PDA

View Full Version : Don't hate me! :p



Getifa Ubazza
18-03-2012, 13:18
I was in a second hand store the other day and there sitting on the shelf was the complete unabridged LotR for 99p. I had to look again to make sure I wasn't dreaming. As you can imagine, I grabbed the precious with my sweaty strangling hands and would not lets it go until it was payed for and I gots it away. I have already read the first 2 books in just 3 days (The Fellowship of the Ring) and look forward to reading the other 4.

I'm not going to moan about the films leaving out all the stuff with Tom Bombadil, even if it would not have cost much more money to do, But now seriously wished they had made 6 movies instead of 3.

I have never read LotR before and always thought they would be very difficult to read. I am not the smartest of men and thought it would be above me. That probably has more to do with my dealings with Wargamers through the years, than LotR itself though. I was so pleased to find that my fears were completely unfounded and the books are wonderfully written and flow with such ease that even a simple soul, such as myself can understand and follow the story very easily. If you get my meaning?

So in short, I think it has to be the best book I have ever read, by miles. I just can't believe I waited so long to read these amazing books. I suspect once I finish reading it, I will start reading it all over again. :D

Greendragon
18-03-2012, 20:28
DAMN! That kind of makes me sad in a way, just 99p for the lot? What condition were they in?

I always thought that the LOTR series was worth a little more than that, being among the best books of all time, hopefully this is a one off and the price of LOTR books everywhere isn't drastically low - bringing the whole franchise down yet further as wargamers turn away from Games Workshops share of the market.

ForgottenLore
18-03-2012, 21:41
The thing is that the books are SOOO popular, and have been in print for so long that there is a huge supply, so naturally the price is going to be pretty low on used copies.

Not generally THAT low, but low.

And if you regret all the Tom Bombadil stuff getting cut out, wait till you read the stuff that got cut from the end of return of the king.

Greendragon
18-03-2012, 22:10
mouth of sauron... growl growl growl. I don't understand why they need to make so many changes

Getifa Ubazza
19-03-2012, 10:02
DAMN! That kind of makes me sad in a way, just 99p for the lot? What condition were they in?

I always thought that the LOTR series was worth a little more than that, being among the best books of all time, hopefully this is a one off and the price of LOTR books everywhere isn't drastically low - bringing the whole franchise down yet further as wargamers turn away from Games Workshops share of the market. The one I got is the 1995, one volume edition from Harper Collins, with Gandalf on the cover walking along a grass path in the rain. The condition is pretty good. The book is complete, the cover is uncracked. one small 1cm corner has come off the bottom back cover and there looks like it has been up someones loft for a few years as it looks like it has been exposed to damp, But there is no damp stains at all other than some pinkness on the bottom of some of the last few pages.

It even has a history of printings of the book and a great foreword to the second edition and prologue Concerning Hobbits, and other matters.


The thing is that the books are SOOO popular, and have been in print for so long that there is a huge supply, so naturally the price is going to be pretty low on used copies.

Not generally THAT low, but low.

And if you regret all the Tom Bombadil stuff getting cut out, wait till you read the stuff that got cut from the end of return of the king.I heard about that and look forward to reading the proper story. Looking forward very much to The Scouring of the Shire.

All the books were 99p, so it wasn't unusually priced in that store. I love it, But might still get myself a new copy, when I get the Hobbit too.


mouth of sauron... growl growl growl. I don't understand why they need to make so many changesI noticed though that Frodo is a lot braver in the books, than he is in the films. In the films he seems to have a bit of a victim mentality. In the book he has some :eek::eek:'s Why did they change the Goblin captain that attacked Frodo in Balins Tomb into a Cave Troll? The Cave Troll in the book only managed to open the door before he was "Stung" by Frodo. :evilgrin:

Greendragon
19-03-2012, 10:11
If you're new to the books, I would recommend the Silmarillion after you've read the hobbit and all the fun appendix stories related to the third age. Silmarillion takes it up another scale, and as a big fan of elves I was pleased to find the book full of the pointy eared fellas. Then there is the side story The Tale of Hurin (or the Children of Hurin) which was also another fantastic read. In fact I might go get that last one out and read it again just to hear about how Hurin and his buddy killed so many orcs and goblins that they ended up fighting atop a mountain of corpses =D

Getifa Ubazza
19-03-2012, 10:27
If you're new to the books, I would recommend the Silmarillion after you've read the hobbit and all the fun appendix stories related to the third age. Silmarillion takes it up another scale, and as a big fan of elves I was pleased to find the book full of the pointy eared fellas. Then there is the side story The Tale of Hurin (or the Children of Hurin) which was also another fantastic read. In fact I might go get that last one out and read it again just to hear about how Hurin and his buddy killed so many orcs and goblins that they ended up fighting atop a mountain of corpses =DOh yeah! Sorry forgot about Silmarillion. I plan on getting that too.

The only problem I have with the book is it's making me want to buy more models. Everytime I read about a fight or a character I want it, so I can play out the story on the table. The book might only have cost me 99p, But suspect it's going to end up costing me a fortune.

Greendragon
19-03-2012, 10:34
You had to say it didn't you XD it is now my mission to add a Hurin and Turin model to my collection and have them fight an army of orcs, you are quite right. Fantastic stories! I think the famous battle from the silmarillion between Melkor and Feanor (Sauron's master and one of the most powerful elves in history) would itself make a very interesting roll-off.

I love it when I hear people passionate about the hobby like yourself, wanting to purchase certain characters just to play out the scenarios they've read about. Its what the game is all about! :) Can't wait to get my store open and start introducing more people like yourself to hobbies and scenarios... ah, to spend my whole weeks playing wargaming

Getifa Ubazza
19-03-2012, 11:00
You had to say it didn't you XD it is now my mission to add a Hurin and Turin model to my collection and have them fight an army of orcs, you are quite right. Fantastic stories! I think the famous battle from the silmarillion between Melkor and Feanor (Sauron's master and one of the most powerful elves in history) would itself make a very interesting roll-off.

I love it when I hear people passionate about the hobby like yourself, wanting to purchase certain characters just to play out the scenarios they've read about. Its what the game is all about! :) Can't wait to get my store open and start introducing more people like yourself to hobbies and scenarios... ah, to spend my whole weeks playing wargaming

Would be interesting to see a film of the Silmarillion, But how would they link the stories?

I love getting swept up into the story and seeing it come alive on the table top. Winning games just isn't something I care about, unless it helps make the story playing out on the table more exciting.

To spend my whole week playing games would be wonderful. I might have to take a little holiday to East Devon. I hear there might be a store opening down there with a really cool Owner. :D Could you imagine what you could do with a whole week of games? To completely immerse yourself into the LotR's world and to do so in a place like Devon would be amazing. Your going to be a very lucky man.

Greendragon
19-03-2012, 22:53
Why thank you! I would like to say Scotland looks like a lovely place to go, but damn I've heard its cold haha. In fairness I'll probably be working hard processing orders (one can hope!) XD but more gaming and painting is certainly going to be in order, and I can't wait!

I wonder if we would ever see any 4th age (after ROTK) models or anything of the like? I have a 4th age PDF supplement book that an internet community has put together, but it requires heavy conversion of models to create some of the 4th age characters - they based all their stuff on some of the smaller apendix stories.

You make a good point, when they inevitably do move on to the silmarillion films its will be interesting to see how the script pans out and links it all together and how many films they split the stories up to

Peregrin
20-03-2012, 12:49
I don't think they'd be able to do a true Silmarillion movie.
I would expect they would be more likely to take a section of the book and develop a small part of it into a Hollywood script.
Something like what Chris Tolkien had published in the Children of Hurin novel.

The problem with Silmarillion is that there is no central character or even a central group of characters. It spans several generations of men and elves. It might be possible to do a general survey of the histories, highlighting and developing specific events, using a single immortal character as the focal point for the viewers, as well.
I'm wondering if it wouldn't make a better TV series though. Have an episode leading up to an event and a couple of episodes that resolve said event, while at the same time developing side stories that lead into the next episode, etc. You'd have to pick a Glorfindel or Gil Galad type of character who's been around for a long time. They'd seen more things in Middle Earth than the Istari did. Maybe an other option is to move the TV series through the life of Feanor and then transition to the generations that followed.

I'm not sure that Hollywood would want to put the effort in to developing the Silmarillion, though.

Getifa Ubazza
22-03-2012, 15:58
I don't think they'd be able to do a true Silmarillion movie.
I would expect they would be more likely to take a section of the book and develop a small part of it into a Hollywood script.
Something like what Chris Tolkien had published in the Children of Hurin novel.

The problem with Silmarillion is that there is no central character or even a central group of characters. It spans several generations of men and elves. It might be possible to do a general survey of the histories, highlighting and developing specific events, using a single immortal character as the focal point for the viewers, as well.
I'm wondering if it wouldn't make a better TV series though. Have an episode leading up to an event and a couple of episodes that resolve said event, while at the same time developing side stories that lead into the next episode, etc. You'd have to pick a Glorfindel or Gil Galad type of character who's been around for a long time. They'd seen more things in Middle Earth than the Istari did. Maybe an other option is to move the TV series through the life of Feanor and then transition to the generations that followed.

I'm not sure that Hollywood would want to put the effort in to developing the Silmarillion, though.I totally agree that it would be unlikely hollywood would make a Silmarillion movie.

I rememer in the 80's they did movies where 3 characters would sit around and chat about their lives. I'm thinking of Creepshow and a few others, But agree that it's not something hollywood would do these days. Although it would be awesome if they did. A TV series would be good, But couldn't match the budget needed to make the stories truely come to life. Star Trek, Next Generation I believe cost $1m per episode, But I doubt even $1m per episode would be enough to give The Silmarillion it's due.

Just ordered the Hobbit and Silmarillion from ebay. They were only 99p each, so couldn't resist. :D

Gorbad Ironclaw
23-03-2012, 09:39
If you're new to the books, I would recommend the Silmarillion

I wouldn't. I used to be a massive LotR fan, read it maybe a dozen times but Silmarillion to me was always just dreadfully boring. It's certainly not required reading and I think you have to have a special interest to find worth the time.

Anyway, while Tom Bombadil might not have been that expensive to do, he also wouldn't really have added anything to the film. Taking him out have absolutely no impact on the story so on balance it's probably the better choice. More manageable film, less confusion about who that weird guy was and more budget to spend on other things. I certainly don't agree with all the changes the film made, they cut out some of my favourite bits I was really looking forward to seeing but overall I think they did a good job, especially with the first one. The Two Towers not so much, but still. They certainly managed to tell the story and do it well.

In some ways I actually think the films manages to tell the story better. The books could have done with some ruthless editing so it doesn't feel as if it's an epic fantasy story trying to get out from under the weight of the poetry collection, the travel guide and the history book.

Getifa Ubazza
23-03-2012, 12:51
I wouldn't. I used to be a massive LotR fan, read it maybe a dozen times but Silmarillion to me was always just dreadfully boring. It's certainly not required reading and I think you have to have a special interest to find worth the time.

Anyway, while Tom Bombadil might not have been that expensive to do, he also wouldn't really have added anything to the film. Taking him out have absolutely no impact on the story so on balance it's probably the better choice. More manageable film, less confusion about who that weird guy was and more budget to spend on other things. I certainly don't agree with all the changes the film made, they cut out some of my favourite bits I was really looking forward to seeing but overall I think they did a good job, especially with the first one. The Two Towers not so much, but still. They certainly managed to tell the story and do it well.

In some ways I actually think the films manages to tell the story better. The books could have done with some ruthless editing so it doesn't feel as if it's an epic fantasy story trying to get out from under the weight of the poetry collection, the travel guide and the history book.

Just to say. I love the films and the book. But for differant reasons. Yes, the movies cut some parts of the book and changed other parts and I was a little disappointed, But the films are wonderful in their own right and also inspire my hobby. The book just gave me even more to think about and imagine.

I'm looking forward to reading both The Hobbit and Silmarillion. If the Silmarillion is boring to read, it will probably be a one time read, But still worth a read for being part of the Middle Earth story. I'm particularly looking forward to reading the story of Beren and Luthien.

Peregrin
23-03-2012, 15:56
I think an ambitious studio could probably develop some of the Silmarillion stories (like the Children of Hurin, fall of Gondolin, etc.) much the way Game of Thrones is being done right now. It wouldn't have a Peter Jackson budget, but it would still be viable.
You would have to treat it like a collection of stories and pick and choose what to develop, rather than trying to move through it chronologically.

Getifa Ubazza
23-03-2012, 16:04
I think an ambitious studio could probably develop some of the Silmarillion stories (like the Children of Hurin, fall of Gondolin, etc.) much the way Game of Thrones is being done right now. It wouldn't have a Peter Jackson budget, but it would still be viable.
You would have to treat it like a collection of stories and pick and choose what to develop, rather than trying to move through it chronologically.

Good point Peregrin. Game of Thrones was a great series and I'm looking forward to the next series. To do The Silmarillion like that would work very well.

Karak Norn Clansman
23-03-2012, 16:59
99 p? Lucky git. ;)

The only great complaint I have about the Lotr movies must be the Return of the King, which could have had very much more background content without adding more than about ten minutes to the movie. The book is definitely the best of the trilogy (Tolkien as an author truly shine at the battle for Pelennor fields), and part of this quality is the sheer greatness that is lent toward the pivotal battle outside Minas Tirith. There should have been Dol Amroth knights and all other sorts of fiefdom troops marching to Minas Tirith, not just the dull silver-grey city soldiers.

Also, where were the men of the east and south in Sauron's armies? We saw both Haradrim and Easterlings march toward the Black Gate in the Two Towers, yet only the oliphants make it to the battlefield. Were the human infantry and cavalry forces eaten by orcs whilst camping in Mordor? :D This is a pity, since the clash between the Haradrim and Rohirrim riders was one of the best pieces of text Tolkien ever wrote, even when considering the fall of Gondolin. Having seen GW's good attempt at the men of Khand, I also miss those in the movie, but they would strictly speaking not have been necessary although I of course would have liked to see an cavalcade of orcish and human troops besieging Minas Tirith. Well, at least GW understand that there is some demand for all those "peripheral" parts of Lotr, including dwarves and goblins. A pity about the prices, though.

Greendragon
23-03-2012, 18:03
Couldn't agree more with the poster above me - although this is now going to veer off into a book vs films thread, its still a great talking point. I was confused and even said WTF when the battle finished, they made a big point of showing us Easterlings arriving at Mordor, yet not in the battle! Not even when Frodo and Sam made their way through Mordor were there any. And I was really looking forward to all the forces showing up to Minas Tirith, Dwarf warriors/Dol Amroth/Wildmen warbands. While the film did a great job depicting the battle, the book depicts it as even bigger than that.

On a side note - I wonder if any cinemas around here are going to show the three films again before the Hobbit premieres like they did with twilight etc

Peregrin
23-03-2012, 19:39
I'm a fan of the books over the movies. That said, I'd love to see the extended editions in theatre!

Denny
24-03-2012, 19:18
In some ways I actually think the films manages to tell the story better. The books could have done with some ruthless editing so it doesn't feel as if it's an epic fantasy story trying to get out from under the weight of the poetry collection, the travel guide and the history book.

I agree; I was so happy when I first watched The Fellowship and realised Tom Bombadil had been cut; that guy alone almost killed the books for me . . .

The bearded one
26-03-2012, 19:33
Also, where were the men of the east and south in Sauron's armies? We saw both Haradrim and Easterlings march toward the Black Gate in the Two Towers, yet only the oliphants make it to the battlefield. Were the human infantry and cavalry forces eaten by orcs whilst camping in Mordor? :D This is a pity, since the clash between the Haradrim and Rohirrim riders was one of the best pieces of text Tolkien ever wrote, even when considering the fall of Gondolin.

You can spot some easterlings here and there in the background during the siege of Minas Tirith.

Greendragon
26-03-2012, 20:57
you are correct bearded one, a google search brings us this;

http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/13284.jpg

I think in the extended edition there are also a few dead Easterlings lying around after the battle.

Getifa Ubazza
27-03-2012, 17:02
Ok, finished the whole book last night and loved all of it. I now don't mind the stuff that was cut for the movies, as I feel the extra stuff in the book would have slowed the movies down too much and taken away from the flow a bit.

The two parts that I originally wanted in the films that were not in them was the Tom Bombadil and Scouring of the Shire parts, But having now fully read the book, I'm glad they were cut. The Scouring of the Shire just felt like an old guy being angry about how the world around him was changing and wasn't as much fun to read as I thought it would be. Now having read the whole book, I can see that the Tom Bombadil part would have been pretty pointless in the film, But was wonderful in the book.

Peregrin
27-03-2012, 18:58
I loved the Scouring. It's actually a really good example of abuse (the way Worm reacts, etc.) as well as a snapshot of the kind of courage and confidence the four hobbits came into. Good writing, though certainly an addition to the Epic that is the rest of the books.

Greendragon
27-03-2012, 19:05
Just dug out "The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun" - forgot what happens in it, let the reading begin!

Peregrin
27-03-2012, 20:42
Lol... got that from my Pastors for Christmas. Haven't read more than a few paragraphs yet.

Denny
28-03-2012, 12:34
I loved the Scouring. It's actually a really good example of abuse (the way Worm reacts, etc.) as well as a snapshot of the kind of courage and confidence the four hobbits came into. Good writing, though certainly an addition to the Epic that is the rest of the books.

It just felt really anticlimactic to me; I appreciate that its purpose is to show how much the hobbits have changed, but after defeating Sauron taking on a powerless wizard and his bungling assistant for a full third of the book felt like something of a let-down.

Plus I couldn’t help wondering why they didn’t just ask Aragorn for some help. I mean, while he would have gladly sent a whole army to assist them, I’m thinking 5 Knights of Minas Tirith riding into The Shire could probably have resolved the situation within about an hour . . .

Peregrin
28-03-2012, 13:27
The point was that they didn't have to, even to the point of rousing the other hobbits simply by virtue of their own confidence and bearing. I do acknowledge your point though. It should almost be a short story accompanying the larger epic, and maybe that's how I've always seen it. More like filling out the background than part of the larger events.

I don't know about you, but there are pleanty of movies and books that, after they ended I wanted more info on what happened to the characters. Some movies add text at the end (eg.: Bob was married three times and opened a successful casino in Reno. He is currently single), but most are simply left to the imagination. Most of the time that's fine, but sometimes it is unsatisfying. Why do you think Star Wars novels are still popular? ;)

Denny
29-03-2012, 12:52
Why do you think Star Wars novels are still popular? ;)

I honestly have no idea. :evilgrin:

Nah, in all seriousness I do get why people want to know what happens next, but I’m not sure it’s actually a good idea. I’m reminded of Bette, a character in the Sandman, who notes that if you keep stories going long enough the ending is always the same; death.

I’d have been happy for the Lord of the Rings to have ended with the Hobbits arriving back at The Shire, realising there was a problem, debating contacting their allies but finally deciding that, actually, they can sort this out on their own . . . and it ends there.

That would have meant cutting Frodo’s departure with the Elves (which would have been a shame) but as it is the novel has a really odd structure; the climax (The One Ring’s destruction) happens really early in the book, and the resolution is rather drawn out . . .

I think Tolkien should have either decided to do The Shire Ending (with maybe a brief epilogue) or the ‘Frodo can’t go home again’ ending. Trying to do both I consider conceptually flawed and no writer (no matter how talented) could ever make it work for me.

Still, at least its original!

Peregrin
29-03-2012, 14:21
:) I see what you're saying but I can't agree that it's truely flawed (at least I wouldn't say it quite that way).

We may be skewed a little by our expectations as well. Tolkien was not only writing for a different reading culture, one that is now several generations removed, but also did a lot to establish the genre as we know it in the first place. We have been spoiled by the authors who are standing on the shoulders of men and women like Austen and Tolkien, while our contemporary novelists churn out pulp at an alarming rate simply by following a pleasing story pattern that's been established over the last 30 years for them....

That said, I actually do read the novels in smaller chunks, so I'm probably appreciating those shorter episodes, like The Scouring, on their own merits anyway, rather than considering the flow of the whole peice. You have to do that with a lot of Tolkien's other work as well (Silmarillion, essays, poems, etc.)

Denny
29-03-2012, 14:47
I concede Tolkien was writing for a different audience, and his contribution to the fantasy genre cannot be disputed (though I never feel like Moorcock or Leiber get enough credit). TBH flawed isnít really the right word. Lord of the Rings is far more than just a novel (itís an attempt to create a history, mythology, language etc.) with such an ambitious project certain sacrifices have to be made in terms of narrative and characterisation.

I guess Iím in the odd position of respecting the books as incredible technical achievements but (Donít Hate Me :p) not enjoying them that much as actual novels (though I'm now questioning whether they should be considered as novels/a novel rather than something else entirely.)

Iíve only read them a couple of times and its always been back-to-back as one book (as I inherited a single massive volume from my father); I wonder if thatís a factor . . ?

Getifa Ubazza
29-03-2012, 20:56
I think maybe thats partly why I wasn't keen on the Scouring. When the Ring was destroyed, The Scouring of the Shire seemed a bit like dragging the story on a bit, But understand it was written for a differant generation.

In other news. I got The Hobbit and Silmarillion in the post yesterday, so will be starting The Hobbit, when I go home.

Greendragon
30-03-2012, 13:24
Just going to throw a spanner in the works, go and check out youtube Lord of the Rings how it should have ended.

The eagles flew in to pick them up... Could have saved one hell of a walk :P

Getifa Ubazza
30-03-2012, 15:19
Just going to throw a spanner in the works, go and check out youtube Lord of the Rings how it should have ended.

The eagles flew in to pick them up... Could have saved one hell of a walk :PYeah! I watched that myself and thought it was quite funny and asked myself why they didn't just do that too. Then I realised why they couldn't, But it was still funny.

Peregrin
31-03-2012, 15:11
All points acknowledged. :)

Don't expect to enjoy Silmarillion or Hobbit as novels. (Enjoy them for what they are! ;) )
Hobbit is quite silly at times, runs counter to canon later established in LotR, and is obviously written for children. The general explanantion for it (after the fact) is that it is Bilbo's recollections written by him into a 'family friendly' form.
Silmarillion is the opposite. It is a much more technical and poetic work where you don't get to know individual characters well, but rather the history of the world of Arda.

Getifa Ubazza
31-03-2012, 22:03
All points acknowledged. :)

Don't expect to enjoy Silmarillion or Hobbit as novels. (Enjoy them for what they are! ;) )
Hobbit is quite silly at times, runs counter to canon later established in LotR, and is obviously written for children. The general explanantion for it (after the fact) is that it is Bilbo's recollections written by him into a 'family friendly' form.
Silmarillion is the opposite. It is a much more technical and poetic work where you don't get to know individual characters well, but rather the history of the world of Arda.

I will do exactly that. I also picked up another book today by Tolkien called The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun. Is that one any good and how should I read it? :p

librerian_samae
31-03-2012, 23:11
Sigurd and Gudrun, well I liked it.
It was part translation on the titular old Germanic prose and part academic discussion on the aforementioned and related topics.

Zogash
01-04-2012, 00:59
To me, the LotR is unique in that it never gets old. Other novels - Dan Brown stuff for example, or even Harry Potter - get stale after a few read-throughs, sometimes even after the first. Not the Lord of the Rings! It's World is so gigantic and real that it drags you in. You want to learn more about it, where it came from, who was in it before the actual events of the War of the Ring, etc. There is just so much to discover beyond the mundane story of getting from A to B: there's real languages, believable characters, there's true honour, sacrifice, friendship, and an entire history to explore.

If you approach this book with the expectation of an easy, fast-paced, and somewhat shallow read (think Da Vinci Code), you won't get past the first few chapters. There's just too much information to allow for this pace - especially the sheer amount of different characters to keep track of can be staggering. I tried reading the Fellowship when I was fifteen and staying in the US for a year (I'm German) and was overwhelmed by the books language level. I gave up shortly after Bilbo's birthday party... but I came back later when my English skills had improved and I've since then read the entire book a grand total of 11 times in the last 10 years, plus my favorite parts (most of RotK and the Appendices) several additional times. And I still discover new things I never noticed before.

The Silmarillion takes this to a whole other level! There are countless characters, places, events, and connections between each of them to keep track of, but boy is it EPIC! :D It probaby is less of a novel in the traditional sense but a huge tome of knowledge for those who want to delve in deeper into Middle-earth.

Another great read that hasn't been mentioned so far is Unfinished Tales. The title says it all: it's a compendium of drafts and essays that Tolkien never managed to finalize, heavily annotated by Christopher Tolkien. These include a (fantastic!) more detailed account of the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, the relationship between Cirion and Eorl, what the Istari are, the Ringwraiths' hunt for the Ring before they reached the Shire, stories set in Numenor, etc. I found it by chance at a book store and read it twice in 1 week, it's that awesome! Or maybe that's just me... :D

Peregrin
01-04-2012, 06:39
Agreed on all of that last post.

I also have Unfinished Tales and found it a really great source.

GodlessM
03-04-2012, 19:55
And if you regret all the Tom Bombadil stuff getting cut out, wait till you read the stuff that got cut from the end of return of the king.

It would have made for a terrible movie. Film making is strict; you tell your story and you end it. The Scouring of the Shire is another story in of itself and was only written into the book so as to resolve Saruman's story. Other than that it was something that shouldn't have been in the books as the story was about the Ring. Once the Ring was gone all that had to be done was tie up the characters' stories. Saruman's could have been done better.


I think Tolkien should have either decided to do The Shire Ending (with maybe a brief epilogue) or the ‘Frodo can’t go home again’ ending. Trying to do both I consider conceptually flawed and no writer (no matter how talented) could ever make it work for me.

You have hit the nail on the head here with a point that many people are not aware, and that is that Tolkein wasn't a professional writer.

Noobie2k7
09-04-2012, 15:23
I actually enjoyed every part of the Lord of the rings books, including the scouring of the shire. I was annoyed with most of what was cut out and even more annoyed about what Jackson added in. Things like Elves at helms deep, removal of the grey company and elronds sons, no Dol Amroth knights, especially seeing as Prince Imrahil was really one of the main characters in return of the king.

The fact Jackson showed more of the pellenor fields battle than was needed, seeing as Tolkien really payed not as much attention to these battles only telling what needed to be told.

Prime example of that and something that really irked me was the army of the dead. Why Jackson felt the need to include them in the battle of pellenor fields is any ones guess. It was a terrible idea and just portrayed that pretty much anything anyone else was doing at that battle was pointless.

But yes, films bad, books good. Should have made 6 films instead of 3 and had 1 film to each book and actually told the story that was written and not just changed it as he saw fit. Little changes are fine but not to the sort of scale Jackson did.

ForgottenLore
09-04-2012, 16:03
Prime example of that and something that really irked me was the army of the dead. Why Jackson felt the need to include them in the battle of pellenor fields is any ones guess.

Because there was no way to explain the battle of the Pelargir to an audience, it would have been too confusing trying to explain yet another location and why it was important. They had to add scenes explaining the differences and relative locations of Isengard and Mordor to Rohan and Gondor because test audiences were getting too confused. Trying to add yet another battle, and explain why it was important and where it was happening was simply not possible.

GodlessM
10-04-2012, 01:16
But yes, films bad, books good. Should have made 6 films instead of 3 and had 1 film to each book and actually told the story that was written and not just changed it as he saw fit. Little changes are fine but not to the sort of scale Jackson did.

Shows how much you know about film making (which is perfectly fine), but don't judge what you don't understand.

Noobie2k7
10-04-2012, 03:17
Shows how much you know about film making (which is perfectly fine), but don't judge what you don't understand. I know a bit about film making. But was i was trying to say was it didn't seem like Jackson was making films based on the books. But both were enjoyable and can see why, just didn't really like it.

But maybe i did get a bit carried away with my rant XD

But sort of on topic. Congrats on picking up the books so cheap :D i've had my copies of the trilogy, the hobbit and silmarillion since i was little. my Lotr trilogy is the 1976-78 editions and my Hobbit is the 1966 3rd edition XD So i'm pretty lucky to have older copies of the books i suppose.

Peregrin
10-04-2012, 12:26
I basically agree with N2K7, though I don't think I'd have wanted 6 movies. Tom and the scouring being dropped makes some sense, but adding in extra stuff that changes the story or characters irritated me as well.

Regarding the army of the dead, Jackson probably liked them because he has a history of making horror movies. He didn't previously introduce an army of Rangers to accompanie Aragorn, and having Aragorn jump off the ships with just Gimli and Legolas wouldn't have turned the battle, so they had to use what they already had.

I would have prefered that they introduce Elrond's sons in Rivendell, even if only in passing. I personally feel like they could have been a lot more compelling to an audience than Haldir was. If they felt they needed more soldiers at Helm's Deep they could have had the twins lead in a group of Rangers. I'm sure it wouldn't have cost any more to design than the new elf armour. Then you'd have the twins and Rangers pouring out of the ships and actually being part of the battle, rather than the dead deus ex machina that we got.

I did enjoy the movies, but there were irritants like this as well.

Getifa Ubazza
10-04-2012, 21:25
I just finished The Hobbit and loved it even more than LotR. Maybe that says something about my maturity level, But I don't care. :p

One thing that was worrying me was all the talk of talking animals and that no one understood how Peter Jackson would mature it up, But I honestly didn't think it was very childish. Not in the way Narnia was. It seemed that only certain people could understand the animals, so wasn't such a big thing for me.

The only exception maybe being the raven that could actually talk and be understood by everyone, But even that was seen as unusual. In the real world though, some birds can mimic human speech, so perhaps even that is not that big a stretch.

The only issue I have with The Hobbit is that I don't see how the story is going to stretch over 2 films. I just didn't think the book was that long. I assume the stuff about the Necromancer and what have you, that was only hinted at in the book will fill out quite abit of the films.

I can't wait to see Beorn. Both the man and the bear. Especially the bear at the Battle of Five Armies. Oh! And GW's model of him. I want that model so badly.

Greendragon
10-04-2012, 22:02
Yeah the researchers have trolled through the apendixes at the back of the third book (in my version anyway) and pulled out the detailed account of exactly what Gandalf was up to during the Hobbit, so we have a complete story. What interests me is Legolas and Gimli's part in the second film, a cameo of some sort?

ForgottenLore
10-04-2012, 23:51
What interests me is Legolas and Gimli's part in the second film, a cameo of some sort?

????

Gimli's not going to be in it, is he? First I've heard of that and he isn't listed in the credits on IMDB.

Peregrin
11-04-2012, 13:43
He could make an appearance as Gloin's son, but it's much harder to crowbar him in than Legolas.

Greendragon
11-04-2012, 15:11
I believe my information may be out-dated from a very old empire article I read, possibly when they decided to have the second film as the bridge film. On further investigation, Legolas is casted and I've no doubt he'll appear alongside the Greenwood Elves in the second film (or first depending on where the cut off is but I would think that the spiders would be about it). Can't wait to see the bear-man ... oh and Smaug! =D

Noobie2k7
11-04-2012, 17:47
I think Smaug is going to be awesome. I'm mainly looking forward to the Dul Guldor bits in the films as that's always interested me and i cannot wait to see it all played out :D

Hopefully Peter Jackson will want to do more films and move onto the Fall of Arnor next XD Love to see The battles between Arnor and Angmar in a film.