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jack da greenskin
23-03-2012, 14:36
Basically, Don't turn this into blind hating, because I think an honest, unbiased answer will be better, but...


Why do GW, and their staff, avoid the term "wargaming" (along with wargamer, and wargames) and instead refer to it as "the hobby" (and hobbiest)? It's not even like they're synonyms, hobby is a broad term refering to loads of stuff, so "the hobby" is completely inaccurate.

So yeah, it has been annoying me, I've heard people say it for years, only just realised why it bothers me. Any ideas? Any official information (10 commandments, staff training etc) that use this terminology?

Egaeus
23-03-2012, 14:59
My best guess would be that it is because they have always styled themselves as model manufacturers rather than "game piece producers". The fact that they produce a game that their models can be used in is a secondary consideration.

And not to "hate" but one of my major complaints over the years has been that it the game is secondary to the model production...and it is hugely disappointing to me because it seems if they really wanted to produce a good game they have the talent to do so.

ToXin
23-03-2012, 15:01
Think of their target demographic - children, whose parents have the purse strings...

Hobby = Wholesome passtime,
Wargaming / violence, not so much.

kyussinchains
23-03-2012, 15:08
there are also a significant percentage of people who collect, paint and model citadel miniatures without playing any of the games, they are still hobbyists, but are not wargamers

Korraz
23-03-2012, 15:31
It's their claim to uniqueness and way to justify bold lies.
There are many wargames.
But only one The Games Workshop plc Hobby.

shelfunit.
23-03-2012, 15:43
Similar to what Korraz said. Describing their product as "The hobby TM" avoids the possible questions from little Timmy about "other" Wargames - and so reduces the likelyhood he may discover that "The hobby TM" is infact a small sub-section of the much larger Wargaming hobby as a whole.

Inquisitor Kallus
23-03-2012, 15:58
It's their claim to uniqueness and way to justify bold lies.
There are many wargames.
But only one The Games Workshop plc Hobby.

Im with Korraaz on this one (shock horror). Apart from the way to justify bold lies. How so?

Ironically the retail side of GW sees the hobby as anything to do with miniatures and gaming. So things like converting, painting, events etc. However I believe this was to focus on sales and so on. Very rarely was anythig ever done that did not require the use of miniatures in some way. A lot of 'managers' even disallowed people to sit and read their BL books in store and so on. When was the last time anyone heard of a big background competition or something similar (apart from BL)? It has pretty much always been paired to miniatures in some way.

The Hobby was a thing that people involved in GW would do. It was also described as their hobby so staff would not try to 'push' their own version of the hobby onto others, but help them with what they (the customer) wanted. you would be surprised at the number of staff who would promote stuff they personally thought was cool... . Anyway I believe the real Hobby is what people make of it, and theres nothing wrong with staff showing other aspects of the hobby. My hobby? Well at the moment theres very little, save DH RP every so often on a Sunday where I GM and make up the missions so to speak. I love the background and pretty much used to have an encyclopedic knowledge of 40k and its derivitives backgrounds (Space Marine/Epic, BFG, Necromunda) because I loved reading about them in rulebooks, codices and WD (which there is far too little of in theses days). I believe I am still involved in the hobby, and hopefully soon will re-garner my miniature/gaming interest.

As a number of people have said wargaming is different from the GW Hobby.

Bloodknight
23-03-2012, 17:27
Wargaming has a really bad rep over here.

de Selby
23-03-2012, 17:42
Why do GW, and their staff, avoid the term "wargaming" (along with wargamer, and wargames) and instead refer to it as "the hobby" (and hobbiest)?

Hobby, Hobbier, Hobbiest. :D

Honestly I'm more of a hobbyist than a wargamer, since I don't actually play the wargames that often. I'm not far off being a 'GW hobbyist' in that I mostly collect and paint GW stuff with only occasional purchases from Rackham, Reaper, Gamezone etc. over the years.

Rikka Rakka
23-03-2012, 17:46
I think it's because there is more than just the playing of the games involved in the hobby. There's construction, conversion, painting, sculpting, even writing that all go into the same pot. Personally, I rarely game, like REALLY rarely, but I love to convert, build and paint. So to call me a wargamer would be outright inaccurate.

Skaven13
23-03-2012, 18:38
I've always seen it as marketing, setting themselves up as their own little thing. In essence, it is a hobby, as one poster pointed out, that's multi-faceted. You have gaming, collecting, painting, and terrain making (albeit not so much terrain making now as it was in the past). But you could say that about "regular" wargaming. Which brings it back to marketing. It's THE Games Workshop hobby, or THE hobby, and it's a good way to set themselves apart from other companies, get their name imbedded in the marketplace and in people's minds while at the same time diverting attention from "other hobby games" which are also wargames.

Also, the "little Timmy" aspect really doesn't apply here IMO. That hasn't always been their primary demographic or market. I have been in this "hobby" for nearly 20 years now, and I remember the term "Games Workshop hobby" being thrown around and the phrase "Hobby Game" plastered on their boxed games even back then, while the term "wargame" was pretty much avoided.

Misfratz
23-03-2012, 21:52
... hobby is a broad term refering to loads of stuff, so "the hobby" is completely inaccurate..I'm with others who point out that there's a lot more to it than playing wargames. On the GW site they break it down into Collecting, Modelling, Painting and Gaming. I think that's fair enough. Obviously, for some people the gaming comes first, but everyone comes with their own approach.

It is a hobby of mine, just as knitting is, etc

Ozorik
23-03-2012, 22:35
The easiest answer is to simply google wargaming and then google GW hobby (or just GW) and compare the results. Quite simply GW want to create their own insular corner of wargaming with as few points of contact with the rest of the hobby as they can manage. The easiest way to do that is to pretend that they are the entirety of the wargaming.

Mastodon
23-03-2012, 23:39
I dont play the game, so to call me a wargamer would be wrong. Thats what it comes down to really in my eyes.

Lars Porsenna
23-03-2012, 23:51
IMHO it's about branding and marketing. It's not GW's job to advertise for other wargames or figure manufacturers, and getting cynical over it is silly. I work for a big, multi-billion dollar corporation, and the same sort of thing goes on there as well.

Damon.

jack da greenskin
23-03-2012, 23:58
I think it's because there is more than just the playing of the games involved in the hobby. There's construction, conversion, painting, sculpting, even writing that all go into the same pot. Personally, I rarely game, like REALLY rarely, but I love to convert, build and paint. So to call me a wargamer would be outright inaccurate.

I personally consider all those part of my wargaming hobby, but I get your point. Still, it's not "the hobby", its miniature painting, miniature gaming, miniature building, sculpting and writing. Just saying.

Commissar Vaughn
24-03-2012, 01:17
Ive painted roughly 300 figures so far this year. A few conversions and kit bashes. Made a large house for a country gent, and other bits of scenery like walls and so forth.

Ive played no more than half a dozen games in that time. Which as many in the last half of last year.

And yet I would never call myself a hobbyist. When somebody asks me "what are your interests and hobbies?" I do not reply that I am a Hobbyist.

I am a wargamer.

This is becouse the term hobbyist is pretty meaningless; I also build model railways. And I read a lot (to the point that its probably more accurate to consider my wargaming and railway modeling merely as an extension to my reading). I consider both of these hobbies. All that painting toy soldiers cant make me a hobbyist unless the other two do as well. In which case hobbyist just means " a person with one or more hobbies", and therefore tells people nothing about you.

I would say that if you have the same hobby as me, but dont consider yourself a Wargamer, youre probably a military modeller.

Hite
24-03-2012, 03:53
hob·by/ˈhäbē/
Noun:

1.An activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.
2.A migratory Old World falcon (genus Falco) with long narrow wings, catching dragonflies and birds on the wing.

I believe one of those definitions fits what we do when we play, paint or whatever.

Hendarion
24-03-2012, 07:30
I don't see "the hobby" to be "wargaming". If someone asks me what is my hobby, I tell him that "tabletop" is, not "wargaming". Why? Because wargaming indicates I am mostly a gamer. I am not. I am collector and painter first of all. That is my hobby. Gaming happens rarely and although it is enjoyable, I enjoy watching and painting miniatures more than gaming. I don't have a problem with GW calling it "the hobby".

Spectrar Ghost
24-03-2012, 07:33
hob·by/ˈhäbē/
Noun:

1.An activity done regularly in one's leisure time for pleasure.
2.A migratory Old World falcon (genus Falco) with long narrow wings, catching dragonflies and birds on the wing.

I believe one of those definitions fits what we do when we play, paint or whatever.

"Or whatever" being the operative term. It applies to any activity from fly fishing to restoring antique cars for fun. It's just marketing, so I can't bother to get riled up about it, but proclaiming GW to be "the hobby", singular, does seem like hubris.

Nocculum
24-03-2012, 07:38
Wargaming is also synonymous with electronic wargames, such as COD etc.

jack da greenskin
24-03-2012, 08:43
Wargaming is also synonymous with electronic wargames, such as COD etc.

I disagree. Maybe, if you're really loose with your definitions, rts games can count. But wargaming, I believe, is just a shortened form of "miniature wargaming", a hobby with toy soldiers.

alphaecho
24-03-2012, 08:44
I have pointed out this on other forums in similar discussions. Using the term "Hobby" with one particular facet of wargaming may be catching on. I do not play Flames of War but their latest version includes a book called "Flames of War Hobby". Its not just GW (possibly to the chagrin of those who believe GW have replaced money as the root of all evil).

On a personal level I am more of a modeller/painter than wargamer so 'hobbyist' could apply to me. Sounds clunky though!

Commissar Vaughn
24-03-2012, 09:28
Its also vague!

"Im a hobbyist" only tells people that you have a hobby, not what your hobby is so its pretty pointless defining yourself as such. So Mr hobbyist which do you collect? Stamps or Classic Cars?

zoggin-eck
24-03-2012, 10:24
I've always though it was lame, and would never use the term myself, but it doesn't bother me. GW just like to sell their stuff as "their" hobby. They've long since abandoned any mention of other aspects and have never been shy about it. So many companies do the same, selling an "experience". Sad but true, this sort of thing is all over the place. Apple don't like to mention other computers, and sells the Apple experience where every product is "revolutionary" and allows you to do things that "only" an iWhatever can do. Take a look at official Nintendo websites and magazines, it's worse than GW.

Peraps "wargaming" is a bit vague, but I don't think it has anything to do with the "war" part, considering their main games both have "war" in the title! "Wargame", to me, still has an element of stuffy old historicals, and old men with beards in the spare room sitting at the table to me. Nothing against that, but perhapsit's not an image they want to portray?

AndrewGPaul
24-03-2012, 10:49
I disagree. Maybe, if you're really loose with your definitions, rts games can count. But wargaming, I believe, is just a shortened form of "miniature wargaming", a hobby with toy soldiers.

Not really, no. Advanced Squad Leader, Command and Colours, Combat Commander and hundreds of others area wargames without a miniature in sight. Miniatures wargames are a subset of wargames.

Why do people get wound up about this? Nobody gets so upset about Carlsberg claiming to be the best lager in the world.

Nocculum
24-03-2012, 10:57
I disagree. Maybe, if you're really loose with your definitions, rts games can count. But wargaming, I believe, is just a shortened form of "miniature wargaming", a hobby with toy soldiers.

I have lost count of the times I've said 'I'm a wargamer' and I've been pressed with 'oh, computer games and stuff?'

Lest I not mention the incident when my previous employer assumed I meant I sat in dark rooms talking to American teenagers in trash speak about head shots with a headset...

But I guess each to their own - I put it on my CV 'development of stratagems and analytical tactician ;)' and had to change it from 'Wargaming' to 'Hobby Gamer'.

Chaos and Evil
24-03-2012, 11:16
As said above, it's because of marketing concerns.

Verm1s
24-03-2012, 12:12
I don't see "the hobby" to be "wargaming". If someone asks me what is my hobby, I tell him that "tabletop" is, not "wargaming".

One of my other hobbies is cookery. That involves tabletops too!

Commissar Vaughn
24-03-2012, 13:49
Nobody gets so upset about Carlsberg claiming to be the best lager in the world.

Thats becouse Carlsberg's claim is a barefaced lie and so obvious that it needs no rebuttal. ;)

Terms like "The Hobby" and "hobbyist" are vague, unhelpful and distortions of the truth.

Spectrar Ghost
24-03-2012, 13:54
Why do people get wound up about this? Nobody gets so upset about Carlsberg claiming to be the best lager in the world.

Personally I find there's a difference between saying or implying a company is the best at what they do (a subjective statement) and saying or implying a company is the only one that does what they do (an objective statement). There is also a difference for me between "the hobby" (again, an implication of uniqueness, objectively false) and "the hobby" (implies that one needs no other hobby, which is subjective).

Still can't be too miffed about it.

scarletsquig
24-03-2012, 17:38
Ah, the age-old problem of how to carefully pick your phrasing when trying to explain to people what your hobby is.

I call it tabletop gaming if I figure the person will have a clue about what I'm talking about.

That way, if the person has no clue what I'm talking about and get it wrong, they simply assume I mean that I like to play Chess and Backgammon a lot, which is a little bit closer to reality than me saying "wargaming" and people assuming I sit around all day screaming at my (non-existent) xbox.

If they go on to say "Like that Games Warhammers shop with all the screaming kids in it?" (the most common response) I go on to say "pretty much, but I buy my stuff from other companies that are cheaper and make stuff that isn't just for kids". If they be a douche about it, I just mention that it's an artistic and social hobby and that most people meet up for game and go for a drink after. Soon gets them back-pedalling if you can hold your ground and shrug it off.

More often than not, I simply say I like painting when people ask me what I do in my spare time, and leave it at that to avoid having to bother going on the defensive.

Weirdly enough, I've had a *much* easier time explaining that I'm a fan of My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic to people. I think it's because it doesn't require explanation and is utterly outlandish and eccentric.. so people file it under "hipster/geek" rather than "nerd/dork".

Sean Drake
24-03-2012, 17:53
They want to separate themselves from wargaming in "Fortress GW" so there is as little comparison as possible between there products and everyone else's, in the hope no one notices the massively overinflated prices for the models the paints the glue etc oh and the shoddy rules systems

The bearded one
24-03-2012, 18:04
On a related note; GW is a scheming, evil, truth-twisting barefaced liar of a company.

stroller
24-03-2012, 19:41
Hi - I'd like to buy an apple/ ford car/tesco finest meal for two.

Sure Sir, delighted - this IS the apple/ford/tesco store after all. But before you pay, I'd just like to draw your attention to the existence of PCs/chevrolets/walmart.....

you see - it doesn't work. It's a marketing tool designed to focus your attention on one company's product lines only. And - guess what - other people do it too.

Grimtuff
24-03-2012, 20:09
Hi - I'd like to buy an apple/ ford car/tesco finest meal for two.

Sure Sir, delighted - this IS the apple/ford/tesco store after all. But before you pay, I'd just like to draw your attention to the existence of PCs/chevrolets/walmart.....

you see - it doesn't work. It's a marketing tool designed to focus your attention on one company's product lines only. And - guess what - other people do it too.

Obvious strawman is obvious.

yabbadabba
24-03-2012, 20:21
As said above, it's because of marketing concerns. This. Its more indepth that that, but essentially it is this. Anyone who thinks GW wants to distance themselves from the wargaming hobby obviously hasn't spent anytime around GW, the wargames hobby or wears tinted blinkers.

Angelwing
25-03-2012, 01:17
Thats becouse Carlsberg's claim is a barefaced lie and so obvious that it needs no rebuttal. ;)


Not so. The advertising tagline is:
Probably the best beer in the world ;) :p
Exchange the word beer for lager in some countries.

Hendarion
25-03-2012, 08:22
One of my other hobbies is cookery. That involves tabletops too!
While that might physically be true, if you google the word "tabletop" you'll find Warhammer ranked above cookery ;)
Especially in Germany (where I live) the word "tabletop" has only a single meaning (since it isn't a native word).

ehlijen
25-03-2012, 08:55
This. Its more indepth that that, but essentially it is this. Anyone who thinks GW wants to distance themselves from the wargaming hobby obviously hasn't spent anytime around GW, the wargames hobby or wears tinted blinkers.

Or has played the German version of Space crusade were Galaxy Safe Guards shoot Robotlings with stun lasers.
Sure, redefining themselves as The Hobby is part of it. But trying to emphasise the creative aspects of the game as oppossed to the destructive ones to placate parents is also part of it.

Ozorik
25-03-2012, 09:39
This. Its more indepth that that, but essentially it is this. Anyone who thinks GW wants to distance themselves from the wargaming hobby obviously hasn't spent anytime around GW, the wargames hobby or wears tinted blinkers.

I have, I have, I don't. If they don't want to artificially differentiate themselves why call themselves THE hobby? I have no doubt that it is ultimately about branding but I always lose respect for any company which pulls this sort of crap, and that includes Battlefront.

The Carlsberg analogy is flawed as Carlsberg don't pretend that they are the only lager in the world.

yabbadabba
25-03-2012, 09:46
Nor do Carlsberg talk about other beers. The Carlsberg example is a good one, as taking offense at it being "probably the best lager in the world" is as incomprehensible as taking offense at GW calling their range "The GW Hobby".

Ozorik
25-03-2012, 09:47
As I said the Carlsberg analogy is flawed, given that they actually acknowledge that other lagers exist.

yabbadabba
25-03-2012, 09:49
As I said the Carlsberg analogy is flawed, given that they actually acknowledge that other lagers exist. So do GW, they have never denied the existence of other wargames or products. However there is no need for them to advertise the fact, is there?

Vos
25-03-2012, 09:57
Language effects the way people think, so describing it as a hobby is less likely to put off the (significant minority) of parents that might stop little Timmy getting into something called WARgaming. Also, as others have already eloquently stated, it conveniently cuts out the alternatives in the market that little Timmy or an ill informed but enthusiastic parent might come across through t'internet. It also increases the "unique, special club" feel and may very subtly promote loyalty to the GW brand.

Nothing wrong with any of this, its just good marketing. No need for anyone to get upset by it? Many GW employees play other games outside "the hobby" they just won't obviously talk about it (or want you to talk about it) in the public space of a shop dedicated to GW!

Vos

zoggin-eck
25-03-2012, 11:23
Games Workshop call it "The Games Workshop hobby" not just "The Hobby" anyway. I find this abnoxious, but hardly something worth getting worked up about. Like most companies, they just don't make it a point of mentioning other products. Other than the silly "best miniatures" line, they don't really slag off others, either, which is nice for anyone who tried to read Sega and Nintendo magazines in the early 90's.


As I said the Carlsberg analogy is flawed, given that they actually acknowledge that other lagers exist.

But GW have the whole "GW make the best miniatures in the world" line. Sureley this is acknowledging other miniatures?

Ozorik
25-03-2012, 16:02
However there is no need for them to advertise the fact, is there?

Much like there is no need for GW to describe themselves as THE hobby; Its dishonest.

GW claiming that they make the best miniatures is standard marketing gibberish that virtualy every manufacturer does. I can't think of any other company (in any field) that actively tries to pretend that there aren't any alternatives out there which is what 'The Hobby' is all about.

yabbadabba
25-03-2012, 16:20
Much like there is no need for GW to describe themselves as THE hobby. They don't, they call it the Games Workshop Hobby, and when they refer to the Hobby that is what they are referring to. Its called marketing, and I am really surprised that people seem to have fallen for it hook line and sinker.

The reasons have been posted here; for the majority of middle class parents (and the media) the idea of little Jimmy getting into wargames is philosophically (religiously for some) and morally questionable. However calling it a hobby, with all its middle class associations of rewarding, time well spent, socially beneficial, requiring of some intelligence, loyalty etc is absolutely the right way to calm down a mum who's little darling has just picked up a box of daemons covered in skulls. It also helps justify the price in their minds, especially with the middle class relating price-to-value-to-valued.

This really is a non-criticism based on people's over sensitivities, a need to attack the big fish in the pond, a very few over-zealous staff, and probably a little embarassment. GW does nothing to deny the existence of the wargames hobby (a simple look at WHH will confirm that in someway they actually promote it, and support it by not producing historical minis), and a great deal of the staff, current and ex-, including the design studio, have many bacon sandwich stained fingers in other wargames products, companies and projects. GW has no obligation to acknowledge other wargames in its sales channels, nor does it claim to be the first wargame, the creator of wargaming or the owner of wargaming.

GW rightly deserve criticism for a variety of things; this isn't one of them and its about time the community moved on to be frank.

Dryaktylus
25-03-2012, 17:40
GW simply don't see their recent games as ordinary Wargames, so why should they use the term for themselves?


Warhammer 40,000, the tabletop battlegame of the far future

And they're not alone with this:


Warmachine is a fast-paced and aggressive 30 mm tabletop miniatures battle game

They used to have Wargames they actually see as such (Horus Heresy, Battle for Armageddon and Doom of the Eldar), so it's not that they avoid the term for some sinister reasons:

136248

If they would be afraid to scare children (or their parents) with the term they would surely avoid things like "... there's only war!" and "Island of Blood" on their books/boxes.

Ozorik
25-03-2012, 17:42
They don't, they call it the Games Workshop Hobby

Isn't what that I have been trying to say all along? GW attempt to pass themselves of as the whole rather than the part that they actually are. It is dishonest and it is arrogant and that is what annoys me about it.

yabbadabba
25-03-2012, 17:48
Isn't that I have been trying to say all along? GW attempt to pass themselves of as the whole rather than the part that they actually are. It is dishonest and it is arrogant and that is what annoys me about it. You have just ignored everything that has been said in preference to your own view on things. Fine, discussing this with you is pointless to carry on.

Ozorik
25-03-2012, 17:54
In fairness the same could be said of you. You have clearly not understood why I find this so objectionable.

yabbadabba
25-03-2012, 18:06
In fairness the same could be said of you. You have clearly not understood why I find this so objectionable. I have had to deal with this criticism since 1994, and your points here are no different to the vast majority of other people who have moaned about this; its not based on facts, understanding of business or marketing or anything else, you just don't like it and you will not acknowledge any of the relevant points that answer your criticisms - which have all been addressed.

I understand why you find it so objectionable, because Advertising Land pounds us with similar messages everyday, but there is no basis for it other than your personal feelings and objections. I am not going to argue that your feelings are wrong, but I have countered every attempt you have made to bring facts to back up those feelings. Now there is nothing left to debate.

Sgt John Keel
25-03-2012, 18:12
They don't, they call it the Games Workshop Hobby, and when they refer to the Hobby that is what they are referring to. Its called marketing, and I am really surprised that people seem to have fallen for it hook line and sinker.

Honestly, what bothers me about ‘The Games Workshop Hobby’ or ‘The Hobby’ as a shorthand, is that the term has a connotation of Games Workshop wanting to own and define what is my hobby. They don't have that privilege, and it feels like an invasion of my integrity. Even if it is just marketing. Avoiding the term wargaming can be done probably as effectively with a small ‘h’.

I would have thought that you, that often seem to extol the virtues of breaking free of the Games Workshop mould, would sympathise.

In reality, I virtually never see the term except on forums and threads like this, so it doesn't really affect my enjoyment of life and my hobby.

The bearded one
25-03-2012, 19:28
Isn't what that I have been trying to say all along? GW attempt to pass themselves of as the whole rather than the part that they actually are. It is dishonest and it is arrogant and that is what annoys me about it.

I think you're just reading too much into it.

yabbadabba
25-03-2012, 19:37
Honestly, what bothers me about ‘The Games Workshop Hobby’ or ‘The Hobby’ as a shorthand, is that the term has a connotation of Games Workshop wanting to own and define what is my hobby. They don't have that privilege, and it feels like an invasion of my integrity. Even if it is just marketing. Avoiding the term wargaming can be done probably as effectively with a small ‘h’. And yet aside from wanting you to buy their products only (a reasonable situation) GW encourages everyone to put their own spin on things. There is no GW fun police.

I would have thought that you, that often seem to extol the virtues of breaking free of the Games Workshop mould, would sympathise I advocate it most strongly, I just don't look for excuses to have a go at GW, there are enough reasons as it is without making wormcasts into molehills.

Some of the answers are on here, there are others. But as they say, you can take a horse to water...

stroller
25-03-2012, 19:53
From the investor relations page:

"The Games Workshop Hobby
Collecting, painting, modelling and gaming … with the best model soldiers in the world."

And from the business model page: "We call these Games Workshop Hobby centres because they show customers how to engage with our hobby of collecting, painting and playing with our miniatures and games." (My bold & italics)

Inquisitor Kallus
25-03-2012, 19:58
Isn't what that I have been trying to say all along? GW attempt to pass themselves of as the whole rather than the part that they actually are. It is dishonest and it is arrogant and that is what annoys me about it.

They dont. They call it the GW hobby, because thats what it is. Wargaming is a general term for a grouping of war games. There is also the GW Hobby which consists of purely GW things. Quite a few people participatw in the GW hobby and dont otherwise wargame. I wouldnt consider myself a wargamer, rather a GW Hobbyist. I have tried a few other games but I dont play them

Verm1s
25-03-2012, 20:34
They dont. They call it the GW hobby, because thats what it is. Wargaming is a general term for a grouping of war games. There is also the GW Hobby which consists of purely GW things.

This sounds weird to me, staking a 'hobby' around a single business. I don't think I could call my mentioned cookery the Sainsburys Hobby, even if that was the only place I shopped for ingredients. (And - maybe appropriately - what a poor, hobbled hobby it would be if I did!) Or DIY, the B&Q Hobby. Book reading, the Waterstones Hobby. Etc. etc. etc.

The bearded one
25-03-2012, 20:52
This sounds weird to me, staking a 'hobby' around a single business. I don't think I could call my mentioned cookery the Sainsburys Hobby, even if that was the only place I shopped for ingredients. (And - maybe appropriately - what a poor, hobbled hobby it would be if I did!) Or DIY, the B&Q Hobby. Book reading, the Waterstones Hobby. Etc. etc. etc.

on the other hand I and almost all hobbyists/wargamers/whatever in my local group buy GW mini's, paint, brushes, glue, terrain, and regularly play in their shop. Pretty much all aspects of warhammer are available from games-workshop, including a place to buy, meet and play, which organicly makes warhammer wargaming/hobbying very GW-centric.

shelfunit.
25-03-2012, 21:35
on the other hand I and almost all hobbyists/wargamers/whatever in my local group buy GW mini's, paint, brushes, glue, terrain, and regularly play in their shop. Pretty much all aspects of warhammer are available from games-workshop, including a place to buy, meet and play, which organicly makes warhammer wargaming/hobbying very GW-centric.

Whilst true, it doesn't change the premis of what Verm1s was saying. You can do all that (although grocery/DIY centric) with own brands at the shops he mentions.

major soma
25-03-2012, 22:06
It can be traced to their origin as Games Workshop /Citadel they made miniatures to begin with and also provided other companies products at first. As they developed they realized that yhey could make rulesets to suit their miniatures. It is difficult to move away from that mind set. At least that's how it looks to me.

zerodemon
25-03-2012, 22:44
When I was working in the store, the line I was fed was that wargaming refers only to the act of pushing little men around on a board. The truth of it is the stores are designed around quickly showing prospective customers every aspect of the GW hobby so that they might become enamoured with one or more of these aspects. They are roughly divided in to three areas.

Painting and modelling
Wargaming
Background

Whenever we'd run an intro game, it would start with the game, which would be directed towards a) showing off the models and b) creating a narrative story that wasn't really heavy on rules. We'd use descriptive words and situations from some of the books to describe what was happening in that moment. Once they were all amped up from that, we'd give them a painting lesson, direct them towards the books and show them straight to the boxed game, avoiding at all costs higher priced, lower value products except for those already painted with no price attached. Riding on a wave of coolness, we'd get them to buy a game, a paint set or a book as a gateway drug, and coax them in to a booked beginner game or in-depth painting lesson to show them the ins and outs of the hobby.

GW is heavily focused on recruitment. It is their number one tenet. Referring to what we do as "the hobby" is more appealing to a prospective gamer, who may fear being seen as a dork if he's engaging in wargaming (something thick skinned veterans like us have become used to.)

The real question is where GW have gone wrong with this attitude? It's pretty straightforward. Stores should be focussing on recruitment (which they did and did well when I was working there.) Head Office should be working on retention. Constantly increasing prices, poor quality control and a monthly magazine that has become little more that a catalogue are poor motivators for anybody to stay in the hobby. To old warhorses, we forgive these mistakes for as long as we can bear, flaking away a little more each year. For the newly blooded 14 year old with his 10 quid a week pocket money, GW swiftly becomes untenable and uninteresting when they realise that girls have much more to offer them than tiny, expensive plastic figures, finding it easier to drop the hobby entirely than to hide it in the corner and pray that their new girlfriend doesn't notice it until she's too emotionally invested to leave them for being an immense nerd (like I did.)

Inquisitor Kallus
25-03-2012, 22:55
This sounds weird to me, staking a 'hobby' around a single business. I don't think I could call my mentioned cookery the Sainsburys Hobby, even if that was the only place I shopped for ingredients. (And - maybe appropriately - what a poor, hobbled hobby it would be if I did!) Or DIY, the B&Q Hobby. Book reading, the Waterstones Hobby. Etc. etc. etc.

Yep, because my hobby is GW, NOT any other type of wargaming. For me the hobby also includes reading BL books, RP etc.. . Feel free to think what YOU want to think,but this is MY hobby

The bearded one
25-03-2012, 23:02
Whilst true, it doesn't change the premis of what Verm1s was saying. You can do all that (although grocery/DIY centric) with own brands at the shops he mentions.

If taking cookery as an example, with cooking one doesn't use the food, kitchen, recipes and dining table of the company one buys from and it doesn't lend itself to be associated with a specific brand. If one plays warhammer, all the aspects are centered in the same company and in its shops, all aspects: all the way from the miniatures and paintingsupplies, to gamingtools, fluff and literature, down to space to play and meet opponents. Every aspect required is centred in that company.

GW sells the entire package, not just a part of it, and so sensibly GW likes to call it "The warhammer hobby" and sell the entire experience themselves, instead of saying "all the miniatures you need to wargame! - paint-dice-terrain-tapes-templates not included".

Ozorik
25-03-2012, 23:21
I have had to deal with this criticism since 1994, and your points here are no different to the vast majority of other people who have moaned about this; its not based on facts, understanding of business or marketing or anything else, you just don't like it and you will not acknowledge any of the relevant points that answer your criticisms - which have all been addressed.

Oh really. Also you have completely failed to address my criticism of this as you can't seem to see what my actual criticism is.

Not much point in posting in this thread again though, being talked down too really justifies me spending time here.

Hendarion
26-03-2012, 05:53
Yep, because my hobby is GW, NOT any other type of wargaming. For me the hobby also includes reading BL books, RP etc.. . Feel free to think what YOU want to think,but this is MY hobby
Mine too. I'm not interested in any other kind of miniatures, neither games. The only thing that interests me is Games-Workshop material. Even further only WH40k material and even further only Eldar material. So I couldn't only say I'm a GW Hobbyist, but further narrow it down to that I am an Eldar Hobbyist.

shelfunit.
26-03-2012, 10:58
If taking cookery as an example, with cooking one doesn't use the food, kitchen, recipes and dining table of the company one buys from and it doesn't lend itself to be associated with a specific brand. If one plays warhammer, all the aspects are centered in the same company and in its shops, all aspects: all the way from the miniatures and paintingsupplies, to gamingtools, fluff and literature, down to space to play and meet opponents. Every aspect required is centred in that company.

Whilst, again, true - I don't have to play Warhammer with GW models, or paraphanalia (sp?) either. As you say these things can all be purchased from and in GW owned shops, but much like the cooking I can use other ingrediants (Also I can get everything including the kitchen sink from IKEA, but thats a different story ;) ). Mantic also provide all the books, dice etc, but do not describe themselves as "The Mantic Hobby TM".


GW sells the entire package, not just a part of it, and so sensibly GW likes to call it "The warhammer hobby" and sell the entire experience themselves, instead of saying "all the miniatures you need to wargame! - paint-dice-terrain-tapes-templates not included".

As above - so do a number of other gaming companies, without sounding so isolated.

EDIT: I'm not sure how it is in Holland, but in the UK "own brand" products are highly promoted by the big supermarkets and whole minute long adverts are devoted to chefs like Jamie Oliver using solely them in varoius recipies.

Hendarion
26-03-2012, 11:31
Whilst, again, true - I don't have to play Warhammer with GW models, or paraphanalia (sp?) either.
Well, if you want to play Warhammer in a GW store, then you do have to. :p
And honestly, Warhammer (40k) isn't known to be such a balanced system that everybody wants to play it and even uses other miniatures for that. ;)

Tokamak
26-03-2012, 11:37
'Wargaming' implies that Warhammer is a game within a genre which in turn acknowledges the existence of competitors. Calling it 'THE hobby' implies that there's nothing else.



EDIT: I'm not sure how it is in Holland, but in the UK "own brand" products are highly promoted by the big supermarkets and whole minute long adverts are devoted to chefs like Jamie Oliver using solely them in varoius recipies.

Dutch grocery Stores are even more formulaic than British ones.

zoggin-eck
26-03-2012, 12:01
Um, perhaps to GW, playing GW games with their miniatures is indeed the "GW hobby", rather than playing with toy soldiers as a whole? What on Earth is wrong with that? Grating to hear, yes, but get over it guys. I don't think that avoiding the word "wargaming" is doing them any harm, and for whatever reason, they seem to think that the "GW hobby" line does do them good. I rather expect that they have people better at marketing than the average whinger (myself included) on the internet, and wouldn't go down that route for no reason. In my day job I sell timber and hardware, and there are certain phrases I can and can't use when describing what we do, despite what I think about it. I'm likely to get fired if I say we sell wood, rather than timber, for instance. (Exaggerating, perhaps, but I've known enough people to get called up on it).

In all these years I've never felt that GW care about owning the hobby as a whole, it's more that they just don't seem that interested in other games and hobbies. I'm fine with that. They run a company based on a few games and fewer worlds/settings, and just focus on them. Playing Privateer Press games with PP models is hardly the GW hobby, is it? Again, with the video game example, Nintendo and the like don't seem to care about other mobs out there, they just don't really mention the others, and focus on going on about their own games/systems.

Sureshot05
26-03-2012, 12:24
It's because the hobby is more than just wargaming.

It's modelling
It's painting
It's collecting
It's reading
It's wargaming

That's "the hobby" and you can pick and choose which bits are your hobby.

jack da greenskin
26-03-2012, 13:35
It's because the hobby is more than just wargaming.

It's modelling
It's painting
It's collecting
It's reading
It's wargaming

That's "the hobby" and you can pick and choose which bits are your hobby.

No... It's not. It's a hobby, but not "the hobby".

AndrewGPaul
26-03-2012, 15:20
Reading this thread has given me the strange urge to consume a flask of Weak Lemon Drink. :)

Verm1s
26-03-2012, 16:51
Shelfunit and Jack da Greenskin have the right of it, I say. (And Zerodemon raises a couple of points, too)

I can go a bit further with the supermarket analogy. And a bit more nuts, which hopefully illustrates the point. I may not be able to buy kitchens and tables there, but then you can't buy rooms and tables from GW either. ;) I can buy cookbooks, pans, utensils, tablecloths and probably a hotplate, though!
I'm sure some people could satisfy themselves with that, the idea of sticking with one shop (their first shop?) for a variety of food and equipment. Maybe even let it define them ("YOU might define a cookery hobby one way but MY hobby is The Sainsburys 'Food Of The World' Aisle Hobby!"); convince themselves that 'the shop' appreciates them personally for it; or even that it owes them for their loyalty! But I'll say again that it sounds to me like someone hobbling themselves. Why not take even a small look around at shops that may have or offer:

Added variety and choice
Cheaper products
Better quality
Better equipment
More freshness
More personal service
Less marketing guff

... and a wee bit less preoccupation with keeping a stranglehold on their market share?

Coasty
26-03-2012, 17:25
But GW have the whole "GW make the best miniatures in the world" line. Sureley this is acknowledging other miniatures?

It does show that they've never seen anything made by Dragon, though.

Sgt John Keel
26-03-2012, 17:30
Um, perhaps to GW, playing GW games with their miniatures is indeed the "GW hobby", rather than playing with toy soldiers as a whole? What on Earth is wrong with that?

Obviously things are a bit intermingled, with the Hobby Centres and all, but I would expect it to be GW's business and my hobby. They don't seem to get too happy when someone tries to encroach on their side of the fence, do they? :p

I don't really get the whole stigma associated with the word ‘wargaming’, but then the US view of the N-word is fairly alien to me too.

Verm1s
26-03-2012, 18:34
I went off on a bit of a tangent with my other-company soapboxing, there; but I think a large part of it still applies. As far as I can see there's a bizarre psychological disconnection going on. People here are distancing themselves from other wargamers - and mini painters, and sci-fi/fantasy enthusiasts - in favour of association with a shop, a single business. (with a term that said business uses to hook children) What's wrong with identifying yourself as a wargamer who prefers 40K; or a mini collector or painter who concentrates on GW minis? Why on Earth the insistence that a shop is your hobby? To use another analogy, it's like becoming angry and denying that you're a classic car enthusiast, when someone questions you on your collection based solely on Morris Minors!

The bearded one
26-03-2012, 18:42
Strawman comparison.

I doubt anybody here would get angry if someone were to call him a wargamer, instead of a hobbyist or GW hobbyist.

Gazak Blacktoof
26-03-2012, 18:44
Obviously things are a bit intermingled, with the Hobby Centres and all, but I would expect it to be GW's business and my hobby. They don't seem to get too happy when someone tries to encroach on their side of the fence, do they? :p

Very few businesses do.

As a few reasonable people keep pointing out "the GW hobby" is a package of products the company sells, which they market as a total hobby package. By all means take offence at their marketing lingo if you see fit, but if you know its marketing patter and already feel free to branch out beyond "the GW hobby", what does the grumbling get you?

Sureshot05
26-03-2012, 18:59
No... It's not. It's a hobby, but not "the hobby".

But in answer to your original question, for GW "The Hobby" is called that because it has multiple elements, and wargaming is only one aspect of it. And to be fair to GW, calling it "The Hobby" is not necessarily ignoring competitors either, but the combinations of the universes, the literature, the modelling and the games is what defined "The GW hobby." Similarly, Flames of War hobby is different because of the historical input and the history of the events which GW's hobby will never be able to touch on. They are both seperate and related hobbies, like brothers.

Sgt John Keel
26-03-2012, 20:03
As a few reasonable people keep pointing out "the GW hobby" is a package of products the company sells, which they market as a total hobby package. By all means take offence at their marketing lingo if you see fit, but if you know its marketing patter and already feel free to branch out beyond "the GW hobby", what does the grumbling get you?

Because whining is my other hobby. No, but seriously: marketing is not immune to criticism. Identifying something as marketing is not a valid counter–argument. Claiming something is marketing does not absolve the business of any commitment to truth. Marketing can be good, aesthetically pleasing and honest.

Edit: Anyway, in my personal narrow world–view, a hobby is something that works as an outlet for your creativity and analytical skills. Cookery, gardening, painting, etc. can be hobbies. As can video gaming, or watching movies, but for the majority of people I would classify those as pastimes.

According to that definition, buying Games Workshop miniatures, assembling them according to the instructions and playing with them according to Games Workshop rules is just as much as a hobby as assembling an IKEA table and putting a tablecloth and a candle on it. Not at all.

Now, taking that IKEA table and using it for something new and unexpected, I think that could qualify (see Ikeahackers). In a similar vein, converting GW models qualifies.

I recognise that Games Workshop does promote (some of) the creative parts, and probably do a decent job of it too. And yes, you can obviously be creative inside a Hobby Centre, using GW products. But to be creative is to not let GW dictate (as opposed to inspire) what you do. And when they don't do that, it's not theirs any more, and when they do, it's not a hobby.

So there, the concept of the "The Games Workshop Hobby" seems dishonest to me. And is thus bad marketing. And deserves criticism.

The bearded one
26-03-2012, 21:11
And yes, you can obviously be creative inside a Hobby Centre, using GW products. But to be creative is to not let GW dictate (as opposed to inspire) what you do. And when they don't do that, it's not theirs any more, and when they do, it's not a hobby.

Your argument sounds damn convoluted. I don't get it. How exactly is GW dictating what I do by using the term "The Hobby"?

Inquisitor Kallus
26-03-2012, 22:05
Your argument sounds damn convoluted. I don't get it. How exactly is GW dictating what I do by using the term "The Hobby"?

Theyre not, for some reason a number of people here have a HUGE chip on their shoulder and feel that Games Workshop are being dishonest/lying/whatever. Go be IKEASainsburyist hobbyists by all means, i'll carry on being a GW hobbyist thankyou...

Sgt John Keel
27-03-2012, 01:22
Your argument sounds damn convoluted. I don't get it. How exactly is GW dictating what I do by using the term "The Hobby"?

Maybe it is. I'm probably over thinking stuff as usual. But I don't think that was what I said they were doing. My point was that there can be no such thing as a hobby dictated by someone else what it should be. Drawing may be a hobby, connect–the–dots isn't (unless you're connecting the wrong dots, perhaps).

Is playing football a hobby? Competitive archery? I don't think so, because you're following someone else's rules. So how is it a hobby when you follow Games Workshop's ‘rules’?

(And yes, I realise my definition of a hobby is narrower than the dictionary's, and I'm probably crazy.)


Theyre not, for some reason a number of people here have a HUGE chip on their shoulder and feel that Games Workshop are being dishonest/lying/whatever. Go be IKEASainsburyist hobbyists by all means, i'll carry on being a GW hobbyist thankyou...

Sigh. It's like being on one of the more rabid Apple fansites. Do I like Apple? Yes. Do I buy their products? Yes. Do I whine about Apple? Yes, absolutely. Because they're not perfect. Do I recognise other companies may do some things better than Apple? Yes. And it grates on me enormously when I go to these sites, and people are literally gleeful when Apple wins court cases against other companies, when other companies fail. What good does that do to anyone?

I'm not sure if your last sentence does anything more than show you're not even trying to understand what I'm saying.

And I may have a bit of a chip on my shoulder, because of annoying QC problems I've had with their metal, finecast and Forge World products in the last half year, but there doesn't seem to be any interest in any nuanced discussion anyway. So let's just write dismissive one–sentence remarks. Honestly, I don't even know why I'm arguing this, it just makes me feel bad. I hardly know what I'm arguing any more.

(Does the cold blue theme make discussions seem less warm and human?)

The bearded one
27-03-2012, 02:01
Maybe it is. I'm probably over thinking stuff as usual. But I don't think that was what I said they were doing. My point was that there can be no such thing as a hobby dictated by someone else what it should be. Drawing may be a hobby, connect–the–dots isn't (unless you're connecting the wrong dots, perhaps).

I am still unsure in what manner they are dictating what my hobby should be. I guess it might be true if a string of other assumptions about the "The Hobby" conundrum are assumed to be true, such as the assumption that fiendish GW uses this term to keep the less-informed customer unaware that there are other companies out there. Sneakish psychological abuse! GW must have a sizable portion of R&D devoted to subtle mindgames-research. Note how they always use D6's and not D10s and such to prevent you from thinking of other games, like D&D!


and people are literally gleeful when Apple wins court cases against other companies, when other companies fail.

It'd certainly be a remarkable day when people here are happy about a company failing that isn't GW. Look at this very thread; it is about GW using the description "The Hobby", and GW is called out as being dishonest and deceitful, for the use of a simple description. There are things to get upset about with GW, why fling mud at everything? I guess what I'm saying is that while GW has significant faults, which most of us recognise as such, they do make and write stuff we enjoy (and while maybe not the best mini's in the world, they do release large amounts of new products with consistently high quality), so can we for once not demonise trivial GW-related things?

Hendarion
27-03-2012, 06:24
Why not take even a small look around at shops that may have or offer:
I did. And I am not interested. Some other colour brands, yea. But miniature-wise there is only a single company that interests me. You know, it's like being a fan of BMW, Ferrari or Mercedes. Maybe even Manchester United, FC Barcelona or who knows. You don't need to like other clubs. Yea, it means you like football, same as it means I like miniatures, but I don't like all of them, I just like GW. Period.

What GW calls their marketing isn't an issue for me. I define my hobby being "tabletop" or "WH40k". I do it the way I like and I give a damn what the company calls it or how other people would call it.

shelfunit.
27-03-2012, 07:45
I am still unsure in what manner they are dictating what my hobby should be. I guess it might be true if a string of other assumptions about the "The Hobby" conundrum are assumed to be true, such as the assumption that fiendish GW uses this term to keep the less-informed customer unaware that there are other companies out there. Sneakish psychological abuse! GW must have a sizable portion of R&D devoted to subtle mindgames-research. Note how they always use D6's and not D10s and such to prevent you from thinking of other games, like D&D!

Well, you may want to convert your minis using non-GW parts - if you are only able/want to play at a GW shop, well tough. This is how they dictate their version of this hobby to you. Until you have any inclination to try something new you won't realise how restricted you are.


It'd certainly be a remarkable day when people here are happy about a company failing that isn't GW. Look at this very thread; it is about GW using the description "The Hobby", and GW is called out as being dishonest and deceitful, for the use of a simple description. There are things to get upset about with GW, why fling mud at everything? I guess what I'm saying is that while GW has significant faults, which most of us recognise as such, they do make and write stuff we enjoy (and while maybe not the best mini's in the world, they do release large amounts of new products with consistently high quality), so can we for once not demonise trivial GW-related things?

Hahahahah. There are many, many more posts on this forum indicating a hope for the end of companies like Mantic, CHS etc than there are for GW to fall. You seem to be confusing those of us who predict the decline of GW for those who actually want it. These are two very different groups, the latter of which has little or no representation on this forum.

Hendarion
27-03-2012, 08:19
Now, taking that IKEA table and using it for something new and unexpected, I think that could qualify (see Ikeahackers). In a similar vein, converting GW models qualifies.
That might be your view, but it isn't the truth. A hobby doesn't need to be creative or innovative to qualify as a hobby. Your hobby pretty much may be assembling Ikea stuff. Same as collecting stamps. There is nothing new or unexpected to it. Still it is a hobby, because a hobby is what people prefer to do regularly in their free time. That's all what qualifies for a hobby, nothing else. Calling it hobby or pastime isn't of any difference as long as both is enjoyed. You may want to downgrade what others are doing with pleasure as "pastime", but the only thing that does is throwing a bad and ignorant light on you. So be careful when attacking other people's pleasures.

The bearded one
27-03-2012, 11:22
Well, you may want to convert your minis using non-GW parts - if you are only able/want to play at a GW shop, well tough. This is how they dictate their version of this hobby to you. Until you have any inclination to try something new you won't realise how restricted you are.

Here's the kicker; Gw using the term "The Hobby" is not forcing these restrictions, GW policy in this matter is forcing these restrictions. The use of the term "The Hobby" may be related, but by itself it is not restricting you in using non-GW bits. If Gw were to suddenly start using he term "wargaming" tomorrow, you still wouldn't be allowed to use non-GW mini's in GW shops, unless they change the policy. ;)


Hahahahah. There are many, many more posts on this forum indicating a hope for the end of companies like Mantic, CHS etc than there are for GW to fall. You seem to be confusing those of us who predict the decline of GW for those who actually want it. These are two very different groups, the latter of which has little or no representation on this forum.

I must be going to every wrong thread on the forum then. I am not discussing posts relating to the decline of GW, (regardless wether they predict or want it) but posts randomly flinging mud at quite trivial issues. If anything throw mud at finecast/crap/cash qualitycontrol, australian embargo's, the closed nature of the top of the company, the giant skullfetish andsoforth :shifty: . This very thread started on page 1 with the accusation that GW uses the term "The Hobby" as a means to justify bold lies.

shelfunit.
27-03-2012, 12:10
I must be going to every wrong thread on the forum then. I am not discussing posts relating to the decline of GW, (regardless wether they predict or want it) but posts randomly flinging mud at quite trivial issues. If anything throw mud at finecast/crap/cash qualitycontrol, australian embargo's, the closed nature of the top of the company, the giant skullfetish andsoforth :shifty: . This very thread started on page 1 with the accusation that GW uses the term "The Hobby" as a means to justify bold lies.

Indeed you must. Go back and read the first post in this thread...


Basically, Don't turn this into blind hating, because I think an honest, unbiased answer will be better, but...


Why do GW, and their staff, avoid the term "wargaming" (along with wargamer, and wargames) and instead refer to it as "the hobby" (and hobbiest)? It's not even like they're synonyms, hobby is a broad term refering to loads of stuff, so "the hobby" is completely inaccurate.

So yeah, it has been annoying me, I've heard people say it for years, only just realised why it bothers me. Any ideas? Any official information (10 commandments, staff training etc) that use this terminology?

...absolutely nothing there to justify your claim of "bold lies". It is this form of misinformation that turns every thread into "fan boi" Vs "Hater", don't propogate these myths TBO - it doesn't suit you.

The bearded one
27-03-2012, 12:29
Definately. Myths and deceit suit elves. But it's page 1 mate, not post 1 ;)

This is post 5:


It's their claim to uniqueness and way to justify bold lies.
There are many wargames.
But only one The Games Workshop plc Hobby.

EmperorNorton
27-03-2012, 12:32
Here's the kicker; Gw using the term "The Hobby" is not forcing these restrictions, GW policy in this matter is forcing these restrictions. The use of the term "The Hobby" may be related, but by itself it is not restricting you in using non-GW bits. If Gw were to suddenly start using he term "wargaming" tomorrow, you still wouldn't be allowed to use non-GW mini's in GW shops, unless they change the policy. ;)

I'd argue that by using the term "The Hobby" they are indeed trying to enforce these restrictions by implying that GW is all there is and all there needs to be. It's a form of neuro-linguistic programming and it seems to work remarkably well on some of GW's customers.
That said, it's not worse than what many other companies do and IMO nothing to get upset about. Any halfway competent consumer can look through corporate doublespeak.

The bearded one
27-03-2012, 12:34
plus there's always the interwebz, where information flows freely!*



* busy reading a book about the internet

shelfunit.
27-03-2012, 12:47
Definately. Myths and deceit suit elves. But it's page 1 mate, not post 1 ;)

This is post 5:

Touche - I read "started on page one" as meaning the first post - appologies.

The bearded one
27-03-2012, 12:50
Touche - I read "started on page one" as meaning the first post - appologies.

Accepted

* puts dwarf face on * now there's just the matter of.. compensation.

Verm1s
27-03-2012, 13:57
Sigh. It's like being on one of the more rabid Apple fansites.

Now there's an analogy! :D There was that documentary on the Beeb last year...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13416598
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00gw6ym

shelfunit.
27-03-2012, 14:43
Now there's an analogy! :D There was that documentary on the Beeb last year...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13416598
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00gw6ym

Replace "Apple" with "GW" and that article could have been written specifically for this thread.

The bearded one
27-03-2012, 18:17
GW staff is not as enthousiastic as that.

It'd be out of place if it were. They need to be wearing robes and muttering prayers to the emperor ;)

Inquisitor Kallus
27-03-2012, 21:08
"I have a friend, he plays sports.., do you play sports?"
"Not really, I only play football"
"Hey Johnny, this guy here plays sports, hey dude want to join us for some baseball and maybe some basketball later?"
"Uhm....sorry dude, I just play football...."

That guys a footballer not a sports enthusiast.... .



Just thought id add my own little twist on the silly SainsburysIkeafanboi thing.


On a more serious note, are some of you guys really that upset that some of us refer to ourselves as 'GW hobbyists' as opposed to 'wargamers'?

jack da greenskin
27-03-2012, 21:56
On a more serious note, are some of you guys really that upset that some of us refer to ourselves as 'GW hobbyists' as opposed to 'wargamers'?

On one hand, you can call yourself whatever you want, and I feel I shouldnt be bothered. On the other hand, I find the concept of a "GW hobbyist" quite silly :p I dont believe there's such a thing :L It's not a hobby, being a GW customer. Wargaming, scale miniature modelling and scale miniature painting are hobbies, my dad is big into cycling, but if he came home one day and called himself a "Halfords hobbyist", I'd laugh in his face. But you're welcome to call yourself, and your collection of hobbies whatever you want. And I think thats one of the reasons they call it the GW hobby, because its not really a single hobby, its a collection of different things.


On the flip side, Whilst you can call yourself whatever you want, I'd hate to be referred to as a "GW hobbyist" aside from finding the concept laughable, I am definitely not one, if they could exist. I champion mantic games more than most, and I love malifaux. Calling me a GW hobbyist, GW gamer, and even a "warhammer player" is something I genuinely find offensive, not in a personal "You're a X (idiot, racist, bigot) kind of way, but in a "How dare you assume you know what I do in my spare time, and how dare you disregard other companies in favour of a particular one." kind of way.

shelfunit.
27-03-2012, 21:59
"I have a friend, he plays sports.., do you play sports?"
"Not really, I only play football"
"Hey Johnny, this guy here plays sports, hey dude want to join us for some baseball and maybe some basketball later?"
"Uhm....sorry dude, I just play football...."

That guys a footballer not a sports enthusiast.... .

Just thought id add my own little twist on the silly SainsburysIkeafanboi thing.

That's a bit too general of an analogy - a more accurate one would be of someone supporting a club, but refusing to contemplate football outside that played by that particular club.


On a more serious note, are some of you guys really that upset that some of us refer to ourselves as 'GW hobbyists' as opposed to 'wargamers'?

It's less the self referrence and more the fact that when it is said it sounds like a robotic repetition of company policy.

A conversation like the one below is of the type that annoys me personally, and you can replace " play wargames" with "paint models", "read books" for a more encompassing example. These are not seperate hobbies, they are genres of the same hobby. You might like only reading 40K novels, but you still "read books", just a specific genre.

"You play wargames?"

"No, I play GW games"

"GW games are wargames, right?"

"Yes"

Havock
27-03-2012, 22:15
Plenty of people around that answer "No, I play warhammer" if you ask them they play wargames. GW did, sort of succesfully, managed to create a different position for many. It's the most visible and biggest company in the business, to some, that is pretty much enough reason to stick there and label it their own.

The bearded one
28-03-2012, 01:25
"You play wargames?"

"No, I play GW games"

"GW games are wargames, right?"

"Yes"

Is a high elf deceitful ? Yes. Are all elves deceitful? well.. ye- okay, that comparison isn't holding up. Erhm.. how about this:

Is a horse an animal? Yes. Are all animals horses? no.
Do you like animals? no, I like horses. Horses are animals, right? Yes, but I only like horses, no other animals.

In short: An alternative answer to the initial question in your conversation would be; 'only warhammer'.

Crazy Harborc
28-03-2012, 01:40
Most (over 100) wargamers that I have known were just that wargamers. I've known that 100 for OVER 34 years. About half of them did play at least one GW system. As of now 2, that is two, of them still play a GW system, occasionally. I tried GW too, by the by.

The hobby is wargaming. If GW's suits want to pretend GW, it's products and customers are not part of Wargaming....THAT is GW's problem. My long time opponents and I are wargamers.;)
EDIT TIME
I did meet oh, 15 or so "wargamers" who came into the hobby by way of the now closed GW store in my area. 5 of them are now "officially" part of the hobby of wargaming....GW's loss IMHO.

Trasvi
28-03-2012, 03:29
Multiple reasons:
1) It pushes the idea that you are in to something unique, that can't be offered by other companies.
2) It pushes the idea that there are multiple ways to enjoy your hobby. If you're into wargaming, that implies gaming, whereas some people only paint. Its an all-encompassing term.
3) It attempts to avoid some of the more negative/geeky connotations about wargaming

Its very similar to what other companies do with their branding. The big one on my mind is Apple 'Do you have a Mac or a PC?' (where Macs are a subset of PC's). Their product is essentially the same as everyone else's, but by calling it something different (often and loudly) they hope to change the minds of their consumers.
GW is the entry into wargaming for a huge percentage of people, due to its visible presence on high street. For a large portion of my wargaming life, I didn't know that other companies existed. GW encourages that way of thinking by saying 'The Games Workshop Hobby' - because if someone is into the wider wargaming hobby, there are plenty of ways to get bigger bang for your buck.

6mmhero
28-03-2012, 04:32
O dear this is still going on.

I really don't see what the problem is whith GW marketing what they see as their version of the hobby.
It has no impact on most people who are complaining as by their own admissions don't exclusively buy, paint or game with gw products.
Gw offer a great service to New people getting into wargaming/painting as a one stop shop. Parents and adult "hobbyists" don't need to go to several different suppliers to be able either paint or play games.

Gw are not conspiring to keep customers in the dark about alternatives, it is simply down to not wanting to advertise competition. Most gamers and painters soon learn there is more put there. But and this may Wseem controversial but this comes from experience; not many people care for the alternatives out there.
In my gaming circle, most people think Mantic are cheap and cheerful but don't purchase any figures from ththem as they don't like the sculpts (undead being an exception). Malifaux is starting to be played a little more but is mainly as an excuse to buy some great sculpts to paint.

shelfunit.
28-03-2012, 07:39
Is a high elf deceitful ? Yes. Are all elves deceitful? well.. ye- okay, that comparison isn't holding up. Erhm.. how about this:

Is a horse an animal? Yes. Are all animals horses? no.
Do you like animals? no, I like horses. Horses are animals, right? Yes, but I only like horses, no other animals.

In short: An alternative answer to the initial question in your conversation would be; 'only warhammer'.

Unfortunately your "version" falls down with the fact that whilst all animals are not horses, all GW games are still wargames (if you are being charitable Bloodbowl may be said to cross that deffinition). Again it is a case of the counter examples being too diverse in their outlook. Like the footballing example above this - instead of saying you only like horses, not all animals a better analogy would be...

"you like horses?"

"No, I like brown horses"

"But brown horses are horses aren't they"

"Yes".

paddyalexander
28-03-2012, 07:53
I think what bothers me about gwPLC calling themselves "the hobby" is that they have a very high burnout rate on the young people they bring into the gwPLC "hobby". Many of these young people could have been nurtured into becoming long term wargamers (and customers of gwPLC) but instead these young people get milked for whatever they're worth for a short term gain, experience shody rules systems and overpriced minis, hobby supplies and paints then leave proberbly never coming back to wargaming, a hobby they were initialy interested in.

Orrinocco
28-03-2012, 08:30
"I have a friend, he plays sports.., do you play sports?"
"Not really, I only play football"
"Hey Johnny, this guy here plays sports, hey dude want to join us for some baseball and maybe some basketball later?"
"Uhm....sorry dude, I just play football...."

That guys a footballer not a sports enthusiast.... .



Just thought id add my own little twist on the silly SainsburysIkeafanboi thing.


On a more serious note, are some of you guys really that upset that some of us refer to ourselves as 'GW hobbyists' as opposed to 'wargamers'?

TO put in my 2p - your example could be easily reworded as

I have a friend, he likes football... do you like football
I like Melchester Rovers [bonus points for knowing who these are]
Hey Johnny, this guy here likes football. Hey dude, want to join us to talk about Manchester United and Liverpool?
Umm... sorry dude, I just like Melchester Rovers

Which seems a very silly way of limiting yourself within a wider context. Basically, neither side can win this argument as semantically you can rewrite everyones arguments to actually argue in favour of the other side

Verm1s
28-03-2012, 11:56
On the other hand, I find the concept of a "GW hobbyist" quite silly :p I dont believe there's such a thing :L It's not a hobby, being a GW customer. Wargaming, scale miniature modelling and scale miniature painting are hobbies, my dad is big into cycling, but if he came home one day and called himself a "Halfords hobbyist", I'd laugh in his face... On the flip side, Whilst you can call yourself whatever you want, I'd hate to be referred to as a "GW hobbyist" aside from finding the concept laughable...

QFT!

I'd laugh in your dad's face too. ;)


2) It pushes the idea that there are multiple ways to enjoy your hobby. If you're into wargaming, that implies gaming, whereas some people only paint. Its an all-encompassing term.

It can't encompass all. Those activities aren't GW's sole remit; they don't fall inside the GW bubble in a Venn diagram. And if you only take part in one aspect, why do you need an all-encompassing term? Especially one based on the name of a shop.

"I'm a Games Workshop hobbyist."

"Oh, so you play, like, Warhammer and stuff?"

"No! I only paint models."

"Oh right... so you're a model collector?"

"No! I'm a Games Workshop hobbyist!"

"Ooh...kayyy..."

It's been said before, but: if you adopt that term for yourself, what happens if you buy an AoW character to paint, or include a unit of Gamezone models in your army? What if you are - shock horror - interested (and broke) enough to glance at the Kings of War rules? If you enjoy painting minis rather than gaming, what gives you more in common with the person who only enjoys pushing their grey plastic/three-coloured/drybrushed army across the table, rather than someone who also enjoys painting Studio McVey/Hasslefree/Andrea models? Which could you have a better chat with?
Are you then still a GW hobbyist? Or does the concept of a 'GW hobby' collapse like a house of cards?


3) It attempts to avoid some of the more negative/geeky connotations about wargaming

"I'm into wargaming."

"I'm a Games Workshop hobbyist."

I dunno about the average non-wargamer off the street, but I know which one I'd associate more with unsettling fixations.

That's getting back to what Zerodemon and others mentioned, too. The 'GW hobby' is a term concocted to reassure potential new customers - i.e. noobs and kids (mostly nooby kids) - and keep a grip on them as long as possible. Whether you want to stick with one or more of GW's core three in your wargaming hobby is one thing; but with experience (including the acceptance of geekiness), and awareness of the much wider world of wargaming, I'm scratching my head why some still can't see through said term. Instead embracing this semi-cynical marketing ploy like some kind of badge of honour, as if sloughing money into GW's cash registers alone ensures membership of a special club that's set apart from other gamers and collectors.

What's up with that?


semantically you can rewrite everyones arguments to actually argue in favour of the other side

Yeah, but only one side makes sense. ;)

Hendarion
28-03-2012, 12:25
Which seems a very silly way of limiting yourself within a wider context.
I think it isn't in your right to tell others what is silly and what is not especially about the things they like or don't like.
Some random guy or friend can tell me lots of things about Mantic Games or whatever, I am not interested. Neither the games, nor the miniatures. Does that mean that I am silly or limit myself somehow? No, that just means that I like some things while I don't like others. I like tomatoes, that doesn't mean I have to like potatoes, no matter how close the names are or the fact that both are vegetables or fruits.

But thing is as always on Warseer. There are 2 different groups of people. While one misses to see the view of the other, the second misses to see the view of the first. So what? If they think they are wargamers, let them. If they think they are GW-Hobbyists, let them. Nobody should try to force anybody to be something he doesn't want to be. Simple as that.


Yeah, but only one side makes sense.
Whether it makes sense or not is not up to someone on the internet to decide on. You have to decide for yourself and stop blaming people for thinking different from you or forcing others to think the same as you do.

ELOF
28-03-2012, 12:34
A question arises from some of the point made in the thread...

Should GW be under investigation for monopolisation?

Hendarion
28-03-2012, 12:39
No, why? They produce miniatures and other companies do too. Same like Mercedes produces cars and other vendors do too. Or Apple. Or Intel. Or AMD. Or Procter & Gamble. Or...

ELOF
28-03-2012, 16:22
I don't think it fits the definition either now that I think about it, afterall a monopoly is about more than market share. I guess GW have a completely different business model to the other wargaming retailers simply because of the stores.

However the question wasn't complete baseless as I had just read that Games Workshop was investigated, and acted against, by the monopolies commission in the 90's. Though for which type of policies I have no idea. Does anyone know more?

The bearded one
28-03-2012, 17:07
I wouldn't know why. What does monopolisation entail? That you are actively creating a monopoly and/or forcing the small competitors out? GW does have stores while others do not, but it's not like GW is preventing others from establishing them. If anything other companies leach off GWs share of the market by picking up disgruntled GW customers, doing 'right' what GW does 'wrong', or creating alternatives/add-ons for GW kits.

selfconstrukt
28-03-2012, 17:28
So I like to collect Classic GW models, pre-slotta and early slotta, but mostly I like to paint and model. So would I be a wargamer as well even though I haven't played a game since 2000?

paddyalexander
28-03-2012, 22:04
I don't think it fits the definition either now that I think about it, afterall a monopoly is about more than market share. I guess GW have a completely different business model to the other wargaming retailers simply because of the stores.

However the question wasn't complete baseless as I had just read that Games Workshop was investigated, and acted against, by the monopolies commission in the 90's. Though for which type of policies I have no idea. Does anyone know more?

Back in the 90's gwPLC used to open up stores close to independants who had been selling gwPLC products and generating good sales. Suddenly the independants would have trouble getting in stock and have orders and new releases delayed. Seen this happen when the gwPLC Hobby Center opened in Dublin City Center on the same street (or one street over, memory is fuzzy & I've been hit in the head a lot) as the independant games store that was selling and promoting their products at the time.

Wouldn't be supprised if a number of them complained.

Spectrar Ghost
28-03-2012, 22:47
That's a story I've heard several times about different locales. I've heard accounts from the UK, Europe, and the US. It appears GW used trade accounts to test the waters for placement of company stores. Of course all anecdotal, but it appears to have a broad base in truth given the geographic distribution of reported incidents.

Black-Tooth
28-03-2012, 23:04
This is quite interesting to read as I've long disliked the term 'GW hobby/hobbiest' but couldn't put my finger on why.

I once went into a GW store and was asked; 'Are you going to do some hobby?' Haha, I don't even understand what that means.

Liber
29-03-2012, 00:24
I think it's because there is more than just the playing of the games involved in the hobby. There's construction, conversion, painting, sculpting, even writing that all go into the same pot. Personally, I rarely game, like REALLY rarely, but I love to convert, build and paint. So to call me a wargamer would be outright inaccurate.


Heh, the answer to the threads question was given on page 1...and yet continues for 6 pages of 'discussion'.

I hope you never change Warseer :rolleyes:


I'll go tell my friend who likes to build terrain, paint minis, and read Black Library books that he is a "wargamer" LOL.

Hendarion
29-03-2012, 05:52
I once went into a GW store and was asked; 'Are you going to do some hobby?' Haha, I don't even understand what that means.
He didn't mention what kind of hobby and I doubt you want to enter there just for fun, so you in fact of course wanted "to do some hobby". It is maybe badly expressed if you mean that, but you went there because of your hobby (however you finally call it).

Bassik
03-04-2012, 10:40
Oh my God.
all big companies do this sort of thing.
Games Workshop is not the devil, if you hate the game so much stop playing, and other cliché's that this threat desperatly needs.

Autumn Leaves
03-04-2012, 12:54
Parental disposable income for their kids is the key GW target market.
Some parents don't like the WAR aspect of WARgaming for their impressionable young offspring so to call it a 'hobby' is to give it a 'euphemistic softening'.
Promoting the model making and the painting helps with that approach as well.
I can remember parents getting upset that the motto for 40K was, "In the future there is only war!"
They considered it to be negative, bleak and uninspiring for their boys to be involved in.
Enjoying their 'hobby' is a much more user friendly and politically correct way into a parents wallet.

Erethor
03-04-2012, 19:27
Oh my God.
all big companies do this sort of thing.

What's your point? Are you suggesting that because other companies do something, that makes it okay for GW to? If their friends jumped off a bridge...


Games Workshop is not the devil, if you hate the game so much stop playing, and other cliché's that this threat desperatly needs.

I don't know that anyone is saying that GW is the devil, but it doesn't do the seller any good to pretend the competition doesn't exist. Instead, they're going to have to acknowledge the competitor's product and convince me that theirs is better.

And besides, I can disagree with GW's blindness and deceit, and still love the game. Just because somebody disagrees with the company's view, doesn't mean they disagree with the product. The problem is when I see a company being manipulative, it makes me reconsider buying anything from them.

The bearded one
04-04-2012, 02:01
What's your point? Are you suggesting that because other companies do something, that makes it okay for GW to? If their friends jumped off a bridge...

He means GW is not doing anything extreme or exceptional. If anything be mad at bussinespractices as a whole, not GW specifically.


I don't know that anyone is saying that GW is the devil, but it doesn't do the seller any good to pretend the competition doesn't exist. Instead, they're going to have to acknowledge the competitor's product and convince me that theirs is better.

And besides, I can disagree with GW's blindness and deceit, and still love the game. Just because somebody disagrees with the company's view, doesn't mean they disagree with the product. The problem is when I see a company being manipulative, it makes me reconsider buying anything from them.

GW using the term 'the hobby' instead of wargaming equals deceit and them being manipulative...? I also can't remember the last time Mcdonalds went "now the superduper burger, totally better than Burgerking's burgers, because our burger is really big!" Why should a company have to acknowledge and compare to a competitor? Drawing attention to competitors when you're the biggest player in the field, actually sounds like a silly way to do bussines.

Bassik
04-04-2012, 15:45
What's your point? Are you suggesting that because other companies do something, that makes it okay for GW to? If their friends jumped off a bridge...

If all the other companies made millions jumping off bridges, then the GW shareholders would surely demand GW to jump off a bridge too.
They're running a business, and if using words that sounds nice is their worst offence, then GW must be some kind of saint.

There's plenty to complain about (over and over and over and over...) but this? Really? You lot are just looking for things to complain about, aren't you?

Erethor
05-04-2012, 00:30
GW using the term 'the hobby' instead of wargaming equals deceit and them being manipulative...?

Office Depot:

4oz of Elmer's School Glue = $1.39

120ml of PVA Glue = $8.25

The same amount of the same product but marketed for "scenery making and miniature basing" with a 600% markup. How is this not deceitful or manipulative? Since when is intentionally screwing over the customers who don't know any better considered ethical? Good for the bottom line, sure, but don't pretend it's fair to your customers.

That's just one example of what I mean when GW has "deceitful" business practices.


I also can't remember the last time Mcdonalds went "now the superduper burger, totally better than Burgerking's burgers, because our burger is really big!" Why should a company have to acknowledge and compare to a competitor? Drawing attention to competitors when you're the biggest player in the field, actually sounds like a silly way to do bussines.

McDonalds will acknowledge they're a restaurant. They won't claim to be THE restaurant. You don't have to draw attention to your competitors, but don't pretend they don't exist. It looks amateur. It like they can't see past their own noses.

Erethor
05-04-2012, 00:47
There's plenty to complain about (over and over and over and over...) but this? Really?

If I step in a puddle, am I not allowed to complain about getting wet because it's a petty thing to whine over when world hunger is a much bigger issue?


You lot are just looking for things to complain about, aren't you?

Only if you're just looking for things to jump in and defend.

I disagree with how GW markets themselves. That includes their use of "the hobby" as a term. I don't hate their company, just what they're doing to it.

You disagree. Fine. But don't try and pretend that just because you don't care about what somebody is complaining about means that nobody else cares.

The bearded one
05-04-2012, 03:13
Office Depot:

4oz of Elmer's School Glue = $1.39

120ml of PVA Glue = $8.25

The same amount of the same product but marketed for "scenery making and miniature basing" with a 600% markup. How is this not deceitful or manipulative? Since when is intentionally screwing over the customers who don't know any better considered ethical? Good for the bottom line, sure, but don't pretend it's fair to your customers.

That's just one example of what I mean when GW has "deceitful" business practices.

Sure, it's a significant markup (but evidently not something isolated to GW seeing as we have a word dedicated to these situations in general) but what does this have to do with using the term 'the hobby'? If GW tomorrow started saying 'wargaming', would this difference in price disappear by default? No, it would not. It would disappear if GW changed it's pricing. Seperate your complaints and make the proper connections, because I doubt your argument is "GW is being manipulative because they're saying 'the hobby' which makes their stuff 6 times more expensive!"


If I step in a puddle, am I not allowed to complain about getting wet because it's a petty thing to whine over when world hunger is a much bigger issue?

At some point nitpicking at stuff becomes absurd. You're not denied to complain about getting wet because world hunger exists, but this is about GW issues, which are all related to eachother. It's a bit like looking at a carpileup on the freeway and complaining about that one wheel that's busted in that car on the bottom, instead of just complaining about the entire carpile. We've chosen a subject to complain about: GW bussinespractices. At least pick something marginally important/relevant out of that subject, instead of an insignificant fact to rant over.

A lot of the argument is now going to depend on how you view that term, 'the hobby'. Do you view it like:
- 'THE one and only hobby(tm)!' emphasising the 'THE' part as GW expressing they are the only one
- or like 'the hobby, meaning the GW hobby', as a way of referring to warhammer-related hobby, instead of referring to wargaming in general (or wanting to refer to reading and painting GW stuff, without necessarily gaming).
I just view it as the second. I sometimes say the/this hobby, in order to refer to playing/painting/reading warhammer. If you want to view/use the term as the first.. yeah, I see why you're having a problem with it. It reminds me of a theory someone on warseer made called Draigo's razor.

Also, it is preferred you use the editbutton to simply add more to your post, instead of doubleposting.