with the new freedom their psyche attributes the brutalism and appalling acts of torture and grotesque things as being "Chaos" so they may carry it out in what they believe is "Worshiping the chaos gods".

Organic Chaos societies may have festivals like the old celtic festival(for got its name) where men and woman were free from marriage and have intercourse with any one they wished and if the woman fell pregnant it would be the married couple's child. That would be considered worshiping Slaanesh. Just as Ritual combat between warriors for positions of 'head of the hunt' or something similar. Nurgle could be asking for deliverance from sickness of family members so they sacrifice animals and array them in "Beautiful" shrines.

The Warmaster
10-04-2012, 05:54
It's not quite as black and white, the Blood Ravens' inception was something that took place somewhere round Late M36/Early M37.

Not necessarily. Their records only go back that far (it's been said that almost all their records from before then have been destroyed). The chapter itself seems to be aware that its founding was earlier.

I seem to remember a reference to them operating as far back as M32, perhaps in a discussion of one of the DoW books? (I've only read extracts, so I can't comment on the books themselves.)


That's an in-universe rumor; It's not true. Or at least it's not according to the author - Aaron Dembski-Bowden.

Like the Blood Ravens being founded from the TS, I thought Aaron said that the Ultras assimilating the lost Legions is just, as far as we can tell, a rumour, but didn't actually give a definitive answer either way. As for both them and the Blood Ravens-TS link, a lot of people seem to think his own doubts about the truth of these two claims are Word of God, which he has denied.

Lord-Caerolion
10-04-2012, 12:08
I thought Aaron said that the Ultras assimilating the lost Legions is just, as far as we can tell, a rumour, but didn't actually give a definitive answer either way.

No, he was specific, he stated that if he knew people would take it as truth rather than malicious rumour, he wouldn't have included the lines. The Ultramarines never absorbed any Lost Legionnaires. Their large numbers were solely due to their recruitment practices, nothing more.

Dhurrin
10-04-2012, 23:45
No, he was specific, he stated that if he knew people would take it as truth rather than malicious rumour, he wouldn't have included the lines. The Ultramarines never absorbed any Lost Legionnaires. Their large numbers were solely due to their recruitment practices, nothing more.

While it's true that he said that was his intention, any other author could take that "rumour" and run with it now. What will we say then? It doesn't really matter what he intended, it matters what he wrote... And remember, the only people who knows it was suppose to be nothing are those who visit these threads/forums. There are potentially thousands of fans/readers who do not know it and take that rumour as another tidbit of lost legion info. You cannot exclude their reality of the books simply because they do not follow the same forums as us and neither should ADB. If he didn't mean it, he shouldn't have written it. He knew that the 40k fanbase would jump on any info about the lost legion like a fat kid on a donut.

Lothlanathorian
11-04-2012, 03:13
He's also stated on here that the HH authors have been told to cut waaay back on talking about the two missing Legions, so, it's probably a safe bet that no one is going to pick it up and run with it.

Hawkkf
11-04-2012, 03:26
The Blood Ravens being of the Thousand Sons gene seed is ok. They left it with heavy hints and room for speculation. I think its one of the few things they have left enough mystery around to stay interesting. The major down side is that a lot of people use it as precedent to say thier fan created chapter is a loyalist remnant of a chaos legion as well. In my opinion, it works better if the Blood Ravens are the glaring exception and not the rule.

I could even reason it out that a few of the loyalist TS arrive back after the heresy and are ushered before one of the remaining Primarchs. I would expect that there would be few to no psykers in the force, just a bunch of marines intent on not becoming a suit of armor for eternity. If they could prove thier loyalty to the Empereror and renounce all ties to Magnus, then a chapter with a potential for a large number of psykers could have been a welcome force. I think a Primarch, or even Guilliman who was a High Lord as well, would be able to erase and reset the Chapter well enough that no one short of the High Lords could ever hope to figure it out. All of this is conjecture and part of the charm and mystery of the Blood Ravens.

jareddm3
11-04-2012, 03:54
I could even reason it out that a few of the loyalist TS arrive back after the heresy and are ushered before one of the remaining Primarchs. I would expect that there would be few to no psykers in the force, just a bunch of marines intent on not becoming a suit of armor for eternity. If they could prove thier loyalty to the Empereror and renounce all ties to Magnus, then a chapter with a potential for a large number of psykers could have been a welcome force. I think a Primarch, or even Guilliman who was a High Lord as well, would be able to erase and reset the Chapter well enough that no one short of the High Lords could ever hope to figure it out. All of this is conjecture and part of the charm and mystery of the Blood Ravens.

Just a little note. All Thousand Sons were psykers. It's what separated them from other legions.

Dhurrin
11-04-2012, 04:50
Just a little note. All Thousand Sons were psykers. It's what separated them from other legions.

Yes but not all of them had significant psychic ability. Some were fairly low on the psychic scale.

Grimbad
11-04-2012, 05:17
There were these thousand sons and they wore red and were called corvidae and had a raven symbol
The Raven Guard, surprisingly, have a lot of overt references to ravens. Once one of them said "nevermore". Ravens, right? The blood angels have 'blood' in their name and wear red, and they like to kill things, too! It can't be a coincidence.
Really, people said that before this whole Thousand Sons Successor thing was suggested, and it was just as silly.


And one of them said knowledge is power
Something that Thousand Sons might be apt to say because they know with certainty that gathering knowledge of their unique, legion-wide psychic abilities will literally give them power over the material universe, and which the Blood Ravens say because they don't know anything about their past at all but would very much like to?

If the Blood Ravens are directly founded by those rogue Thousand Sons, it would take such a horribly contrived chain of events for them not to be eradicated almost immediately.
If on the other hand the Blood Ravens are successors to the Thousand Sons by, for example, Cursed Founding gene-seed tampering (the only case in which use of traitor gene-seed has actually been hinted at, and you'll notice that the Minotaurs these days have really toned down the Loyalist World Eaters theme in favor of Space Spartans), then the ravens, the color of the armor, the catchphrases become meaningless, because they can't possibly know about those.

Craftworld
11-04-2012, 05:24
The Raven Guard, surprisingly, have a lot of overt references to ravens. Once one of them said "nevermore". Ravens, right? The blood angels have 'blood' in their name and wear red, and they like to kill things, too! It can't be a coincidence.
Really, people said that before this whole Thousand Sons Successor thing was suggested, and it was just as silly.


Something that Thousand Sons might be apt to say because they know with certainty that gathering knowledge of their unique, legion-wide psychic abilities will literally give them power over the material universe, and which the Blood Ravens say because they don't know anything about their past at all but would very much like to?

If the Blood Ravens are directly founded by those rogue Thousand Sons, it would take such a horribly contrived chain of events for them not to be eradicated almost immediately.
If on the other hand the Blood Ravens are successors to the Thousand Sons by, for example, Cursed Founding gene-seed tampering (the only case in which use of traitor gene-seed has actually been hinted at, and you'll notice that the Minotaurs these days have really toned down the Loyalist World Eaters theme in favor of Space Spartans), then the ravens, the color of the armor, the catchphrases become meaningless, because they can't possibly know about those.

You're way behind the times, Grimbad. The mystery is loooong dead.

It's been forced down our throats - via Black Library - that they're Thousand Son survivors who were sent away before the Wolves invasion. Contrived or not, that's all she wrote.

Lord-Caerolion
11-04-2012, 06:45
While it's true that he said that was his intention, any other author could take that "rumour" and run with it now. What will we say then? It doesn't really matter what he intended, it matters what he wrote... And remember, the only people who knows it was suppose to be nothing are those who visit these threads/forums. There are potentially thousands of fans/readers who do not know it and take that rumour as another tidbit of lost legion info. You cannot exclude their reality of the books simply because they do not follow the same forums as us and neither should ADB. If he didn't mean it, he shouldn't have written it. He knew that the 40k fanbase would jump on any info about the lost legion like a fat kid on a donut.

Well, if someone wants to jump all over something and proclaim it as absolute truth, despite being only gossip between two low-ranking Astartes from a Legion that hates the Ultramarines, then let them. Just because something's included in a book, doesn't make it true.

Skits
11-04-2012, 09:28
Just a little note. All Thousand Sons were psykers. It's what separated them from other legions.
Where does it say that every single Thousand Son was a psyker? If there were that many psykers, then there wouldn't be so many - or even ANY - Rubricae. From the Chaos 'dex: "... their battle brethren whose psychic powers had been slight or non-existent were permanently changed". Note that bolded part. Non-existent. So no, not every Thousand Son was a psyker. There WERE Thousand Sons that weren't psykers in any way, shape or form.

The Thousand Sons just had a comparatively high number of psykers in their ranks. And the fluff tends to focus on the Sons that have psychic powers 'cause that's what's expected, and they tend to be "more interesting" (ie. more capable of doing interesting stuff) characters to write about. Though I would love to see a pre-Heresy story about a Son who isn't one of the psykers, and how he gets along with the rest of the Legion, heh. Would there be resentment? Would he just consider it status quo? That could be interesting.

/ramble

Idaan
11-04-2012, 11:58
Just a little note. All Thousand Sons were psykers. It's what separated them from other legions.
They were all sorcerers. You don't have to be a psyker to be a sorcerer.

Swordsman
11-04-2012, 23:45
They were all sorcerers. You don't have to be a psyker to be a sorcerer.

Mind citing the source for that?

shadowhawk2008
12-04-2012, 06:00
Psykers are a natural occurence. You are born as a psyker, you can't become one. Sorcerors are the opposite. Anybody can become a sorceror if they so wish. You just need to mumble a few words and blam.

Simplistic explanation I know.

Talking of course about people like Erebus, Kor Phaeron and Xaphen compared to those like Calas Typhon and Tylos Rubio here.

Swordsman
12-04-2012, 06:25
Psykers are a natural occurence. You are born as a psyker, you can't become one. Sorcerors are the opposite. Anybody can become a sorceror if they so wish. You just need to mumble a few words and blam.

Simplistic explanation I know.

Talking of course about people like Erebus, Kor Phaeron and Xaphen compared to those like Calas Typhon and Tylos Rubio here.

No, I meant the claim that they were all Sorcerers pre-Heresy. I've never seen it, and it doesn't match up with A Thousand Sons.

Dhurrin
12-04-2012, 21:07
No, I meant the claim that they were all Sorcerers pre-Heresy. I've never seen it, and it doesn't match up with A Thousand Sons.

One can argue their use and summoning of the Tutelaries count as sorcery.

Hadrun
12-04-2012, 22:28
The Rubric of Ahriman ~

The spell transformed the vast majority of the Chaos Space Marines of the Legion into mindless, undead spectres whose souls are trapped within their ancient suits of Power Armour.

They summoned an immense storm of arcane power that engulfed the Planet of the Sorcerers, and from within came bolts of lightning that struck down any of the Thousand Sons who did not possess psychic abilities

Swordsman
12-04-2012, 23:08
One can argue their use and summoning of the Tutelaries count as sorcery.

What about the company left behind to recruit and train on Prospero? They specifically mention that the powers that are being used against the Space Wolves are like none they've encountered - or mastered.

If they're all sorcerers, why are some completely in the dark regarding sorcery? :confused:

Or what about the occult ritual Magnus uses to reach Terra? It leaves Ahriman in awe and makes him uncomfortable. It's blatantly sorcery. Yet Ahriman seems out of the loop, and he's the head-Librarian.

shadowhawk2008
13-04-2012, 06:10
Magnus knows more about sorcery than Ahriman knows... is that so impossible? Ahriman may be the Chief Librarian/First Captain of the legion but Magnus is a Primarch, a psyker whose entire life has been spent in psykery/sorcery.

MyNameDidntFit
13-04-2012, 11:18
Not all TS were sorcerers.
Not all sorcerers were psykers.
Not all psykers knew the exact nature of what they were doing.
Not even Magnus the Red fully understood the folly of the witch.

This pretty well explains the disparity in knowledge between various individuals/groups of TS, I think.

Idaan
13-04-2012, 15:28
I'm fairly sure that all Thousand Sons were initiated into one of Prospero's cults, and that all had Tutelaries. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

randian
13-04-2012, 22:31
I'm fairly sure that all Thousand Sons were initiated into one of Prospero's cults, and that all had Tutelaries. Correct me if I'm wrong though.
All the cults may have had tutelaries, but it is certain not all the Thousand Sons did. A non-psyker TS would not have had a tutelary.

Swordsman
14-04-2012, 00:41
Magnus knows more about sorcery than Ahriman knows... is that so impossible? Ahriman may be the Chief Librarian/First Captain of the legion but Magnus is a Primarch, a psyker whose entire life has been spent in psykery/sorcery.

Ahriman was uncomfortable with the ritual being performed. Sorcery unnerved him is my point.

Regardless of his mastery level, it seems a bit odd to be so unfamiliar with sorcery as a sorcerer..


I'm fairly sure that all Thousand Sons were initiated into one of Prospero's cults, and that all had Tutelaries. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Were the cult houses sorcerous cabals - and not just houses of psychic specialization?

Skits
14-04-2012, 04:32
The impression I got was that only the higher ranked/more powerful psykers forged a connection with a tutelary.

So, not all Sons were psykers, but all Sons who WERE psykers belonged to one of the five cults. However, not all psykers had Tutelaries.

Spider-pope
15-04-2012, 13:11
I think thats something that started in BL books from the early 2000s onwards(the first word bearers novel for example, has basic pdf troopers having full knowledge of the traitor legions) and has leaked sideways into the design studio. Its a bit of a disconnect from the old fluff for me, but it seems to have kept to the BL section for the most part. I think the toning down of the punishments for encountering chaos more to do with the universe becoming a bit more black and white. Can't have the good guys doing things bad guys do. That makes them morally questionable .

I would strongly argue that it's less due to a desire to make the Imperium more heroic, and more to do with the fact its bloomin' hard to write a series of books about a set group of characters if they have their minds wiped every time they face Chaos and/or are executed. Gaunt's Ghosts for example would have ended after the first short story as the Imperium purged the remnants of a Regiment that was tainted by a Chaos attack during its founding. Uriel Ventris would have been left a mindblank automaton requiring retraining at the end of the fourth Ultramarines novel. Even the great Imperial Hero Ciaphas Cain would have likely spent most of his life toiling away in a concentration camp after the things he's witnessed.

shadowhawk2008
15-04-2012, 13:33
Exactly. That often gets lost in translation. And I'd say that Uriel and his battle-brothers would have been wiped after the short story Chains of Command in which they fight the Night Lords. But yeah.

chriscrowing
16-04-2012, 10:07
NO. The two Legions extirpated pre-Heresy are dead, gone and no-one talks of it. It's alluded to a whole lot in the HH books but with the common thread that even amongst the Primarchs, the two that had been expunged are not even talked of.

The original intent was for hobbyists to create their own chapters, but as the hobby expanded this was covered by the notion of more foundings, succesor chapters etc. Basically, create your own chapter if you want, but you don't get a Primarch - unless you tie your successor to a specific 'original' Legion. There are no 'new' Primarchs.