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Caitsidhe
19-03-2012, 15:27
I have had it suggested to me that the new blade alteration (possible upgrade for the unit I'm guessing) for the Khorne will be a return to the old Khornite Chain Axes, i.e. no save can be better than 4+. It was suggested to me that this will help deal with the proliferation of Storm Shields. Thoughts?

loveless
19-03-2012, 15:42
I thought the old "heavy close combat weapon" rule (or whatever it was called) only affected armor saves, meaning it would do nothing to Storm Shields, as they provide invulnerable saves.

My thoughts on the idea are the same as always - it makes no sense. Why would a weapon have no effect on Flak or Carapace armor, but be increasingly effective against Power and Terminator/Artificer armor? Is it coated in special ceramite-eating acid?

Caitsidhe
19-03-2012, 15:47
I have no idea why it would be more effective, but the old rule appeared to be that no save (armor or invulnerable) could be better than 4+.

ColShaw
19-03-2012, 16:06
The old "heavy close combat weapon" rule was specifically instituted by GW for the Orks so they'd have a chance in assault against MEQs. It then got ported over to Berzerkers in the 3.5 Chaos codex. It was a rules patch to fix a specific army imbalance, and never made any sense (the rationalization was that lighter armor allowed guys to get out of the way of the swings, which only made sense if the same logic wasn't applied to stuff like Powerfists).

Caitsidhe
19-03-2012, 16:11
I never said I thought it made any sense (or if I'm pro or con). It was just suggested to me that this would be the case, particularly in light of the newest rumors. It might not make any sense, but it would go a long way to fixing the Storm Shield issue. Of course, they fix that in 6th Edition rules by directly altering Storm Shields.

Konovalev
19-03-2012, 16:18
I wouldnt be surprised to see something of an AP value given to close combat weapons in the new edition, but the return of the chainaxe/choppa rule seems unlikely.

Scammel
19-03-2012, 16:20
The best Berzerkers or Orks could hope for in that respect is probably rending, though I doubt it for anything except Big Choppaz.

dugaal
19-03-2012, 17:26
Playing devils advocate here, but another explanation could be the blunt crushing nature of the hit opposed to it just sawing through the armor. Heavy armor may be more impenetrable but has less 'give' and transmits more kinetic force to the wearer.

I realize someone with a better grasp of physics might come along and shoot me down....

Dorn's Arrow
19-03-2012, 17:52
I never said I thought it made any sense (or if I'm pro or con). It was just suggested to me that this would be the case, particularly in light of the newest rumors. It might not make any sense, but it would go a long way to fixing the Storm Shield issue. Of course, they fix that in 6th Edition rules by directly altering Storm Shields.

Alternatively people could get over the storm shield 'issue' by realising it isn't one.

loveless
19-03-2012, 18:06
Alternatively people could get over the storm shield 'issue' by realising it isn't one.

That was going to be my follow-up...they really don't seem that common in my experience. Are people facing a lot of Deathwing/Loganwing?

LonelyPath
19-03-2012, 18:21
That was going to be my follow-up...they really don't seem that common in my experience. Are people facing a lot of Deathwing/Loganwing?

My DW list contains 6 Storm Shields spread across 2 squads, not counting Belial when I also give him that load out as well. But yeah, SS never seem to bemuch of a issue when I see SM on the table.

Chem-Dog
19-03-2012, 18:28
An easier fix would be to allow certain weapons, like the Khorne Axes, a re-roll to wound. More armour saves means more fails, theoretically. Though I think Khorne Berserkers with their umpteen inherent advantages really shouldn't be complaining all that much.

Lord Damocles
19-03-2012, 18:50
The Khornate Chain Axe only affected armour saves, so it would do nothing against Storm Shields.


Heavy Close Combat Weapons were a terrible idea back then, and would be again.
It never ceases to amuse me that people come up with all sorts of ways to 'help deal with the proliferation of Storm Shields', but the simplest solution is surely to make the Storm Shield not a 3++.

theunwantedbeing
19-03-2012, 19:02
An easier fix would be to allow certain weapons, like the Khorne Axes, a re-roll to wound. More armour saves means more fails, theoretically. Though I think Khorne Berserkers with their umpteen inherent advantages really shouldn't be complaining all that much.

Yeah chain weapons get a re-roll to wound, that'de give some point to carrying them :)

Giving weapons AP values would be nice as well.

Elios Harg
19-03-2012, 20:11
I don't think that the storm shield being a 3+ invuln save is a real issue, just make people pay for them and it's fine. The best way to kill terminators is overwhelming number of attacks *or* low AP weapons. Storm shields only mitigates one of these options, the other is still plenty viable.

Chapters Unwritten
19-03-2012, 20:13
An easier fix would be to allow certain weapons, like the Khorne Axes, a re-roll to wound. More armour saves means more fails, theoretically. Though I think Khorne Berserkers with their umpteen inherent advantages really shouldn't be complaining all that much.An even easier fix is -1 or 2 to armor saves.

And I agree -- The storm shield is not a problem. Rolling a 3+ is still rolling a 3+, and it gives a much needed durability that makes units feel much more like their fluff.

People are always whining about gameplay not equating with fluff but storm shields are one of the few things that make a space marine feel like a space marine. Moreover, that 3++ shield is the first in a long line of things that were designed to make the game more interesting. It enables later decisions like chimeltavet discount prices, tervigon spawning, army-wide SW counter-attack, army-wide poison weapons, or Necron reanimation protocols and teleporting. Literally EVERY army has something like this.

People are only mad about storm shields because they are stuck in the old mindset that a 3++ should be reserved for the Emperor himself, and that a standard armor save of 3+ is god-like and unbreakable. This is not the case and has not objectively been the case since 5th ed dropped.

loveless
19-03-2012, 20:21
a standard armor save of 3+ is god-like and unbreakable.

Are there people that still think that way? It boggles the mind...I'm relatively certain I've failed more 3+ saves than made them, typically to bolter fire. A 3++ is helpful, but I'm sure I'd fail that just as often as I would a 3+ :angel:

Pour boxes of bullets into Terminators...they'll die eventually :p

Battleworthy Arts
19-03-2012, 20:22
It should be like the tesla rule but in close combat. :)

Lucious
20-03-2012, 02:06
I would like to see some rules from 2nd edition re-introduced. Khornate axes giving a -1 to armour save. This would make sense on all armour, term armour becomes 3+, power armour becomes 4+, so on and so on.

Cheexsta
20-03-2012, 06:09
Recent rumours from TheDarkGeneral suggest that Chainaxes were being considered, and that rules like +1Str or Rending were possibilities. So, chainaxes might make a return, but this does not mean that they'll have the same rules.

I'd love to see Chainaxes return, personally.

Latro_
20-03-2012, 11:15
Would not surprise me if berzerkers had furious charge AND rending in the new codex but also rage.

Asher
20-03-2012, 11:32
Would not surprise me if berzerkers had furious charge AND rending in the new codex but also rage.

Personally I'd rather pass up on rending, if it means to have a functional army. Even Khorne daemons, the embodiment of rage manage to keep themselves in check.

orkmiester
20-03-2012, 12:05
Would not surprise me if berzerkers had furious charge AND rending in the new codex but also rage.

that seems 'ok' but i think there would be 'concerns' over the fact that with rage (if i remember correctly...) that bezerkers could be lead round by the nose all of the time.

currently- they work fine, the old adage 'if it ain't broke don't fix it':p


the old choppa/chainaxe rules would make mincemeat of stormshield termies- as you don't ignore their armour saves a 4+ agaisnt all those attacks, they wouldn't last long:shifty:

on the tesla idea- its a good one. Makes more 'sense' when talking about chainaxes

:angel:

Elios Harg
20-03-2012, 13:28
the old choppa/chainaxe rules would make mincemeat of stormshield termies- as you don't ignore their armour saves a 4+ agaisnt all those attacks, they wouldn't last long:shifty:

It doesn't matter that you don't ignore their armor save. You always use the models best available save, in this instance it would be a 3+ invulnerable save.

Kevlar
20-03-2012, 13:39
It should be like the tesla rule but in close combat. :)


Yeah, they used to have that too, was called an axe of khorne. Never to be fielded without spikey bitz!

ColShaw
20-03-2012, 14:05
Yeah, they used to have that too, was called an axe of khorne. Never to be fielded without spikey bitz!

Ah, good times. I remember a Berzerker Champion scoring 12 hits on a Carnifex once, combined with Furious Charge to chop the thing down in a single round. :)

Latro_
20-03-2012, 14:34
I know rage'd be a kick in the nads for a useable army but I really do think GW are gonna amp up chaos stuff but ofc give a nerf to balance it out. Maybe they'd get rage after the first kill or if an IC is about the keep em in check.

We can speculate all we like i guess, we'll find out soon enough :D.

Lothlanathorian
21-03-2012, 09:25
I'd give Berzerkers something more like the Black Rage which is exactly what they gave them in the 3.5 Codex, only, where it only happens on a 6 for Blood Angels, it happened on a 5 or 6 for 'Zerks. I'd just keep that mechanic. It doesn't make them as useless as Rage would, but, it makes them feel more like the skull collecting maniacs we know and love.

Gorbad Ironclaw
21-03-2012, 09:34
but I really do think GW are gonna amp up chaos stuff

Chaos stuff is fine, but people generally prefer to be fighting their opponents army, not their own when they are playing. Rules that take control of your own army out of your hands as standard and to a great extend are just no fun.

bobafett_h
22-03-2012, 00:07
The way Khornate Chainaxes used to work was nice back then, but didn't make a whole lot of sense.

Personally I believe that all Chain weapons (from standard Chainswords to Chainfists) should have rules that make them better than normal close combat weapons (combat knives, basic swords and fists for instance). A different AP value would make sense here. The leaked 6th beta playtest rulebook did introduce AP for melee weapons which I think will make sense across the board.

Hopefully Khornate Chainaxes do return (since I have several models equipped with Chainaxes as it is) and that they still have an advantage over normal chainswords. A better AP, re-rolls for hits or wounds, Rending, +1 to strength or -1 to Armour Save could all be possibilities depending on how the standard Berzerker weapons end up...