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karse88
23-03-2012, 08:52
i was playing warhammer with a friend the other day. we started a smaller discussion about presentation of your army - are there any rules but houserules?... we couldn't find any :S ... he implied that you dont present anything before you put the unit on the table - this way your opponent has NO idea whats coming and must therefore plan setup more strategic... i found that highly unlikely, i have always setup my army after presenting ALL but magic and hidden etc...

im looking for someone who can tell me page in rulebook, the rule - if there is any... or simply state that its a house rule.

thanks

T10
23-03-2012, 10:19
It's mostly by convention. Most players consider magical items to be secret until revealed: This may be a hold-over from the 4th/5th edition battle magic cards.

-T10

Lyynark
23-03-2012, 12:59
The fact that there are items that reveal hidden units (assassins/fanatics/etc.) and magic items sets quite a strong precedent that such things are revealed only when activated.

BlackPawl
23-03-2012, 13:11
We play it also that we put the units one after another on the table and after deployment we declare what is what, where are the characters and which one is the general.
Upgrades like shields / spears / DHW etc. will be declared, but no magic items or hidden assassins / magic items.

GotrekFan
23-03-2012, 14:14
We disclose unit composition such as armament and troop type (savage orc, black orc, etc) and hero type (lord/ hero/ Mage and magic level if Mage) as they ate deployed, but magic items or purchased special abilities like bloodline powers are kept private.
However, while we generally don't ask all information is freely given.

While there is no rule that I can think of, it strongly implied that players use closed lists so that the effects of the skull staff, vauls unmaking, etc are of use. Open list are more of a tournament thing anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Grimgormx
23-03-2012, 15:29
There are no rules that say if you have or you dont have to present your army, its just a good manner, you should never say what objects, magic banners or even what level are your wizzards because your strategic may be based in that, so dont reveal until used, also you shouldnt say who is the general until he kicks into action. bul also if you want, you can tell to your friend all what you have in your list.

You should say what something is, if you are using a model that doesnt represents 100% the unit, as an example I have 60 metal BO, with choppas and big chopas, when you were abble to give them shields I just decided that I wont spent more money in that unit, so if I use them I always told to my friends if they are or arent carrying shields.

Brother Haephestus
23-03-2012, 20:10
Like BlackPawl, we also declare after setup by starting at one end and list units, characters, etc. I will make sure my opponent knows who the champions, banners, etc are in the units, how they're armed, etc. All magic items however are not revealed until after use. There are items that counter or eliminate MI use, and items that reveal such things, so I feel no need to tip my ENTIRE hand. "Fluff logic" says that the enemies have probably scouted each other before the fight so stupid stuff like who has spears or handweapons, etc., are fine by me to reveal. However, if I had an opponent that refused to tell me anything at all, I would be fine with that. I don't recall anything that says I have to reveal anything at all, with this being a WYSIWYG-style game anyways. However, if my opponent attempted to proxy without a reveal, I would hold him to the WYSIWYG standard.

vorthrax
23-03-2012, 20:19
My gaming group plays "open-list" (present list to opponent before deployment) because all of the local tournaments and Texas GTs are open-list and most of our games are practice for the tournament scene.

EDIT: Things that are supposed to be hidden by rule (like assassins) are kept secret.

yabbadabba
23-03-2012, 20:41
No rules regarding this, no centrally defined etiquette. Do what you think is socially right with your friends.

belgarath97
23-03-2012, 20:43
It's mostly by convention. Most players consider magical items to be secret until revealed: This may be a hold-over from the 4th/5th edition battle magic cards.

-T10

Like he said it's mostly convention, case in point my local area doesn't declare anything until each unit hits the table. IE. I grab a unit of Clanrats, put them on the table, and say "35 Clanrats, Full Command." or some such.

I don't think it says anywhere in the book that you have to do it in any specific manner.

AMWOOD co
24-03-2012, 02:59
There are a few things which will be revealed before or during deployment.
A character's wizard level will be revealed when you determine spells. This is before deployment.
Certain special rules, eg. Chosen of the Gods; Been There, Done That; etc.


A general understanding of what the models carry should also be explained as some people use proxies or the models are not 100% accurate (eg. Chaos Warriors may have shields, but not everyone models them with halberds and shields) or are ambiguous ("Are those ensorcelled weapons or lances?")

My group finds it easiest to reveal everything that isn't paid for with magic item allotments. So magic banners, virtues, big names and magic items of all kinds are covered as 'magic item allotment' and are thus hidden. However, other powers, such as Vampire Powers, Slaan upgrades, Chaos gifts, etc. we concluded left distinct enough visual clues as to be revealed at deployment. Now, we agreed with this back in 5th, when a lot of these things weren't around, but we have maintained the idea. It's too nitpicky to say 'Oh, that upgrade can be hidden but that one can't.' or 'They might mistake that for something benign.' Our usual justification, wings, usually determines whether you can or can't hide it. Slaan get the downside just to be consistent.

karse88
25-03-2012, 18:24
hmm funny :) all besides my one friend do it different here :) .. im working at his store, teaching smaller kids the basic rules of warhammer, while learning them myself :b .. all my friends go to the store to play, challenge or help others and we always present the army as "this is what you can expect to battle" then the opponent knows "when i put my HPA in this corner, he still has room on the other side for flamers as a counter" etc .. if you get what im saying? :b ... your way (and the store owners way) sound more fun though.. then you need to think a bit more before deploying ..

Warrior of Chaos
27-03-2012, 01:45
There are a few things which will be revealed before or during deployment.
A character's wizard level will be revealed when you determine spells. This is before deployment.
Certain special rules, eg. Chosen of the Gods; Been There, Done That; etc.


A general understanding of what the models carry should also be explained as some people use proxies or the models are not 100% accurate (eg. Chaos Warriors may have shields, but not everyone models them with halberds and shields) or are ambiguous ("Are those ensorcelled weapons or lances?")

My group finds it easiest to reveal everything that isn't paid for with magic item allotments. So magic banners, virtues, big names and magic items of all kinds are covered as 'magic item allotment' and are thus hidden. However, other powers, such as Vampire Powers, Slaan upgrades, Chaos gifts, etc. we concluded left distinct enough visual clues as to be revealed at deployment. Now, we agreed with this back in 5th, when a lot of these things weren't around, but we have maintained the idea. It's too nitpicky to say 'Oh, that upgrade can be hidden but that one can't.' or 'They might mistake that for something benign.' Our usual justification, wings, usually determines whether you can or can't hide it. Slaan get the downside just to be consistent.

I think this best sums it up how we go about doing it in our game group.

Brother Haephestus
27-03-2012, 04:40
Besides - ask yourself. Do you REALLY want me to reveal EVERYTHING at the setup?

(Visions of me in a scanty thong, lightly oiled, sends shudders of terror down my OWN spine. Sheesh - more rolls than a German bakery here ....)

Wildchild200
27-03-2012, 12:40
In every 'official' game i have played army lists are not revealed at all. The models you put down are meant to be WYSIWYG so obviously they are revealed at deployment but anything else is hidden. Also the latest army book (Vampires) kemmler has an item that forces the opponent to reveal secrets. So it is still a mechanic that is in use.

Banville
27-03-2012, 13:01
There's no rule in fantasy about wysiwyg and as such I feel it's entirely appropriate and polite that when deploying you give your opponent the heads up about shields and halberds, where your General and BSB are and stuff like that. However, iformation like whether the BSB has a magic banner, whether my lord has a magic weapon etc. I feel shouldn't be voluntarily revealed. However, if an opponent has the wherewithal to ask if my characters are equipped with anything special then I thihnk it's only polite to tell them.

Rhellion
27-03-2012, 13:11
There's no rule in fantasy about wysiwyg and as such I feel it's entirely appropriate and polite that when deploying you give your opponent the heads up about shields and halberds, where your General and BSB are and stuff like that.

Incorrect, kind of. There is a rule in Fantasy as stated on p88 that the majority of the unit must be armed correctly. Most events have additional rules as well stating that characters must be armed correctly on their models (if he has magic armor, his model must have the mundane equivalent armor on him).

Artiee
27-03-2012, 17:30
Our Players place the unit. If they think that there will be question on the unit, they will say what the unit is and how its equiped. At the end of the deployment, we point out our BSB, our General and any casters.

All other items are kept secret.

BEEGfrog
27-03-2012, 20:54
I go out of my way to point out anything that isn't wysiwyg. But anything consistent with the model as tabled isn't mentioned until used.

If there is something where I know there may be a controvery I tend to raise the issue before the battle. This has two benefits, the discussion can take place without the battle being dependent on the decision going one way and you can mislead an opponent as to your strategy if you bring up an issue you don't intend to use.

SanDiegoSurrealist
27-03-2012, 23:40
We play it also that we put the units one after another on the table and after deployment we declare what is what, where are the characters and which one is the general.
Upgrades like shields / spears / DHW etc. will be declared, but no magic items or hidden assassins / magic items.

We do the same at my local , but I have heard of other shops that have open list rules (you can ask to see opponets list at anytime).

Warrior of Chaos
28-03-2012, 01:01
Visions of me in a scanty thong, lightly oiled...

I think I threw up a little bit in the back of my throat at this one Brother...

PROMISE ME that you'll never get that in depth on a deployment call-out for one of our games!:skull:

RanaldLoec
28-03-2012, 21:16
At least write down who your general is to avoid incidents of oh he's dead well he wasn't my general the guy next to him was.........:shifty:

As for playing against an old up gamer in a thong to quote Harry BRING IT ON.

I would go one further using my Slaanesh themed warriors of chaos wearing a pouch, nipple tassles covered in strawberry sauce head to toe with a scanty clad lady boy sprawled at my feet.

Nothing like getting into character for leading you armies.

Warrior of Chaos
29-03-2012, 00:56
^Wrong on sooooo many levels. LMAO:D

Glen_Savet
29-03-2012, 05:31
At least write down who your general is to avoid incidents of oh he's dead well he wasn't my general the guy next to him was.........:shifty:

As for playing against an old up gamer in a thong to quote Harry BRING IT ON.

I would go one further using my Slaanesh themed warriors of chaos wearing a pouch, nipple tassles covered in strawberry sauce head to toe with a scanty clad lady boy sprawled at my feet.

Nothing like getting into character for leading you armies.

Sounds like my normal game nights! ^_~

Brother Haephestus
29-03-2012, 06:04
Heh.

And here I was worried that I was being a bad influence. Clearly, I am but the amateur here.

RanaldLoec
29-03-2012, 08:00
I was going to start a Khorne army but my local gaming club banned me from using khorne.

I seem to remember there being a problem with dismembering the yoofs and beheading beaten opponents while showering in the blood of a thousand innocents. What's the issue its just like extreme larping but with a bit of blood. :confused:

I tell you its a health and safety society, its PC Gone mad. (oh listen to me I sound like a daily mail reader).

Evil Hypnotist
29-03-2012, 08:09
I tend to let the convention be dictated by my opponent, I play people who are very informative when they place their units and, conversely, people who would rather you didn't realise you were facing daemons until they were ripping you apart in combat ;) One player did start telling me his magic items once but I informed him that wasn't necessary (mainly because I didn't want to tell him mine!). The way I describe my units is how I would imagine the enemy scouts would inform their superiors e.g. "about 20 warriors, with a hero".

samael
29-03-2012, 08:29
Besides - ask yourself. Do you REALLY want me to reveal EVERYTHING at the setup?

(Visions of me in a scanty thong, lightly oiled, sends shudders of terror down my OWN spine. Sheesh - more rolls than a German bakery here ....)

This brings back memories of a game I've played with a mate during the hight of summer on my blisteringly hot attic. We both ended up playing in nothing more than our shorts :eek: . The airconditioning got installed soon after.

On topic, in our group we always tell eachother what units we have but not any magic items or hidden models that they might have, it's all part of the suspense.

DaemonReign
29-03-2012, 14:11
In our group we usually decide Scenario/Match-Up prior to building our respective lists.
Those lists, however, are closed until the actual units are deployed.
Wizards and their magic levels are disclosed in the pre-phase when their spells are determined.
After deployment is done (i.e. Characters placed) each side typically goes through their army unit by unit (i.e. 'In this unit I have my BSB and General.. And here I have a Hero.. etcetera)
The rest is basically disclosed based on whether or not you'd actually be able to see *it* from across the no-man's land.
So equipment like Spears/Shields/GreatWeapons but definately not Magic Items/Weapons or such things.

SlaaneshSlave
29-03-2012, 22:35
Magic items are hidden, everything is stated. I think Chaos Marks should be declared too.

I don't want to win because my opponent thought he was charging skavenslaves, but they were actually Queek's Stormvermin.

I do like winning because after my opponent used his dispel scroll & last dispel die I cast Plague with 2 extra Warp Tokens and a Powerscroll. Or he has another magic protection item I did not count on.

It should be a fair fight... Well, as fair it can be sneaky rats!

orc_maddness
29-03-2012, 22:43
Hmm, Me and my family play it that we provide each other with out army lists and we allow each other to build around each others army. At the end of the day, if your opponent does not give you any information on his army at all, how would you know he is not cheating, and what would stop them from stating that one character is a general from another when you destroy one?

Lyynark
30-03-2012, 04:33
Simple trust and common decensy?
You can always provide the list after the battle so your opponents can verify there nere no foul play.

DragonArmy
02-04-2012, 06:21
I have a clear distinction to make:

There shouldn't be a difference between the answers "wysiwyg" and, "i announce what the unit is once the unit is placed down at the beginning of the game." The point of wysiwyg is that the unit is saying (and reminding everyone) what is in the unit.

And if i play an opponent who at the beginning of the game when I ask, "wait, does that unit have a full command and great weapons?" he responds, "sorry, learn my armies models, i don't have to tell you," I will pick up my army and leave.

I would also discourage competitive older players from trying to gain an advantage on newer players through trying to "hide" information that is supposed to be evident when the unit is placed.

Arctaeus
02-04-2012, 09:25
Every Warhammer game i've played I show my army list to my opponent before the game starts, and he/she shows me their army list

We're all very friendly here :)

orc_maddness
02-04-2012, 14:45
best way to go !

Grimgormx
02-04-2012, 21:47
This brings back memories of a game I've played with a mate during the hight of summer on my blisteringly hot attic. We both ended up playing in nothing more than our shorts :eek: . The airconditioning got installed soon after.

On topic, in our group we always tell eachother what units we have but not any magic items or hidden models that they might have, it's all part of the suspense.

Oh My God, we dont need Striphammer!!!!!

Yowzo
03-04-2012, 12:41
Every Warhammer game i've played I show my army list to my opponent before the game starts, and he/she shows me their army list

We're all very friendly here :)

I always have a spare army list if the opponent wants full disclosure, in case he prefers to keep magic items secret, I'll just tell him (and expect to be told) at least the loadout on each unit like, say, 40 halberdiers with full command or 30 savage orc big'uns with double choppa, standard and musician.

charlarino
03-04-2012, 15:07
we like to show each other our lists before a game. and we always go through our troops after deploying, stating things such as 20 warriors with shields and a sorceress, 35 warriors fc etc etc...
(I play dark elves)

wilsongrahams
03-04-2012, 20:18
Presenting your army should be a case of pointing out everything is as it appears, which characters are heros and which are lords, who is your general, and which are wizards etc.

As to the 'these clanrats are stormvermin' issue - if not using the correct models this should have been pointed out from the start before the game began. Occasionally I take my archers without command, and I make a special case for my general and before deployment I will state 'Everything is what it should be, armed as it is, except my archers have no command and my general does not have a shield but it is part of his magic armour instead' - simply because my general has a shield but I tend to take a 2+ armour which does not allow shields - this clears up anything that is not onvious from simply looking at the models. The magic items themselves I do not reveal.

Whilst I do not condone proxy armies, I think the onus is on the proxying player to ensure no mistakes are made and that there is no 'your own fault for not remembering etc' so just mention as you move each unit 'my chosen are going to move up here...' etc just to keep gently reminding your opponent what they are. Games are played to have fun, not to win.

Hallock
03-04-2012, 21:46
So far the tourney's I've played in make you write copies of lists sometimes 10 or more. (This is stupid in my opinion, the judge or any facilitator should have one extra list to show your opponents. I will show my list anyway at request but I'll only ask someone to see their list when they have revealed that item or character in question or special rules I am not familiar with. You can also find out from other people that have already played your opponent but again this is disconcerting sometimes. I may bend it a little if I ever made it to play the best player in the world at a champion tourney LOL..!

Chicago Slim
07-04-2012, 12:24
I think that local tournaments make a difference on how local areas tend to play.

Here in Chicago, we have Adepticon. Adepticon has been consistent for years now: You army goes on a display tray, and anything that's not easily identified ought to have some kind of card, indicating what it actually represents (the best example of this that I recall was a few years ago, when someone had some Dogs of War pikemen in his Lizardman army-- which he had remodeled from Kroot!) So, at Adepticon, your opponent gets to see all your models before you deploy, and gets a copy of your list at the end of the game.

And that's how most Chicago players seem to like it. :)