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Lord Squidar
21-03-2012, 07:32
Hi Guys,

so i got a wad of cash as a pressie and I am looking at what to do with it now for the hobby. I have a few ideas running around in my head, but essentially i want to play something that completely dominates in the close combat phase. All my armies (skaven, eldar) have been the kind where you are good in cc, but you need to pick your fights. I want to be the dude wading in there...

Anyways, that leaves me with a few armies, some marines, nids and daemons. I am allergic to marines, and something about the nids just doesnt do it for me. I think its because i love the Aliens films so much, I want to keep them seperate.

So daemons.

They have huge monsterous creatures, excellent infantry and a weird deployment rule. They are pretty cheap and mostly plastic, I think its the only 40k battalion that gives you over 1000 points in a box. I like the models even if I haven't seen them in real life (they are a bit unpopular aren't they?). I have a head full of conversion ideas and can't wait to get working on tentacled monstrocities from beyond the veil, but I am missing a few things I think.

Army wargear: the unit choices you can make are few and far between. I am used to being spoilt for choice in fantasy, but 40k seems the opposite. Only space wolves and dark eldar get that sort of wargear. My question is does this make it a bit boring after a while? My eldar are boring in terms of wargear but then again the exarchs all have something cool too.

HQ slots: Heralds heralds heralds. So many conversion possiblilities, but then again you never get to use them. Yes you can take 4 heralds, but then no greater daemons? I bugs me a little, so what should I do about this?

Fluff: I love all the daemon fluff, but sometimes I feel that magical beings from another dimension are just a bit out of place in a world filled with tanks and space ships. Its not a huge thing but there we are.

Tanks: they have none! Ok the soul grinder is a brilliant model, but there are no big fliers and predator tanks or these things.

So can you guys guide me in the right direction

Cheeslord
21-03-2012, 13:46
Well, my experience with Daemons (which i have been told is Wrong by the intarnet) is:

- there are quite a number of wargear options for heralds, daemon princes and greater daemons. Its the troops/elites that tend to just have the mandatory Icon, instrument and (=patronbonus) options (and sometimes even less).
- if you want more vehicles that can be used in a Chaos Daemon army, feel free to visit forgeworld - they arent cheap and some people apparently don't like you using them because they are not in your codex, but theres a number of wierd and wonderful Chaos daemon / CSM vehicles there. Most of the daemon ones are walkers, but thematically why should daemons ride around in a tank anyway?

- Speaking of themes, they aren't all that "sci-fi" (pretty obvious, sonce they can also be played in fantasy). I find this makes them more work to paint than a sci-fi style army (in my case Necrons) but you may prefer it.

I like taking heralds. You can always use daemon princes instead of greater daemons (although buying princes upgrades to make them comparable to greater daemons is not very points-efficient and they will never be quite as resilient). I like Chariot heralds as they are interesting to convert and are little self-contained threats for generally <100 points that the opponent has to deal with (OK they aren't that tough to kill but sometimes they can do surprisingly well). Particularly good in low points games.

I also don't, in general, like the models for the greater daemons. Especially the slaaneshi one which seems to have a choice of 2 comedy heads.

Gaming wise, the deployment rules mean you will just lose some games regardless of what you do or how good your opponent is - elements of your first wave will mishap (unless you are playing on a 10 foot square table with no impassable terrain) and your remaining army won't show up till turn 5 (and it will mainly be your assault daemons who then can't assault as the game will choose to end on turn 5). Fortunately this only happens rarely, but it requires less terrible rolling than other armies require to fail.

Power level wise the codex shows its age and has some internal balance issues, though it could be worse and a few special characters (mainly Fateweaver) are still good.


Mark.

Hawthorne
21-03-2012, 14:11
The thing you'll hear a lot in terms of being competitive is use heralds of tzeentch on chariots; which I'll admit is quite a good model (in terms of what it can do damage wise, what it can take and cost) but myself I'm not a fan. I generally take the units I like and leave it at that and just work on strategy to make it work (with the footnote that I take a few units that I really like then the rest of the army is generally setup to cover the faults of the previous units to an extent)...but that's just me, anyway on to your questions.

Wargear: On Greater Daemons the important thing is not make them horrendously expensive. For example I never take the plasma pistol equivalent for the Blood Thirster, and despite it's usefulness I rarely pay for the ability to shoot at seperate units because of the cost. Unholy might is hit or miss depending on which daemon and master of sorcery and sporofic musk are worth their weight in gold (just to pick out a few options).
I don't use heralds terribly often (although I love the masque and skulltaker) so equiping them isn't my forte. Generally speaking though, blood crushers are an awesome upgrade for khorne heralds (and fury of khorne depends on if you have ways of taking out walkers and stuff), chariots for tzeentch heralds are good (and equip them for how you want to use them to shoot), I suppose for nurgle heralds the paliquen (sp) is nice but I don't see much use for heralds of nurgle. For slaanesh I enjoy using a chariot with soporific musk and a few of the beef it up upgrades (cheap but flimsy)
For units musicians are generally a waste except they seem to work well (because of low amount of damage either way) with plaguebearers and possibly pink horrors. Otherwise the damage output and/or input is too high for ties to occur often.
Icons: I generally put one in each wave. They are very expensive and once the opponent knows how well they work that unit's target priority goes up quite a lot so use it on a unit that otherwise would receive a lot of fire (so it isn't gaining much) like blood letters, a unit that can take it (blood crushers, plaguebearers or horrors) or possibly a unit with very low priority (a 5 man horror unit not on an objective).
Fury of Khorne: I only take it if I think that unit will have trouble with walkers or there isn't any real anti-tank in the army.
Transfixing Gaze: It's cheap, I generally get it if I have 5 points left at the end.
Noxious Touch: Similar scenario to above. If the unit is for holding a back objective, don't bother, if they are going to be offensive sure.
Bolt of Tzeentch: In a small squad yes (so shooting at a tank isn't much of a warp fire loss) in a big unit maybe not (still not bad to have just in case) just be careful not to for-go tons of warpfire for 1 bolt.
Daemon Princes: Tons of options just be careful not to let them skyrocket in points. Wings are hit or miss (since they aren't cheap like for CSMs), iron hide is really good but loses use if you have tzeentch, etc. Just have a plan before you start buying all the upgrades.

I'm a big monster fan (why I started Daemons) so the only heralds I use (and not that often) are Heralds of Khorne on juggernaughts, the masque and skulltaker (on a juggy). I like the greater daemons too much. If that's the most effecient way to play, probably not, but I prefer using what I want to use rather than the best unit all the time.

Fluff: I like the fluff but it's hard to get wrapped in as much as some others. The fluff to me is more explanatory (what the daemons do and what the gods do), and half just coming up with an explanation for why they are here and why given armies might happen.

Tanks: (You're welcome) Sadly you are correct. The problem is the army is designed for 40k and fantasy so if they put a ton of tanks in the army it would only be useful for half of the use of the army (if that makes sense). Plus, like tyranids, the army isn't demanding on tanks (as much as I'd like my bloodletters in a land raider, it doesn't seem very fluffy having a rhino filled with daemons popping out of the warp...at least not on a regular basis).

Probably very long winded but I've never claimed to be good with brevity.
Anyway welcome to hell; hope you enjoy your stay.

Dark Primus
21-03-2012, 19:21
Daemons greatest vulnerbility is deep striking, making your army easy to kill off unit by unit and Deep Strike mishaps, lack anti-tank options, lack long range weapons in general, their Warp fire - standard infantry weapon lacks range only 18' and they too lack weapon options and they have only BS 3.

I do like Daemons, one of my favorite armies because they are different from all others, their codex was good when it came out but is outdated by today's codexes. For example they have barely any chance at all against a Dark Eldar army because DE are a very fast army and Daemons has very little to counter that.
And therefore I have shelved mine till they get a new codex.

Fawful
21-03-2012, 20:33
If you want any more advice I suggest visiting the daemons thread in the groups section of warseer. The first pages are out of date but some of the most senior daemon players reside there. Link (http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?156939-Daemons-Gone-Wild)

youngsamwise
21-03-2012, 21:14
If you are a fan of kitting things differently with wargear to suit your mood, I think the daemons may disappoint you in some ways. Most of the wargear options are either pretty good or pretty bad/overpriced and so while there are plenty of options in your HQ/HS slots for wargear, you typically take the same options all the time.

For example: you decide you want a Nurgle Daemon Prince. You have all these options and you try out the Nurgle prince a few times with different wargear. I can pretty much guarantee that by the end of your third game, he looks like this:
Mark of Nurgle
Wings (he was too slow for a cc monster without them)
Cloud of Flies (5 pts was an absolute steal!)
Noxious Touch (his best feature, and what makes him better than other cc princes)
Iron Hide (cause he costs so much you can't live with just a 5++)

So you wind up looking at all this wargear and all you really end up choosing between is which shooting attack to take, if any.

By the same token, a Lord of Change has a number of wargear options, but you pretty much need to take two or three of them to have any impact and now he is over 300 pts and you think "Why don't I just take Fateweaver at this point?"

The fun part of choosing a Daemon army isn't really in which wargear you are going to take because you end up with things becoming standard options and those couple of things you blow leftover points on. The fun is in how you are going to combine your units to cover each other's weaknesses and exploit each other's strengths (this is often through the unique characters.) In daemons, you don't just slap a list together because things are "cool" or "powerful." You can do that with blood angels or space wolves or GK and field a competitive yet fun list. Daemons don't have much synergy with each other, suffer from some really significant weaknesses in 5th like Anti-AV and of course a dangerous/unreliable deployment... but in exchange you get some of the most powerful choices in 40k.

Based on your original criteria, I think Daemons are a good choice for you, because no one kicks as much butt in cc as daemons. But don't get your hopes up about wargear options on princes and heralds as there really isn't as much variety as it appears at a glance.

Kevlar
21-03-2012, 23:07
Grey Knights pwn daemons in close combat. And they pretty much pwn everyone else in the shooting phase...

fluffymcfluff
21-03-2012, 23:15
Grey Knights pwn daemons in close combat. And they pretty much pwn everyone else in the shooting phase...

Thats funny, because my khorne army pwns GK in CC, and I'm fairly certain that they can't out shoot IG.

Cheeslord
22-03-2012, 13:43
Well personally the GK own me in close combat and shooting, but then I'm not very good, and if being able to beat grey knights was a criteria for choosing an arny then we'd have quite a small selection...

One good point about custom wargear options;- because most of them are Daemonic spells and the like then theres not reasonable way to represent them on the model, so you don't need to worry about WYSIWYG (iron hide, wings, marks and icons being the main exceptions).

Mark.

ErictheGreen
22-03-2012, 13:56
Grey Knights pwn daemons in close combat. And they pretty much pwn everyone else in the shooting phase...

blessing of the blood god says "Hi". fleshhounds of Khorne are now an excellent unit to use to tie up annoying grey knight squads.

"what's that, you have a force weapon and cleansing flame? say hello to my 2++, bitch!"

And likewise, Winged Khorne Demon Princes become a bugger. Just don't run them at a dreadknight. or the 1 other dark excommunication model (librarian?)

Infiltraitor
22-03-2012, 14:00
GK are at a disadvantage against Daemons in CC. They're far more likely to beat them with their guns. Daemons don't really care about power weapons or force weapons, will almost always out number knights and if you know you're up against the daemon hunters and don't bring a pair of thirsters with blessing of the blood god you're asking for it.

Lord Squidar
22-03-2012, 15:02
So based on all your wonderful responses, I went ahead and bit the bullet. Assembling my daemonic dudemens as we speak =)

S_A_T_S
22-03-2012, 15:28
Eeexcellent! Join usssss you will...

Remember that flamers are ridiculous in 40k and Fantasy, The Changling is well worth the 5 pts he costs, Greater Daemons are fun (and, in 40k only, worth taking at 200 pts or less) and the special characters come with some nasty abilities.
I love taking the Plaguefather as my greater daemon as he acts like some sort of HQ dreadnought that is very hard to kill (in my experience - I'm not a tournie player), has an big-blast weapon, breath of chaos (what makes flamers so good) and spawns annoying nurgling swarms every turn.
If you want more vehicles, Forgeworld really are our answer, with plague hulks and blight drones. I wish I could afford blight drones...

matt_17
22-03-2012, 20:02
A new acolyte has joined us... good.

I second the flamers comment above. 3 flamers might die without causing much harm in which case you've lost a whole 105 pts... or they might easily return 4-5 times their cost. Once you've hit someone with them hard once, the fear they inspire is hilarious too.

Lord Squidar
23-03-2012, 07:54
Well going steady on building my models. Not sure about the icon distribution, but I will have at least 2 for now, and skip them otherwise.

After having read the rules, I am more positive about the prospects. Daemonic assault is seen by lots of people as a major disadvantage, but I think its a huge boon.

Firstly its for free. Bloodletters are better than vanguard assault marines and only cant assault on the turn they arrive (which would be broken). They are also cheaper.
Secondly, you dont need to have a single transport in the army, saving you more points and allowing more nasty dudes.
Thirdly, icons make your deep striking dudemens better than Blood Angels Descent of Angels rule, ARMY WIDE. No one else can do that!!!
Lastly, if you ever happen to play the first mission in planet strike, which allows assault after deep strike, your opponent is boned completely.

Some other things i like is how much shooting horrors get!

Last thing for me to do for a while is chose a Herald. Its either a slaanesh, tzeentch or khorne one (skulltaker model)

p.s. I absolutely love the seeker models! Boob worms for the win!