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scoopdeta
19-03-2012, 21:48
So just a quick question for everyone from a gaming and a general fluff standpoint. I want to start a daemons of Chaos Army and have been looking at the mini range. I like the range a lot, specifically the tzeentch and slannesh minis. When I look at them they seem like they would go well together. I can see making them look good together paint scheme wise and such. But would this be cheesy to run? Would I get booed of the table or judged for running the two together as one?

thesheriff
19-03-2012, 22:02
Well, traditionally, Khorne and tzeentch stuff is teh most broken, while Nurgle and Slaanesh lack a bit. So, i reckon its quite balanced.

Where it gets broken is with the combos that Tzeentch (most notably MoS mages) can do to other gods core troops. For example, Okkams Mind razor on Daemonettes is ridiculous. As is Lore of Life.

I think its quite possible to work out quite a good combo for them. But, its not something I would refuse to play. It would definatly be competative though...

thesheriff

vcassano
19-03-2012, 22:17
I don't think Daemons can take Lore of Life, but I don't have the book by me to confirm.

Slaanesh can be a bit abusive, but only if you make it so - basically avoid Siren Song and most opponents will be happy. I have for a while been on the verge of doing a keeper of secrets-led army just for the fragile beauty of it all. Also, stay away from Shadow if you want to be nice :)

EDIT: Definitely never touch the Masque.

Urgat
20-03-2012, 00:18
Are demons as bad as before in 8th ed? I was under the impression the field had been severely leveled for them?

Spiney Norman
20-03-2012, 00:35
I don't think Daemons can take Lore of Life, but I don't have the book by me to confirm.

Slaanesh can be a bit abusive, but only if you make it so - basically avoid Siren Song and most opponents will be happy. I have for a while been on the verge of doing a keeper of secrets-led army just for the fragile beauty of it all. Also, stay away from Shadow if you want to be nice :)

EDIT: Definitely never touch the Masque.

I'm pretty sure a Tzeentch character with Master of Sorcery can take any BRB lore he jolly well likes, could be wrong about that though, failing that doesn't Kairos know every lore going? Still I think Shadow has the potential to be a lot nastier than life with an army of daemonettes.

bluemage
20-03-2012, 00:52
I wouldn't worry about it being cheesy, 8th did a lot to balance the armies. Some might find using tzeench to cast mindrazor on deamonettes cheesy, but so many other armies can did as well. High elf spearmen or witch elves are even worse. Really just run what you want and with some experience you'll get an idea of what's considered cheesy in your play group. I mean lets be honest, what's considered cheesy varies from group to group and player to player. And in tournaments they'll clearly spell out what's allowed and what's not so you don't have to worry about your list being cheesy there.

scoopdeta
20-03-2012, 01:33
Thanks for all the feedback guys. Just curious why the masque was specifically mentioned. I do not have the Army book yet...typically just paint what i like. But I have been wanting to get a whole Army painted up and fielded. So here is the next question...I have 60 horrors painted up...not the new ones. I really like the way they turned out...thinking about rebasing them but I would still like to use them. Any opinions...are horrors still as powerful as they once were...thinking 2 blocks of 30.

Galley
20-03-2012, 12:23
1) no idea why masque is frowned upon. I've yet to field one, and although expensive it seems handy. Worth a shot.
2) I'd avoid horrors if I were you. They're resiliant, but suck in cc and only serve to compete with your lords/Herod for magic dice.
3) You have yet to mention flamers. You need flamers.

xisor83
20-03-2012, 13:14
i played a game against a block of 30 horrors last night and they caused me some problems. Dont underestimate how nice a tarpit a 4+ ward can make a unit i thought i had time to kill them and reform to face the incoming bloodletters but they held me and the letters got my flank. You can guess what happened next

Galley
20-03-2012, 13:17
Extremely expensive tarpit though...

xisor83
20-03-2012, 13:19
ye it is but the access to tzeench spells is handy if not brilliant and to be honest theres not a lot else daemons have to hold things in place thats any cheaper. I by no means consider myself an expert on daemons though so i may well be talking rubbish but they sure did a job on my orcs last night.

Oh and i echo what was said about flamers they are great although somewhere in the world a baby panda dies everytime you field 2 units of 6.

scoopdeta
20-03-2012, 13:35
Thanks for the feedback...

@Galley...I have always liked horrors just due to the model...not necessarily the stats. I think they represent chaos vary while with their weird distorting bodies an dtheir multiple bright colors. I know they used to be considered over strength in 7th. I am glad they are not so bad in 8th...people used to hate playing against a daemon army. I have them as a choice. As far as flamers...I have a couple boxes that I havent painted up yet...but they will be in the mix for sure.

@xisor83...thanks for the info. Sorry to hear about your orcs...makes me confident that I can still field my horrors. And as I said above...flamers are definently going to be in there. I will say a prayer for the baby Pandas.

As far as the models I want in the Army...

Horrors
Flamers
Screamers
Seekers of slannesh
Daemonettes
and on a conversion side...I'd love to turn some daemonettes into furies as well

character models that I like...Herald of tzeentch on disc, the changeling

Anybody see this as having the opportunity for a competitive build?

xisor83
20-03-2012, 13:38
that looks good to me mate the daemonettes can take the role that most people give to bloodletters and everything else will support them pretty well i think.

scoopdeta
20-03-2012, 13:40
135843

Here is the convesion I have been thinking about...just like the look.

xisor83
20-03-2012, 13:41
ye ive seen them used for harpies and they look great. Would work well for furies too i think

Galley
20-03-2012, 14:41
I field seekers myself- fun unit and a hell of a war machine hunter, but obviously a bad bait unit. Gotta take a large unit if you wanna disrupt too, don't forget.

Bassik
20-03-2012, 20:56
Sounds good to me!

thesheriff
20-03-2012, 21:40
Thanks for all the feedback guys. Just curious why the masque was specifically mentioned. I do not have the Army book yet...typically just paint what i like. But I have been wanting to get a whole Army painted up and fielded. So here is the next question...I have 60 horrors painted up...not the new ones. I really like the way they turned out...thinking about rebasing them but I would still like to use them. Any opinions...are horrors still as powerful as they once were...thinking 2 blocks of 30.

The masque, like many thins in the daemon book, is frowned upon when used in conjunction with other things. The masque, among other things, can reduce the enemies LD. by D3. This isnt necassarily over powered, shes quite flimsy and at 90pts, is a decent chunk out of your Hero slot (an area that mnay top range choices compete in). However, when combined with The Great Iocn of Despair (anouther -2ld), and considering your entire army causes fear, it makes for a -4 test every combat phase.

I am of the personal opion, that if you are giving the opponent the convention of not taking Khorne (arguably the most powerful of the 4 in the game), as long as you remain in the peramiters of your Ttzeentch/Slaanesh theme, all other bets are off. Many flamers, many tzeentch wizards, much moral highground :p

On the subject of horrors, unless your playing storm of magic, or REALLY big games, one unit is almsot always enough. A lv.4 is always good for dispelling, but more than one is overkill with only 2D^ dice. Since you have 60, I would try and use most of them. One unit (at least 40 big, preferabbly 50). Then, one big-ass unit of Daemonettes w. Herald and you shoudl be good to go.

kenotic
21-03-2012, 18:12
Field any thing in your book, no need to limit yourself.;)

Manling
21-03-2012, 21:57
Deamons of Chaos are generally seen as one of the cheesiest armies. as long as your not a jerk while i play you im generally fine.

Why
22-03-2012, 01:17
Before you start a game ask your self, "Is this abusing a certain ability this model/unit has?" if so then maybe rethink your list.

Damons can be really mean but as long as you aren't cheesy they aren't that bad. Stay away from bloodletter hordes, skulltaker and Kairos.
Also don't send great unclean ones flying around with steed of shadows, and don't cast mindrazor on daemonetts.

nurgle5
22-03-2012, 01:47
How cheesy daemons are is directly proportioned to you and your opponents competency. They can pull some powerhouse antics, but so can any army really. Daemons are still strong, though 8th has levelled the playing field quite a bit. They're still a bit underpriced but don't believe the hype:

My Masque always performs atrociously, no matter how broken the internet tells me she is :cries:.

Feefait
22-03-2012, 01:55
It sounds like you are taking an army based on the models you like and aesthetics. There's nothing wrong with that. Plus, even old school chaos followers who are sill upset about the mixing of gods and loss of rivalries can hardly ocmplain about Tzeentch and Slaanesh working together.

dimetri1
23-03-2012, 05:19
There is nothing cheesy about your army. Though you night catch some grief for using the Masque since she is a sc.

Blkc57
23-03-2012, 06:47
The masque, like many thins in the daemon book, is frowned upon when used in conjunction with other things. The masque, among other things, can reduce the enemies LD. by D3. This isnt necassarily over powered, shes quite flimsy and at 90pts, is a decent chunk out of your Hero slot (an area that mnay top range choices compete in). However, when combined with The Great Iocn of Despair (anouther -2ld), and considering your entire army causes fear, it makes for a -4 test every combat phase.


It not just taking fear checks, if you combine all of that with a Tzeentch caster that has either Doom and Darkness or the basic heavens spell you further lower their leadership. If your opponent loses combat even by a single CR they are breaking, stubborn and steadfast help you very little if you are still only leadership 4. Thats why the Masque can be so devastating, the leadership cheese can just be too overpowering for any army that doesn't have large unbreakable units like the Skaven do.

oldWitheredCorpse
23-03-2012, 09:05
How cheesy daemons are is directly proportioned to you and your opponents competency. They can pull some powerhouse antics, but so can any army really.

You mean "any 7th ed power army".

nurgle5
23-03-2012, 14:18
You mean "any 7th ed power army".

Not really, every army has some tricks up it's sleeves. Ogre maneaters with poison, sniper and handguns are fantastic at taking out the all important BSB, General or Level 4 Wizard. There's also the much debated TK MWBD/Fencer's blades combo, the golden mask of terror, deep-striking chariots; Hordes of Savage Orcs with impact hits and daemonic ward saves; the stubborn dwarf conga-line; the cheap as chips state troop halberd hordes; teleporting wood elves or the character sniper WE Noble build. The list goes on.

The "power" armies are under-priced more than anything. It's laughable that an army can't pull powerhouse antics because the internet doesn't consider them a "power army".

Echunia
23-03-2012, 14:27
My Masque always performs atrociously, no matter how broken the internet tells me she is :cries:.

I think one of the main reasons people whine about her is that she's so cheap. In the end it hardly matters if she achieves anything because the investment isn't big. Her potential however is amazing, so for the points she isn't really balanced.


There's also the much debated TK MWBD/Fencer's blades combo, the golden mask of terror, deep-striking chariots;

MWBD only works with unmodified WS ---> won't work with fencers blades.

nurgle5
23-03-2012, 15:14
MWBD only works with unmodified WS ---> won't work with fencers blades.

Well, like I said that's debatable. Fencers blades swaps out the WS not "modify" it in the usual sense of "+1/-1". The FAQ doesn't address this, which really doesn't help.