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Brolaski
20-03-2012, 21:11
So i'm in need of assistance, this guy at my local store has just stomped me every time with his TK and I think it's high time I beat him for once :) but, unfortunately, I'm not what you would call a "Tactical Genius" :( . This is were you guys come in! Any and all help would be appreciated. I play daemons of chaos and my biggest problems with his lists so far are the chariots and his sphinxes. If you guys need anymore info just let me know and I'll do the best I can!

Thanks again!

Malorian
20-03-2012, 21:24
Put some furries into your list to steal the charge away from the chariots, or hit them first with a greater deamon.

Sphinxes fall to mass attacks and poison, so use either deamonettes or PBs.

Snake22486
21-03-2012, 00:59
Bring bloodthirster + as many flamers as possible. PB for core so shooting wont decimate your units.

Lord Cedric
21-03-2012, 02:02
Take out his Heirophant and watch his army begin to fall apart. This is done by him doing a leadership test for each unit once the model is gone and on his turn in subsequent rounds. If you can get his tougher units' LD stat to lower via a spell or item, then this will work to great effect. Also, stacking up units to win combat rounds - even though he is unbreakable, if he loses combat that unit suffers wounds equal to the difference of the combat resolution (Crumble rule). And add to that what others have said as well - including flame attacks. Chariots also do not do well after charging in subsequent rounds so getting multiple ranks and steadfast are your friends here. Chariots also don't like things with uneven ground and have more of a chance to fail difficult terrain checks so use the terrain to your advantage. I don't play Daemons so I don't know if you can take it, but there is a spell that makes a unit take difficult terrain checks just to move (even on open ground).

- Lord Cedric

Yamabushi
21-03-2012, 02:44
As a TK player, I can say that the death of the Hierophant is pretty minimal. Note that unlike VC, we have:

a) The General and the Hierophant are usually two separate characters - this means we can use the Ld 9/10 of a Prince/King to effectively cancel of the crumbling every turn. Also, our constructs are all Ld 8, and with the Animated Construct rule, we are effectively Ld 9 when it comes to test for the death of the Hierophant (Ld 10 when in range of a Prince).

b) Furthermore, most of our units sport decent Ld e.g. Tomb Guard Ld 8, Chariots Ld 7. So the death of the Hierophant only serves to remove the magical support, most of the time.

A smart undead player would not pile on crap troops together with their elites due to CR bleed. So try to force him into such situations.

Chariots die if they are charged, unless there is a character in there, which might turn the battle into a grind. In that case, swipe the chariot under him for easy CR and limit his movement further.

Like the others said, bring a Greater Daemon :) There's nothing much we can do to handle a flying killing machine. Dispel the movement spell and see our movement being crippled even further.

Out of curiosity, what else does he field?

Brolaski
21-03-2012, 03:31
after the sphinxes and chariots, he usually has two 40 man blocks of skeles, a lvl4 and king I believe, some archers, a giant, and the casket recently. There may be a few other things but I can't think of them at the moment. He's not the most competitive player, and I don't mind losing, but I don't mind winning either :)

Siphon
21-03-2012, 04:01
As a TK player, I can say that the death of the Hierophant is pretty minimal. Note that unlike VC, we have:

a) The General and the Hierophant are usually two separate characters - this means we can use the Ld 9/10 of a Prince/King to effectively cancel of the crumbling every turn. Also, our constructs are all Ld 8, and with the Animated Construct rule, we are effectively Ld 9 when it comes to test for the death of the Hierophant (Ld 10 when in range of a Prince).

b) Furthermore, most of our units sport decent Ld e.g. Tomb Guard Ld 8, Chariots Ld 7. So the death of the Hierophant only serves to remove the magical support, most of the time.

A smart undead player would not pile on crap troops together with their elites due to CR bleed. So try to force him into such situations.

Chariots die if they are charged, unless there is a character in there, which might turn the battle into a grind. In that case, swipe the chariot under him for easy CR and limit his movement further.

Like the others said, bring a Greater Daemon :) There's nothing much we can do to handle a flying killing machine. Dispel the movement spell and see our movement being crippled even further.

Out of curiosity, what else does he field?

+1 to this.

As a TK player, I protect my Hierophant as I would any other level 4 mage, but I don't care that much about the army wide crumble. Between our already high leadership and the General, it usually only crumbles my Catapults and any Horse Archers still alive.

As mentioned, poison really is the bane of our Sphinx's. We live and die off of our toughness, so skipping the to wound roll hurts. Other people may disagree with me, but I would skip flaming attacks against TK. Only our characters have flammable and the important ones will have a 2+ ward save vs flaming. Sure, you might get lucky and do a double wound, but I wouldn't count on it.

Hitting the Skeleton blocks in the flank with anything hard hitting and you should crumble them in 2 combat phases. Remember, TK don't have to take many leadership tests, but we do still have to take a leadership test to reform after losing a combat. A nice flank charge and they won't be reforming.

With chariots, either just suck up the initial impact hits with a deep unit or work out a way to get the charge on them. If they don't get the charge, they are pretty soft. On this unit though, does your opponent play many small units of 3 or does he run one larger unit with Noble support?

The casket is pretty tough, I'll admit. It'll usually be sitting in a corner somewhere dropping it's spell each turn and takes considerable effort to wipe out. The best bet is to keep units more then 6 inches apart if possible to limit the jump OR keep as many units near your high leadership general. Dispelling the Light of Death spell should be a priority probably 3/4ths of the time. Most of our Lore of Nehekara spells are situational (in which case, just dispel them when you need to) or are underwhelming. There is no need to dispel the Ward save spell on the unit of skeletons or chariots in combat with you if it would eat your DD and let him cast Light of Death.

Again as mentioned above, a large flying monster is usually pretty tough for TK to deal with. I've had dragons and riders eat 1200+ points of my army before and I either never killed it or only barely did. Just make sure to keep it away from his Necrosphinx. The HKB is really only for fear (being maybe an 8% chance to pop another monster), the real benefit is that with the Necro's toughness he can usually outlast and grind down other big monsters. On a side note, a Greater Demon should eat any chariots unit without a Noble for lunch and will likely get the charge vs them.

Anyway, good luck.

Brolaski
21-03-2012, 04:12
Thanks a lot for all the advice, I really appreciate it!

@siphon - he runs one unit of 6 chariots with a noble support.

Yamabushi
21-03-2012, 05:13
I agree with Siphon, only the Kings/Princes/Necrotect/Herald (i.e. the "martial" characters) are flammable, and most are heavily protected to ensure that their wills can be done for as long as possible.

[/QUOTE]A nice flank charge and they won't be reforming.[/QUOTE]

Tomb Kings are unbreakable however, meaning that they can always do a combat reform without suffering from any combat modifiers.

If he is bringing two 40 man blocks of skellies, and the King is with the Chariot, its even easier.

Skeleton Warriors without nobility are very sub-par tarpits. If he seeks to anvil you with the skellies and flank you with the chariots, then funnily enough, you would stand a higher chance of winning (provide you can eat up the initial impact hits) - ignore the chariots and pile everything on the skeletons and watch the chariots crumble to CR bleed.

On the other hand, if you survived a chariot charge to the front and get flanked by a bus of skellies, things can be very different. This is the paradox of Tomb Kings, the classic anvil and hammer role can, sometimes, swap place. (I am assuming a bloodletter horde here :) )

Have you considered juggernauts?

Dreadlordpaul
21-03-2012, 08:02
take either a LoC or a Disc herald with loremaster and take lore of death. the rest is pretty obvious

grhino
22-03-2012, 14:57
Take on the sphinxes with Deamon cav. since it does not thunderstomp again cav. and cannot use it special attack. This should minimize damage he does to you and maximize yours. 10 deamonettes on steeds will do nicely. Get them into his flank and you're in! Same for chariots - just charge them with something and watch them crumble...

Gladisknight
22-03-2012, 15:22
Killing the hierophant is good, of course, but some lists can take that in stride. constructs have Ld 8 and take 1 wound less from crumbling. So I wouldn't put all my hopes on killing a mage with mainly support spells whose use is highly situational.