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ArtificerArmour
25-03-2012, 07:05
Here's an interesting one that came up in my game the other day.

My big beastie unit with beast banner got withering'd, reducing their strength by 3.

Now, a Gor is base St 3. The beast banner "grants the bearer and his unit +1 strength".

Does the beast banner give the unit a constant upgrade of strength 4? or does it add the their current strength at the time of use?

As they were in combat with T3 bloodletters, it was significant as they were striking at either strength 1 or strength 2, meaning6s or 5s.

Both FAQs were useless in helping us work it out so we d6'd it.

MOMUS
25-03-2012, 07:55
Im inclined to say that they would be strength 2 as the withering would take them down to 1 min (cannot go below 1) and then you would add the +1S from the banner. The spell affects the base unit strength, by that i mean the profile stat-line.

Hell Storm
25-03-2012, 13:50
The spell never says base Str. You would be Str 1 because you are normally 3 but the banner gives you +1 at all times. So the unit is Str 4 when the spell is cast which, when reduced by 3, would give you a total of 1.

Brotheroracle
25-03-2012, 15:14
I agree with Hell.

T10
25-03-2012, 16:48
Regardless of the order in which you apply the modifiers, the total modifier is -2, and this does not reduce the Strength characteristic 3 to less than the minimum 1 allowed.

decker_cky
25-03-2012, 17:13
When the spell is cast, the gors are S4 so -3 can apply, dropping them to S1.

I believe that if the spell was on the gors, and the BSB left the unit, then rejoined the unit, they'd be S2.

geldedgoat
25-03-2012, 17:57
When the spell is cast, the gors are S4 so -3 can apply, dropping them to S1.

I believe that if the spell was on the gors, and the BSB left the unit, then rejoined the unit, they'd be S2.

Hmmm... I think I like the sound of this one.

T10
25-03-2012, 18:45
Oh, really? So if the banner leaves the unit then the unit dies? Obviously not, since spells cannot bring characteristics to below 1. But if the banner later rejoins the unit while it is subject to the same spell (and same modifier) then it's suddenly back up to S2?

I can't say I agree.

Hell Storm
25-03-2012, 18:56
I agree with T10. It is a penalty that sticks around. So think of it as -3 (min 1), that recalculates everytime a new bonus or penalty is applied. So 3+1 is the normal Stat. Then a -3 is applied, which is a 1. If the banner leaves, then the min 1 will kick in and still be at 1. When the banner joins the whole Stat is calculated again. 3+1-3 is still a 1.

Iraf
25-03-2012, 19:01
I agree with both T10 and Hell Storm's interpretation.

geldedgoat
25-03-2012, 19:23
Oh, really? So if the banner leaves the unit then the unit dies? Obviously not, since spells cannot bring characterristics to below 1.

Some spells can (Curse of the Leper). But this one specifies a minimum, so no, the unit wouldn't die.


But if the banner later rejoins the unit while it is subject to the same spell (and same modifier) then it's sudden,y back up to S2?

Yeah, this does sound kinda silly. I hadn't considered what would happen if the BSB left and then rejoined... especially since Withering is a remains in play spell (I forgot it was - had to look that up again).

Gaargod
25-03-2012, 19:38
Surely it depends on which order the modifiers are applied? Which unfortunately, as there's nothing specifying, relies on whose turn it is? I know that's annoying, but there's nothing to say whether the modifiers are applied consecutively or concurrently.

For example, curse of the leper is applied to a unit, taking them to S2. Then withering is cast, with a roll of -3S. Withering has a minimum strength left of 1, the curse doesn't. If you apply it consecutively, which is most natural, they will only drop to S1 (curse to S2, withering -3 but to a min). If concurrently, presumably withering takes them to S1 then curse finishes them off?

What if they have the beast banner too? Could end up in a weird situation there. I don't know, the interpretation that it's a total modifier recalculated every time something's added or taken away seems reasonable, but because curse doesn't have a minimum strength (and thus kills the unit), you could end up in odd situations where the only difference that spell makes if it's cast is whether or not the unit's strength drops below 1.

Lord Inquisitor
25-03-2012, 19:55
I would have said 3+1-3=1.

However I would say bestigor under the effect of -3S would be S1 then S3 from the great weapons, and I don't have a good reason why these two would be treated differently. Because great weapons are a temporary bonus?

thesoundofmusica
25-03-2012, 22:32
I would have said 3+1-3=1.

However I would say bestigor under the effect of -3S would be S1 then S3 from the great weapons, and I don't have a good reason why these two would be treated differently. Because great weapons are a temporary bonus?

Isnt that a bad example? They'd be S3 regardless wouldnt they?

S4 - S3 + S2 = S3

S4 + S2 - S3 = S3

Lord Inquisitor
25-03-2012, 23:12
LOL forgot bestigor are base S4, whoops. Let's say Empire Greatswords instead. :o

a18no
26-03-2012, 01:52
I would say: the player whose turn it is choose the order.

If it was 2 spells, I think the rules says you apply in the order they are cast. Since in the situation, we talk about is spells and other effect (magic banner), I would rule it differently.

Sexiest_hero
26-03-2012, 03:39
Str 1 I'm sure.

thesoundofmusica
26-03-2012, 07:17
Why does it have to depend on which order modifiers are added? To me the logical thing would be to simply add up the modifiers and then apply the result. Is there anything in the rulebook about that? Would take away most doubt and silly things like "whos turn is it".

hamsterwheel
26-03-2012, 13:22
I think I agree with T10 from reading his first explanation. Modifiers should add together before being applied and the +1 to Strength from the banner is a modifier, it doesn't affect the base stat.

Von Wibble
26-03-2012, 21:30
Why does it have to depend on which order modifiers are added? To me the logical thing would be to simply add up the modifiers and then apply the result. Is there anything in the rulebook about that? Would take away most doubt and silly things like "whos turn is it".

I have to agree with this. But who said logic should apply in the minds of the game designers?

Lord Inquisitor
26-03-2012, 23:54
I think I agree with T10 from reading his first explanation. Modifiers should add together before being applied and the +1 to Strength from the banner is a modifier, it doesn't affect the base stat.

So what Strength are my Greatswords (S3 with great weapons) under the effect of -3S spell when they attack in close combat?

thesoundofmusica
27-03-2012, 05:49
I would say S2

Athlan na Dyr
27-03-2012, 06:09
I'd say S3, as great weapons don't affect the unit stat.
Therefore, enfeebling (not withering:shifty:) takes the greatswords strength from 3 to 1 (the minimum) as enfeebling affects the stat.
Then Great Weapons activate during the combat phase, taking the unit to strength 3.

My reasoning for this is if they became S2, then it implies that the presence of a Great Weapon modifies their strength at all times (i.e. modifies basic stats, like a magic banner does) and hence, using this logic, they would have a 'counts as' S5 vs. dwellers.
This is hardly reasonable, hence why I'm leaning towards S3
That said, it only works if you contend that the enfeebling (and withering) apply on a stat level (which, if they sync with the curse of the leper, then they do)

sulla
27-03-2012, 06:31
I would say S2I'd say 3. Enfeebling is in effect the whole time the spell effects the enemy. That takes them down to s1. The great weapons only add a bonus in combat. It boosts them back up to s3. You don't recalculate after the weapons bonus is added IMO.

Ninja'd above...;)

thesoundofmusica
27-03-2012, 07:49
Ah ofc, agreed.

Edit: Actually, I dont see why in the particular instance of fighting in CC, you couldnt add up the modifiers and then apply the result just as others (and myself) suggested above? In the case of the spells you mentioned, you would apply only the applicable (is relevant a better word?) modifiers anyways... meaning no +2S from twohanders obviously.

Lord Inquisitor
27-03-2012, 12:52
S3 was my gut reaction too but I'm not sure it is consistent. Surely the -3 applies all the time and you apply as applicable?

What about ... The potion of strength? That doesn't apply "all the time"?

hamsterwheel
27-03-2012, 13:28
I actually disagree with the notion that modifiers can't be recalculated. For some odd reason they are in every close combat phase that involves a weapon that adds a modifier yet the community believes that they should never be recalculated because it adds too much complication to the game. With Lord's example, what's wrong with S1 during all phases but the combat phase and then S2 during the combat phase? What???! the modifier from the spell changed, well you were already having to calculate the +2 strength from the GW so you're already having to recalculate the Strength.