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View Full Version : Testing Out Competitive Wood Elves (Round 2)



Malorian
21-03-2012, 02:10
So I wanted to try out my competitive wood elves again and so I had a game with a very strong empire player. He decided to surprise me though and brought out his new WoC.


My list:

Lvl 4 prophetess w/ scroll, ruby ring, steed
Noble w/ hail of doom, enchanted shield, steed, LA, spear, luck stone

4X 10 glade guard
3X 5 glade riders
3X 10 glade riders w/ banner and musician

3 war hawks

5 waywatchers
5 waywatchers
eagle

Total: 2500


His list(ish):

Daemon prince w/ MoT

BSB w/ -1 LD banner, MoT

20 warriors w/ shields, banner, musician, MoT
15 warriors w/ shields, banner, musician, MoT
6 dogs
6 dogs

10 knights w/ MoT, blasted standard

Hellcannon
Hellcannon


So I didn't know how I was going to deal with the hellcannons, and things were made even tougher when we got battle for the pass. I don't know why people think this is a good mission for me... I'd much rather have room to flank and scout. Anyway I had a game plan and just had to wait to see if it would work...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev_rinVForo

TsukeFox
21-03-2012, 04:08
It is just sad that a Daemon Prince is so fragile-
While a K.Destroyer is the Daemon princes superior in every way- cheaper in points by what a 150+-?

Good effort- amazing that your opponent failed the snot out of his armor saves.

scubasteve04
21-03-2012, 04:49
Yea its pretty pathetic that it takes on average 72 bow shots (hitting on 3 wounding on 6) to kill the Daemon Prince, and 243 shots to kill a disc sorcerer lord with a charmed shield and talisman of preservation (hitting on 3 wounding on 5). Wanted to make the Daemon Prince work so bad because I love the model and fluff, but he is just too much of a liability for 535pts. Made a nice disc sorcerer lord conversion so I am happy with using that for now.

One big thing I learned in this fight is that I need to get out of the Empire mentality and deploy those hellcannons more aggressively. They are monsters and should be part of my battle line, and if they rampage the 3D6 distance should get them into combat.

MOMUS
21-03-2012, 06:44
Dispel remains in play at ANY time....hmmm ive heard that argued before but never seen it used mid spell. I think that wording is a little vague, doesnt it also states that your magic phase is over when you 'declare it over'. Meaning you could declare it over before the enemy has a chance to use his saved dispel dice for the remains in play spells you casted the turn before? Or you can declare it over so hes lost the chance to save any dispel dice with items like diadem of power?

Malorian
21-03-2012, 13:53
Dispel remains in play at ANY time....hmmm ive heard that argued before but never seen it used mid spell. I think that wording is a little vague, doesnt it also states that your magic phase is over when you 'declare it over'. Meaning you could declare it over before the enemy has a chance to use his saved dispel dice for the remains in play spells you casted the turn before? Or you can declare it over so hes lost the chance to save any dispel dice with items like diadem of power?

This is the order:

-Magic phase starts
-Generate dice
-Cast a spell
-Opponent has chance to dispel
-Repeat until phase ends

Now during a miscast the opponent has no chance to dispel BUT the effect is worked out before the miscast, so really he has until my phase starts until we finish rolling the effect to dispel the remains in play spell.

Trust me, I REALLY doubted this when he said it but when I looked it up and read it for myself it's 100% clear. Maybe it should say that it has to be done at the end of the phase after all new spells are resolved, but it doesn't.


Either way it was an interesting game and I'm keen for revenge ;)

tmarichards
21-03-2012, 14:02
Your BSB is not allowed the Enchanted Shield, as he is not allowed to buy a mundane shield.

If you're looking for a really competitive Wood Elf list, you need to drop all the peripheral rubbish. The glade riders and Warhawks can all go, replacing them with more Glade Guard (you need at least a unit of 15 with the flaming banner in there) and some dryads and a second eagle. Mounting the sorceress is also a terrible idea.

Malorian
21-03-2012, 14:29
Your BSB is not allowed the Enchanted Shield, as he is not allowed to buy a mundane shield.

If you're looking for a really competitive Wood Elf list, you need to drop all the peripheral rubbish. The glade riders and Warhawks can all go, replacing them with more Glade Guard (you need at least a unit of 15 with the flaming banner in there) and some dryads and a second eagle. Mounting the sorceress is also a terrible idea.

He's not a bsb. I wish he was but then he also loses his bow and the hail of doom doesn't work on magical bows.

There is no way I'm dropping all the 'peripheral rubbish'. If I setup a battle line it will be crushed by any army out there. You face very different armies than I do.

If I really wanted to be competitive I would take the folding fortress and a massive unit of glade guard, but then I might as well play high elves.

TsukeFox
21-03-2012, 14:35
Your BSB is not allowed the Enchanted Shield, as he is not allowed to buy a mundane shield.

If you're looking for a really competitive Wood Elf list, you need to drop all the peripheral rubbish. The glade riders and Warhawks can all go, replacing them with more Glade Guard (you need at least a unit of 15 with the flaming banner in there) and some dryads and a second eagle. Mounting the sorceress is also a terrible idea.

Ya-it is even in the FAQ about the shield. Armor and helms are fine- just no shield.

Tom the rest was rather harsh- made me laugh too.

With the glamourweave talisman it is not such a bad idea to go mounted.

Ya kinda trisky to dispell before a miscast is resolved-do the words resolve miscast immediately after resolving spell poop up in the BRB?
If not then your opponent is right that he dispell after you cast a spell-delaying your miscast.

Where is a rules lawyer when you need one.

Malorian
21-03-2012, 14:40
Ya kinda trisky to dispell before a miscast is resolved-do the words resolve miscast immediately after resolving spell poop up in the BRB?
If not then your opponent is right that he dispell after you cast a spell-delaying your miscast.

Where is a rules lawyer when you need one.

Yes the miscast si after the spell is resolved. So had it been something like an augement then he would have little time and I could have rolled my 2+ to ignore first, but since dwellers takes a lot of rolling it gave him plenty time to declare it.

SkawtheFalconer
21-03-2012, 14:50
He's not a bsb. I wish he was but then he also loses his bow and the hail of doom doesn't work on magical bows.

HoD works with Asyendi's bane. It's a fairly common load-out for Wood Elf bsb.

Malorian
21-03-2012, 15:01
HoD works with Asyendi's bane. It's a fairly common load-out for Wood Elf bsb.

But it doesn't work with magical bows...

This is what I used to do until I got called on it.

TsukeFox
21-03-2012, 15:36
But it doesn't work with magical bows...

This is what I used to do until I got called on it.

Reread it.
You cannot use the ability of the bow with magic arrows.
You can use the bow normally without using the magic properties.

Malorian
21-03-2012, 15:42
Hmmm, I'll go reread it then...

MOMUS
21-03-2012, 15:47
Trust me, I REALLY doubted this when he said it but when I looked it up and read it for myself it's 100% clear. Maybe it should say that it has to be done at the end of the phase after all new spells are resolved, but it doesn't.
Either way it was an interesting game and I'm keen for revenge ;)

I dont doubt the wording im just not sure on the interpretation...


Yes the miscast si after the spell is resolved. So had it been something like an augement then he would have little time and I could have rolled my 2+ to ignore first, but since dwellers takes a lot of rolling it gave him plenty time to declare it.

From your wording here and the previous debate in the rules section it makes the game into a bit of a race to roll your dice, which is a bit wierd. I mean if he can declare to dispel at ANY time would you let him roll at the same time as you rolled for the miscast? Or even after it but before you could 'race' to pick up your dice again to roll for the ignore miscast effect?

But that aside, it was a good game :yes: One thing i like about the wood elf games is watching your movement (i mean the elves not you :shifty:), its the phase of the game that i wish to get better at the most.

Malorian
21-03-2012, 16:04
From your wording here and the previous debate in the rules section it makes the game into a bit of a race to roll your dice, which is a bit wierd. I mean if he can declare to dispel at ANY time would you let him roll at the same time as you rolled for the miscast? Or even after it but before you could 'race' to pick up your dice again to roll for the ignore miscast effect?

Yes it would be a race between him rolling his dice to dispel, and me starting the roll for my 2+ to ignore. Once I started my roll then it would be too late for him.

I'll be working on my speed-rolling ;)

scubasteve04
21-03-2012, 16:29
Either way it was an interesting game and I'm keen for revenge ;)

Any time, I am always up for a game. Really anxious to try out my disc sorcerer lord.

TsukeFox
21-03-2012, 16:35
Speed rolling? Who wrote a book with so many loop holes?? Hmmm

Why not get or make a dice tower? All the dice are rolled at once.

Further proper form dictates that:
Player1 does an action
Player2 reacts if they can
Player1 resolves said action if it is was not canceled
Player2 may preform an action.

Just to keep things neat and tidy-
Or speed dice rolling, might get ugly

dagreenmoonboyz
21-03-2012, 17:12
If your arguing this case then priorities must be set so that a player has time to react. So you are saying that player one cast spell then player two has chance to dispel. Which in the book it says in order player two has a chance to dispel THE spell, meaning the one being cast but then later under remains in play section it says remains in play may be dispelled at anytime ultimately losing priority in the spell sequence. I guess the ruling Malorian and his opponent came up with is technically correct but seems that you would **** a lot of people off. but no there is no need for speed rolling : P

TsukeFox
21-03-2012, 17:15
Just tossing out ideas man.

dagreenmoonboyz
21-03-2012, 17:17
Just tossing out ideas man.

In a round about way I am agreeing with you completely. The book sets an order then tosses in random crap you can do whenever i guess :shifty:

Akkaryn
21-03-2012, 21:24
Personally I think when the rules say "can be dispelled anytime" it means after that section of the phase. I.E Before you roll a spell or after the effects from that casting are resolved. As the miscast is part of that spell so to speak you would have to wait till after that has been resolved.

One could also argue as Throne was up at the time of casting that spell has already taken effect. I.E if it was a Flesh to Stone it was cast with Throne up so you would get the extra bonus toughness, as one part of the augment spell has taken effect I can't see the reasoning for it to be allowed to be dispelled before the entire effect is taken.

It reminds me about the Tzeentch Call to glory spell where the champion would attack with his stupidly high initiative then before any attacks back at him it would be dispelled so the 100vp's are not given up. Utter garbage.

Freeman
21-03-2012, 21:51
Malorian, would you mind explaining the role of the 10-strong glade riders in regards to the 5-strong ones?

Also, I'm curious about the circumstantes in which you'd charge an enemy unit.

Shimmergloom
21-03-2012, 21:59
re: If I really wanted to be competitive I would take the folding fortress and a massive unit of glade guard, but then I might as well play high elves.

lol.

tmarichards
21-03-2012, 22:13
Also, I'm curious about the circumstantes in which you'd charge an enemy unit.

With Wood Elves, you only ever charge something if you can do more damage to it in combat than from shooting, or if you want to try and snipe characters.

Malorian
21-03-2012, 22:30
Malorian, would you mind explaining the role of the 10-strong glade riders in regards to the 5-strong ones?

Also, I'm curious about the circumstantes in which you'd charge an enemy unit.

Two reasons: 1) for blood and glory I needed banners, and I wanted them in larger units to protect them. 2) I needed units large enough to keep my characters safe. In a unit of 5 they could kill 1 with mild shooting and then cannon the character (like what happened to my noble in this game).


I would charge if:
-I needed to kill a character
-I needed to break through a line (charge a support unit and over run to the other side)
-To break up a line (charge a flank and force a unit with frenzy to chase me)
-To protect myself from ranged attacks (my lvl 4 unit is more safe in combat than facing down a gunline)
-In desperation (my only hope to wipe out a unit is to break it and run it down)

thrawn
22-03-2012, 13:43
hey Malorian, i have been using my 8 strong unit of glade riders for 4 games in a row now, with my lord, and i am not taking them again i think. they almost never survive past turn 2, and if they do, they don't do anything. they can't charge anything (i had 8 of them with my lord charge the rear of a chariot . . . they were stuck there for 3 turns!) and they're shooting is sub-par. for less points you can take 5 scouts, which i think are better in almost everyway.

i started with small units of glade guard like you, but on monday i played a WE player with 2 hordes of glade gaurd and i gotta say was very impressed. his shooting was really effective, then had a 6 strong unit of treekin and 1 treeman to tie up my units and my opponents (we were playing a 3 way free for all, will post a small battle report here).

i'm thinking of something similiar, only more mobility, as i find i like my hero's riding GE way too much.

also, where does it say your BSB can't take a magic shield?

tmarichards
22-03-2012, 14:43
Q: A Wood Elf Battle Standard Bearer cannot use shields, does this
mean magical shields as well as a standard shield? (p53)
A: Yes

Hordes of Glade Guard are a terrible idea, just don't do it. It's a really really bad gimmick that any half decent list/player will mangle with ease.

Freeman
22-03-2012, 21:38
Thanks for the info gentlemen. It's good to know that woodies are still playable, albeit they're heavily restricted in their choices

Now... what would you do against, say, dwarves or O&G? Large units of tough models, template siege engines and, in the case of dwarves, tons of dispel dices and a non-negligible shooting phase.

thrawn
24-03-2012, 01:11
Q: A Wood Elf Battle Standard Bearer cannot use shields, does this
mean magical shields as well as a standard shield? (p53)
A: Yes

Hordes of Glade Guard are a terrible idea, just don't do it. It's a really really bad gimmick that any half decent list/player will mangle with ease.

i'm not disagreeing that hordes of glade guard are a bad idea, as on paper they are a terrible idea, but in practise they weren't bad. one mistake i make constantly, and this sounds aweful to say, is that i over estimate my opponents. to me, a horde of glade guard is a gimme, but the beastmen player seemed scared to charge them as he was convinced he wouldn't kill enough and they would be steadfast. hilarious! so my point is, psychology against the player is just as effectual as psychology in the game.

sulla
24-03-2012, 05:50
i'm not disagreeing that hordes of glade guard are a bad idea, as on paper they are a terrible idea, but in practise they weren't bad. one mistake i make constantly, and this sounds aweful to say, is that i over estimate my opponents. to me, a horde of glade guard is a gimme, but the beastmen player seemed scared to charge them as he was convinced he wouldn't kill enough and they would be steadfast. hilarious! so my point is, psychology against the player is just as effectual as psychology in the game.Stand and shoot from a horde of s4 will make a fair mess of beastmen, it's fair to say... but standing in front of them won't do him much better. The shame of 8th is that a bunch of 6pt skirmishers in front of those beastmen would have completely depowered those shooters.

tmarichards
24-03-2012, 10:59
Well, the psychology aspect appears to be more the Beastman player not realising that charging 2 chariots into the horde of Glade Guard ruins the entire army- gimmicks that rely on bad play by opponents to work should not be used.

Codiac88
25-03-2012, 05:40
tmarichards,

What's your issue with malorian? Seems as though you don't agree with much of what he thinks so what's the point in commenting. I recall similiar comments when he made that ogre horde list. You play very different styles so I don't see much point in telling him his lists are bad. If im missing something then I apologize.

tmarichards
25-03-2012, 07:47
I've no issue with him personally (and I apologise if it comes across that way), I just have the view that a lot of the advice he gives out is, well, bad. So, rather than get frustrated when other people start copying him, I make sure to post my opinions so that people can see the other side of the argument.

brother_maynard
25-03-2012, 15:06
tmarichards,

What's your issue with malorian? Seems as though you don't agree with much of what he thinks so what's the point in commenting. I recall similiar comments when he made that ogre horde list. You play very different styles so I don't see much point in telling him his lists are bad. If im missing something then I apologize.

in tom's defense (not that you need it tom) but doesn't it defeat the whole point of a forum if everyone restricted their comments to those of agreement? warseer could just have a "like" button and nobody would have any reason to talk at all.

TsukeFox
25-03-2012, 23:48
in tom's defense (not that you need it tom) but doesn't it defeat the whole point of a forum if everyone restricted their comments to those of agreement? Warseer could just have a "like" button and nobody would have any reason to talk at all.

**like**

**like**

Codiac88
26-03-2012, 03:28
Tom definitely doesn't require defense from me. I watch all three of you on youtube. Criticism is important, of course. I just think you probably could have just said you should take out the warhawk rider's and glade riders rather then saying peripheral rubbish.

Walls
26-03-2012, 05:35
Tom and Brian play in different competitive realms altogether though. Malorian's area is giant hordes of a trillion or nothing. Tom plays the UK system with smaller units, chaff, etc. I actually personally prefer Tom's method and playstyle. I actually think MSU is gonna make a comeback, just you watch!

Either way, no one is really "wrong". Not for their meta. I think Brian's list would get raped in SCGT for example... and vice versa.

TsukeFox
26-03-2012, 08:26
Tom and Brian play in different competitive realms altogether though. Malorian's area is giant hordes of a trillion or nothing. Tom plays the UK system with smaller units, chaff, etc. I actually personally prefer Tom's method and playstyle. I actually think MSU is gonna make a comeback, just you watch!

Either way, no one is really "wrong". Not for their meta. I think Brian's list would get raped in SCGT for example... and vice versa.

It is like extreme forms of politics- communist & fascist.

Neither side really willing to budge from their opposite point of views.

Jal
26-03-2012, 14:02
I think one of the main things is that the UK scene immediatly post 8th launch was the same, for a very short while - lots of 3 block armies.

Now, more often than not, if someone plonks down 3 big units in front of you with little or no chaff, you can start to count the vps. You simply chaff up 1-2 blocks, concentrate forces on the third, take it apart and rinse repeat.

I think it annoys Tom that there are some on the fourms that still preach the creed of "hordehammer".

That being said, Malorian's battle reports are fun to watch - for what they are - Malorian and his opponant running hordes at each other. Everyone one enjoys their hobby in different ways. Every now and then, I take my army into the local GW, and play a game of Hordehammer with someone there, it's a nice "switched off" break from the more cerebral "chaff hammer" the UK scene is close to

Djekar
26-03-2012, 16:47
I don't think I've heard so much speculating on what someone else thinks since my literature courses. Seriously, they are big boys, they can work it out (or not if desired).

What I really want to discuss is: Tom recently did a video where he showed his face - anyone else think he looks a tad like Mal? Long lost brothers? Bitter rivals created by the mad genius Dr. Suh? You decide!

brother_maynard
27-03-2012, 11:41
I just think you probably could have just said you should take out the warhawk rider's and glade riders rather then saying peripheral rubbish. this is probably true, but i kind of like it lol. he's got quite an arrogant british air about him that i used to think was really annoying but now it cracks me up.

"Tut, tut old lad! that's not how you play the Queen's Warhammer!"
*takes sip of tea*


What I really want to discuss is: Tom recently did a video where he showed his face - anyone else think he looks a tad like Mal? Long lost brothers? Bitter rivals created by the mad genius Dr. Suh? You decide!

i think Malorian looks way more like an uncle than a brother, especially when he had his beard.

Mal shows up at the family reunion- "Hey there sport! Your uncle Mal bought you a present! See? a giant horde of a bazillion executioners!" *ruffles Tom's hair*

*Pissed* "Executioner horde, Uncle Mal? Really? You know I don't rate them... Peripheral rubbish..."

Djekar
27-03-2012, 12:15
Mal shows up at the family reunion- "Hey there sport! Your uncle Mal bought you a present! See? a giant horde of a bazillion executioners!" *ruffles Tom's hair*

*Pissed* "Executioner horde, Uncle Mal? Really? You know I don't rate them... Peripheral rubbish..."

Hilarious. I love it!

TsukeFox
27-03-2012, 12:29
this is probably true, but i kind of like it lol. he's got quite an arrogant british air about him that i used to think was really annoying but now it cracks me up.

"Tut, tut old lad! that's not how you play the Queen's Warhammer!"
*takes sip of tea*



i think Malorian looks way more like an uncle than a brother, especially when he had his beard.

Mal shows up at the family reunion- "Hey there sport! Your uncle Mal bought you a present! See? a giant horde of a bazillion executioners!" *ruffles Tom's hair*

*Pissed* "Executioner horde, Uncle Mal? Really? You know I don't rate them... Peripheral rubbish..."

**LIKE**

Wow almost laughed tea out of my nose.

Malorian
27-03-2012, 13:02
There will always be those that don't agree with my advice. Some of it gets under my skin (mainly those not backed up by any logical thought) but the rest I honestly take time to think about.

As has been said Tom and I basically play in completely different environments. Around here the comp is so tame that it's basically non-existant, with the worst you see being something along the lines of 'no duplicate characters'. Around here hordes don't only do well, they dominate! I can't think of a single winning army since 8th edition that wasn't based around hordes.

In Tom's area I can see hordes going away due to comp, but you can also see things going away due to boredom. When powerful combos first come out people will jump all over them but then move on to other things after they have clubbed enough seals. A good example of this seems to be the whole 'what lore for a slann?' debate. Although the fewer hordes in Tom's area also guides his answer, it seems a lot of people that don't like lore of life is because it's boring, and nothing to do with the tactical uses of it.

So will my area go to MSU? I doubt it, I mean not completely. There will be those that get bored and will add more and more chaff until they get the 7th ed feel they like, but until comp changes (or is put in at all) hordes will continue to win tournaments.

Finally, should my advice be taken as the bible? Of course not! Not only can my 'teachings' be incorrect based on your meta, but other times I'm just plain out wrong. Just this week I learned that a unit can't move when it leaves a building, something I had never been called on before and something my group of gamers honestly thought was allowed. I welcome people to challenge anything and everything I say simply because a big part of the reason why I post battle reports is to refine my knowledge.

willowdark
27-03-2012, 17:04
I tend to think that there are two kinds of people who post on discussion boards. There are the ones who are here to learn and grow through a healthy discourse, and those that feel like they already have most of the answers and feel compelled to impose their opinions on everyone else. I honestly mean no disrespect with this, but when I see Tom post about getting frustrated because Malorian's advice is so bad that he has to say something about it, I can't help but wonder if he's taking his own advice too seriously.

Just an observation, and honestly no disrespect intended.

TsukeFox
27-03-2012, 18:00
There will always be those that don't agree with my advice. Some of it gets under my skin (mainly those not backed up by any logical thought) but the rest I honestly take time to think about.

As has been said Tom and I basically play in completely different environments. Around here the comp is so tame that it's basically non-existant, with the worst you see being something along the lines of 'no duplicate characters'. Around here hordes don't only do well, they dominate! I can't think of a single winning army since 8th edition that wasn't based around hordes.

In Tom's area I can see hordes going away due to comp, but you can also see things going away due to boredom. When powerful combos first come out people will jump all over them but then move on to other things after they have clubbed enough seals. A good example of this seems to be the whole 'what lore for a slann?' debate. Although the fewer hordes in Tom's area also guides his answer, it seems a lot of people that don't like lore of life is because it's boring, and nothing to do with the tactical uses of it.

So will my area go to MSU? I doubt it, I mean not completely. There will be those that get bored and will add more and more chaff until they get the 7th ed feel they like, but until comp changes (or is put in at all) hordes will continue to win tournaments.

Finally, should my advice be taken as the bible? Of course not! Not only can my 'teachings' be incorrect based on your meta, but other times I'm just plain out wrong. Just this week I learned that a unit can't move when it leaves a building, something I had never been called on before and something my group of gamers honestly thought was allowed. I welcome people to challenge anything and everything I say simply because a big part of the reason why I post battle reports is to refine my knowledge.

Note that mal did not deny or claim to be a relative to Tom.
Suspect-!

Malorian
27-03-2012, 20:57
I'm half German and half Welsh (Sinn and Griffith).

Anything is possible ;)