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Jupitor
23-03-2012, 14:53
Hi

Just played a game of hammer with a mate who plays ogres and a few things came up that I hadn't come across before
And I was hopeing some helpfull warseer people could help me out ( As there is a carton riding on the outcome)

OOO
SFB
OOH
OOO

Okay so there is a unit of ogres with a slaughter master, fire belly, battle standard,hero in it (see my awesome picture above)

Question 1 can the fire belly cast magic missiles (fireball) from his spot in the second rank to a target to the front of the unit ?

Question 2 Can the slaughter master charge out of the unit from the second rank to a enemy unit in the front arc of the unit of ogres ?

Question 3 Can the hero charge out of the unit from the third rank to a enemy unit that is in the flank arc of the unit of Ogers but in the front arc of the hero ?

Question 1 I thought yeah maybe as you can shoot from the second rank

Question 2 I thought No your charging through one of you own units not leaving from the front rank

Question 3 I thought No your charging through one of your own units not leaving the front rank, plus being in the third rank you would not have line of sight to anything

Many thanks for your helpful answers

Hell Storm
23-03-2012, 17:04
Q1: Yes you can cast spells just fine.
Q2&3: Yes it is fine. It says you may charge out of a unit. It doesn't give any other restrictions. Also models in the 2nd and further ranks do have line of sight as if they were in the front rank.

Slowpoke
23-03-2012, 17:38
Yes to all, but you also have to put your heroes in the front row of the regiment. So tactically positioning your Slaughtermaster, Firebelly and Bsb in the second rank behind the normal ogres isn't allowed.

PurpleSun
23-03-2012, 17:45
Yes to all, but you also have to put your heroes in the front row of the regiment. So tactically positioning your Slaughtermaster, Firebelly and Bsb in the second rank behind the normal ogres isn't allowed.

I think it was presumed that he had a standard, bellower, and champion in the front rank.

Hell Storm
23-03-2012, 18:36
Yes to all, but you also have to put your heroes in the front row of the regiment.

Just curious but why do you think that you can't charge if you're not in the front rank? From the wording in the BRB, I don't see any restrictions from charging out of the back rank.

Slowpoke
23-03-2012, 19:07
What I meant was that it isn't restricted but in the example above he has regular ogres in the front rank so by that I mean that the characters can't be in the second rank in the first place. You must always put the character models in the front rank and those that won't fit in the front rank can be put to the second rank.

Ninja'd! Just noticed that Purple Sun pointed out that the command group must be in the front rank so in that case its fine to put the characters in the second rank. Sorry :)

SanDiegoSurrealist
23-03-2012, 19:14
Command always goes in the front rank, so if unit is only 3 wide and has full command the characters would be relegated to the second rank. When engaged in combat they "Make Way" to the front rank and displace the command back to the second rank.
Yes, it is cheeky, but every Ogre player I have played against since 8th has played with that in one way or another.

Iraf
23-03-2012, 19:25
If you're charging from the 2nd rank remember to measure from the model charging out, and in the case of ogres, that means an added 1-2 inches.

Jupitor
23-03-2012, 23:49
Thanks for the replies and yes the front three models were command models

Looks like I am owning my mate a lot of beer lol

Just one thing Don't you need to have Los to charge and if your in third plus ranks back then your own models would block this . Example you can only shoot with two ranks not the third or more

AMWOOD co
24-03-2012, 02:45
Now, I'd like to put an arguement forward for why you cannot charge out of a unit from the second rank. Simply put, the models in the front rank are an intervening obstacle and thus the charge cannot be completed.

Lord Inquisitor
24-03-2012, 03:04
Q: Can a character ‘move through’ a unit he has joined when he leaves it (i.e. can he leave through the side or rear of the unit, measuring the move from his starting position)? (p101)
A: Yes.

I don't think models in the unit a character leaves would be treated differently for a charge.

Hell Storm
24-03-2012, 11:41
Just one thing Don't you need to have Los to charge and if your in third plus ranks back then your own models would block this . Example you can only shoot with two ranks not the third or more

The people in front don't block line of sight. Look at volley fire. Models in the 3+ rank can fire and to fire you must have TLoS. There is almost no way you could have TLoS but you're still allowed to fire. I don't think the BRB mentions this but it is assumed that the whole unit has a single LoS measured from the front rank that everyone uses.

Jupitor
24-03-2012, 12:45
Okay so you use the units LOS if you are in the third rank or more cheers
What I still don't get is how you can charge out of the side of the unit to an enemy that is not in the units front arc but is in the characters front arc

ooo
sfb M
ooh
ooo

The M in this instant being my unit .. So the h can charge from the third rank because I am in his front arc even if I am not in the units front arc and LOS dosent apply cause he is unaffected by his own unit ??

Note I am not trying to difficult :) I am just trying to get my head around the whole thing cause it will come up a lot in my gaming group

Thanks

Hell Storm
24-03-2012, 15:24
No he can't charge M. The reason being the unit can't see it because it is in the flank.

Lord Inquisitor
24-03-2012, 15:42
No he can't charge M. The reason being the unit can't see it because it is in the flank.

But it's in the character's charge arc. I think he can but the rules aren't super clear if you use the character's arc or the unit's. I would assume character's.

I'm even less sure if a character can draw Los through the models in front. They can for shooting but this isn't shooting.

Hell Storm
24-03-2012, 16:43
You are correct that the rules aren't clear. I was just going off what seamed to be the most clear interpretation in my opinion.

T10
25-03-2012, 13:14
There are two distinct alternatives:

1. The character always uses the unit's forward arc and line of sight.
2. The character only ever uses his own forward arc and line of sight.

The rules are not at all specific, but I am inclined towards the former: It seems to level the playing field that the players heed the UNITS on the battle field and don't need to worry about the odd character in the back of the unit.

BEEGfrog
27-03-2012, 21:44
This is another example of why TLOS is such a crap mechanic.

The shooting rules "assume" you can't see through two ranks but can see through one rank, although TLOS says you should be getting your eye next to the model's head to see what it can actually see.

So if you follow the shooting sight assumptions rather tnan TLOS then the characters in 2nd rank can charge out as they have LOS but in 3rd or further back can only charge if their LOS to target passes through no more than one rank of the unit.

T10
28-03-2012, 05:10
Actually, for shooting purposes only the first rank gets to shoot "as normal". The next ranks that are allowed to shoot are required to use the forward arc and line of sight of the first-rank model in front of them: Their actual line of sight doesn't come into play as far as shooting is concerned.

Those ranks that don't get to shoot are just flat-out denied the opportunity because they are not in the first two ranks: Their line-of-sight and forward arc don't come into play.

-T10